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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 14:23:58
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:10-11 ppm is so much easier. Just accept that marines are now a quasi-horde. Because nothing is survivable.
As people keep mentioning and you keep ignoring, if you make Tacts the same price point as Scouts, I think most people would still pick scouts, because +1 armour save isn't as good as the special deployment options and access to different, situational weapon loadouts ( bp + CCW BA scouts will always beat bolter BA tacts at being in combat). You have to give tacts a special thing to make them any good.
That's because I disagree with them. I'm not ignoring them. Scouts have one job: to die in the first line of bubble wrap. Having a second, slightly more sturdy line of wrap for 10-11 ppm with better weapon choices would be very nice. Knocking three points off a tac would let me buy an additional rhino, which would really help in the " IG autowins by ignoring all shooting restrctions for a pittance" phase of the game.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/28 14:27:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 14:42:55
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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gendoikari87 wrote: devs are not troops and you aren’t infiltrating your entire army. So if they’re the same cost it would make more sense to do 2 tac squads to deploy in home field, two scouts for outfield, and then two intercessor or tacs in razorbacks for advancing upfield, boom battalion
We've already had this discussion. Slayer-Fan123 and Martel732 believe that "being troops" is not good enough for Tacts. I have no idea what you're on about with the infiltrating, lol.
Fundamentally I agree with you that tacts are alright, actually, as it stands. Not great, but functional. Others rabidly disagree, however, and I am trying to meet them halfway by finding solutions to their concerns that would be reasonable for everyone (e.g. buffing Tacts without radically altering the structure of the entire SM army). Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:10-11 ppm is so much easier. Just accept that marines are now a quasi-horde. Because nothing is survivable.
As people keep mentioning and you keep ignoring, if you make Tacts the same price point as Scouts, I think most people would still pick scouts, because +1 armour save isn't as good as the special deployment options and access to different, situational weapon loadouts ( bp + CCW BA scouts will always beat bolter BA tacts at being in combat). You have to give tacts a special thing to make them any good.
That's because I disagree with them. I'm not ignoring them. Scouts have one job: to die in the first line of bubble wrap. Having a second, slightly more sturdy line of wrap for 10-11 ppm with better weapon choices would be very nice. Knocking three points off a tac would let me buy an additional rhino, which would really help in the " IG autowins by ignoring all shooting restrctions for a pittance" phase of the game.
Alright, sure. If I played you we could try 11ppm tacts, but I bet you'd still find a reason to bellyache and it won't help much. At this point, I am not sure there are any changes that could be made that would truly satisfy you, unless IG was nerfed so hard they stopped winning ever.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 14:44:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:00:34
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Tau drop soon. You'll be safe then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:01:56
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Fixture of Dakka
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As a less SM player, but always read the rules for them b.c they are the bread and butter of 40k. They just need a new Codex, some better stratagems, options, and traits will do. There should be a Bonus for taking a 10man over a 5man (due to Sargent's etc.. and b.c Scouts are just as good). Like many armies that gain bonus's for having X or more, some are +1 attack, some are re-rolls. Tac Marines need a bonus just for them. An idea could be; If the unit is not combat squad and has 10 models they gain +1 to their Move, Advance, and BS. But they can Combat Squad anytime during the game, in the turn they do so they gain +1 WS and can Re-roll charges.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 15:02:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:11:36
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Amishprn86 wrote:As a less SM player, but always read the rules for them b.c they are the bread and butter of 40k.
They just need a new Codex, some better stratagems, options, and traits will do.
There should be a Bonus for taking a 10man over a 5man (due to Sargent's etc.. and b.c Scouts are just as good). Like many armies that gain bonus's for having X or more, some are +1 attack, some are re-rolls. Tac Marines need a bonus just for them.
An idea could be; If the unit is not combat squad and has 10 models they gain +1 to their Move, Advance, and BS. But they can Combat Squad anytime during the game, in the turn they do so they gain +1 WS and can Re-roll charges.
That's a neat idea, make them actually good at being generalist, so you could put them in "shooty mode" or "combat mode", like Kastelans but better. The only change I'd make to your idea would be the assault tacts: +1 attack would very much help as well. Re-roll charges also would mean the Black Templars chapter tactic would have to be re-worked, I think, but it could do. Personally I've been a fan (for Black Templars) of rolling 3d6 and taking the two highest for charges, because re-rolls take more time. This would just reinforce that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:13:25
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Here’s an idea, marines stay, Primaris everything drops another 20%.
Step right up buy the newest and greatest models, don’t bother with old gak you’ve had for years
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 15:14:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:14:39
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Those units are currently just ignored. Like in my game against you. Making them cheaper alone will not fix that.
I agree that GW has little to no motivation to throw old marines a bone. But Primaris just makes manticores and basilisks even sexier and only the mortar suffers.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/28 15:15:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:27:42
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm still in the camp that "if we want to bring tacts up to the utility level of vets (sternguard and vanguard) you have to give them something the vets don't have."
The only real counters to my "Chapter Core" idea were:
1) Why would vets not have it?
2) it wouldn't help
Well, to reply:
1) Because if vets get everything tacts have but more on top, then tacts will always be bad compared to vets. Sorry, but they need to not be just "Unit X" and "Unit X+1"
2) This just means it needs refining.
Lastly, though unrelated to the MEQ statline, I'd like to see Vehicles get chapter traits.
However, Vets are usually the Troops +1 in the first place, so this isn't the core issue. Like I said, the core issue is that Tactical Marines and Chaos Marines are terrible when it comes to how equipping them works.
Plus I simply HATE inconsistency in the matter that a Vet would somehow forget that sorta training. This isn't some matter of having a different role so they don't do it. The Vets are always going to be doing those roles but on steroids. Thus I make my proposal on how equipping Chaos and Tactical Marines should work.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:28:19
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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One thing I thought up for making combat squads worthwhile is reroll buffs would affect both halves, as long as the sargeant is in the bubble.
It might be too much book keeping but I think it'd be interesting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 15:43:17
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Unit1126PLL wrote:gendoikari87 wrote: devs are not troops and you aren’t infiltrating your entire army. So if they’re the same cost it would make more sense to do 2 tac squads to deploy in home field, two scouts for outfield, and then two intercessor or tacs in razorbacks for advancing upfield, boom battalion
We've already had this discussion. Slayer-Fan123 and Martel732 believe that "being troops" is not good enough for Tacts. I have no idea what you're on about with the infiltrating, lol.
Fundamentally I agree with you that tacts are alright, actually, as it stands. Not great, but functional. Others rabidly disagree, however, and I am trying to meet them halfway by finding solutions to their concerns that would be reasonable for everyone (e.g. buffing Tacts without radically altering the structure of the entire SM army).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:10-11 ppm is so much easier. Just accept that marines are now a quasi-horde. Because nothing is survivable.
As people keep mentioning and you keep ignoring, if you make Tacts the same price point as Scouts, I think most people would still pick scouts, because +1 armour save isn't as good as the special deployment options and access to different, situational weapon loadouts ( bp + CCW BA scouts will always beat bolter BA tacts at being in combat). You have to give tacts a special thing to make them any good.
That's because I disagree with them. I'm not ignoring them. Scouts have one job: to die in the first line of bubble wrap. Having a second, slightly more sturdy line of wrap for 10-11 ppm with better weapon choices would be very nice. Knocking three points off a tac would let me buy an additional rhino, which would really help in the " IG autowins by ignoring all shooting restrctions for a pittance" phase of the game.
Alright, sure. If I played you we could try 11ppm tacts, but I bet you'd still find a reason to bellyache and it won't help much. At this point, I am not sure there are any changes that could be made that would truly satisfy you, unless IG was nerfed so hard they stopped winning ever.
1. That's because Objective Secured is a non-rule for Marines and Grey Knights and Custodes. Hell it was basically a non-rule for Necrons too. After you get your Scouts for bubble wrap, you can then buy Devastators with two Heavy Weapons and the Cherub instead of trying to make the Tactical Marines do everything at once. That's part of their downfall after all.
2. As a primary Necron, CSM, Loyalist Scum, MT (for a short period of time) and Skitarii player I can tell you how non-functional the basic Marine is after those playing experiences. The equipment loadout is very outdated compared to cheap troops who gets more weapons for cheaper (someone brought up that an Infantry with a Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter is the same price as the bare Tactical Marine squad). That's pretty bonkers.
3. Martel is incorrect on having slightly better weapons. Having more access doesn't mean they're a good platform for those weapons. Having more options means nothing if you're not choosing anything but one (and in this case he chooses Lascannons). At that point, yeah Devastators are better. People seem to forget you don't NEED to buy your weapons for them. 2 with the Cherub is enough to not give up a lot of points and concentrate on getting more weapons in the list to do damage.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:00:10
Subject: Re:Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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One of the problems with Marines is that the Tactical Squad has never really been a good unit when fielded at full 10-man strength, except for maybe in 5th ed, where a couple 10-man Tacs in Rhinos with meltas were often used to sit on midfield objectives. 10-man Tacs become extremely problematic in this edition because one wants to maximize Command Points. So, if you're fielding three 10-man Tacs for a battalion, you could be fielding six 5-man Tacs for a brigade.
In order to make the fluffy 10-man Tac Squad attractive in this edition, something has to be done to address the fact that taking them that way is handicapping one's ability to build detachments with more CP. Taking a Tac in the classic 10-man configuration would have to generate a CP, for instance. Either that, or there needs to be a Marine-specific detachment with 10-man Tac Squads that yields more CP than a basic battalion.
Tacs could also use some more damage output, but in a way that doesn't just make them Devs or Vets. Perhaps they could have a strat that gives them +1 shot to all the bolters in the squad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:02:31
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I am always a little surprised how upset people get about specifically Tacs when basically every unit is the same models with a different name on it. That does speak to me that the primary problem with that unit is just that the bolter is a bad weapon, but this thread has gone around this circle at least twice already, so maybe someone can just insert this post about 5 pages back.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:10:10
Subject: Re:Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:One of the problems with Marines is that the Tactical Squad has never really been a good unit when fielded at full 10-man strength, except for maybe in 5th ed, where a couple 10-man Tacs in Rhinos with meltas were often used to sit on midfield objectives. 10-man Tacs become extremely problematic in this edition because one wants to maximize Command Points. So, if you're fielding three 10-man Tacs for a battalion, you could be fielding six 5-man Tacs for a brigade.
In order to make the fluffy 10-man Tac Squad attractive in this edition, something has to be done to address the fact that taking them that way is handicapping one's ability to build detachments with more CP. Taking a Tac in the classic 10-man configuration would have to generate a CP, for instance. Either that, or there needs to be a Marine-specific detachment with 10-man Tac Squads that yields more CP than a basic battalion.
Tacs could also use some more damage output, but in a way that doesn't just make them Devs or Vets. Perhaps they could have a strat that gives them +1 shot to all the bolters in the squad.
The +1 CP per 10 man squad is a good idea, imo, but probably not enough. Expect all the Marine players to come wheeling in here saying "but Marine stratagems are so bad I might as well bring Guard" or something else that incriminates Guard.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:22:23
Subject: Re:Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:One of the problems with Marines is that the Tactical Squad has never really been a good unit when fielded at full 10-man strength, except for maybe in 5th ed, where a couple 10-man Tacs in Rhinos with meltas were often used to sit on midfield objectives. 10-man Tacs become extremely problematic in this edition because one wants to maximize Command Points. So, if you're fielding three 10-man Tacs for a battalion, you could be fielding six 5-man Tacs for a brigade.
In order to make the fluffy 10-man Tac Squad attractive in this edition, something has to be done to address the fact that taking them that way is handicapping one's ability to build detachments with more CP. Taking a Tac in the classic 10-man configuration would have to generate a CP, for instance. Either that, or there needs to be a Marine-specific detachment with 10-man Tac Squads that yields more CP than a basic battalion.
Tacs could also use some more damage output, but in a way that doesn't just make them Devs or Vets. Perhaps they could have a strat that gives them +1 shot to all the bolters in the squad.
The +1 CP per 10 man squad is a good idea, imo, but probably not enough. Expect all the Marine players to come wheeling in here saying "but Marine stratagems are so bad I might as well bring Guard" or something else that incriminates Guard. 
But Marine stratagems are bad, so I might as well bring guard!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:25:11
Subject: Re:Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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fraser1191 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote: Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:One of the problems with Marines is that the Tactical Squad has never really been a good unit when fielded at full 10-man strength, except for maybe in 5th ed, where a couple 10-man Tacs in Rhinos with meltas were often used to sit on midfield objectives. 10-man Tacs become extremely problematic in this edition because one wants to maximize Command Points. So, if you're fielding three 10-man Tacs for a battalion, you could be fielding six 5-man Tacs for a brigade. In order to make the fluffy 10-man Tac Squad attractive in this edition, something has to be done to address the fact that taking them that way is handicapping one's ability to build detachments with more CP. Taking a Tac in the classic 10-man configuration would have to generate a CP, for instance. Either that, or there needs to be a Marine-specific detachment with 10-man Tac Squads that yields more CP than a basic battalion. Tacs could also use some more damage output, but in a way that doesn't just make them Devs or Vets. Perhaps they could have a strat that gives them +1 shot to all the bolters in the squad. The +1 CP per 10 man squad is a good idea, imo, but probably not enough. Expect all the Marine players to come wheeling in here saying "but Marine stratagems are so bad I might as well bring Guard" or something else that incriminates Guard.  But Marine stratagems are bad, so I might as well bring guard!
You got me.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 16:25:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:41:07
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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How about if 5 man tactical squads could take a heavy weapon and a special weapon again? I think that would go a long way towards making tactical squads viable again.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:41:42
Subject: Re:Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:One of the problems with Marines is that the Tactical Squad has never really been a good unit when fielded at full 10-man strength, except for maybe in 5th ed, where a couple 10-man Tacs in Rhinos with meltas were often used to sit on midfield objectives. 10-man Tacs become extremely problematic in this edition because one wants to maximize Command Points. So, if you're fielding three 10-man Tacs for a battalion, you could be fielding six 5-man Tacs for a brigade.
In order to make the fluffy 10-man Tac Squad attractive in this edition, something has to be done to address the fact that taking them that way is handicapping one's ability to build detachments with more CP. Taking a Tac in the classic 10-man configuration would have to generate a CP, for instance. Either that, or there needs to be a Marine-specific detachment with 10-man Tac Squads that yields more CP than a basic battalion.
Tacs could also use some more damage output, but in a way that doesn't just make them Devs or Vets. Perhaps they could have a strat that gives them +1 shot to all the bolters in the squad.
The +1 CP per 10 man squad is a good idea, imo, but probably not enough. Expect all the Marine players to come wheeling in here saying "but Marine stratagems are so bad I might as well bring Guard" or something else that incriminates Guard. 
Well here I'll make a case for something that worked with another bad unit - gardians.
I play Ulthwe Eldar.
Take a look at the love Gardians got in this codex.
At any time in your opponents turn you can give them a 4++ save for 1 CP. You can make them BS 2+ for 1 command point. You can deep strike them for 1 CP. In 20 man units with 2 heavies.
(none of these benifts overlap with powers from eldar psykers - in fact they stack pretty well with protect making that 4++ a 3++ - autarch buff essentially makes you 2+ reroll fails - and deep strike lets you utilize them turn 1).
Previously a bad almost unplayable unit - turn into a unit I use every game and always performs great for it's points with just a few stratagems.
What can I do with a tactical squad?
I can make it reroll 1's for 1 CP (a very common buff that marine players will already have for free from their auras)
Can fire a hellfire/flak round for 1 CP. (required sub-optimal weapon choices providing a small damage increase - I'd much prefer +1 to hit.)
I can combat squad them mid game...(absolutely useless)
Would I use a 10 man tac if i could Deep strike for 1 CP? Yeah - I'm pretty sure I would do that every game if I had the option. So to me at least it's clear that having bad strategems is a lot of the problem with meqs currently. Having bad transports is another issue. Razorbacks are really just tanks that don't want to move (only 6 man carriage allowed anyways) and rhinos are overpriced. Also the tactical marine is too expensive for it's stat-line. I think those are the 3 key issues.
-Bad strategems
-Bad transport options
-Too expensive
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 16:43:05
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:43:25
Subject: Re:Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:One of the problems with Marines is that the Tactical Squad has never really been a good unit when fielded at full 10-man strength, except for maybe in 5th ed, where a couple 10-man Tacs in Rhinos with meltas were often used to sit on midfield objectives. 10-man Tacs become extremely problematic in this edition because one wants to maximize Command Points. So, if you're fielding three 10-man Tacs for a battalion, you could be fielding six 5-man Tacs for a brigade.
In order to make the fluffy 10-man Tac Squad attractive in this edition, something has to be done to address the fact that taking them that way is handicapping one's ability to build detachments with more CP. Taking a Tac in the classic 10-man configuration would have to generate a CP, for instance. Either that, or there needs to be a Marine-specific detachment with 10-man Tac Squads that yields more CP than a basic battalion.
Tacs could also use some more damage output, but in a way that doesn't just make them Devs or Vets. Perhaps they could have a strat that gives them +1 shot to all the bolters in the squad.
I might even suggest going full-on shoot twice ("Fury of the Chapter"?). Not like there isn't precedent in 8th (Single-Minded Annihilation out of the Tyranids book) and limiting it to Tactical squads only would justify (at least to me) making it cost 1CP where the Tyranid one (which works on Hive Guard) costs 2CP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 16:52:28
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Primark G wrote:How about if 5 man tactical squads could take a heavy weapon and a special weapon again? I think that would go a long way towards making tactical squads viable again.
And where does that leave Crusader Squads?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 17:18:46
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The ideas people suggested that I think would work...
*10ppm
*Special and Heavy per five man unit.
*Better unique stratagems.
I think GDubs should pop into this thread and take some notes. None of the above fixes would take too much work on GW’s part.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 17:20:20
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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How are Rhinos Overpriced? I actually think both Rhinos and Razorbacks are very solid transports for their costs. Droppods in the other hand are very overpriced, yes. And at the end of the day if you don't have anything valuable to transport...
Thats the problem with Devilfish in Tau. They are so expensive, but the only infantry they can transport is so cheap. Is hardly worth it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 17:21:26
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 17:30:30
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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LunarSol wrote:I am always a little surprised how upset people get about specifically Tacs when basically every unit is the same models with a different name on it. That does speak to me that the primary problem with that unit is just that the bolter is a bad weapon, but this thread has gone around this circle at least twice already, so maybe someone can just insert this post about 5 pages back.
It's the primary problem for them on top of the weapon configuration. I'm fighting for the basic Chaos Space Marine too, trust me.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 17:46:40
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Galas wrote:How are Rhinos Overpriced? I actually think both Rhinos and Razorbacks are very solid transports for their costs. Droppods in the other hand are very overpriced, yes. And at the end of the day if you don't have anything valuable to transport...
Thats the problem with Devilfish in Tau. They are so expensive, but the only infantry they can transport is so cheap. Is hardly worth it.
Transports by their very nature should be cheap, in this edition they aren't. So why bring a transport? If a infantry squad requires it to do what they need to. Tau by their very nature don't need to be close. Breachers are the only thing that COULD use it and as far as I am aware they suck, because their efficiency is abysmal so why spend a transport's price tag on them? Especially a transport that gets a inflated price because of its combat abilities (also why I hate the landraider still it NEEDS to be cheaper).
Tac. Marines are similar. They have no business being close to the enemy, what are you gonna do? Charge them with tac. squads? A squad that will most likely cost MORE than the unit they are charging and fail to do any significant damage to (full squad will statistically get 6 HITS, not even wounds)? Shoot past the chaff with bolters? Intercept a enemy melee unit? You can do that on foot. A Rhino on its own is likely worth 70 points, but there is absolutely NOTHING worth putting in them.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 17:59:04
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Quickjager wrote: Galas wrote:How are Rhinos Overpriced? I actually think both Rhinos and Razorbacks are very solid transports for their costs. Droppods in the other hand are very overpriced, yes. And at the end of the day if you don't have anything valuable to transport...
Thats the problem with Devilfish in Tau. They are so expensive, but the only infantry they can transport is so cheap. Is hardly worth it.
Transports by their very nature should be cheap, in this edition they aren't. So why bring a transport? If a infantry squad requires it to do what they need to. Tau by their very nature don't need to be close. Breachers are the only thing that COULD use it and as far as I am aware they suck, because their efficiency is abysmal so why spend a transport's price tag on them? Especially a transport that gets a inflated price because of its combat abilities (also why I hate the landraider still it NEEDS to be cheaper).
Tac. Marines are similar. They have no business being close to the enemy, what are you gonna do? Charge them with tac. squads? A squad that will most likely cost MORE than the unit they are charging and fail to do any significant damage to (full squad will statistically get 6 HITS, not even wounds)? Shoot past the chaff with bolters? Intercept a enemy melee unit? You can do that on foot. A Rhino on its own is likely worth 70 points, but there is absolutely NOTHING worth putting in them.
I regularly put Company Vereans with Stormbolters and Chainsword inside Razorbacks. The company veterans are 90 points. They unload, fire 20 Stormbolter shots and they charged after being buffed with reroll to hit and to wound in combat with my librarian doing 20 meele attacks. And normally I put a Librarian, 2-3 Company Champions and a 5-man tact marine squad with a plasma rifle and a combi plasma in a rhino. If I want to run them cheap I just put 5 company veterans inside a rhino, I don't care about not using the other 5 transpor slots.
But maybe Vanilla Marines don't have that, for example our Company Champions, with the Blade of Caliban, can kill everything, from Characters to light vehicles to elite units.
And Breachers are actually pretty good. The only problem is that the Devilfish as you say pays a ton for his firepower, that is not bad, but Tau infantry units arent elite enough to justify a transport so expensive for what they do, even if they are good for their own cost.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/28 18:01:50
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 18:02:47
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Galas wrote:How are Rhinos Overpriced? I actually think both Rhinos and Razorbacks are very solid transports for their costs. Droppods in the other hand are very overpriced, yes. And at the end of the day if you don't have anything valuable to transport...
Thats the problem with Devilfish in Tau. They are so expensive, but the only infantry they can transport is so cheap. Is hardly worth it.
Devilfish is a lot more overpriced than a rhino is I will grant you that. 74 points is too much for a rhino though. At 50 it would be more appealing.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 18:05:23
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Galas wrote:How are Rhinos Overpriced? I actually think both Rhinos and Razorbacks are very solid transports for their costs. Droppods in the other hand are very overpriced, yes. And at the end of the day if you don't have anything valuable to transport...
Thats the problem with Devilfish in Tau. They are so expensive, but the only infantry they can transport is so cheap. Is hardly worth it.
Transports generally are overpriced because of how much damage gets dealt in the first turn or two of a game of 8th. The extreme example here is the Adeptus Custodes and the Land Raider; if I try to drive a unit of Guards forward in a Land Raider I'm spending ~600pts for the privilege of making sure one of my units is doing nothing for at least the first two turns, which means my opponent can safely ignore 600pts of my army and focus down the 1,400pts that are actually attacking him. If I had taken six bikes, or three bikes and used From The Golden Light to deepstrike the infantry, or even just spent all those points on Terminators and dropped them in on turn one I'd be further up the table and doing a lot more damage in the first two turns rather than spending 600pts on four tough lascannons that might be able to do some melee damage later if the other guy cooperates and places himself somewhere the infantry can get to. Taking the Land Raider forces me to fight piecemeal, and it forces me to sit and take a lot more firepower than I want to be taking.
Transports in other armies aren't as extreme as the Custodian Land Raider because other armies aren't as knife-edge aggressive/short-ranged, and other armies don't usually have to dump >600pts into a unit in a transport, but the problem is still fundamentally the same: a unit in a transport isn't attacking people, and intentionally giving yourself less firepower on the first turn or two of a game in which one side can achieve a decisive advantage easily by doing more damage in the first turn or two is a pretty crippling thing to do.
The transports that are good in 8th are those that are actually tough for their cost (ex. Wave Serpents), those that are cheap and open-topped (ex. Venoms), and those that are cost-effective gunboats independent of their transport capacity (ex. Razorbacks). Taking short-ranged units and expecting them to get up the table in transports, get out, and kill things is almost universally a bad idea when you could instead take units that can do their job well without transports (via Deep Strike, faster movement under their own power, or enough range to hit things without moving around). If the transport doesn't have a lot of guns (a Rhino, for instance) its durability is almost irrelevant; if you pack it full of a lot of short-ranged firepower it becomes hugely expensive and your opponent can cripple the unit it's transporting by blasting it off the table, if you pack it with cheaper/less effective units your opponent can safely ignore it, let you waste time getting close while he kills more pressing threats, and then just kill the squad that gets out after they get their one shot off. And either way a short-ranged squad in a transport is significantly more expensive than a long-ranged squad that does basically the same thing, or a short-ranged squad that can get up the table and start attacking faster than the squad in the transport could.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 18:05:52
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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I think 50 points rhinos would be insane. It would be worth it just to buy rhinos as LOS blocking terrain!
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 18:09:20
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Galas wrote:I think 50 points rhinos would be insane. It would be worth it just to buy rhinos as LOS blocking terrain!
I tend to favour making things like vehicles stronger/tougher rather than making them cheaper; 50pt Rhinos brings us back to the golden days of 5e and walls of 35pt Rhinos stretching from one horizon to the other, rather than making it feel armoured and threatening. Give it its top-hatch fire points back so you don't cripple your early-game firepower by putting units into it and so your opponent can't just ignore it and it might fit 8th better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 18:20:57
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Yeah. Losing firepoints did more to hamstring transports this edition than any other change.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/02/28 18:25:19
Subject: Can the MeQ statline be saved?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Primark G wrote:How about if 5 man tactical squads could take a heavy weapon and a special weapon again? I think that would go a long way towards making tactical squads viable again.
And where does that leave Crusader Squads?
It leaves them fine. We are trying to fix MeQ, not Q_Q.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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