Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I'm hoping to see some help for the Marine statline in general. It doesn't help much to tweak individual units when pretty much every base MeQ is lackluster unless it has a huge number of special rules. Str 4, T4, 3+, 1A, and Str 4 shooting models that cost in the low to mid teens in points are pretty much never worth using across the board. This is a huge problem, because it covers the majority of Marine infantry.

Tac Marines, Assault Marines, Bikers, Chaos Marines, Raptors, etc are all not worth using. We see that marines and Chaos alike are using swarm +elites and heavies for their armies, usually as part of a soup list. More elite versions of these units like Cult Marines are generally a bit better off, but you still cannot make the core of your army based around them and end up with enough models on the board to be useful.

The MeQ statline has depreciated since previous editions due to the changes in AP and offensive power. A 3+ armor save is just not what it used to be in the new AP system. And on top of that, they got shafted in that many armies weapons moved to an equivalent AP in the new system, but basic bolters did not. They used to be AP 5, which ignored 5+ and 6+ saves, meaning basic bolter fire was an effective anti hoard weapon. Now they are AP 0, which means they lost a significant amount of offensive power against common units like guardsmen and boyz. Aura stacking helps bring their firepower level back, but other armies also got that.

I would argue that the basic MeQ statline is the hardest hit by a large amount of 8th's changes. To summarize:

1) AP changes made 3+ less strong

2) Bolters effectively losing AP made them so inefficient they are barely worth rolling

3) Lack of ability to lock foes in combat hurt marine units like assault marines that are proportionally lower damage but higher survivability compared to other melee units

4) Changes to template and blast weapons hit marines harder than other armies because they relied on them more to cover more army roles.

5) The combination of bolters becoming proportionally weaker and flamers/frag missiles becoming weaker, less reliable, and more expensive totally destroyed the ability to normal marine units to provide anti-swarm.

6) The new vehicle wound system hits marines hardest because they relied on low shot high damage weapons like Meltas for their anti tank. Meltas have gone up in price, and lost their ability to 1 shot vehicles, which has hugely decreased the potential of normal marine infantry to counter armor.

7) Power fist changes have hurt marines more than other races, as the power fist sergeant was often half of a squads melee damage output, a solid tank/monster deterrent, and the majority of an army's anti-character power. I'm not sad that this changed because it was silly, but it's still left them overall weaker.

8) In the past, marine infantry relied on a good armor save to out attrition their opponents. But now the offensive power of everyone has increased considerably, so they've lost their ability to take in damage without getting wiped out early. The changes to cover have also hurt them, but not necessarily more than other races.

9) The loss of mechanized lists due to transport changes has hurt too. You can no longer move, disembark, and shoot, which was a major trick of Tacs and CSM. And even if you could, you wouldn't want to as you no longer have the durability to receive a charge and whittle down a unit, or hold until reinforcements come. And drop pods can no longer come in close enough for short range melta shots, and as mentioned above those aren't what they used to be. And transports now cost an arm and a leg.

10) Loss of Pistol+bolter+ccw on many marine units (especially CSM)

11) They did get a couple points cheaper overall, but it's really not enough to help.

Even elite marines units just aren't that great. Berzerkers may be the exception because their special rule and weapons are so phenomenal. But consider the other cult troops: Plague marines give you a lot for their points, but their firepower is so low that it just doesn't matter. So we see poxwalker spam instead. Noise marines are cool and also have some nasty rules and guns, but the points add up really fast. If you try to build an army using more than a couple 5 man objective holding squads, you just won't have enough other stuff. And they die easily. And Rubrics, even with their new powers, just don't have enough firepower. And even with All is Dust, they are proportionally less survivable than most swarm infantry, point for point. These units are not bad in a vacuum (except maybe rubrics), and seem like what we should be forming our armies around. But it just doesn't work.

Primaris marines are more on the right track. If all MeQs had just been given that statline, things would be much different (except plasma spam would still pwn them.) The extra melee attack, extra ap point on bolt weapons, and extra wound really help. But we still don't see armies of primaris the way we saw armies of regular MeQs back in, say, 5th (my main point of comparison as I played it most.) Because even the extra stats at only a few extra points per model doesn't make the units worth using over swarm units + elites and heavy support. The exception may be Blood Angels, because they can stack enough buffs to make Primaris versatile, durable, and efficient in both shooting and melee.

Note I'm not saying that Marines and Chaos are weak overall. Their elite and soup lists are doing fine. But the standard marine infantry has gotten shafted by this edition and it needs help. But there's no easy fix either because the problems go beyond a small points change. It's the entire design philosophy of 8th. And it effect so many units that aren't united by keywords or common names that it'd be hard to change that many overall.

Some combination of the following would help, applied to everyone or only to marines (to represent their greater skill, bigger weapons, etc). I'm trying to keep away from all out statline changes.

A) Move all bolter weapons an AP lower for marines. Standard becomes AP -1, intercessor one becomes -2, heavy bolter -2, etc. This will also help their vehicles out. But it won't break currently good units like assault cannon razorbacks.

B) Make flamer/other former template weapons more reliable. Instead of d6 shots, let them be 3+d3, or an amount based on the size of the attacking unit.

C) Increase the power of pretty much all Chapter traits except Blood Angels and Death Guard to help infantry.

D) Bring back Bolter+Bolt Pistol+CCW for Tacs and CSM and their elite variants

E) Give Jump Pack troops the ability to lock enemies in close combat, or perhaps follow them if they fall back (can be based on leadership check.)

F) Award extra CP for detachments of basic MeQs

All that wishlisting aside, I doubt they'll touch this. Which means this is the edition of Xenos and Soup!

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I'm hoping to see some help for the Marine statline in general. It doesn't help much to tweak individual units when pretty much every base MeQ is lackluster unless it has a huge number of special rules. Str 4, T4, 3+, 1A, and Str 4 shooting models that cost in the low to mid teens in points are pretty much never worth using across the board. This is a huge problem, because it covers the majority of Marine infantry.

Tac Marines, Assault Marines, Bikers, Chaos Marines, Raptors, etc are all not worth using. We see that marines and Chaos alike are using swarm +elites and heavies for their armies, usually as part of a soup list. More elite versions of these units like Cult Marines are generally a bit better off, but you still cannot make the core of your army based around them and end up with enough models on the board to be useful.

The MeQ statline has depreciated since previous editions due to the changes in AP and offensive power. A 3+ armor save is just not what it used to be in the new AP system. And on top of that, they got shafted in that many armies weapons moved to an equivalent AP in the new system, but basic bolters did not. They used to be AP 5, which ignored 5+ and 6+ saves, meaning basic bolter fire was an effective anti hoard weapon. Now they are AP 0, which means they lost a significant amount of offensive power against common units like guardsmen and boyz. Aura stacking helps bring their firepower level back, but other armies also got that.

I would argue that the basic MeQ statline is the hardest hit by a large amount of 8th's changes. To summarize:

1) AP changes made 3+ less strong

2) Bolters effectively losing AP made them so inefficient they are barely worth rolling

3) Lack of ability to lock foes in combat hurt marine units like assault marines that are proportionally lower damage but higher survivability compared to other melee units

4) Changes to template and blast weapons hit marines harder than other armies because they relied on them more to cover more army roles.

5) The combination of bolters becoming proportionally weaker and flamers/frag missiles becoming weaker, less reliable, and more expensive totally destroyed the ability to normal marine units to provide anti-swarm.

6) The new vehicle wound system hits marines hardest because they relied on low shot high damage weapons like Meltas for their anti tank. Meltas have gone up in price, and lost their ability to 1 shot vehicles, which has hugely decreased the potential of normal marine infantry to counter armor.

7) Power fist changes have hurt marines more than other races, as the power fist sergeant was often half of a squads melee damage output, a solid tank/monster deterrent, and the majority of an army's anti-character power. I'm not sad that this changed because it was silly, but it's still left them overall weaker.

8) In the past, marine infantry relied on a good armor save to out attrition their opponents. But now the offensive power of everyone has increased considerably, so they've lost their ability to take in damage without getting wiped out early. The changes to cover have also hurt them, but not necessarily more than other races.

9) The loss of mechanized lists due to transport changes has hurt too. You can no longer move, disembark, and shoot, which was a major trick of Tacs and CSM. And even if you could, you wouldn't want to as you no longer have the durability to receive a charge and whittle down a unit, or hold until reinforcements come. And drop pods can no longer come in close enough for short range melta shots, and as mentioned above those aren't what they used to be. And transports now cost an arm and a leg.

10) Loss of Pistol+bolter+ccw on many marine units (especially CSM)

11) They did get a couple points cheaper overall, but it's really not enough to help.

Even elite marines units just aren't that great. Berzerkers may be the exception because their special rule and weapons are so phenomenal. But consider the other cult troops: Plague marines give you a lot for their points, but their firepower is so low that it just doesn't matter. So we see poxwalker spam instead. Noise marines are cool and also have some nasty rules and guns, but the points add up really fast. If you try to build an army using more than a couple 5 man objective holding squads, you just won't have enough other stuff. And they die easily. And Rubrics, even with their new powers, just don't have enough firepower. And even with All is Dust, they are proportionally less survivable than most swarm infantry, point for point. These units are not bad in a vacuum (except maybe rubrics), and seem like what we should be forming our armies around. But it just doesn't work.

Primaris marines are more on the right track. If all MeQs had just been given that statline, things would be much different (except plasma spam would still pwn them.) The extra melee attack, extra ap point on bolt weapons, and extra wound really help. But we still don't see armies of primaris the way we saw armies of regular MeQs back in, say, 5th (my main point of comparison as I played it most.) Because even the extra stats at only a few extra points per model doesn't make the units worth using over swarm units + elites and heavy support. The exception may be Blood Angels, because they can stack enough buffs to make Primaris versatile, durable, and efficient in both shooting and melee.

Note I'm not saying that Marines and Chaos are weak overall. Their elite and soup lists are doing fine. But the standard marine infantry has gotten shafted by this edition and it needs help. But there's no easy fix either because the problems go beyond a small points change. It's the entire design philosophy of 8th. And it effect so many units that aren't united by keywords or common names that it'd be hard to change that many overall.

Some combination of the following would help, applied to everyone or only to marines (to represent their greater skill, bigger weapons, etc). I'm trying to keep away from all out statline changes.

A) Move all bolter weapons an AP lower for marines. Standard becomes AP -1, intercessor one becomes -2, heavy bolter -2, etc. This will also help their vehicles out. But it won't break currently good units like assault cannon razorbacks.

B) Make flamer/other former template weapons more reliable. Instead of d6 shots, let them be 3+d3, or an amount based on the size of the attacking unit.

C) Increase the power of pretty much all Chapter traits except Blood Angels and Death Guard to help infantry.

D) Bring back Bolter+Bolt Pistol+CCW for Tacs and CSM and their elite variants

E) Give Jump Pack troops the ability to lock enemies in close combat, or perhaps follow them if they fall back (can be based on leadership check.)

F) Award extra CP for detachments of basic MeQs

All that wishlisting aside, I doubt they'll touch this. Which means this is the edition of Xenos and Soup!