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 Marmatag wrote:

bananathug wrote:
How does this list beat nidswarm or anything with deepstrike bombs?

Am I taking crazy pills? I see so many issues with this in a competitive TAC setting.

No, you're not.

Insectum7 seems like a genuinely nice guy, he just plays in a very, very casual meta, and assumes that is just how 40k is.

Howabout you post your list?

Marmatag doesn't play marines, so what good will posting his list do?

Why not address some of the potentially problematic lists that bananathug suggested? How would your list go about tackling those threats? I'd very much like to see that a list like yours can hack it in a competitive meta since I have no interest in playing primaris and very little interest in souping in other elements, but the evidence doesn't seem to support this conclusion.

 Porphyrius wrote:
Marmatag doesn't play marines, so what good will posting his list do?

Why not address some of the potentially problematic lists that bananathug suggested? How would your list go about tackling those threats? I'd very much like to see that a list like yours can hack it in a competitive meta since I have no interest in playing primaris and very little interest in souping in other elements, but the evidence doesn't seem to support this conclusion.

Little short on time at the moment but I'll try a breakdown a bit later.

Still want to see marmarags list as it would supposedly be a concrete example of something competetive.

I have come to find out Nidz are better now but not top tier hence why people still spamming flyrants.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Still want to see marmarags list as it would supposedly be a concrete example of something competetive.

I think this will turn the thread into a pissing contest. I didn't attack your list, or you.

If you're genuinely interested in my list, shoot me a PM and i'll share it with you.

If you feel your list is competitive, I think you should have something to demonstrate that.

EDIT - let me rephrase, when i say competitive, i'm referring to a list that can win against documented top tier lists.

Marmatag you are knowledgeable and tactical. I think Insectum7 is too. SM can never win here because while they are not top 3 there are a lot of people who post here about how bad they are based only on their own experience and inability for whatever reason to do well with them. You just see the same things said over and over ad nauseous. They basically ignore any meaningful rebuttals. I feel bad for people who come here looking for good advice how to play SM and/or design a good list they would enjoy playing.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Still want to see marmarags list as it would supposedly be a concrete example of something competetive.

I think this will turn the thread into a pissing contest. I didn't attack your list, or you.

If you're genuinely interested in my list, shoot me a PM and i'll share it with you.

If you feel your list is competitive, I think you should have something to demonstrate that.

EDIT - let me rephrase, when i say competitive, i'm referring to a list that can win against documented top tier lists.

Forgive me if my first response is "chicken". As "he plays in a very, very casual meta, and assumes that's just how 40k is." Could ceetainly be construed as "rude".

I'm not one for saying my list will autowin or anything like that, just that it has a fighting chance. I wouldn't be suprised if your list can handle ITC better, as I haven't played an ITC mission since 7th. I'll pm you out of curiosity though. Since you're east bay, we can even have a game or two.

Ok - if i misjudged your competition - that's my bad. I have no idea how it goes in your games to be totally and completely honest. Since we're going to PM, maybe we could share batreps back and forth?

I would love to have a game. Are you going to the BAO?

In any case - a lot of the people you're discussing the game with play ITC. So, that would explain why there is a colossal disconnect.

FWIW I am not posting list here because it's a marine thread, and i'd rather not derail it. My list is freely available in the Tyranid tactics thread But i did send the PM

bananathug wrote:

I don't see the fire-power to remove any type of horde with 35 bolter shots at > 12" plus your sternguard shots. At least not before they are ontop of you in melee.

55 bolters spread throughout the list, not counting the Sternguard. I prefer the Special Issue bolters for them, but Storm Bolters are a free swap. Not counting the Sternguard, the bolters get 30 gaunt kills at 24" if they're buffed. Being able to fall back and fire has served me well in those scenarios, and rapid-firing bumps up the kills considerably. If the swarm is really going to be the issue, all the heavy weapons have multiple shots and the combi-plasmas can fire both guns, frags can be thrown, etc. to eke out extra kills.

I only see protection for 30 models out of pods but as soon as they drop they are swarmed and dead.

You either have to castle up really close around your two buff characters (who have thunderhammers and jump-packs?) or spread out and severely handicap your fire-power.

Because only a single model in the squad has to be in the character bubble in order to be buffed, the army can cover a pretty wide area if it needs to, and still get the bonuses. Defensive placement can help against swarms, but the positioning game is pretty particular, depends heavily on terrain, units involved etc. If I added up all the potential damage my army could do at close range, it makes for a lot of dead enemies. (30 dead gaunts from bolters at 24" equates to 60 at 12", and thats just bolters) I'm willing to fight it out.

Creating actual physical barriers with bodies and pods has helped vs. Swarms. In extreme cases that can be a big help.

No mobility so you either land on objectives (and then promptly get blown off of them) or you don't get them.

That's so vague I'm not sure what to do with it.

The most aggressive drop involves the Devs, Banner, Chapter Master and Lieutenant and averages 30 overcharged plasma shots at 36". It averages about 3 dead Manticores not counting the bolters. I like to get them into a ruin, and with the supporting units not far behind. Everytime a marine dies within 6" of the banner, he gets a 2/3 chance to shoot again. If for some reason all the Devs die in a turn, the Plasmas average another Manticore kill on the way out. Banner makes them immune to morale.

One of the gimmicks of the list is that it can mix and match who drops to optimize against the opponent. If the Sternguard and Tacs are served better going in and and Devs in support, then thats what I'll do instead.

What do you do against 6 flyrants? Alpha legion berzerkers and some demon princes? Tzangors and enlightened? Or any top tier meta list?

Scouts and bolter combat squads can make a decent anti deep-strike screen to start out with. Castled Plasma Cannons get nearly 2 Tyrant kills. A counter-drop with Sternguard and Tacs can get another one. Lots of bolters do reasonably well at filling the gaps and plinking away wounds. Devs remain big targets, but again they often shoot as they die.

The captain and lt with their packs and hammers serve as emergency countermeasures for big CC types, and the fall back and shoot tactics serve well against assault armies. I don't know much about tzaangors, but iirc they're T3. Again, assault is the grittiest part of the game, and one where little particulars can swing the fight. It's hard to predict what happens, and initial positioning can be huge.

I guess you don't give up a lot of secondary points but you'll give up all the primary that an opponent can ask for in ITC.

Important to the thread is the fact that ITC is, in actuality, likely a small fraction of 40k games played. I don't play ITC, usually its BRB and open war.

It may do alright against reaper spam due to number of bodies but that is just one list out of the meta. But 2x20 guardians out of the webway ruins this list.

Honestly I'm happy Guardians are a thing. My move depends on the rest of the list and the mission.

Psychic defense?

Little. Technically, I could trade the relic banner for the UM armor that allows a denial, except my models aren't blue. In my experience smite spam is the issue, I could feed it bodies in the short term. I'm not sure if that's an issue that'll stick around.

Anything that can screen out your pods to over 24" (every competitive list) kills you before you can kill it. Heavy weapons with only 36" at most means you are shooting at a -1 first turn (often into another -1 so overcharge if you want to) with little to no way to mitigate opponents alpha/beta strikes.

Again, very vague. The Plasma Cannons can drop with a 36" range, with rerolls they average a single death with overcharge, and then have a 66% chance to fire as they die. Maybe that's not the right move, but you're offering an undefined lethal cloud here.

Without Gman re-rolls grav cannons are middling weapons at best.

Still more effective anti tank than a lascannon. Guilliman costs almost 14 Grav Cannons.

3x fire-raptors + guilliman eat this thing turn 1 (10 wounds per raptor with just the quad-bolters so that's 30 models gone + bolt cannons for another 5 per Fr so thats 45 models gone) or all of your devs and your sternguard leaving you with 3 grav cannons and some plasma to fight back with. You can't hide out of LOS or out of range, you can't move and overcharge plasma so you're not killing a fireraptor a turn so you are tabled as soon as you land your deepstrikers...

The Plasma Cannon drop averages about 22 wounds on a Fire Raptor, actually. So one dies immediately. Firing back as they die, using the banner, they'll continue damaging the second. If I somehow manage to get close with my Chapter Master and Lt, they could potentially knock one out of the sky. Theres 50 other models in my army who can attempt to salvage something.

If I were to be honest though, I don't care about a Guilliman Fire Raptor list. That's just not something I consider important to any discussion about balance. Its like the guy that used to play at my club who almost always plopped a Warhound titan down as part of a 2000 point list, and after I killed it a few times, started bringing a Reaver. I aknowledge that it exists, but I just can't be bothered. also wonder how that list fares against a dedicated Dark Reaper list.

Come to think of it, how do these lists fare against each other?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok - if i misjudged your competition - that's my bad. I have no idea how it goes in your games to be totally and completely honest. Since we're going to PM, maybe we could share batreps back and forth?

I would love to have a game. Are you going to the BAO?

In any case - a lot of the people you're discussing the game with play ITC. So, that would explain why there is a colossal disconnect.

FWIW I am not posting list here because it's a marine thread, and i'd rather not derail it. My list is freely available in the Tyranid tactics thread But i did send the PM

No harm no foul.

No idea about the BAO, that's not for a while right? I haven't done an event like that in a long time, like since 3rd editon long. Might be interesting to try again.

In any case, if we schedule a bit ahead of time I could make it to the east bay. I'm in SF.

Don't the plasma cannons suffer vs -1 to hit trait badly?

 Insectum7 wrote:


I'll post what I'm building towards, which will be about 80.

UM chapter

Captain w/Jump Pack, Thunder hammer
Lt. W/ Jump Pack, Thunder hammer
Company Ancient, Relic Banner
Tactical Squad 10, Grav Cannon, Plasma, Combi-Plasma
Tactical Squad 10, Grav Cannon, Plasma, Combi-Plasma
Tactical Squad 10, Grav Cannon, Plasma, Combi-Plasma
Scouts 10, Heavy Bolter
Sternguard 10, Special Issue Bolters
Devastators 9, Cherub, 4 Plasma Cannons
Devastators 9, Cherub, 4 Plasma Cannons
Devastators 8, Cherub, 4 Plasma Cannons
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Or I drop the Ancient and replace the scouts with another Tac squad, downgrade the Charcters and get different heavy weapons. But thats around where I'll be. Current list is a double battalion but I don't like spending all the points on HQs.

This list is wicked close to being a brigade. All you need is 1 more HQ, 3 HB Attack Bikes (for cheap Fast Attack), and to split the Sternies into 2 squads of 5.

It's an interesting strategy, Insectum. You talk a lot about the shots as the plasma cannons die; have you been able to keep all those weapons within 6" of the banner? That seems like it would be rather tricky to me, since it's models not units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


I'll post what I'm building towards, which will be about 80.

UM chapter

Captain w/Jump Pack, Thunder hammer
Lt. W/ Jump Pack, Thunder hammer
Company Ancient, Relic Banner
Tactical Squad 10, Grav Cannon, Plasma, Combi-Plasma
Tactical Squad 10, Grav Cannon, Plasma, Combi-Plasma
Tactical Squad 10, Grav Cannon, Plasma, Combi-Plasma
Scouts 10, Heavy Bolter
Sternguard 10, Special Issue Bolters
Devastators 9, Cherub, 4 Plasma Cannons
Devastators 9, Cherub, 4 Plasma Cannons
Devastators 8, Cherub, 4 Plasma Cannons
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Or I drop the Ancient and replace the scouts with another Tac squad, downgrade the Charcters and get different heavy weapons. But thats around where I'll be. Current list is a double battalion but I don't like spending all the points on HQs.

This list is wicked close to being a brigade. All you need is 1 more HQ, 3 HB Attack Bikes (for cheap Fast Attack), and to split the Sternies into 2 squads of 5.

As well as 2 more troops units? Or he'd need to split those 10-man ones, which I guess wouldn't necessarily impact the list too much.

 Insectum7 wrote:


No harm no foul.

No idea about the BAO, that's not for a while right? I haven't done an event like that in a long time, like since 3rd editon long. Might be interesting to try again.

In any case, if we schedule a bit ahead of time I could make it to the east bay. I'm in SF.

Are there good places to play in the city?

I haven't really explored there for 40k - i would have to take my minis onto Bart, and i'm not comfortable taking a bag of *anything* through Fruitvale, or any of those blue line spots except Castro lol.

BAO is in July. I'm on the waitlist, if you're thinking about going - i'd get on the waitlist now. If the March update has nerfs to Eldar spots will open up.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


No harm no foul.

No idea about the BAO, that's not for a while right? I haven't done an event like that in a long time, like since 3rd editon long. Might be interesting to try again.

In any case, if we schedule a bit ahead of time I could make it to the east bay. I'm in SF.

Are there good places to play in the city?

I haven't really explored there for 40k - i would have to take my minis onto Bart, and i'm not comfortable taking a bag of *anything* through Fruitvale, or any of those blue line spots except Castro lol.

BAO is in July. I'm on the waitlist, if you're thinking about going - i'd get on the waitlist now. If the March update has nerfs to Eldar spots will open up.

There used to be some shopping center that had a GW shop called the Metro or something like that. I hadn't been to SF in YEARS though, and definitely need to make time to do that since my re-relocation.

 Porphyrius wrote:


As well as 2 more troops units? Or he'd need to split those 10-man ones, which I guess wouldn't necessarily impact the list too much.

Yeah, that.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't the plasma cannons suffer vs -1 to hit trait badly?

With the rerolls not as bad as I initially thought. If we're talking Alaitoc you don't have to overcharge to kill Eldar.

The Plasma obsession is a new thing and I have ro thank you for it, as it grew out of the response to the iG list you posted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Porphyrius wrote:
It's an interesting strategy, Insectum. You talk a lot about the shots as the plasma cannons die; have you been able to keep all those weapons within 6" of the banner? That seems like it would be rather tricky to me, since it's models not units.

They can all drop with the pods (one Dev squad only takes 9 spaces) and getting all the Cannons into the 6" bubble is pretty easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:


Are there good places to play in the city?

I haven't really explored there for 40k - i would have to take my minis onto Bart, and i'm not comfortable taking a bag of *anything* through Fruitvale, or any of those blue line spots except Castro lol.

BAO is in July. I'm on the waitlist, if you're thinking about going - i'd get on the waitlist now. If the March update has nerfs to Eldar spots will open up.

Gamescape SF is my go-to, and is actually walking distance for me. The local scene is pretty vibrant and ranges from fun/casual to some pretty mean lists. Not 3 fire raptors mean (anymore), but there's a nice IG gunline player who also brings a drone heavy Tau Commander mess of things. A healthy smattering of Nids. No Eldar in a while. There are some newer guys that seem more competetive too, it sorta depends on who shows up.

6th and 7th ed. saw more tournament regulars. The crowd during 8th has seen a lot of evolution, for whatever reason.

 Insectum7 wrote:
some really good points [snip].

Let me start by saying thank you for such a well thought out thorough response! I kinda see what you are thinking and it does look like a really fun list to play the way you describe it. Please don't take this the wrong way but I tend to refine my ideas through some back and forth so this is my (not so) humble opinion (and don't play marmatag, he's a cheater and all around terrible person . Kitting my poor marines like that and hiding those stupid gaunts...)

My issues are you are paying 2k points for 55 bolter shots, 12 x d3 plasma that suffer -1 to hit when they move, 6 24" plasma and 3 grav cannons (again -1 to hit). Along with 80ish t4 3+ ish bodies. That amount of fire-power just doesn't get the job done with most of it being tied up in units that suffer a -1 to hit when they move. I feel like this is the crux of the marine problem. You are paying for close combat ability you will never use on all of your troops, you lack mobility because moving and shooting is out and you are forced to castle in a bubble or really lack any offensive fire-power.

I feel like you are ignoring the -1 to hit penalty for your heavy weapons on the drop. Going against anything with a -1 to hit I suffer greatly with marine heavy weapons because that -2 to hit reduces our fire-power soooo much. No overcharging and hitting on 5s has really turned me off from any marine heavy weapons. I don't feel like they really get to shoot until turn 3 and by that time they are mostly removed from the table.

Also it is rare that I get charged by anything that can't kill 10 marines. Meaning fall back and then shoot doesn't really come into play that often. 15 berzerkers hit your lines, charge 2 units (if you are close enough to get that 6" re-roll you are close enough to get consolidated into) to 2 units dead

Same thing with grav v. las. I usually see situations where grav has to move and las can stay still. In this scenario las > grav. Much better if the target doesn't have a 3+ armor save (monsters, nids)

This offense can be gotten for much cheaper and the bodies can be had a lot cheaper too. 55 bolter shots is roughly 2 dark talons (320ish) or even cheaper with mortars/aggressors but whatever, 12d3 deepstriking plasma without the -1 to hit is 6 plasma ceptors (340ish), 12 grav shots with -1 to hit if they move and range of only 24" is worse than 5 assault 2 hellblasters (175 points)

So the offensive out-put of your 2000 point list can be had for less than 1k points. Make them dark angels and dark age those ceptors for Lulz. This is probably my main issue what what you have and again goes to the marines are paying too much for what they are.

Dark talons, sable, shroud, scouts, ceptors, hellblasters, LT on bike out dakkas this list handily for a little over half the points (marine, non MEQ units). More mobility, good board control, good screens and as survivable where it counts (you need 10 las cannons to degrade one of the dark talons 20% chance to kill one and costs a lot of points, 50 bolter equiv shots do 1.8 wounds vs 5.5 to MEQ)

There's not reason to shoot at the squishy marine bodies in your list. If you are withing range for your guns you are within range for enemy guns so anything worth shooting with will be within range to get shot.

I don't think you have enough wounds to win a battle of attrition nor do you have enough offense to win an alpha/beta strike battle. Again highlighting the plight of the marine, not cheap enough for what they do. Bad offensive out-put and not tankey enough. Sisters with storm bolters vs marine with bolters. 55 sisters get you close to twice the shots for 20% less with approx 20% less durability against a range of weapons (and no one is saying sisters are great).

I've been trying to come up with a good MEQ list and I just keep finding myself overpaying for firepower and durability compared to most other options. Best I've come up with is (and I still think it is pretty bad):

Templars
Emp champ
Captain

CS x 4
SB w/ combi-plas
heavy bolter
special weapon w/ plas
2x neos
2x initis

Cynobyte Servitors (moral immunity + need another on table drop...)

culexus
callidus

RG
captian JP
lt jp

scouts x3
sb + cs
4x bolters

Van vets x1 (SftS)
7x 2x CS + JP

stern guard x1 (SftS)
7x SI BG

Dev squad x2 (SftS)
cherub, 2x grav, 1x plas, 3x marines

Dev squad x 1(SftS)
cherub, 2x grav, 2x marines.

Dev Squad x1 (sfts)
cherub, 2x plas, 2x marines

March the crusader squads up the field, van vets cause problems in enemy lines, scouts wrap a defensible spot mid field where stern guard and dev squad can dig in and do what they can. But I feel like doing this is intentionally handicapping my list and removing a lot of fire power and survive ability... [edit formatting]

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Don't the plasma cannons suffer vs -1 to hit trait badly?

With the rerolls not as bad as I initially thought. If we're talking Alaitoc you don't have to overcharge to kill Eldar.

The Plasma obsession is a new thing and I have ro thank you for it, as it grew out of the response to the iG list you posted...

The point of overcharged-plasma-spam is that the one gun is a reasonably cost-effective answer to a lot of targets. If you're fighting people who have the ability to put out to-hit penalties on tough vehicles (like Alaitoc, for instance) you may want to have some other anti-armour waiting in the wings, just in case.

(Though it's kind of a moot point with Eldar, since the major advantage of overcharging (D2) literally doesn't work on Wave Serpents (who reduce incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1), so overcharging gets you one better to wound at the cost of a dramatically increased chance of exploding.)

And sometimes it's worth it; preventing a Vertus unit from running into your lines is worth any number of overheat deaths. (I had a game I lost that way; my opponent shoved three Hellblaster squads' worth of overcharged fire down my bikes' throats, lost something like eight models to overheats, but completely cleared the board of jetbikes doing it.)

bananathug wrote:
and don't play marmatag, he's a cheater and all around terrible person . Kitting my poor marines like that and hiding those stupid gaunts...

lol the salt level is high

A Dev squad with 4 plasma and 4 extra guys costs 206, plus the pod another 85 for 291 for 1 unit.

I'd look at Inceptors to be honest 2 D3 shots more but only 177, and for the cost of those Dev units plus the pods you could have 4 Inceptor squads with plasma and still save points.

I assume people are gonna get mad for me bringing up primaris when the purpose of this thread is whether or not the stat line can be saved, but still.

No, because a legit role for the meq statline is to fill in gaps in Primaris lists. At least in my view.

 fraser1191 wrote:
A Dev squad with 4 plasma and 4 extra guys costs 206, plus the pod another 85 for 291 for 1 unit.

I'd look at Inceptors to be honest 2 D3 shots more but only 177, and for the cost of those Dev units plus the pods you could have 4 Inceptor squads with plasma and still save points.

I assume people are gonna get mad for me bringing up primaris when the purpose of this thread is whether or not the stat line can be saved, but still.

A few reasons.

A: The Devs have longer range
B: I dont always want to drop the devs, lots of the time it may be better to castle them, and drop plasma Tacs and Sternguard instead.
C: I think the Devs are tougher-ish
D: The pod allows me to bring the banner
E: They look better and I already have a bunch painted

~F: Pods afford an interesting capacity to create physical barriers. Which is an extreme case, but sometimes relevant.

Martel732 wrote:
No, because a legit role for the meq statline is to fill in gaps in Primaris lists. At least in my view.

That's basically what I've been doing. Balancing out the lack of choice from Primaris is unfortunately what normies have been relegated to.

Insectum your army has lots of synergy, shooting is king. I can see why you’re doing well plus you like SM.

/thumbsup

Rocmistro wrote:
WS and Strength, on models that will never be able to leverage those stats, are wasted points.

If you're incapable of using your WS and Str on tactical marines, I don't think I can help you.

To be fair, Tactical marines are better at range than they are at CQC.

 Melissia wrote:

Rocmistro wrote:
WS and Strength, on models that will never be able to leverage those stats, are wasted points.

If you're incapable of using your WS and Str on tactical marines, I don't think I can help you.

You mean with the one attack they have? If you really think they can do that, wait until I've blown your mind with the Assault Marine entry!

Intercessors are capable in Meele. Tacticals, if the Sargeant has a Power Sword... they can do some work.

 Galas wrote:
Intercessors are capable in Meele. Tacticals, if the Sargeant has a Power Sword... they can do some work.

The sergeant does nothing in Tactical Squads due to how power weapons work now.

I won't argue against the Intercessor Sergeant with a Power Sword as that's a 22 point model. No way to get to actual combat but hey at least the power weapons are cheap now right?

My intercessors are in the back line camping objetives and they end up in meele many, many times, because as they are camping behind LOS blocking terrain, the enemy needs to charge them to kill them.
Literally in my last game they spend 3 turns inside a small house, taking the objetive that I put outside of it into the wall, and they end up fighting through the door agaisnt 14 Genestealers. They did end up winning like Protoss templars vs Zerglings, stoping them at the door of the small house, so only 6 genestealers could fight agaisnt 5 Intercessors.