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 Niiai wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Default is unchanged - aka Space Marines being as they are right this moment.

But if I ask 'Why can not space marines be based upon females' you responce is 'that is the current setting'. Is that correct?

I'd say the laws of the setting dictate that such a thing is improbable to the point of impossibility.

Your response, as would be the only natural one to that question, is "we shouldn't we change the lore" - my response would be "why should we?" Yours is then the statement which requires evidence. After all - as the status quo, mine doesn't need validation, because it's the default.

So the reasons why there no space marines can not be based upon females are this, please clearify if I am missrepresenting you here:

- I'd say the laws of the setting dictate that such a thing is improbable to the point of impossibility.
- It is currently in the setting.

Is that correct? I am not trying to lure you into anything here. I just want to uderstand you clearly.

Those are my personal main reasons, yes. I can't speak for everyone, mind, but my main reasons are that the rules of the setting say so, and I see no reason to change that, because, as I see it, "what isn't broken doesn't need to be fixed".

Do not mistake this as some kind of sexism or avoidance of female models - I'm a staunch advocate for better female representation where the setting would encourage it (Guardsmen, Eldar, Sisters, etc etc).
Why we've not had plastic sisters is a wonder to me, and not the good kind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kastelen wrote:
There are two ways I can think of GW could introduce female marines and/or custodes.

1. They were already here and basically all the fluff needs to be rewritten.

2. They're made by cawl or someone else. Why would cawl test gene seed on women?

For what it's worth, I oppose female Astartes, but female Custodes sounds amazing to me. I'd love if GW gave us the clear on that.

 kastelen wrote:
There are two ways I can think of GW could introduce female marines and/or custodes.

1. They were already here and basically all the fluff needs to be rewritten.

2. They're made by cawl or someone else. Why would cawl test gene seed on women?

1. works for Custodes just fine. There is very little established fluff about them and unlike with Space Marines it has never been explicitly stated that the process doesn't work on women.

Whilst I personally don't feel that retconning in female Marines would be a huge deal, I somehow suspect that there is non-insignificant amount of people who feel otherwise, so something like 2. would probably work better. Perhaps just state that there are some divergent chapters who have been provided with experimental gene-seed that works on women, but most chapters won't use it. That way the overall idea of the marines being usually men would be preserved, while officially sanctioning the possibility of making make female or mixed-gender custom chapters.

 kastelen wrote:
There are two ways I can think of GW could introduce female marines and/or custodes.

1. They were already here and basically all the fluff needs to be rewritten.

2. They're made by cawl or someone else. Why would cawl test gene seed on women?

This such a great question! Because we come full circle! It is very suptly hintet at, or at least it can be interpeded in a way, that the females on fenris can kick ass. And further speculation followed that since SW home system is in a spot of trouble after the 1000 Sons operations in the system the SW would need some sort of intervention. Could such a thing be Cawl tweaking the genseed so that SW can be recruited from among wimen on Fenris. This I belive started this whole thread, and from where I stand it would be a very cool option on option 2. Although it would mean that I would not see any cool female chaos space marines for some time.

Keep in mind that space wolves can only recruit from Fenris (as far as I know?) SW on other places just turned into very odd where wolf like creatures and was deemed a bad idea. SW are one of the most unortodox chapters out there, so make them even more unique snow flakes. It's that cold on Fenris.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Spoiler:

 Niiai wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Default is unchanged - aka Space Marines being as they are right this moment.

But if I ask 'Why can not space marines be based upon females' you responce is 'that is the current setting'. Is that correct?

I'd say the laws of the setting dictate that such a thing is improbable to the point of impossibility.

Your response, as would be the only natural one to that question, is "we shouldn't we change the lore" - my response would be "why should we?" Yours is then the statement which requires evidence. After all - as the status quo, mine doesn't need validation, because it's the default.

So the reasons why there no space marines can not be based upon females are this, please clearify if I am missrepresenting you here:

- I'd say the laws of the setting dictate that such a thing is improbable to the point of impossibility.
- It is currently in the setting.

Is that correct? I am not trying to lure you into anything here. I just want to uderstand you clearly.

Those are my personal main reasons, yes. I can't speak for everyone, mind, but my main reasons are that the rules of the setting say so, and I see no reason to change that, because, as I see it, "what isn't broken doesn't need to be fixed".

Do not mistake this as some kind of sexism or avoidance of female models - I'm a staunch advocate for better female representation where the setting would encourage it (Guardsmen, Eldar, Sisters, etc etc).
Why we've not had plastic sisters is a wonder to me, and not the good kind.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kastelen wrote:
There are two ways I can think of GW could introduce female marines and/or custodes.

1. They were already here and basically all the fluff needs to be rewritten.

2. They're made by cawl or someone else. Why would cawl test gene seed on women?

For what it's worth, I oppose female Astartes, but female Custodes sounds amazing to me. I'd love if GW gave us the clear on that.

Thanks you Sgt_Smudge I feel this thread has been much more productive then most other threads so far.

I agree with your earlier statement that if I want to claim some form of reforming of the setting I am making a posetive claim and we would need to put my posetive statement and compare it to the other posetive statement and make a judgement in comparison between that. While I belive that such an argument weight heavaly on one side (and you think it weights heavaly on the other side) I do not want to poke that particular bear in this thread, as that always turns into a metaphorical nuclear apocalypse of a thread.

That being said the setting has been retconned before before, both in a progress of the timeline and in retroactivly changing something already established in the setting. (Examples include the minor nid changes in every codex, the major change in the necron codex and the timeline jump over the last 100 years in game time.) The setting will change again, it always does. I am holding fingers crossed for female space marines.

The harsh reality of Space Marines being exclusively male is that in general, we are the throwaway gender.

Many, many more of us can be submitted to a meatgrinder of a war before the continuation of the human race becomes an issue. Especially in a soldier-class that has a high failure rate just in creation, so not ending up with a high return on your time investment in female Space Marines would be a double- failure.

Female troops equipped like Sisters of Battle, where they end up with a very high percentage of the combat capabilities of a male Space Marine but without the drawbacks, just makes more sense.

Frankly, in a setting other than Warhammer 40k, it makes sense for male troops, too.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Going "nope, girls can be marines too now!" would undermine that aspect, and they'll just be yet another superhuman without any of the thematic elements.

What thematic element? It used to be about Marines being warrior-monks, and it came to Marines being angel-analogs, and we already have in setting at least one very obvious angel-analog who is a female model so I'm a bit lost.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Female Space Marines would give GW an excuse to further ignore the Sisters of Battle

So you mean that female space marines wouldn't change anything for Sisters of Battle because Sisters of Battle already get nothing ?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How is that the default position? The default position is that the setting remain unchanged.

That's not neutral, that's text-book conservatism. Neutral would be “I don't care whether or not the settings change”. And given how much the setting has changed lately, it's too late for it to stay the same…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How is that the default position? The default position is that the setting remain unchanged.

That's not neutral, that's text-book conservatism. Neutral would be “I don't care whether or not the settings change”. And given how much the setting has changed lately, it's too late for it to stay the same…

Not really, saying that you'd rather keep the setting the same as it always was is the neutral thing. Saying you don't care is apathetic, not neutral.

 kastelen wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How is that the default position? The default position is that the setting remain unchanged.

That's not neutral, that's text-book conservatism. Neutral would be “I don't care whether or not the settings change”. And given how much the setting has changed lately, it's too late for it to stay the same…

Not really, saying that you'd rather keep the setting the same as it always was is the neutral thing. Saying you don't care is apathetic, not neutral.

Dont fight his argument with Logic! you cad!

In all respect to those who do not wish for females to be marines , I can get where you're coming from. but since this is a fictitious universe where we have magic, elves, Orks, etc it doesn't matter what one group does or does not want. GW can do whatever they feel like would make them the most money, fluff is not set in stone. if you really have a problem with female marines I don't know what to tell you. I don't like what they did with star wars, but I'm not going to waste time/effort thinking about something I literally have no control over. GW squatted my Squats a long time ago and I was (13) and really really pissed, but I got over it and realized that it wasn't gonna change due to me wanting it. if you don't want female space marines, nobody is holding a volkite charger to your head. I would happily include them in my army, but I would much much rather have plastic sisters.

Now i do understand where the vehemence comes from and if you are that broken up about it....go play with something else.

 Crimson wrote:

 kastelen wrote:
There are two ways I can think of GW could introduce female marines and/or custodes.

1. They were already here and basically all the fluff needs to be rewritten.

2. They're made by cawl or someone else. Why would cawl test gene seed on women?

1. works for Custodes just fine. There is very little established fluff about them and unlike with Space Marines it has never been explicitly stated that the process doesn't work on women.

While it doesn't explicitly state the process doesn't work on women, the current AC book does specifically call out the sons of the noble households on Terra being submitted for suitability, even entire generations of them.

It wouldn't take much to tweak that, and it was an odd call to write it like that, but that is how it is described at present.

 Dysartes wrote:

While it doesn't explicitly state the process doesn't work on women, the current AC book does specifically call out the sons of the noble households on Terra being submitted for suitability, even entire generations of them.

It wouldn't take much to tweak that, and it was an odd call to write it like that, but that is how it is described at present.

I know and it is unfortunate. But it is less explicit that with marines. it is more like with Imperial Knights, with which the first codex said that the pilots are sons of the knightly households, but that got changed by the next codex.

Racerguy180 wrote:
In all respect to those who do not wish for females to be marines , I can get where you're coming from. but since this is a fictitious universe where we have magic, elves, Orks, etc it doesn't matter what one group does or does not want. GW can do whatever they feel like would make them the most money, fluff is not set in stone. if you really have a problem with female marines I don't know what to tell you. I don't like what they did with star wars, but I'm not going to waste time/effort thinking about something I literally have no control over. GW squatted my Squats a long time ago and I was (13) and really really pissed, but I got over it and realized that it wasn't gonna change due to me wanting it. if you don't want female space marines, nobody is holding a volkite charger to your head. I would happily include them in my army, but I would much much rather have plastic sisters.

Now i do understand where the vehemence comes from and if you are that broken up about it....go play with something else.

Wow... such arrogance, such condescension, and I bet your not even self aware enough to see what you have done here and probably think what you have said is totally fine

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The harsh reality of Space Marines being exclusively male is that in general, we are the throwaway gender.

Many, many more of us can be submitted to a meatgrinder of a war before the continuation of the human race becomes an issue. Especially in a soldier-class that has a high failure rate just in creation, so not ending up with a high return on your time investment in female Space Marines would be a double- failure.

Female troops equipped like Sisters of Battle, where they end up with a very high percentage of the combat capabilities of a male Space Marine but without the drawbacks, just makes more sense.

Frankly, in a setting other than Warhammer 40k, it makes sense for male troops, too.

This is a good point I think (purely fluff driven which is good imho) and one that may tend to be overlooked because it gets perhaps a bit TOO grimdark.

Men can't make more humans, women can, and very few man can get a great many women pregnant. When humans are the greatest resource in the imperium, sending women who could possible be creating new soldiers into a process that very few aspirants survive at all, to become a super soldier seems like a waste. At least if they serve as guardsmen they can still get pregnant. It sounds crass and vulgar but it's really just a numbers game in the end and men are more of a disposable resource as far as continuation of the species than women. Pretty much the only reason Sisters of Battle exist as an entirely female military branch is because the Imperial Cult likes wordplay and couldn't have and MEN-at-arms in its service.

Personally I'm all for women being in the Imperial Guard, PDF (seriously beyond plastic greatcoat troops, wtf GW give us female guardsmen) what have you cause it makes me think of the Soviet Union in WWII which seems appropriate for those factions, but at least those women are fertile throughout their careers and retirement as far as the Imperium is concerned. Once again sorry if I ruffle feathers but trying to stick strictly with the fluff on this one (this is the background forum after all).

There are so many women it doesn't really make a difference. You could take 5 women for each Marine and not make a dent in the overall amount.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Going "nope, girls can be marines too now!" would undermine that aspect, and they'll just be yet another superhuman without any of the thematic elements.

What thematic element? It used to be about Marines being warrior-monks, and it came to Marines being angel-analogs, and we already have in setting at least one very obvious angel-analog who is a female model so I'm a bit lost.

Sorry, I wasn't quite clear with my points about the portrayal of angels. I did not mean to say that all angels were male, I meant to say that Archangels, such as Michael, tended to be portrayed as male. Today archangels tend to have male pronouns, in art Michael is often portrayed as male, albeit with a feminine face (it seems it was a trend back then to give noble characters feminine faces, like that one painting of Louis XIV as Jupiter), and in Paradise Lost Michael was referred to with male pronouns. As Michael is the archetypical warrior angel as well as having the title of angel of death, it would seem likely that GW took inspiration from him whilst creating the marines as the Angels of Death.
Its also likely that marines are both warrior-monks as well as being archangel-analogues. They are a mix of things, after all. Nothing to stop them from being both.
I do not agree that they are a blank slate, as that would imply they possess no unifying characteristics. They are all male, genetically engineered super soldiers with religious and monastic undertones.

Celestine, to me, looks like a Jeanne D'arc analogue with strong angelic themes. I mean, you have the Fleur De Lys motif, which is a French symbol, Celestine inspires her soldiers, just as Jeanne did and was believed to have been personally touched by the Emperor himself, just as Jeanne.
Now, whilst Jeanne D'arc wasn't an angel per se, she is a saint, just like Celestine. The angel wings are so that she stands out as a particularly "holy" character, so that she stands out from every other model and ties with the theme about being an embodiment of the Emperor's will, something that descended from heaven. There's also the Angel of Mons legend, wherein Joanne D'arc came down as an angel to help British soldiers, which was most likely a strong source of inspiration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels_of_Mons

In May 1915 a full-blown controversy was erupting, with the angels being used as proof of the action of divine providence on the side of the Allies in sermons across Britain, and then spreading into newspaper reports published widely across the world. Machen, bemused by all this, attempted to end the rumours by republishing the story in August in book form, with a long preface stating the rumours were false and originated in his story. It became a bestseller, and resulted in a vast series of other publications claiming to provide evidence of the Angels' existence.[1] Machen tried to set the record straight, but any attempt to lessen the impact of such an inspiring story was seen as bordering on treason by some. These new publications included popular songs and artists' renderings of the angels. There were more reports of angels and apparitions from the front including Joan of Arc.

So while one can say that GW designed the marines to be themed after archangels, Celestine was designed to be a Jeanne D'arc Angel.

Speaking of Sisters of Battle, they are an all female faction, right? Wouldn't it make sense to have a all male faction to run parallel to that? Marines are an elite force of all powered armored men. Sisters are a elite force of powered armored women. That's kind of their theme. You also see that with the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence; one is all male, the other is all female, both were personally formed and hand picked by the Emperor himself to serve as his elite cadre, the Talons of the Emperor.
Suddenly making one of them mixed would ruin that parallel, and I don't think that's a good thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

agurus1 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The harsh reality of Space Marines being exclusively male is that in general, we are the throwaway gender.

Many, many more of us can be submitted to a meatgrinder of a war before the continuation of the human race becomes an issue. Especially in a soldier-class that has a high failure rate just in creation, so not ending up with a high return on your time investment in female Space Marines would be a double- failure.

Female troops equipped like Sisters of Battle, where they end up with a very high percentage of the combat capabilities of a male Space Marine but without the drawbacks, just makes more sense.

Frankly, in a setting other than Warhammer 40k, it makes sense for male troops, too.

This is a good point I think (purely fluff driven which is good imho) and one that may tend to be overlooked because it gets perhaps a bit TOO grimdark.

Men can't make more humans, women can, and very few man can get a great many women pregnant. When humans are the greatest resource in the imperium, sending women who could possible be creating new soldiers into a process that very few aspirants survive at all, to become a super soldier seems like a waste. At least if they serve as guardsmen they can still get pregnant. It sounds crass and vulgar but it's really just a numbers game in the end and men are more of a disposable resource as far as continuation of the species than women. Pretty much the only reason Sisters of Battle exist as an entirely female military branch is because the Imperial Cult likes wordplay and couldn't have and MEN-at-arms in its service.

Personally I'm all for women being in the Imperial Guard, PDF (seriously beyond plastic greatcoat troops, wtf GW give us female guardsmen) what have you cause it makes me think of the Soviet Union in WWII which seems appropriate for those factions, but at least those women are fertile throughout their careers and retirement as far as the Imperium is concerned. Once again sorry if I ruffle feathers but trying to stick strictly with the fluff on this one (this is the background forum after all).

huh, yeah, that does make sense. Wasn't there a Cadian thing where women were allowed to take leave so they can have babies to keep the recruitment pool going? Can't do that with Marines. They're infertile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How is that the default position? The default position is that the setting remain unchanged.

That's not neutral, that's text-book conservatism. Neutral would be “I don't care whether or not the settings change”. And given how much the setting has changed lately, it's too late for it to stay the same…

Good thing I didn't say neutral, I said default.
So because the setting changed it means it should keep getting changed for the sake of change? Are you a servant of Tzeentch or something?
Its not too late to stay the same. Just don't keep changing it. You might as well say "well, Lucas introduced midochrolorians, thus changing how the force is supposed to work. Might as well give Yoda a gundam"

There aren't enough Marines, even pre-Heresy, compared to the Imperium's total population, for it to make any difference whether you recruit just boys or girls too. Humanity isn't going to die out because you take a (relative) handful of girls out of the gene pool to make more Marines. Even on the scale of a single planet per chapter, we're talking trivial numbers.

The whole "men are the expendable gender" argument is bunk in the context of the 40K Imperium. Nobody spares civilians anyway, so refusing to arm women, or refusing to augment them to make them better fighters won't save them from dieing horribly. The opposite is more likely to be true.

The only in-setting argument for Marines being exclusively male that makes sense to me is that the Emperor designed Astartes geneseed to only work on boys. Not because males are more expendable, or even because they're innately stronger or tougher (because that cannot plausibly be true across every world in the Imperium after tens of thousands of years of divergent evolution), but because the Emperor wanted Astartes to be unable to procreate independently. Astartes were intended as a tool, to serve Humanity, not a superior being that might replace it.

Self propagating Astartes, hmmm, screw that, lets make them male and then stop their junk from working.

Seems legit!

Either way all i see here is people demanding that 40k conforms to THEIR idea of how it should work, and anyone that disagrees is backward, sexist or stupid.... great way to win over people to your side of the argument

 Formosa wrote:
Self propagating Astartes, hmmm, screw that, lets make them male and then stop their junk from working.

Seems legit!

Either way all i see here is people demanding that 40k conforms to THEIR idea of how it should work, and anyone that disagrees is backward, sexist or stupid.... great way to win over people to your side of the argument

Wait, don't they already self propagate in a way? I mean, that's technically what the progenoid gland is for, right? To make more marines from a marine?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Self propagating Astartes, hmmm, screw that, lets make them male and then stop their junk from working.

Seems legit!

Either way all i see here is people demanding that 40k conforms to THEIR idea of how it should work, and anyone that disagrees is backward, sexist or stupid.... great way to win over people to your side of the argument

Wait, don't they already self propagate in a way? I mean, that's technically what the progenoid gland is for, right? To make more marines from a marine?

Its not the same as a woman getting knocked up and making a "natural" marine, the gene seed process is very complicated (probably purposefully so).

Imagine if marines could "reproduce" in such a manner, a woman finds some lucky (or unlucky) bloke for Snu Snu and suddenly you have a self replicating species of Astartes (if its possible to reproduce with a normal human that is)

Oh that's what you mean by self replication. You mean in terms sexual reproduction.
When I hear self replication, I think more in terms of mitosis or asexual reproduction.

 Formosa wrote:

Imagine if marines could "reproduce" in such a manner, a woman finds some lucky (or unlucky) bloke for Snu Snu and suddenly you have a self replicating species of Astartes (if its possible to reproduce with a normal human that is)

Or alternatively, a male astartes coming onto a human woman. And considering how the astartes tend to recruit from barbaric worlds...well, as you imagine the implication isn't pretty.
Perhaps that's why they decided to write them in as sterile, to avoid such implications.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Speaking of Sisters of Battle, they are an all female faction, right? Wouldn't it make sense to have a all male faction to run parallel to that? Marines are an elite force of all powered armored men. Sisters are a elite force of powered armored women. That's kind of their theme.

In theory, one could say that's fair, but in practice it isn't. Marines are posterboys of the setting, there several different codices dedicated to them, they get more new models than other factions and most of the fluff is about them. Sisters on the other hand are completely neglected line with most models being decades old. So if these factions would have even somewhat comparable prominence in the game and in the setting then you might have a point, but that is not even remotely the case.


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 Duskweaver wrote:

The only in-setting argument for Marines being exclusively male that makes sense to me is that the Emperor designed Astartes geneseed to only work on boys. Not because males are more expendable, or even because they're innately stronger or tougher (because that cannot plausibly be true across every world in the Imperium after tens of thousands of years of divergent evolution), but because the Emperor wanted Astartes to be unable to procreate independently. Astartes were intended as a tool, to serve Humanity, not a superior being that might replace it.

Considering that the marine organs are implanted after the birth, and not based on the person's normal DNA, I really don't think that marineness would be an inheritable quality. Even if marines could have children, those children would be normal humans.

 Crimson wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Speaking of Sisters of Battle, they are an all female faction, right? Wouldn't it make sense to have a all male faction to run parallel to that? Marines are an elite force of all powered armored men. Sisters are a elite force of powered armored women. That's kind of their theme.

In theory, one could say that's fair, but in practice it isn't. Marines are posterboys of the setting, there several different codices dedicated to them, they get more new models than other factions and most of the fluff is about them. Sisters on the other hand are completely neglected line with most models being decades old. So if these factions would have even somewhat comparable prominence in the game and in the setting then you might have a point, but that is not even remotely the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

The only in-setting argument for Marines being exclusively male that makes sense to me is that the Emperor designed Astartes geneseed to only work on boys. Not because males are more expendable, or even because they're innately stronger or tougher (because that cannot plausibly be true across every world in the Imperium after tens of thousands of years of divergent evolution), but because the Emperor wanted Astartes to be unable to procreate independently. Astartes were intended as a tool, to serve Humanity, not a superior being that might replace it.

Considering that the marine organs are implanted after the birth, and not based on the person's normal DNA, I really don't think that marineness would be an inheritable quality. Even if marines could have children, those children would be normal humans.

The book Fulgrim shows that its very much dependent on the DNA of the Hosts, but thats more to do with organ compatibility than anything else really.

Also the DNA is clearly changed in the hosts, it changes features, brain chemistry etc. all these are determined by DNA, so I doubt it would produce Humans, more likely it would produce some mutant hybrid of the two, which would make for an interesting story in its own right.

 Crimson wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Speaking of Sisters of Battle, they are an all female faction, right? Wouldn't it make sense to have a all male faction to run parallel to that? Marines are an elite force of all powered armored men. Sisters are a elite force of powered armored women. That's kind of their theme.

In theory, one could say that's fair, but in practice it isn't. Marines are posterboys of the setting, there several different codices dedicated to them, they get more new models than other factions and most of the fluff is about them. Sisters on the other hand are completely neglected line with most models being decades old. So if these factions would have even somewhat comparable prominence in the game and in the setting then you might have a point, but that is not even remotely the case.

Wouldn't the more logical solution be then to promote Sororitas rather than ruining the parallel? Its not as if Sisters are completely forgotten. Wasn't there a series of novel about them in 2015, Hammer and Anvil, I believe it was called? Whilst they are in dire need of a complete plastic release, they did at least receive Celestine in plastic, their most iconic character.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Speaking of Sisters of Battle, they are an all female faction, right? Wouldn't it make sense to have a all male faction to run parallel to that? Marines are an elite force of all powered armored men. Sisters are a elite force of powered armored women. That's kind of their theme.

In theory, one could say that's fair, but in practice it isn't. Marines are posterboys of the setting, there several different codices dedicated to them, they get more new models than other factions and most of the fluff is about them. Sisters on the other hand are completely neglected line with most models being decades old. So if these factions would have even somewhat comparable prominence in the game and in the setting then you might have a point, but that is not even remotely the case.

Wouldn't the more logical solution be then to promote Sororitas rather than ruining the parallel? Its not as if Sisters are completely forgotten. Wasn't there a series of novel about them in 2015, Hammer and Anvil, I believe it was called? Whilst they are in dire need of a complete plastic release, they did at least receive Celestine in plastic, their most iconic character.

My thoughts exactly.

Promote SoB, reduce SM exposure (although seeing as they ARE the more recognisable GW property, this would need to be carefully moderated), and add female models where the lore supports it.

There's no need to change the lore - it's the real world stuff that's the issue.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Wouldn't the more logical solution be then to promote Sororitas rather than ruining the parallel?

I'm not sure it would be inherently more logical, but it would indeed be a fine approach.

It can't be not noted that the all male marines are predominant and the all female sisters less so...

But the playing base is vastly male, too. We sell a lot of male models, to a lot of men.

A few are women, and some of them play sisters. Some of the men play sisters too, and some of the women play not sisters.

But ultimately the predominance of marine sales matches the predominance of male fans.

Isn't the arguement that plastic sisters won't happen based on the fact GW doesn't sell that many sisters? [And never did?] People have always been able to buy female power armour, but they don't buy it anywhere near as much as the male power armour, even when they were both equally old. If the sales supported the data otherwise, we'd all be here whining about why we can't have male sisters of battle, and why the Space Marine range is long overdue a plastic release.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It can't be not noted that the all male marines are predominant and the all female sisters less so...

But the playing base is vastly male, too. We sell a lot of male models, to a lot of men.

A few are women, and some of them play sisters. Some of the men play sisters too, and some of the women play not sisters.

But ultimately the predominance of marine sales matches the predominance of male fans.

Isn't the arguement that plastic sisters won't happen based on the fact GW doesn't sell that many sisters? [And never did?] People have always been able to buy female power armour, but they don't buy it anywhere near as much as the male power armour, even when they were both equally old. If the sales supported the data otherwise, we'd all be here whining about why we can't have male sisters of battle, and why the Space Marine range is long overdue a plastic release.

They don't sell many sisters because there aren't plastic sisters. Its hard to buy an army when its disproportionately more expensive than the other ranges due to still being metal and not even being in stores.

I tried, really, really hard to repeatedly reference that the sales figures [As admitted by GW] for metal sisters were bad _When other lines were comprable_. Sisters havn't been made plastic because no-one has been that interested in them, compared to the other factions.

While at present one can go, 'Yeah but they're not plastic so...' Historically other armies also had sisters, and they still wern't popular then.

I mean. It doesn't even seem like you read the post before you replied there.

Or are you seriously saying that if sisters were plastic, they'd be the new Marines?

No, I'm saying that if there were plastic sisters in the same level of quality as their more recent releases, there might be a noticeable increase of sales and as well new sisters players. I'm saying there may be an increase, not that they will eclipse marines. I don't know how you reached that conclusion, but I doubt they, like any other army, will surpass marine sales in the long term.

Also, would you not speculate that due to the release of Daughters of Khaine and Sisters of Silence, it might be viable to make a predominantly female faction? If its possible for them, I don't see why it wouldn't work for SoB.

 Formosa wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
In all respect to those who do not wish for females to be marines , I can get where you're coming from. but since this is a fictitious universe where we have magic, elves, Orks, etc it doesn't matter what one group does or does not want. GW can do whatever they feel like would make them the most money, fluff is not set in stone. if you really have a problem with female marines I don't know what to tell you. I don't like what they did with star wars, but I'm not going to waste time/effort thinking about something I literally have no control over. GW squatted my Squats a long time ago and I was (13) and really really pissed, but I got over it and realized that it wasn't gonna change due to me wanting it. if you don't want female space marines, nobody is holding a volkite charger to your head. I would happily include them in my army, but I would much much rather have plastic sisters.

Now i do understand where the vehemence comes from and if you are that broken up about it....go play with something else.

Wow... such arrogance, such condescension, and I bet your not even self aware enough to see what you have done here and probably think what you have said is totally fine

text removed.

Reds8n

You couldn't have proven my point any better than you just did


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No, I'm saying that if there were plastic sisters in the same level of quality as their more recent releases, there might be a noticeable increase of sales and as well new sisters players. I'm saying there may be an increase, not that they will eclipse marines. I don't know how you reached that conclusion, but I doubt they, like any other army, will surpass marine sales in the long term.

Also, would you not speculate that due to the release of Daughters of Khaine and Sisters of Silence, it might be viable to make a predominantly female faction? If its possible for them, I don't see why it wouldn't work for SoB.

It would work for sisters, for so many reasons but the main one being that it's a NEW army, yep it would be NEW, the radical change that sisters need across the entire range would mean just that, I would snap up plastic sisters as long as they were old school grim dark looking and not modern cartoon GW style.