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I have always played single faction armies. Since 5th edition I never even took allies. Currently I'm looking to use Lias issodom a chapter master of the Raptors legion. They are a successor chapter and he is a FW unit. Currently they don't have their own chapter tactics. I wanted to know how I can use issodon and a Raven guard army. I'm assuming that due to keywords issodon can only use his ability on raptor units and only ravenguard units benefit from the chapter tactic. I'm having trouble understanding how to make a soup list from these two chapters where issodon is the warlord. I use BattleScribe to make my lists. Anyone have an example of how a list could be made of these two and how they interact with each other?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Example I came up with.

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [51 PL, 801pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 136pts]: Storm shield, The Shield Eternal, Thunder hammer, Twin boltgun

Lias Issodon [10 PL, 195pts]

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Sternguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 90pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Special issue boltgun

Sternguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 90pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Special issue boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [11 PL, 98pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

++ Total: [61 PL, 996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Give all the Marines the Raptors chapter keyword. You can then use any generic Space Marine chapter tactics and relics from the Codex. I don't have the Space Marine Codex, but the Blood Angels one has a line about Successor chapters, and says you can still use the BA chapter tactics and stratagems but not any named Special Characters. I imagine it's the same for successors in the "main" codex.

So they would have the raptor and Raven guard keyword but could only use the raptor special character?

They wouldn't have the Raven Guard keyword.

They would have <Raptors>

The Raptors, as a chapter without a trait, use the trait most suited to their fighting style, so all <Raptor> units would benefit from the Ravenguard Chapter Tactics.

However, they are not <Raven Guard> so they couldn't take Shrike without losing their tactic, and can't benefit from <Raven Guard> Stragtems or auras.

Ok I understand now. No strats either. Even still the chapter tactic still suits the raptors well and issodon's ability is similar to the Raven guard strategem just without primaris.

Delete

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
They wouldn't have the Raven Guard keyword.

They would have <Raptors>

The Raptors, as a chapter without a trait, use the trait most suited to their fighting style, so all <Raptor> units would benefit from the Ravenguard Chapter Tactics.

However, they are not <Raven Guard> so they couldn't take Shrike without losing their tactic, and can't benefit from <Raven Guard> Stragtems or auras.

No, this is wrong. It's based on who you are a successor chapter to, not anything to do with being suited to a fighting style. They can also use the stratagems. From Codex Space Marines:

Page 195 "Chapter Tactics"
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the IMPERIAL FISTS.

Page 196 "Stratagems"
If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so you can use the Bolter Drill Stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FISTS INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FISTS unit

The Raptors are a known successor of Raven Guard so they get the -1 and access to SftS Stratagem by being a pure Raptor detachment.

And even more to the point: Based on what the player writes down to his army list.

Honestly, just totally ignore the successor chapter limitations. They are pointless and unfluffy and you really can just say to your friends 'this is what I'm doing, let's play' and it really really should not matter.

The successor chapter rules only take things away from the player and for no discernable reason. Mind you, most space marine strats and traits suck anyways.

 darkcloak wrote:
Honestly, just totally ignore the successor chapter limitations. They are pointless and unfluffy and you really can just say to your friends 'this is what I'm doing, let's play' and it really really should not matter.

The successor chapter rules only take things away from the player and for no discernable reason. Mind you, most space marine strats and traits suck anyways.

Should I also be able to ignore any other rules I don't like? I find it annoying that IG veterans are now elites instead of troops and lost their access to carapace armor, can I just change tell everyone I play that my veterans are now troops and deal with it?

 Peregrine wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Honestly, just totally ignore the successor chapter limitations. They are pointless and unfluffy and you really can just say to your friends 'this is what I'm doing, let's play' and it really really should not matter.

The successor chapter rules only take things away from the player and for no discernable reason. Mind you, most space marine strats and traits suck anyways.

Should I also be able to ignore any other rules I don't like? I find it annoying that IG veterans are now elites instead of troops and lost their access to carapace armor, can I just change tell everyone I play that my veterans are now troops and deal with it?

Well if you wanna make stupid examples that stretch the premise past its original meaning that's not really my problem. But yeah, it's a game so... Go ahead and ignore whatever rules you want.

Why should I be punished for not wanting to paint my dollies blue?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literally rules based on your paint scheme. fething stupid.

You guys are talking about two completely different things I'm preeeeetty sure.

 darkcloak wrote:
Honestly, just totally ignore the successor chapter limitations. They are pointless and unfluffy and you really can just say to your friends 'this is what I'm doing, let's play' and it really really should not matter...

...Or you could be civilized/polite about it and say to your opponent "I'd like to play this [describe variation], would that be okay with you?" rather than going straight into "this is what I'm doing, deal with it".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Honestly, just totally ignore the successor chapter limitations. They are pointless and unfluffy and you really can just say to your friends 'this is what I'm doing, let's play' and it really really should not matter...

...Or you could be civilized/polite about it and say to your opponent "I'd like to play this [describe variation], would that be okay with you?" rather than going straight into "this is what I'm doing, deal with it".

If I were polite and civil to my friends they would lock me up as an imposter! Seriously, if someone wanted to really make a deal out of you using a warlord trait you technically weren't allowed to because you didn't paint your dudes blue, then pack your gak and find another game cuz that is not gonna be a fun time.

Sigh,or ya know, politely explain why you don't want to play that person and diplomatically exit the game store...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But none of this really matters here because Issodon has his own WL trait. Now if the OP wanted to run his army without Lias every once in awhile then his generic captain would be stuck with generic traits. However if he was actually just playing RG that same Captain could use the RG traits and strats. What's the difference? Paint.

So what? If I want to use the rules the way I want I'm to build and paint several Marine armies? No, haha. I'm pretty hard pressed to build and paint even one marine army!

 darkcloak wrote:
Literally rules based on your paint scheme. fething stupid.

No it isn't. It's rules based on other rules. If you want to have a RAPTORS army with Lias Issodon then you don't have the RAVEN GUARD keyword. If you want to paint your space marines yellow and use the ULTRAMARINES keyword for all purposes (chapter tactics, unique characters, stratagems, relics) then that's fine.

 Peregrine wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Honestly, just totally ignore the successor chapter limitations. They are pointless and unfluffy and you really can just say to your friends 'this is what I'm doing, let's play' and it really really should not matter.

The successor chapter rules only take things away from the player and for no discernable reason. Mind you, most space marine strats and traits suck anyways.

Should I also be able to ignore any other rules I don't like? I find it annoying that IG veterans are now elites instead of troops and lost their access to carapace armor, can I just change tell everyone I play that my veterans are now troops and deal with it?

Don't be one of them guys...

He doesn't even play 40k, just likes to trash it. Not sure why I let him rustle my jimmies.

That's the whole damn point. I can paint my marines yellow and say they're Ultramarines and play with the rules I want. But if I painted em yellow and said these guys are the Sillypants Chapter of the Ultramarines lineage... I get less rules to play with?

So if it's that easy to circumvent the successor chapter rule, why does it even exist????

Moar to the point! Liass Issodon doesn't give a feth about RG warlord trait, he has his own! But, thanks to GW he is left with a bunch of rather crappy strats. Even more to the point all the SM strats suck major balls and the only decent thing about SM is their chapter tactics. Which by the way, isn't army wide like every other faction. So really, is the OP going to break the game, the universe and Beverly Hills by giving a FW character chapter tactics based on his gene seed?

No. It's not.

 darkcloak wrote:
That's the whole damn point. I can paint my marines yellow and say they're Ultramarines and play with the rules I want. But if I painted em yellow and said these guys are the Sillypants Chapter of the Ultramarines lineage... I get less rules to play with?

The only thing you lose access to is the Chapter Specific relic so I mean yeah I guess you're technically correct but not in an impactful way.

Yep, generally speaking if you're a successor chapter you'd lose:

1) Warlord Trait specific to that chapter...as you're not that chapter.

2) A relic or two which are specific to that chapter, again, you're not that chapter.

3) Stratagems specific to that chapter.

So you "lose" maybe 4-5 things, all of which have alternatives available in the codex. Not a big deal. My Eldar use the Biel-Tan Craftworld trait, but I do not make use of the Biel-Tan fancy warlord traits, stratagems, or any relics which apply directly to Biel-Tan. Likewise I play my CSM as Renegades which have a trait, but are other gak on when it comes to stratagems/warlord fancy stuff/relics...not a huge deal.

I guess I don't understand why people are getting really hung up on losing access to a small handful of things in a codex filled with options.

 Elbows wrote:
Yep, generally speaking if you're a successor chapter you'd lose:

1) Warlord Trait specific to that chapter...as you're not that chapter.

2) A relic or two which are specific to that chapter, again, you're not that chapter.

3) Stratagems specific to that chapter.

So you "lose" maybe 4-5 things, all of which have alternatives available in the codex. Not a big deal. My Eldar use the Biel-Tan Craftworld trait, but I do not make use of the Biel-Tan fancy warlord traits, stratagems, or any relics which apply directly to Biel-Tan. Likewise I play my CSM as Renegades which have a trait, but are other gak on when it comes to stratagems/warlord fancy stuff/relics...not a huge deal.

I guess I don't understand why people are getting really hung up on losing access to a small handful of things in a codex filled with options.

You don't lose stratagems - it specifically states to the counter.

See, so there's a benefit to even being a successor chapter then. There's no such ruling for things like Craftworlds, and various other "army" traits.

Audustum wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
They wouldn't have the Raven Guard keyword.

They would have <Raptors>

The Raptors, as a chapter without a trait, use the trait most suited to their fighting style, so all <Raptor> units would benefit from the Ravenguard Chapter Tactics.

However, they are not <Raven Guard> so they couldn't take Shrike without losing their tactic, and can't benefit from <Raven Guard> Stragtems or auras.

No, this is wrong. It's based on who you are a successor chapter to, not anything to do with being suited to a fighting style. They can also use the stratagems. From Codex Space Marines:

Page 195 "Chapter Tactics"
If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, use the Chapter Tactic of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so should use the Chapter Tactic of the IMPERIAL FISTS.

Page 196 "Stratagems"
If your Chapter does not have any associated Stratagems, you can use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter. For example, CRIMSON FISTS are a successor Chapter of the IMPERIAL FISTS, so you can use the Bolter Drill Stratagem to affect a CRIMSON FISTS INFANTRY unit just as if were an IMPERIAL FISTS unit

The Raptors are a known successor of Raven Guard so they get the -1 and access to SftS Stratagem by being a pure Raptor detachment.

It also says if you don't know who the successor chapter is, you can chose what you like.

Certainly before this topic came up, I had no idea whom the Raptors were a successor chapter of, and I didn't care much. I can't imagine why anyone else would want to if it locks their playstyle into something specific, either.

Technically the successor chapters with no known parent legion could choose their Chapter Tactic and the Stratagems from different chapters. Both just say 'choose one best suited for their fighting style' but nothing in the rules says I have to choose the same in both of these two separate occasions. What if the White Scars tactic reflects best my chapter's fighting style, as does the Raven Guard stratagem?

No one plays it like that, but technically it is allowed, and being able to mix and match would actually be a nice boon for custom chapters for losing the relics, special characters and warlord traits. (Or it would be, If Raven Guard wouldn't have both the obviously best tactic and the best stratagem.)