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 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

I disagree.

Discluding the sheer amount of Razorbacks and Predators that have cropped up in the meta, giving them a massively important role (moreso than their infantry), compared to Guardsmen, THE tank army, there's a similar amount of units.

Note that I'll be counting "similar" units seperately, but Superheavies, Walkers and "light" vehicles (ie Land Speeders) won't be counted.

AM:
Chimera
Taurox
Hellhound
Banewolf
Devil Dog
Hydra
Wyvern
Basilisk
Manticore
Deathstrike
LRBT
LR Vanquisher
LR Demolisher
LR Executioner
LR Punisher
LR Eradicator
LR Exterminator

SM:
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod
Rhino Primaris
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Land Raider Excelsior
Repulsor
Whirlwind Castellan
Whirlwind Vengeance (different main weapon types, a la Predator)
Vindicator
Predator Annihilator
Predator Destructor
Baal Predator
Stalker
Hunter

17 tanks apiece. Why, if SM don't have an armoured focus, do they have so many tanks, as many as GUARDSMEN. That's more than pretty much everyone else in the game - why? If they didn't give SM Tanks Chapter Tactics because there are too many of them, why give them to Guardsmen too?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

I disagree.

Discluding the sheer amount of Razorbacks and Predators that have cropped up in the meta, giving them a massively important role (moreso than their infantry), compared to Guardsmen, THE tank army, there's a similar amount of units.

Note that I'll be counting "similar" units seperately, but Superheavies, Walkers and "light" vehicles (ie Land Speeders) won't be counted.

AM:
Chimera
Taurox
Hellhound
Banewolf
Devil Dog
Hydra
Wyvern
Basilisk
Manticore
Deathstrike
LRBT
LR Vanquisher
LR Demolisher
LR Executioner
LR Punisher
LR Eradicator
LR Exterminator

SM:
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod
Rhino Primaris
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Land Raider Excelsior
Repulsor
Whirlwind Castellan
Whirlwind Vengeance (different main weapon types, a la Predator)
Vindicator
Predator Annihilator
Predator Destructor
Baal Predator
Stalker
Hunter

17 tanks apiece. Why, if SM don't have an armoured focus, do they have so many tanks, as many as GUARDSMEN. That's more than pretty much everyone else in the game - why? If they didn't give SM Tanks Chapter Tactics because there are too many of them, why give them to Guardsmen too?

Youre missing a huge amount of tanks for the guard. Just off the top of my head
Armaggedon pattern basilisk
Taurox prime
Griffon
Armaggeddon pattern medusa
Leman russ annihilator
Malcadors?
Gryphonne pattern chimera
Salamander tank
Salamander command vehicle
Trojan support tank

It would be wierd if vehicles could get - 1 to hit. For the infantry it's reasonable that they go prone often to present smaller target. But how can a land raider or rhino be sneaky?

Well, same question, how can eldar tanks be sneaky? Or a supersonic fighter?

 Mmmpi wrote:
Well, same question, how can eldar tanks be sneaky? Or a supersonic fighter?

Because Eldar cheat, that's always been their thing.

Gitdakka wrote:
It would be wierd if vehicles could get - 1 to hit. For the infantry it's reasonable that they go prone often to present smaller target. But how can a land raider or rhino be sneaky?

From a fluff prospective easy to explain away as they use quieter but less long lasting drive tech hence why they are able to be sneaky but often used in smaller numbers than another chapters. Imperial fists maybe they add additional training and sensors on how to effectively engage units in cover. Iron hands just maybe are able to jurry rig more systems than most spacemarine crews due to their fondness for machines.

For the game reason to do it marines are rapidly falling into the pit of leave on the shelf till 9nth Edition and then probably bin them as it will be all primaris chuff.
Also GW obviously don't think its game breaking as guard have doctrines, eldar have craftworld traits. Plus if your really having trouble killing marines or even marine vehicals you realy need to look at your list as they are probably one of the easiest codex armies to beat.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

First notification I have that tanks and artillery arent important for Iron Warriors.

Black Templars ct is probably the weakest of them all. It has almost no effect on the outcome of the game whatsoever. I usually only use it for one charge roll per game and it still fails half the time.

The more I look at the templars the more I feel sorry for them. They used to be an awesome force, now everything about them seems to be in the meh category.

Any black templars players have anything they can suggest that makes them cool?

Booger ork wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

I disagree.

Discluding the sheer amount of Razorbacks and Predators that have cropped up in the meta, giving them a massively important role (moreso than their infantry), compared to Guardsmen, THE tank army, there's a similar amount of units.

Note that I'll be counting "similar" units seperately, but Superheavies, Walkers and "light" vehicles (ie Land Speeders) won't be counted.

AM:
Chimera
Taurox
Hellhound
Banewolf
Devil Dog
Hydra
Wyvern
Basilisk
Manticore
Deathstrike
LRBT
LR Vanquisher
LR Demolisher
LR Executioner
LR Punisher
LR Eradicator
LR Exterminator

SM:
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod
Rhino Primaris
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Land Raider Excelsior
Repulsor
Whirlwind Castellan
Whirlwind Vengeance (different main weapon types, a la Predator)
Vindicator
Predator Annihilator
Predator Destructor
Baal Predator
Stalker
Hunter

17 tanks apiece. Why, if SM don't have an armoured focus, do they have so many tanks, as many as GUARDSMEN. That's more than pretty much everyone else in the game - why? If they didn't give SM Tanks Chapter Tactics because there are too many of them, why give them to Guardsmen too?

Youre missing a huge amount of tanks for the guard. Just off the top of my head
Armaggedon pattern basilisk
Taurox prime
Griffon
Armaggeddon pattern medusa
Leman russ annihilator
Malcadors?
Gryphonne pattern chimera
Salamander tank
Salamander command vehicle
Trojan support tank

I ignored Forge World for both SM and AM. I took vehicles from both factions codexes, with no superheavies, walkers, or flying units (except the Repulsor, which is more of a tank than something like a Land Speeder).

Because I don't have the FW books, and many don't, I chose to ignore them for both factions.

So no, I'm not missing some for guard - and even if I *should* have included them, then I should then include all the FW SM stuff (Damocles Rhino, Land Raider Achilles, Helios and Prometheus, Laser Vindicator, Infernus and Executioner Predator, Sicaran variants, Whirlwind Scorpius, Deathstorm Pods, Land Raider Proteus, etc etc.)
Malcadors wouldn't count, as they're SHV (or "were").

So yeah - FW works both ways.

Azuza001 wrote:
The more I look at the templars the more I feel sorry for them. They used to be an awesome force, now everything about them seems to be in the meh category.

Any black templars players have anything they can suggest that makes them cool?

The best thing they have going for them is that they look cool

The best actual thing about the Black Templars at the moment is The Emperors Champion. He slays enemy Characters way more expensive than himself.

Helbrecht is good but not amazing. He would be great if people were running more MEQ units because he gives +1 strength so chainswords are a lot better. As it is now though most targets require thunder hammers. I am actually dropping him from my list and adding another chaplain and a captain (w/ chapter master strategm)

Grimaldus is way to expensive for what he does.

The BT strategm is underwhelming. 1cp to deny 1 psychic power on a 4+
The crusader helm is helpful. +3” to aura bubble

Gitdakka wrote:
It would be wierd if vehicles could get - 1 to hit. For the infantry it's reasonable that they go prone often to present smaller target. But how can a land raider or rhino be sneaky?

The same way an Onager or Wave Serpent can be sneaky. And honestly how are Dreads and Helbrutes even close to being sneaky they should get that sorta bonus?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
It would be wierd if vehicles could get - 1 to hit. For the infantry it's reasonable that they go prone often to present smaller target. But how can a land raider or rhino be sneaky?

The same way an Onager or Wave Serpent can be sneaky. And honestly how are Dreads and Helbrutes even close to being sneaky they should get that sorta bonus?

Addendum: Consider also that the Alaitoc stealth rule works on Wraithknights, Vampires, and Scorpions (it doesn't actually work on the full-on Titans, those have a different kind of keyword in place of <Craftworld&gt.

It is weird to me that a 32-hull-point heavy ground-attack plane packing Titan-scale pulsars is capable of being stealthier than a Land Speeder, yes.

 Kellevil wrote:


The BT strategm is underwhelming. 1cp to deny 1 psychic power on a 4+

Actually as TS that is my personal nightmare. Anything that gives you a better deny chance to screw up my spells gives me heartburn.

Yeah, how anyone can look down upon that kind of stratagem in an army without psykers is beyond me.

I'm really glad my World Eaters have the same Stratagem. Without it I'd have no choice but to bend over and take it when my opponent wants to Warptime something. Now I at least have a 50% chance of blocking, even if he rolls really high on his psychic test.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
It would be wierd if vehicles could get - 1 to hit. For the infantry it's reasonable that they go prone often to present smaller target. But how can a land raider or rhino be sneaky?

The same way an Onager or Wave Serpent can be sneaky. And honestly how are Dreads and Helbrutes even close to being sneaky they should get that sorta bonus?

Addendum: Consider also that the Alaitoc stealth rule works on Wraithknights, Vampires, and Scorpions (it doesn't actually work on the full-on Titans, those have a different kind of keyword in place of <Craftworld&gt.

It is weird to me that a 32-hull-point heavy ground-attack plane packing Titan-scale pulsars is capable of being stealthier than a Land Speeder, yes.

That's because the Wraithknight is piloted by a warrior compared to Space Marine vehicles!

Some of the posters here I swear...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

Yeah they really screwed that one up.

Space marines are the only ones going to tournaments with commanders and fleets of flyers and vehicles. Storm raven spam, fleets of razorbacks, and now fire raptors.

If vehicles and flyers are buffed with Chapter tactics, I don't think those poor tactical marines and terminators will ever see the light of play.

Yeah, the 50% chance to block the power for 1 CP, or 75% if you use a reroll for another cp, it's a godsend when your opponent rolls an 11 for their power to go off.

Is it the best? Nope. But my khorne army only has that, the collar, and puppies to block. And puppies are expensive $$$ to use in numbers compared to what they do.

Still, poor black templars. :( crusader squads used to be so cool.

As excited as everyone was with the Raven Guard tactics, the one time I decided to run RG, my opponent brought out an all melee khorne daemon army.....

Think the least useful is Imperial Fists, it looks good on paper, but the reality is that it isn't that good. When I used it, I wished I had used the Salamander's Chapter Tactic, it would have served me a lot better.

Black Templars do have a nice relic, the extra 3" to auras can be very useful.

You can still use the BT stratagim if you don't have a BT detachment so there's that.

The chapter tactic is terrible though, SM really don't have anything that wants to be in CQC that is remotely competitive tier cost effective. BT really suffer from the "but another chapter does that way better" syndrome (BA).

Helbrecht would be not terrible if it impacted units w/in 6", with the limitation to only models its a terrible bonus. If it gave +1s and -1 ap it would be useful.

If grimmy let you re-roll all hits and wounds in CQC and gave +1 attack like other characters he might be worth the price tag.

The +3" helm is good for a gunline but if you are running gunlines marines there are 3 chapters that do it better (bobby g ultras, salies and RG)

UM is really bad as well but they have all the cool characters.

I've yet to play a white scar army in 8th so take that for what it's worth.

Hopefully the tactics are being balanced against the eventual primarchs so those with extra bad tacs (UM) will get really good priamrchs (come on Dorn!!)

 MinscS2 wrote:
Yeah, how anyone can look down upon that kind of stratagem in an army without psykers is beyond me.

I'm really glad my World Eaters have the same Stratagem. Without it I'd have no choice but to bend over and take it when my opponent wants to Warptime something. Now I at least have a 50% chance of blocking, even if he rolls really high on his psychic test.

Its not all that bad if your opponent only has 1 psycher. But so far, of the armies that I have played, they either dont have a psycher or they have several or Magnus. Having a 50% chance to deny 1 power feels pretty useless when they are casting 6 times (denying 1 out of every 12 casts kind of sucks). And yeah, the percentage jumps if you throw in a reroll but my army only has 7 cp. its not usually worth trying in my experience.

But it's not about denying every power, it's about denying a crucial power.

Since we're (I assume) playing matched play, each power can only be cast once. Really want to block that Warptime? Save the Stratagem for that, don't bother trying to block a random smite or diabolic strength, etc.

Shutting down 6 psykers with one 1CP-Stratagem would hardly be fair, would it?

 MinscS2 wrote:
But it's not about denying every power, it's about denying a crucial power.

Since we're (I assume) playing matched play, each power can only be cast once. Really want to block that Warptime? Save the Stratagem for that, don't bother trying to block a random smite or diabolic strength, etc.

Shutting down 6 psykers with one 1CP-Stratagem would hardly be fair, would it?

I didnt say it was useless, just underwhelming. Spending 2 CP (1/3 of my cp pool) to deny 1 power just isnt that great. CP are usually better spent rerolling a higher percentage roll, like a lascannon damage roll or a terminator armor save. Yes, there are a few time when I have used it but its pretty rare.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

So because they are an army based around their elite infantry - they should be at a disadvantage vs every army that gets their army traits on every unit in their army? Makes no sense. If anything - because they are elite their infantry should get additional traits to make them actually elite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Booger ork wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I still don't fully understand why it's limited to infantry, bikers, and vehicles for SM/CSM but not for anyone else. It's so odd.

Because space marines are an army focused around their infantry, especially their elite infantry. The tanks and such are supposed to be the units that you grudgingly take because you need something to fill a specific role, not units that should ever take the spotlight away from the heroes of the chapter. Other armies have vehicles in a more prominent role, so they benefit from sub-faction rules.

I disagree.

Discluding the sheer amount of Razorbacks and Predators that have cropped up in the meta, giving them a massively important role (moreso than their infantry), compared to Guardsmen, THE tank army, there's a similar amount of units.

Note that I'll be counting "similar" units seperately, but Superheavies, Walkers and "light" vehicles (ie Land Speeders) won't be counted.

AM:
Chimera
Taurox
Hellhound
Banewolf
Devil Dog
Hydra
Wyvern
Basilisk
Manticore
Deathstrike
LRBT
LR Vanquisher
LR Demolisher
LR Executioner
LR Punisher
LR Eradicator
LR Exterminator

SM:
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod
Rhino Primaris
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Land Raider Excelsior
Repulsor
Whirlwind Castellan
Whirlwind Vengeance (different main weapon types, a la Predator)
Vindicator
Predator Annihilator
Predator Destructor
Baal Predator
Stalker
Hunter

17 tanks apiece. Why, if SM don't have an armoured focus, do they have so many tanks, as many as GUARDSMEN. That's more than pretty much everyone else in the game - why? If they didn't give SM Tanks Chapter Tactics because there are too many of them, why give them to Guardsmen too?

Youre missing a huge amount of tanks for the guard. Just off the top of my head
Armaggedon pattern basilisk
Taurox prime
Griffon
Armaggeddon pattern medusa
Leman russ annihilator
Malcadors?
Gryphonne pattern chimera
Salamander tank
Salamander command vehicle
Trojan support tank

space marines have an equal amount if not more forge world tanks. Clearly he was only addressing codex entrees.

But seriously the answer is Grey Knights. None of the powers are that difficult to cast in the first place. Vortex of Doom is, but it's just a weak smite that can hit your own guys.

With the smite change, this makes their power even more useless.

Now, if Grey Knights get real smite, suddenly this power is hot. And probably so is the army.