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Mandragola wrote:

changemod wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
The point of the knight lance rule is to stop you getting 3cp for bringing 2 armigers. Armigers aren’t cp batteries. That’s fine.

So you can take a knight on his own as an auxiliary detachment. 0cp and not a character.

Add a couple of armigers and you still don’t get 0 cps but you can make a knight a character.

Add two proper knights and you get your cps.

The IG battalion is not fine. That doesn’t mean other stuff should be broken to keep up. And you can get 3 knights for ~1200pts, so plenty of room for other stuff, including a battalion of anything but custodes if you want.

You’re calling a hypothetical 3CP for the same points range guard can farm 15 “keeping up”?

That’s exactly the opposite of what I’m saying. I’m saying that just because IG get tons of cps it doesn’t mean that everyone should. One thing being broken is not a reason to break everything.

FWIW I think there’s a decent case for using admech for your battalion, rather than IG. A couple of enginseers and 15 rangers or vanguard come to just over 200pts. You get to use the knight of the cog stratagem, which I like, and the enginseers can patch up your knights a bit. Stygies guys can infiltrate to make a nuisance of themselves.

Armigers shouldn’t really be lords of war. They are, so that they can be taken in an IK army that’s made of super-heavy detachments. But you don’t get the credit for taking 3 superheavies unless you take real superheavies.

Personally, i'm leaning more towards Imperialis Knights rather than Mechanicus Knights, so Knight of the Cog won't help me out. I'm planning on running a tech-priest as well, within 1 of the Guard battalions due to it only costing 42 points. Mistake - Guard Tech-Priest won't be able to repair a non-Mechanicus Knight :(

Mandragola wrote:
The point of the knight lance rule is to stop you getting 3cp for bringing 2 armigers. Armigers aren’t cp batteries. That’s fine.

So you can take a knight on his own as an auxiliary detachment. 0cp and not a character.

Add a couple of armigers and you still don’t get 0 cps but you can make a knight a character.

Add two proper knights and you get your cps.

The IG battalion is not fine. That doesn’t mean other stuff should be broken to keep up. And you can get 3 knights for ~1200pts, so plenty of room for other stuff, including a battalion of anything but custodes if you want.

Armigers are hardly broken forcp. 480pts minimum. How many armies have to pay over 1000 pts for 3 cp? Answer. Just knights.

Balance is out of whack with this. Gw just wants to force knight armies to buy ig

Concise codex review up at Ye Olde Battle Reps containing strats, relics, traits etc: https://youtu.be/9ahUR_Kcyds

tneva82 wrote:

Armigers are hardly broken forcp. 480pts minimum. How many armies have to pay over 1000 pts for 3 cp? Answer. Just knights.

Balance is out of whack with this. Gw just wants to force knight armies to buy ig

Yeah, it's a bit weird. It'd rather have people (and Knights players in particular) use Armigers to stock up on some CP instead of the inevitable Guard Battalion. But it's not a huge deal either.

The whole CP thing is still ass-backwards IMO. It should be small, elite, low-model count armies like all Terminator Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Deathwatch, pure Harlequins, Assassins only or whatnot, that are swimming in CP for fighting weird black-ops style battles, while filling the board with 4 or 5 point models should be the lowest command-point armies in the game, both background wise because hordes of less-trained chaff are "harder" to command and because they use numbers of bodies/guns/teeth-and-claws to win instead of being super-sneaky-strategic.

The lance restriction doesn’t solve any problems nor is there any problem for it to solve. You still need 3 units for a SH detachment and 3cp wasn’t that great anyway. I saw no list that would be a problem in anyway taking pure knights. In fact the strongest list were guard and knights together.

Personally even if they didn’t want a pure Armiger SH detachment they should have required a single knight (plus 2 armigers) in a SH detachment to grant command points.
And even this setup is still -650 points for a gallant and 2 hellingers which are the cheapest setup and would only give 6 CP. Again nothing here is a problem in any meta and it’s actually fluffy and how Knights houses are supposed to be setup.

If GW bring over the new rule for AoS-2.0 to 40k Knights might have a decent CP buffer. The one where for every 50 points you don't spend on stuff you get 1 CP. Would help balance out a bit I think.

Slashy McTalons wrote:
Concise codex review up at Ye Olde Battle Reps containing strats, relics, traits etc: https://youtu.be/9ahUR_Kcyds

So, when i first started watching this i wasn't sure about it, but, i stuck with it and found it really helpful as a quick breakdown, and pretty hilarious!

Sunny Side Up wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Armigers are hardly broken forcp. 480pts minimum. How many armies have to pay over 1000 pts for 3 cp? Answer. Just knights.

Balance is out of whack with this. Gw just wants to force knight armies to buy ig

Yeah, it's a bit weird. It'd rather have people (and Knights players in particular) use Armigers to stock up on some CP instead of the inevitable Guard Battalion. But it's not a huge deal either.

The whole CP thing is still ass-backwards IMO. It should be small, elite, low-model count armies like all Terminator Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Deathwatch, pure Harlequins, Assassins only or whatnot, that are swimming in CP for fighting weird black-ops style battles, while filling the board with 4 or 5 point models should be the lowest command-point armies in the game, both background wise because hordes of less-trained chaff are "harder" to command and because they use numbers of bodies/guns/teeth-and-claws to win instead of being super-sneaky-strategic.

That would require rethink of strategems though as those elites tend to have most awesome and cp hungry strategems. If they had those and tons od cp and hordes would have few cp and poorer strategems it would hardly be balanced

Sunny Side Up wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Armigers are hardly broken forcp. 480pts minimum. How many armies have to pay over 1000 pts for 3 cp? Answer. Just knights.

Balance is out of whack with this. Gw just wants to force knight armies to buy ig

Yeah, it's a bit weird. It'd rather have people (and Knights players in particular) use Armigers to stock up on some CP instead of the inevitable Guard Battalion. But it's not a huge deal either.

The whole CP thing is still ass-backwards IMO. It should be small, elite, low-model count armies like all Terminator Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Deathwatch, pure Harlequins, Assassins only or whatnot, that are swimming in CP for fighting weird black-ops style battles, while filling the board with 4 or 5 point models should be the lowest command-point armies in the game, both background wise because hordes of less-trained chaff are "harder" to command and because they use numbers of bodies/guns/teeth-and-claws to win instead of being super-sneaky-strategic.

I agree with this. Hordes should be unwieldy. Elites should be efficient.

Ultimately GW has decided to give you cps for taking troops and HQs. A thousand point custodes outrider detachment gives 1cp. A 540 point IG brigade gives 15. It’s a weird way to go about things, but it’s what they’ve chosen to go with - like it or not.

Not giving cps for armigers isn’t about balance. It’s about GW not thinking they deserve to count as superheavies, because they just aren’t very big. When trying to understand GW’s “thought process” you should always look for the simplest, most stupid explanation. You won’t go far wrong.

Anyway the recent previews have made me a lot happier about my existing taranis knights. A 6+++ is awesome news. I think I’ll get myself a Castellan with Cawl’s Wrath (now that is a gun) and the 4++ invulnerable trait. Not sure what I’ll have to back it up but I’ve got a few options available.

A lack of cp really doesn't seem like an issue for a sole Knight army. Considering how strong they are.

An army can easily get 7cp using just Knights anyway

TERRYN knight lancers are going to be the real deal. Or TERRYN atropos. Assuming you run 2 battalions of chaff, you can do a 3d6 drop the lowest but still advance 2d6 advance plus 14" movement and then do a 3d6 drop the lowest charge.

PiñaColada wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I personally think that knights having few CP would be a fair drawback but the problem is that the rule only really punishes pure knight lists. Anyone willing to soup is just going to add 180 points of guard and most of those issues are mitigated.

At the very least I think that 3 big knights should give 5 cp, the cheapest way you can get that is 1062 points (three gallants with no extra equipment) so it's not like you could fit two of those detachments at 2k/1750 points anyways.

Honestly, the only thing getting punished is people running Armigers as cheap ways to fill out the Superheavy Detachment.

Did we really expect them to let us do that?[

Considering that's how GW sold them to ujs back in this article in March,yeah. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/12/unit-focus-armiger-warglaivesgw-homepage-post-4/
From the article: Unlike other Lords of War, you’ll be able to fit up to three Armigers in a single slot, making filling out a Super-heavy Detachment – and netting three Command Points – easy!

Look, I'm not too upset about it, but it's ridiculous to say that it was an unrealistic expactation considering how armigers role on the battlefield was framed around their release.

And what's happened since then, in terms of Command Points? April basically saw a huge change in the beta rules regarding CPs and things of that nature.

Wulfey wrote:
TERRYN knight lancers are going to be the real deal. Or TERRYN atropos. Assuming you run 2 battalions of chaff, you can do a 3d6 drop the lowest but still advance 2d6 advance plus 14" movement and then do a 3d6 drop the lowest charge.

If you spend a CP, you can then give it the +2 advance and charge warlord trait as well!

Are armigers going to be available seperately? I hope so or it's pretty crappy otherwise

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
Are armigers going to be available seperately? I hope so or it's pretty crappy otherwise

There's two different Armiger kits: The Helverin just went up for preorder today and is the pewpewpew version. The Warglaive, which is currently only in Forgebane, remains to be seen separately.

Kdash wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
TERRYN knight lancers are going to be the real deal. Or TERRYN atropos. Assuming you run 2 battalions of chaff, you can do a 3d6 drop the lowest but still advance 2d6 advance plus 14" movement and then do a 3d6 drop the lowest charge.

If you spend a CP, you can then give it the +2 advance and charge warlord trait as well!

Right, it is so savage. And the +2 inch is an aura. Just my three knights on the shelf but kitted out as gallants could be terrifying. Pour all kinds of CP on those 3, give them all a WLT and a relic, then throw them up the field and let the dice sort it out. That still leaves like 800 points of bullcrap battalions to hold the back row. BLANGELS is an obvious choice. Smash captains always do work. Even if you are low on CPs, smash captain can kill what the knights can't (nothing pops fliers like a smash captain). Running 3 icarus autocannons might actually be necessary due to the threat of eldar flyers. Then you can take a CADIAN mortar battalion to sit in the back. Let me see if I can get a tournament next week. That list sounds like a riot.

Wulfey wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
TERRYN knight lancers are going to be the real deal. Or TERRYN atropos. Assuming you run 2 battalions of chaff, you can do a 3d6 drop the lowest but still advance 2d6 advance plus 14" movement and then do a 3d6 drop the lowest charge.

If you spend a CP, you can then give it the +2 advance and charge warlord trait as well!

Right, it is so savage. And the +2 inch is an aura. Just my three knights on the shelf but kitted out as gallants could be terrifying. Pour all kinds of CP on those 3, give them all a WLT and a relic, then throw them up the field and let the dice sort it out. That still leaves like 800 points of bullcrap battalions to hold the back row. BLANGELS is an obvious choice. Smash captains always do work. Even if you are low on CPs, smash captain can kill what the knights can't (nothing pops fliers like a smash captain). Running 3 icarus autocannons might actually be necessary due to the threat of eldar flyers. Then you can take a CADIAN mortar battalion to sit in the back. Let me see if I can get a tournament next week. That list sounds like a riot.

If you're running 3 Gallants, then i don't really see the need for the Smashcaptains. You already have 3 massive melee threats, that it'd prob be better aiming for some ranged/horde dealing options.

I'm personally starting to think Mortan Gallant with the +2" warlord trait and Helm of the Nameless Warrior relic. Essentially giving it 6 attacks on the turn it charges, with WS 2 and re-rolling 1's.

Thinking hard points....

Anyone else of a mind that two turrets and one missiles is the best way to go?

I mean, the missiles are damned useful - but we can only launch one a turn. Plus, to get the most out of them, we’re looking at spending 2 CP. Now I’m far from highly experienced with 8th Ed, but I’m thinking there’s not gonna be that many characters in a given enemy army in especially rapid need of deletion. So perhaps 4 CP neeed altogether to really start breaking synergy?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Thinking hard points....

Anyone else of a mind that two turrets and one missiles is the best way to go?

I mean, the missiles are damned useful - but we can only launch one a turn. Plus, to get the most out of them, we’re looking at spending 2 CP. Now I’m far from highly experienced with 8th Ed, but I’m thinking there’s not gonna be that many characters in a given enemy army in especially rapid need of deletion. So perhaps 4 CP neeed altogether to really start breaking synergy?

I am of that mindset. Especially on a Valiant. It allows them to be a ranged threat even before they are able to get in range of their main weapons.

Though I would say for an allied Knight, as a single LoW, four has a wider appeal, as you’re more likely to have the CP available to really break your opponent’s command structure?

Other than that, the turrets just seem more ubiquitous. Decent amount and potency of firepower for what are ultimately secondary weapons.

Kdash wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
TERRYN knight lancers are going to be the real deal. Or TERRYN atropos. Assuming you run 2 battalions of chaff, you can do a 3d6 drop the lowest but still advance 2d6 advance plus 14" movement and then do a 3d6 drop the lowest charge.

If you spend a CP, you can then give it the +2 advance and charge warlord trait as well!

Right, it is so savage. And the +2 inch is an aura. Just my three knights on the shelf but kitted out as gallants could be terrifying. Pour all kinds of CP on those 3, give them all a WLT and a relic, then throw them up the field and let the dice sort it out. That still leaves like 800 points of bullcrap battalions to hold the back row. BLANGELS is an obvious choice. Smash captains always do work. Even if you are low on CPs, smash captain can kill what the knights can't (nothing pops fliers like a smash captain). Running 3 icarus autocannons might actually be necessary due to the threat of eldar flyers. Then you can take a CADIAN mortar battalion to sit in the back. Let me see if I can get a tournament next week. That list sounds like a riot.

If you're running 3 Gallants, then i don't really see the need for the Smashcaptains. You already have 3 massive melee threats, that it'd prob be better aiming for some ranged/horde dealing options.

I'm personally starting to think Mortan Gallant with the +2" warlord trait and Helm of the Nameless Warrior relic. Essentially giving it 6 attacks on the turn it charges, with WS 2 and re-rolling 1's.

My thinking with the smash captains is that they can threaten the dark reapers on a 12" tall building, or the reapers embarked inside of an ITC building, and they can kill airplanes that knights flatly cannot hit and cannot walk around. Melee knights still have giant weaknesses against embarked devastators / reapers / other hard shooting heavy support infantry. Captain smash is a 90% kill on one of those units per turn. The big boys need someone to go up on the ledges and kill those things. Custodes bike captains would also do a similar job, but they don't provide as much CP and cost more points. 3x shield captains is 480 points and 1CP, 2x smash + 3x scouts is 410 points and 5CP. Captain smash is also the one thing in IMPERIUM that can block overwatch when you actually need to block overwatch for a Gallant. Think shadowsword, Y'vhara, Valiant, etc.

Damn it..

I don't get the point of Gallants though - why not Errants so you at least have a gun?

It's not like having 2 melee weapons means you can use them both... seems almost pointless to take a Gallant.

Enlighten me!

 Silentz wrote:
I don't get the point of Gallants though - why not Errants so you at least have a gun?

It's not like having 2 melee weapons means you can use them both... seems almost pointless to take a Gallant.

Enlighten me!

Because they get an extra attack and +1 weapon skill? It isn't like they don't get a benefit besides paying fewer points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, can Freeblades be used to fill a slot in a Knight Super Heavy Detachment?

 Silentz wrote:
I don't get the point of Gallants though - why not Errants so you at least have a gun?

It's not like having 2 melee weapons means you can use them both... seems almost pointless to take a Gallant.

Enlighten me!

Options.

Gauntlet can be a laugh, and near essential against large foes. Chainblade thing is multipurpose, but not as effective against particularly tough customers.

Of course, beyond lobbing things around (funny), I’m not entirely sold that the Gauntlet is all that necessary. You’re trading a greater chance of wounding, for a lower chance of hitting, I’m not familiar enough with 8th Ed to say which is more reliable in most situations, but I suspect it’s roughly equal? Infantry of course we just tap dance on. So much tap dancing in fact, I’m tempted to greenstuff (poorly, because it’s me) Tophats to be plonked on when in combat,

So, do we know if we get some kind of exception to the Character rule for Relics? Otherwise, actually having 3 Characters to make use of all we can take (Warlord + 2 from Strat) seems fairly hard to pull off, at least if you care about CP to actually use the strat with.

EDIT: NEVERMIND, just saw Exalted Court stratagem.

The relic gauntlet and squish strategem is nice to see for gauntlet fans.

 Eldarain wrote:
The relic gauntlet and squish strategem is nice to see for gauntlet fans.

So is the Mortan House Tradition (rerolls in CC and +1 to hit on Charge). If your Mortan Gallant gets to where it needs to be, it will annihilate whatever it connects with.

Relics and stratagems certainly change things.

Realistically, you’re only likely to have one Castellan, for example. So instead of looking at the normal profile of its plasma decimator, it makes sense to look at Cawl’s wrath. I’d be surprised to see a Castellan fielder without it, as it’s a truly awesome weapon.

The same applies to the fist. A normal fist is a bit weak. The relic fist, especially combined with the stratagem, is ridiculously awesome.

The army seriously eats cps though and, as discussed at length already, doesn’t get loads of them. One way around this is to take freeblades, who get to take relics anyway.

I do like the idea of an admech battalion to go with my Taranis knights. Turn one I can pick the reroll 1s to shoot canticle and make my Castellan a knight of the cog, while it fires overcharged plasma and a missile at some character. Turn two and I can make it reroll 1s to hit in melee and use the strat on a gallant - or whatever.