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 Silentz wrote:
Is the real problem that Scouts went from WS/BS 4+ to 3+ a while back?

Certainly something which dramatically impacted Tacs

That was a terrible move. It fethed up every marine codex.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

It's a grey area at this point,

Let me stop you right there. No it's not. GW just spent millions of dollars to produce a new line to sell to people who already have 3000+ points of space marines. GW will make money, they are a company. they will do what is in the interest of making money. does letting people win at tournaments with armies they've had for 10+ years make any business sense? no it does not.

Nilla marines are going to get worse as time goes on, primaris will get better, they will get the new toys. it's why primaris transports can't take nilla marines and primaris can't take nilla transports.

The only MEQ army I play is chaos space marines, and I like them as they are stat-wise. There are plenty of options for playing more elite armies - grey knights, Primaris, Custardtartes...

maybe it's just because I only play for fun not hyper-competitive...

... or maybe the rules just need to require armies to take more of their basic infantry.

Mark.

I like the additional CP for Tac squads idea. It would require fairly minimal changes rather than rebalancing a whole slew of codexes. Marine strategems might not be the very best, but if we had more to play with some of the less attractive ones might make more sense. With extra CP sticking a heavy bolter in those tac squads would make sense to use hellfire shells, burning an auspex scan against deep strikers isn't so costly, Sternguard's +1 to wound might make more sense, etc etc.

Scouts were 3+, went to 4+ and then back to 3+.

Cheeslord wrote:
The only MEQ army I play is chaos space marines, and I like them as they are stat-wise. There are plenty of options for playing more elite armies - grey knights, Primaris, Custardtartes...

maybe it's just because I only play for fun not hyper-competitive...

... or maybe the rules just need to require armies to take more of their basic infantry.

Mark.

Or it's because stuff like Berzerkers have enough special rules and statbuffs over other MEQ to actually be playable.

Are berserkers playable? My buddies alpha legion zerkers get wiped the feth off the board by my guard every time


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Of course that might be his fault for running units of 20+ and deep striking them right in front of 4+ battle cannons


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And for the record I’m undefeated this edition. I have two manticore and run zero guardsmen. These haven’t even been close. My 2000 point list is:


++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [23 PL, 451pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Tallarn

+ HQ +

Commissar Yarrick [7 PL, 130pts]

+ Elites +

Crusaders [6 PL, 150pts]
. 10x Crusader: 10x Power Sword

Ministorum Priest [2 PL, 35pts]

Ratlings [2 PL, 45pts]
. 5x Ratling: 5x Sniper Rifle

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 91pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [59 PL, 971pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Knight Commander Pask [13 PL, 219pts]: Lascannon
. Command Battle Tank: Battle Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [30 PL, 466pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Punisher: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

Manticore [8 PL, 143pts]: Heavy Bolter

Manticore [8 PL, 143pts]: Heavy Bolter

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [34 PL, 578pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Valhallan

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Psychic Barrier, Psychic Maelstrom

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Gaze of the Emperor, Nightshroud

+ Lord of War +

Baneblade [28 PL, 456pts]: Autocannon, Demolisher cannon, Twin heavy bolter

++ Total: [116 PL, 2000pts] ++

There are very few of the OP's point-by-point breakdown I agree with, at least on their own, but the fact of the matter is that 8th edition is a rough place for Marines. Back in the day they could rely on 3+ armour/4+ cover, but that withers away with AP modifers and the new cover rules. In some situations they have it better, but overall it is slightly worse. Add in the increased volume of fire from changes to twin linked weapons, the reduced penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and the ability to target different units and a lot of the strengths of the MeQ MSUs shift into the red.

I don't think they are "dead", though.

-T10

I'd be more sympathetic if the world where Marines are a mid-level Mook who doesn't feel elite at all wasn't a world entirely created by the marine Fanbase.

How many times have people asked for "Marines but awesome-er" and how many times have GW obliged?

First we got new blood Angels and new space wolves. Then we got new GK with all Terminator awesomeness. Then vanilla Marines got awesome super special ultra Terminator centurions because they were too lame compared to them. Then dark Angels got new stuff because there wasn't enough to distinguish them from the other all-termie or all-bike Marines. Then we got Deathwatch because all the chapters INDIVIDUALLY had rules but what about all the chapters together at the same time? Then we got primaris Marines so little jimmy wouldn't have to feel sad his Marines weren't taller than little Timmy's guardsmen. It says, it says in the book right here they should be taller! GW why don't you make them be taller? And now we're at where we are now and the custodes are swinging around weapons so large and ornate that final fantasy characters are telling them to dial it back a bit.

There's too many layers of Marines but better in the game now for Marines to feel elite. At best you can make them a decent middle of the road mook unit.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'd be more sympathetic if the world where Marines are a mid-level Mook who doesn't feel elite at all wasn't a world entirely created by the marine Fanbase.

How many times have people asked for "Marines but awesome-er" and how many times have GW obliged?

First we got new blood Angels and new space wolves. Then we got new GK with all Terminator awesomeness. Then vanilla Marines got awesome super special ultra Terminator centurions because they were too lame compared to them. Then dark Angels got new stuff because there wasn't enough to distinguish them from the other all-termie or all-bike Marines. Then we got Deathwatch because all the chapters INDIVIDUALLY had rules but what about all the chapters together at the same time? Then we got primaris Marines so little jimmy wouldn't have to feel sad his Marines weren't taller than little Timmy's guardsmen. It says, it says in the book right here they should be taller! GW why don't you make them be taller? And now we're at where we are now and the custodes are swinging around weapons so large and ornate that final fantasy characters are telling them to dial it back a bit.

There's too many layers of Marines but better in the game now for Marines to feel elite. At best you can make them a decent middle of the road mook unit.

So basically you're not sympathetic because a few Codices could be rolled together with the main codex? That seems mildly petty of you.


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 Silentz wrote:
Is the real problem that Scouts went from WS/BS 4+ to 3+ a while back?

Certainly something which dramatically impacted Tacs

They were originally BS/WS3+ in the first place. However that didn't impact anything as they were still taken over Tactical Marines because of how cool Storms were. You grabbed a Combi-Melta and a Melta Bomb and you were set to suicide throw yourself into a vehicle.

No, I'm unsympathetic because the only other faction in the game that seems to have the "any new thing must be BIGGER and BETTER than the last thing" scale creep problem is Tau.

Every marine release has been bigger, better, more awesome things than the last marine release, and every time something like that gets released, the marine playerbase A) snaps it right up, and then either B) starts wondering why something bigger, badder, and more awesome that's been mentioned in lore isn't in the game (See: Possibly alive primarchs, deathwatch, full custodes model line), or C) starts complaining that an existing thing doesn't feel as big, bad, or awesome as it should (Terminators, Assault Marines, marine tanks). Then when B or C gets released as a new model kit, the cycle starts over again.

Not every Necron in the new-cron model release was "the biggest, baddest, most elite necron EVER", they had a bunch of stuff at a range of power levels. Same deal with the Dark Eldar release, the mechanicum release, the GSC release. In fact, some of the biggest flops model line wise were when GW tried to do a similar thing with a different faction. Remember how flat the Scions fell when they released their codex in 6th as "bigger better more elite guardsmen"? Everyone called them wanna be space marines and they got forgotten for a whole edition and quietly folded back into the guard codex.

Remember how psyched everyone was when they redesigned the Assault, Devastator and Tactical boxes in 7th? Yeah, neither do I. Went off without a peep. Compare that to the number of "just finished my first space marine WOOOO" pictures of primaris marines we're still seeing, however many months after they dropped.

At the_scotsman you have summed it up absolutely right - thanks!

Yeah, there was totally no pushback to Stormravens or Centurions or Primaris Marines from the playerbase. No siree, not a single angry thread. Not one.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yeah, there was totally no pushback to Stormravens or Centurions or Primaris Marines from the playerbase. No siree, not a single angry thread. Not one.

If you were to weight "angry threads on internet forums" vs "sales numbers" on Games Workshop's decision making priority list, what length of paper roll do you figure you'd require to properly space the two apart? One mile? two?

I'm also in agreement with Scotsman. Uberbettersuperspecialmarines got old a looong time ago.

the_scotsman wrote:
No, I'm unsympathetic because the only other faction in the game that seems to have the "any new thing must be BIGGER and BETTER than the last thing" scale creep problem is Tau.

Every marine release has been bigger, better, more awesome things than the last marine release, and every time something like that gets released, the marine playerbase A) snaps it right up, and then either B) starts wondering why something bigger, badder, and more awesome that's been mentioned in lore isn't in the game (See: Possibly alive primarchs, deathwatch, full custodes model line), or C) starts complaining that an existing thing doesn't feel as big, bad, or awesome as it should (Terminators, Assault Marines, marine tanks). Then when B or C gets released as a new model kit, the cycle starts over again.

Not every Necron in the new-cron model release was "the biggest, baddest, most elite necron EVER", they had a bunch of stuff at a range of power levels. Same deal with the Dark Eldar release, the mechanicum release, the GSC release. In fact, some of the biggest flops model line wise were when GW tried to do a similar thing with a different faction. Remember how flat the Scions fell when they released their codex in 6th as "bigger better more elite guardsmen"? Everyone called them wanna be space marines and they got forgotten for a whole edition and quietly folded back into the guard codex.

Remember how psyched everyone was when they redesigned the Assault, Devastator and Tactical boxes in 7th? Yeah, neither do I. Went off without a peep. Compare that to the number of "just finished my first space marine WOOOO" pictures of primaris marines we're still seeing, however many months after they dropped.

As far as I'm aware literally no one asked for awesomer marines, they just want more detailed and lore derived models. GW just puts out more and more models because that is how THEIR COMPANY WORKS. That is like saying video game companies need to stop making video games. Maybe Blizzard should drop Overwatch and go remake Warcraft 1 and 2 huh? I'm sure that will be profitable.

Guess whose fluff makes up 90% of the lore? Psssst it isn't Tau, DE, Eldar, Orks or Tyranids. So guess who gets more FLUFFY MODELS. It isn't Sep't or Waaaaghhh Assblastaed. And guess what models got blasted by the players? The ones that got ass pulled out of no where in lore.

the_scotsman wrote:
No, I'm unsympathetic because the only other faction in the game that seems to have the "any new thing must be BIGGER and BETTER than the last thing" scale creep problem is Tau.

Every marine release has been bigger, better, more awesome things than the last marine release, and every time something like that gets released, the marine playerbase A) snaps it right up, and then either B) starts wondering why something bigger, badder, and more awesome that's been mentioned in lore isn't in the game (See: Possibly alive primarchs, deathwatch, full custodes model line), or C) starts complaining that an existing thing doesn't feel as big, bad, or awesome as it should (Terminators, Assault Marines, marine tanks). Then when B or C gets released as a new model kit, the cycle starts over again.

Not every Necron in the new-cron model release was "the biggest, baddest, most elite necron EVER", they had a bunch of stuff at a range of power levels. Same deal with the Dark Eldar release, the mechanicum release, the GSC release. In fact, some of the biggest flops model line wise were when GW tried to do a similar thing with a different faction. Remember how flat the Scions fell when they released their codex in 6th as "bigger better more elite guardsmen"? Everyone called them wanna be space marines and they got forgotten for a whole edition and quietly folded back into the guard codex.

Remember how psyched everyone was when they redesigned the Assault, Devastator and Tactical boxes in 7th? Yeah, neither do I. Went off without a peep. Compare that to the number of "just finished my first space marine WOOOO" pictures of primaris marines we're still seeing, however many months after they dropped.

Well that's pretty revisionist. Lemme help you out there.
1. Only Deathwatch and Grey Knights really fit that descriptor even close, as one is literally a Chapter of just Psychic Marines and the other a collective of the best each Chapter has to offer. However you are incorrect as Deathwatch were the only ones promoted as that, as Grey Knights are promoted as Psychic Marines with more elite training rather than JUST being the best of the best. So that leaves Deathwatch basically, as Custodes aren't Marines. Good try though I give you a C for effort.
2. That's because Terminators and Assault Marines suck, and the tanks have been mediocre for pretty much their entire existence at best. So now you're complaining that Marine players were complaining about their bad units. K
3. Scions fell flat because the "codex", if you could call it that, had the Scions, Command Squads, the two Transports, and a Commisar. It's literally a 5 unit codex. Nobody called them wannabe Marines to disparage the codex outside what you came up with in your head. Everyone disparaged the codex because it was a garbage product.
4. Yeah of course nobody really cared about the redesign of those boxes. What'd they add? The Grav Cannon and the Eviscerstor? Kits were fine before, so why would people be excited about a couple more options? This is especially when one of those units is garbage and they somehow have an option not available to anyone else.

the_scotsman wrote:
custodes are swinging around weapons so large and ornate that final fantasy characters are telling them to dial it back a bit.

that was hilarious. at least the custodes look like they're actually strong enuf to swing them.


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 Quickjager wrote:
[ That is like saying video game companies need to stop making video games. Maybe Blizzard should drop Overwatch and go remake Warcraft 1 and 2 huh? I'm sure that will be profitable.
.

I would buy a remake of Warcraft II. I had hoped that was what WOW was gonna be but massively disappointed. but I guess they need to prey on morons who think paying a monthly subscription to a game is cool.

back on topic,

I think GW did the primaris models right but not in their integration into the game/lore. models look incredible, intercessors are what reg marines shoulda been all along and other than weapons loadout are what everybody wanted to begin with.

Intercessors look GOOD, which is enough reason for most people to buy them. I bought Scions because they looked good myself back in 7th and used them as acolytes.

You heard the rumors about the remake yea? Bunch of old players got invited and NDA'ed by Blizz.

I'm in agreement with the_scotsman. The revisions of elite dudes in power armour has reached ridiculous levels. Not only that, but they're finding it harder and harder to make them unique enough to justify their inclusion.

Darsath wrote:
I'm in agreement with the_scotsman. The revisions of elite dudes in power armour has reached ridiculous levels. Not only that, but they're finding it harder and harder to make them unique enough to justify their inclusion.

QFT

I am glad to know others feel the same.

I got ~10.000 pts of Salamanders and I own no Primaris Marines.
I find everything about them absolutely ludicrous; The model's themselves, and especially their fluff.

I already have my big, genetically engineered supersoldiers in power armour thanks, they're called "Space Marines".
I don't need nor do I want even bigger, more genetically engineered supersoldiers.

The only thing Primaris Marines does imo is undermine the awesomeness that was/is (regular) Space Marines.

I'm not sure what inscect and his followers are adding to the conversation.

You're salty that marines get new sculpts. Who the [blank] cares. If they were OP units like reapers/spears/IG then you would have a point in a thread about on table effectiveness of marines units.

All the marine dexes should have been rolled into one, paint them how you want and call them ultras, templars or whatevers and be done with it, special characters available to all armies (build your own chapter masters/primarchs with a point costed trait list and just get us to buy the new models because they look cool not because they come with awesome in game abilities...). BA, DA, DW, SW in non-compliant dex, GK, inquisition, custodes in super maine dex and move on. It is redundant and silly that there is so much focus on marines but they are a cash cow and GW isn't going to give that up.

I'd love to hear any suggestions or counterpoints to anything said in this thread about marine unit effectiveness on the table.

Basic power armor dudes are bad. Overcosted/under-effective call it what you want. The primaris line is still over costed by about 10-20% and is missing a ton of key elements (transports, deepstrikers, CQC and specialists) but the writing on the wall is pretty clear that GW wants to go in that direction.

I really don't want GW to phase out my marine collection but that seems what they are hell-bent on doing which is making me look at my boys and then at ebay.

I'm not sure why anyone would be jealous of GW invalidating thousands of hobby dollars and hundreds of hobby hours in order to get SM players to snap up the new hotness but for some reason those people exist. I don't want this to happen to any other army but when they start replacing eldar with the new eldar or crons with the new crons in 5-10 years (GW moves slow, we all know that and quarterly numbers need to improve so my guess is they are coming after your guys next) I'll try to remember how sympathetic you guys have been to our side.

Look, if one thing came out of the Great Marine Creepening of 4th-7th ed, it was a return to 2nd ed levels of army level customization and options. Seeing different subfactions get their own rules and powers and traits and whatnot brings a tear to my variety-lovin' eye. But pretending it didn't happen is ridiculous.

Edit, sorry, this got off topic.

On to the topic of the thread:

If you want GW to change marines with any kind of stat buffs to make them "elite warriors of humanity" you're going to be disappointed. The scale of the game has gone past that point. Former "mid-level trooper" units from other armies are now horde units (Genestealers, Bloodletters, Fire Warriors). Former "elite trooper" units are now mid-level trooper units (marines, dire avengers, etc.)

I think the way to make the Tactical Marine relevant again is to focus on his customizability vs the primaris marine's more powerful but more rigid armament. I think it'd be cool to give them options that allow them to do things like hot-swap special weapons (maybe using Reinforcement Points). The idea that they give a CP is I think overkill, unless it was for a FULL tactical squad of 10, rather than the 65 point 5-man squad (we want marines to feel like real marines, not glorified CP batteries.) I think it might be cooler to allow a space marine tactical squad to use a free stratagem once per game, or once per turn if it's an army wide, act-of-faith style thing. That would effectively give you more than 1 free cp per tacical squad on average, but it would force you to be actually USING the tactical squads, instead of just using them as chaff/batteries to feed your primarch or flyerspam list.

I suggest this because Dire Avengers either used to or still do have a small element of player choice, where they could take a super shot, or they could get super overwatch, in a recent codex. It gave them a little moment where the player went "oh, I'm doing a thing with my dire avengers. THey're not just a slightly better guardian, because I get to make this little tactical choice. That feels cool."

So what you're saying is that because we got a bunch of releases of mega marines like Custodes, that now most marine basic units shouldn't be viable on tabletop?

This thread is about the viability of MeQ units. Not about some proportional fluff balance of new, more elite units. If you dislike these new uber marines, I'd think you'd be more sympathetic to having regular marines not be worthless.

Vanilla MeQs are not weak because power shifted in favor of newer more powerful marines. They are weak in proportion to the baseline rules, and in proportion to themselves in earlier editions. They got screwed over by edition wide rule changes, not by other marine units becoming proportionally stronger.

I don't disagree that Marines are not great in the new system.

What I am saying is that rather than hoping for buffs like extra attacks, extra wounds, whatever, is barking up the wrong tree, because as soon as you give basic Marines some bonus, say, to their save, you have to give every unit that now exists who is "Marines +1" that same thing.

Instead, give tactical Marines a shtick. A unique thing they do, that nobody else does. Their thing is supposed to be "flexibility" right? Good contrast with primaris Marines.

I think the "they give you CP" is an ok idea but I also think it just means you turn them into mindless batteries. You'll never spend those CPS on a crappy tac squad. They'll just be used as a screen and the CP will get used on a primarch or a soup Ally. Hence my suggestion to instead give each tac squad one free use of a Stratagem per game. That, and their wide selection of special weapons and the combat squad rule, might solidify their role as "flexible, tactical Marines".

the_scotsman wrote:
Hence my suggestion to instead give each tac squad one free use of a Stratagem per game. That, and their wide selection of special weapons and the combat squad rule, might solidify their role as "flexible, tactical Marines".

I like this.
Want to spend it on a reroll? Want your tacticals to counter-attack for free? To automatically pass a morale-check (sergeant in the DoW-intro comes to mind), or any other stratagem that is applicable to them. Doesn't seem one bit OP, and adds some unique flavor to a rather flavorless unit.

the_scotsman wrote:
I don't disagree that Marines are not great in the new system.

What I am saying is that rather than hoping for buffs like extra attacks, extra wounds, whatever, is barking up the wrong tree, because as soon as you give basic Marines some bonus, say, to their save, you have to give every unit that now exists who is "Marines +1" that same thing.

Instead, give tactical Marines a shtick. A unique thing they do, that nobody else does. Their thing is supposed to be "flexibility" right? Good contrast with primaris Marines.

I think the "they give you CP" is an ok idea but I also think it just means you turn them into mindless batteries. You'll never spend those CPS on a crappy tac squad. They'll just be used as a screen and the CP will get used on a primarch or a soup Ally. Hence my suggestion to instead give each tac squad one free use of a Stratagem per game. That, and their wide selection of special weapons and the combat squad rule, might solidify their role as "flexible, tactical Marines".

I agree in principal, but I don't think it's as absolute as you describe. The basic MeQ statline is distinct from the Primaris statline. There's no reason that it couldn't get stronger without Primaris or Custodes getting stronger. Tacs could have 2A and Primaris are still stronger due to also have 2W and stronger base weapons.

I'm not opposed to giving Tacs their own shtick, but it doesn't really address the wider problem. Tacs aren't just bad because they are Tacs, they are bad because they are MeQs. So I'm arguing that ALL MeQs need to be given their own shtick. And then tacs probably need something else of their own as well because they are even worse off than other MeQs.

That would also work but, would this be excempt from the normal one use of a stratageum per phase limit?
Or would it still be one use per phase?
It would certainly help move them from the why bother shelf to worth considering. But you agree they need some reason to be fielded which they are currently lacking.

the_scotsman wrote:
I don't disagree that Marines are not great in the new system.

What I am saying is that rather than hoping for buffs like extra attacks, extra wounds, whatever, is barking up the wrong tree, because as soon as you give basic Marines some bonus, say, to their save, you have to give every unit that now exists who is "Marines +1" that same thing.

Instead, give tactical Marines a shtick. A unique thing they do, that nobody else does. Their thing is supposed to be "flexibility" right? Good contrast with primaris Marines.

I think the "they give you CP" is an ok idea but I also think it just means you turn them into mindless batteries. You'll never spend those CPS on a crappy tac squad. They'll just be used as a screen and the CP will get used on a primarch or a soup Ally. Hence my suggestion to instead give each tac squad one free use of a Stratagem per game. That, and their wide selection of special weapons and the combat squad rule, might solidify their role as "flexible, tactical Marines".

To be honest, a “Tactical Flexibility” stratagem that was actually good would probably work. I doubt I would use the current iteration even if it was free.