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So my question comes down to this. If your not battleforged you lose your chapter tactic, but still keep your warlord traits and powers. Out of all the loyalist options which has the weakest trait so losing said trait isn't as big a deal as the rest of what that chapter gives?

So for example, black templars would lose reroll to charge, but blood angels would lose red thirst. Which is more likely to matter in a game? Counter to that is black templars still get access to their unique units and crusaders helm relic even in a soup list.

White Scars. Imperial Fists, as much as people say that cover doesnt matter, is not hard to have many of your units in cover unless you are playing with blobs of 30 ork boyz/gaunts etc...

Both the ultramarine and whitescars chapter tactics are rather meh. Both a situational and depend upon your unit surviving combat long enough to fall back.

The whitescars one synergies well with their warlord trait but it's a bit of a stretch to see that being better than the other warlord traits etc.
The ultramarine one doesn't benifit most of my infantry, but does allow my dreadnaughts to keep throwing lots of dice at hoards just realy wish they hadn't added the addition -1 for falling back on top of -1 moving and Heavy.
Only GW knows why a dreadnaught can't handle the recoil of a heavy weapon. Now if all units got Chapter tactics Ultramarines one would be right up there with RG, IF, IH & Salamanders.

I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

 Galas wrote:
White Scars. Imperial Fists, as much as people say that cover doesnt matter, is not hard to have many of your units in cover unless you are playing with blobs of 30 ork boyz/gaunts etc...

White Scars tactic is really quite decent, though. Not every combat is some crazy Berserker horde cleaving through anything it runs into - whether it's units getting charged to tie them up in combat, or objective holders having themselves a wet noodle fight against other objective holders, you can get some mileage out of the White Scars tactic. Their stratagem, letting you advance shoot and charge with bikers, is even better. Just watch those Scout bikers cleave through Cultist blocks.

Imperial Fists' tactic just isn't terribly interesting. The quantity and quality of cover really does vary from table to table at most events, and cover isn't such a big part of the metagame these days precisely because the edition does favor things like 30 man bomb units. The units taking cover are very often low target priority ones, like Scouts and Rangers.

Imperial Fists tactics really help as Eldar players have discovered a bastion with 20 reapers is really difficult to deal with.

I would turn this question around a bit and instead of asking "which Chapter Tactic is less of a loss" ask "which units care the least about their Chapter Tactic".

The short answer, obviously, is tanks that don't get Chapter Tactics and Space Wolves that don't have a detachment benefit yet to get, but outside of that I think the Dark Angels probably lose the least from going into a soup detachment given that their Chapter Tactic is rendered redundant by using small squads and effectively-placed Captain auras, and that the Deathwing and the Ravenwing want to be moving too much to get any benefit from it in the first place so they get special rules baked into their datasheets that have nothing to do with the Chapter Tactic.

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because GW believe that Chaptor Space Marine Vehicals aren't manned by Chaptor Space Marines. Becuase GW logic and apparently GW couldn't think to say it will only apply to infantry, bikes and Dreadnaughts untill X date at which point it will apply to all units.

These are all very good points. I am liking the idea of dark angels because your right, it forces you to play a static gunline and marines just don't seem to want to play that way. And a captain can fix that anyways.

Fists or Scars I could see as well, though in my meta terrain is very prevalent at tournaments it appears and that means everything seems to be getting a cover save.

Maybe I should be asking which chapter is the most successful without their traits? I mean blood angels and wolves are definitely going to have a lot of advantages over salamanders if neither side has their trait. But ultramarine still has gulliman, templars still have their guys, dark angels still get death wing. . .

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Not even vehicles for SM/CSM--Dreadnoughts. Just Dreadnoughts.

It makes me wonder if they'd intended on something else being present for the other items but never implemented it?

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

I have no idea. I might hypothesize that the original plan might have been to limit CT to "core" units, but then they scrapped the idea as time went on, but I really can't say. CT applying to everything as a houserule certainly doesn't break the game; as we've found, but it also doesn't seem to make a massive difference.

If that Rhino could fall back and shoot, the very balance of Warhammer 40k itself would be in mortal peril.

Azuza001 wrote:
dark angels still get death wing. . .

Eh, kind of questionable whether that's a benefit... Knights are at best marginally better than Assault Termies, regular Deathwing have some more flexibility than normal Termies, but there isn't much good to mixing ranged with melee guys in the same unit. They're immune to morale, but no one was losing many terminators to morale tests. They get that strat to shoot on arrival from deep strike, but it's painfully expensive. And no teleport homers for Deathwing.

Overall I'd say it's really close, and any minor advantage is eclipsed by how meh terminators in general are right now!

Deathwing aside, I think the real thing Dark Angels have going for them as a chapter are their auras. 4++ from Azrael, extra attacks from Asmodai and the Deathwing Ancient, and -1 to hit from the Darkshroud. All kinds of shenanigans to be had there!

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because GW believe that Chaptor Space Marine Vehicals aren't manned by Chaptor Space Marines. Becuase GW logic and apparently GW couldn't think to say it will only apply to infantry, bikes and Dreadnaughts untill X date at which point it will apply to all units.

Because GW is scared of Land Raiders, and thinks it'd be too scary if they could have a 6+ FNP or -1 to hit, ignoring the fact that nobody has been scared of a Land Raider since...4e?

 meleti wrote:
If that Rhino could fall back and shoot, the very balance of Warhammer 40k itself would be in mortal peril.

Snark aside I feel like Repulsors that can fallback and shoot would be a bit much.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because GW believe that Chaptor Space Marine Vehicals aren't manned by Chaptor Space Marines. Becuase GW logic and apparently GW couldn't think to say it will only apply to infantry, bikes and Dreadnaughts untill X date at which point it will apply to all units.

Because GW is scared of Land Raiders, and thinks it'd be too scary if they could have a 6+ FNP or -1 to hit, ignoring the fact that nobody has been scared of a Land Raider since...4e?

I was scarred of a land raider once. Then my baby teeth fell out....... Lol

Back to the topic, I see where your coming from Stux, I would probably run ravenwing over death wing anyways.

Cypher can be an hq for dark angels can't he? I thought I saw the imperium keyword on him and if your losing the chapter tactic anyways, maybe a fallen fluff army?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 meleti wrote:
If that Rhino could fall back and shoot, the very balance of Warhammer 40k itself would be in mortal peril.

Snark aside I feel like Repulsors that can fallback and shoot would be a bit much.

Yeah, could you imagine what it would be like if Repulsors could do that?

Don't Repulsors fly? Honest question. I play competitive and have only seen 1, and it was some time ago.

 Marmatag wrote:
Don't Repulsors fly? Honest question. I play competitive and have only seen 1, and it was some time ago.

They do. But I think it was a joke.

 Marmatag wrote:
Don't Repulsors fly? Honest question. I play competitive and have only seen 1, and it was some time ago.

I bet it flew right off the board!

Azuza001 wrote:
...Cypher can be an hq for dark angels can't he? I thought I saw the imperium keyword on him and if your losing the chapter tactic anyways, maybe a fallen fluff army?

Sort of? As I understand Cypher "Fallen" is neither a <Chapter> or a <Legion> but its own distinct keyword, which means you're not allowed to take (for instance) Fallen transports, and the only people who benefit from Cypher's reroll aura are the special Fallen unit (which is a 14pts/model unit of Chosen (Veteran statlines, one special or heavy weapon plus four special weapons or melee weapons, and no special rules (no ATSKNF, no DTTFE) other than the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic attached directly to their datasheet)), but since he's an HQ with the Imperium keyword you could use him as an HQ in a detachment otherwise composed of Dark Angels, they just wouldn't get the Chapter Tactic.

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Honestly yeah no idea.

it could be said that maybe its because the techmarines that drive the dang things dont train in the art of combat as much as actual marines. but eh.

as for the OP.

It would be easier to say which ones are situational rather than worse.
Smurfs only benefit them if they get locked in combat. +1ld is eh for SM outside of manipulation shenanigans
imp fist technically situational but pretty darn good one and works in any situation some one parks in terrain. i dont know how many people still mess with forts but eh.
templars: really strong. so long as you dont rely on it only for deep strike charges.
Raven guard: really good.
salamanders: Also really good.
white scars: high mobility, using combat tricks to get really far behind things but thats more for objectives and getting behind something for more squishy stuff. decent for advancing and firing assault weapons (could be fun with meltas)
Iron hands: its always on but its enitrly meh.

cant say much for the other ones though. (i dont know what team jason or jake does)

but the most important thing about CT isnt the tactic it self its mostly the other stuff like characters and strats.

 Desubot wrote:
...it could be said that maybe its because the techmarines that drive the dang things dont train in the art of combat as much as actual marines. but eh...

So...then why do the Techmarines get Chapter Tactics when they're on foot?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
...it could be said that maybe its because the techmarines that drive the dang things dont train in the art of combat as much as actual marines. but eh...

So...then why do the Techmarines get Chapter Tactics when they're on foot?

Hense the but eh part.

i know its stupid.

Apply CT's to all units like everyone else and you'll see much more utility out of them.

Ultramarine tanks that can fall and back and still shoot?
Imperial Fists Predators that ignore cover?
Salamander Land Raiders rerolling a dice a phase?

Makes no sense why non-SM armies get an army wide benefit and they don't.

 Marmatag wrote:
Don't Repulsors fly? Honest question. I play competitive and have only seen 1, and it was some time ago.

they do yeah

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
...it could be said that maybe its because the techmarines that drive the dang things dont train in the art of combat as much as actual marines. but eh...

So...then why do the Techmarines get Chapter Tactics when they're on foot?

Honestly, My thoughts on it are that it was supposed to be the same for other armies too, but they changed their minds early enough that the eldar codex could be changed.

well, GK chapter traits matter, but only from the standpoint of making them worse. does that count?

 heckler wrote:
well, GK chapter traits matter, but only from the standpoint of making them worse. does that count?

But it helps versus demons! We need it too since demons have that one stratagem that makes grey Knights lose versus them every time.

The White Scars one would be a lot better if there was some more access to being able to advance and charge.