New to Tyranid, need advice

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**darrekbaal**

1) What is the best non-character unit for Tyranid? (in overall, unit never bad to have) ex: Space Wolf = Thunderwolf Calvary)

2) What would be a good tough tanky unit for weak Tyranid army

**Marmatag**

We don't have a "best" unit. Every unit has a role. They function together to achieve a goal. We simply do not have a unit you can point to and say "this unit belongs in every list." Lots of people will say Genestealers, but without screening and support these guys will be shot off of the table, and this is a disaster because their cost is very, very high per model.

If you're looking for "tanky" that isn't a character, we honestly don't have much. Tankiness is defined by an invulnerable save in this edition due to the volume of -AP shooting. So you need a mid to high toughness model with a decent save. With that said, standing alone on its own, answering your questions, I would say a Carnifex is something you should look at.

Carnifex are durable, having more than 5 toughness, can carry weapons, won't fall apart without synapse support, can hold their own in melee and also have some defenses such as -1 to hit against ranged weaponry which is almost a requirement to survive at all in 8th edition against Guard, deep striking plasma, etc.

If you're just getting started in 40k, Tyranids are a tough hill to climb. The army isn't easy to play, and doesn't have simple answers. My 2c

**p5freak**

1) Clearly genestealers. They are so OP. Bring a broodlord along, he can buff them with 5+++, and increase their WS to 2+. Its insane what they can do for 12 pts. per model. If you use kraken as your hive fleet they can advance 3D6 using the highest roll, and still charge. Thats an average threat range of ~20". If you use a stratagem the highest advance roll dice is doubled, making it ~25", maximum is 32". They have 3 attacks per model (if the unit has 10 or more models its 4), their max unit size is 20 (which you should have). For every 4 models you can get an AP-3 weapon for free. Every wound roll of 6 is AP-4. Infantry is a light snack for them, they eat tanks for dinner, even threaten LoWs like mortarion. They are so cheap that you can bring 40-60 along, they can deepstrike with a trygon, or hide in their infestation nodes. You cant kill them when they arent on the table. Once all 60 deepstrike, or come out of their notes its not possible to kill all of them. Some will get into CC, surround their prey, and cant be shot at, because they are in CC.

**topaxygouroun i**

hth wise probably the genestealers. Their problem is that you have to build the whole list around them.

Shooting wise it's the Exocrine hands down. Probably the most cost efficient shooting thing in the game, except obliterators when they roll all 3's.

**darrekbaal**

Marmatag wrote:
We don't have a "best" unit. Every unit has a role. They function together to achieve a goal. We simply do not have a unit you can point to and say "this unit belongs in every list." Lots of people will say Genestealers, but without screening and support these guys will be shot off of the table, and this is a disaster because their cost is very, very high per model.

If you're looking for "tanky" that isn't a character, we honestly don't have much. Tankiness is defined by an invulnerable save in this edition due to the volume of -AP shooting. So you need a mid to high toughness model with a decent save. With that said, standing alone on its own, answering your questions, I would say a Carnifex is something you should look at.

Carnifex are durable, having more than 5 toughness, can carry weapons, won't fall apart without synapse support, can hold their own in melee and also have some defenses such as -1 to hit against ranged weaponry which is almost a requirement to survive at all in 8th edition against Guard, deep striking plasma, etc.

If you're just getting started in 40k, Tyranids are a tough hill to climb. The army isn't easy to play, and doesn't have simple answers. My 2c

Well I was thinking buying birthday gift for Tyranid friend, his army is very week, 20 Gargoyles, 2 Hive Tyrant, 6 warriors, but they die like nothing and gargoyles only good for laugh.

I been playing for half a year and from my experiences with Chaos Space Marine for example, Khorne Berzerkers is that "good all around" unit for the points they are worth, having a Rhino full of Khorne Berzerkers is the scariest thing on the battlefield for Chaos army (even when not build around them). And Daemon Prince is just a solid character for any Chaos army, some argue possibly better than Chaos Lord.

vs my brother who uses Space Wolf, Thunderwolf is one of the most ridiculous unit of all Space Marine, cheap Invul saves to withstand anything even Lascannon (just when you can finally hit and wound it then... he rolls invul sv), and huge toughness shrug off most average str4 weapon like nothing , nice amount of wound, almost move as fast as vehicle and the amount of attacks....good god...

I'm looking for "that type of good unit" for Tyranid.

**topaxygouroun i**

In this case I would go with either some termagants for troop support (warriors are ok, but you need the bodies).

Or I would go for a nice heavy support to make his army feel more beefy. Tyrannofex with acid spray is very durable and mobile flamer platform. Exocrine has amazing shooting and provides another monster to make the army feel more robust. Both of these kits can be magnetized and used double as a Tervigon and a Haruspex respectively, which would add variety (these two options are not very efficient though).

**Niiai**

Nids are not mono build. 33% is topp tier.

Also, thnderwolves is not the go to good unit this edition.

But best units nids:
Gargoyles
Flyrant (any)
malanthrope
Neuronthrope
Stealers
Dakkagaunts
Ripper swarm
Hive guard
Swarmlord
Old one eye
Exochrine

Warriors and fexes (most) are ok, but not topp tier

**Badablack**

Honestly, one of the best tyranid units is the humble ripper. A deepstriking, 3-wound objective secured troop choice. 9 will fill out a batallion detachment for under a hundred points. You can keep them in reserve til needed for last second objective grabs. 4 attacks each will harass vehicles and backfield shooty units. You can keep out of LOS with the barest of cover. They’re great.

**Commissar_Rex**

Niiai wrote:
Nids are not mono build. 33% is topp tier.

Also, thnderwolves is not the go to good unit this edition.

But best units nids:
Gargoyles
Flyrant (any)
malanthrope
Neuronthrope
Stealers
Dakkagaunts
Ripper swarm
Hive guard
Swarmlord
Old one eye
Exochrine

Warriors and fexes (most) are ok, but not topp tier

Why are gargoyles here? I haven't seen anyone take these on tournament lists and do well.

to answer OP- every list should have a flying hive tyrant. default is MRC+2x devourers, add toxin sacs/adrenal glands to taste.

**p5freak**

Commissar_Rex wrote:

to answer OP- every list should have a flying hive tyrant. default is MRC+2x devourers, add toxin sacs/adrenal glands to taste.

A hive tyrant can have 3 weapons ? Either battlescribe is wrong, or you are.

**KurtAngle2**

p5freak wrote:
Commissar_Rex wrote:

to answer OP- every list should have a flying hive tyrant. default is MRC+2x devourers, add toxin sacs/adrenal glands to taste.

A hive tyrant can have 3 weapons ? Either battlescribe is wrong, or you are.

Devourers come in pairs

**pinecone77**

darrekbaal wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
We don't have a "best" unit. Every unit has a role. They function together to achieve a goal. We simply do not have a unit you can point to and say "this unit belongs in every list." Lots of people will say Genestealers, but without screening and support these guys will be shot off of the table, and this is a disaster because their cost is very, very high per model.

If you're looking for "tanky" that isn't a character, we honestly don't have much. Tankiness is defined by an invulnerable save in this edition due to the volume of -AP shooting. So you need a mid to high toughness model with a decent save. With that said, standing alone on its own, answering your questions, I would say a Carnifex is something you should look at.

Carnifex are durable, having more than 5 toughness, can carry weapons, won't fall apart without synapse support, can hold their own in melee and also have some defenses such as -1 to hit against ranged weaponry which is almost a requirement to survive at all in 8th edition against Guard, deep striking plasma, etc.

If you're just getting started in 40k, Tyranids are a tough hill to climb. The army isn't easy to play, and doesn't have simple answers. My 2c

Well I was thinking buying birthday gift for Tyranid friend, his army is very week, 20 Gargoyles, 2 Hive Tyrant, 6 warriors, but they die like nothing and gargoyles only good for laugh.

I been playing for half a year and from my experiences with Chaos Space Marine for example, Khorne Berzerkers is that "good all around" unit for the points they are worth, having a Rhino full of Khorne Berzerkers is the scariest thing on the battlefield for Chaos army (even when not build around them). And Daemon Prince is just a solid character for any Chaos army, some argue possibly better than Chaos Lord.

vs my brother who uses Space Wolf, Thunderwolf is one of the most ridiculous unit of all Space Marine, cheap Invul saves to withstand anything even Lascannon (just when you can finally hit and wound it then... he rolls invul sv), and huge toughness shrug off most average str4 weapon like nothing , nice amount of wound, almost move as fast as vehicle and the amount of attacks....good god...

I'm looking for "that type of good unit" for Tyranid.

Well,what he Needs is some Gaunts, for some nice hord action, but adding in some Stealers would likely add some stabby. A Big Bug can work as well. Tyrannofex, Trygon, or some Carnifexen.

With what hes got, if he runs Leviathan, and adds some more infantry, he can use the "War on all fronts Strat for some more "umph".

**Commissar_Rex**

KurtAngle2 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Commissar_Rex wrote:

to answer OP- every list should have a flying hive tyrant. default is MRC+2x devourers, add toxin sacs/adrenal glands to taste.

A hive tyrant can have 3 weapons ? Either battlescribe is wrong, or you are.

Devourers come in pairs

Yup. So neither me nor battlescribe was wrong. On the bright side p5freak, now you've learned your tyrants can shoot double the shots they were before.

**Lance845**

Commissar_Rex wrote:
Niiai wrote:
Nids are not mono build. 33% is topp tier.

Also, thnderwolves is not the go to good unit this edition.

But best units nids:
Gargoyles
Flyrant (any)
malanthrope
Neuronthrope
Stealers
Dakkagaunts
Ripper swarm
Hive guard
Swarmlord
Old one eye
Exochrine

Warriors and fexes (most) are ok, but not topp tier

Why are gargoyles here? I haven't seen anyone take these on tournament lists and do well.

to answer OP- every list should have a flying hive tyrant. default is MRC+2x devourers, add toxin sacs/adrenal glands to taste.

Gargs are outshot by termagants and out assaulted by hormagaunts. But as part of a Kraken list they can fall back, shoot, and charge again, which is super powerful. You just need to take them in the right list.

**p5freak**

Commissar_Rex wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Commissar_Rex wrote:

to answer OP- every list should have a flying hive tyrant. default is MRC+2x devourers, add toxin sacs/adrenal glands to taste.

A hive tyrant can have 3 weapons ? Either battlescribe is wrong, or you are.

Devourers come in pairs

Yup. So neither me nor battlescribe was wrong. On the bright side p5freak, now you've learned your tyrants can shoot double the shots they were before.

You said 2x devourers, thats what confused me. In battlescribe devourers are pairs. Adding 2 would be four devourers. Thats why i thought 3 weapons, MRC and 2x 2 devourers.

**killerpenguin**

darrekbaal wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
We don't have a "best" unit. Every unit has a role. They function together to achieve a goal. We simply do not have a unit you can point to and say "this unit belongs in every list." Lots of people will say Genestealers, but without screening and support these guys will be shot off of the table, and this is a disaster because their cost is very, very high per model.

If you're looking for "tanky" that isn't a character, we honestly don't have much. Tankiness is defined by an invulnerable save in this edition due to the volume of -AP shooting. So you need a mid to high toughness model with a decent save. With that said, standing alone on its own, answering your questions, I would say a Carnifex is something you should look at.

Carnifex are durable, having more than 5 toughness, can carry weapons, won't fall apart without synapse support, can hold their own in melee and also have some defenses such as -1 to hit against ranged weaponry which is almost a requirement to survive at all in 8th edition against Guard, deep striking plasma, etc.

If you're just getting started in 40k, Tyranids are a tough hill to climb. The army isn't easy to play, and doesn't have simple answers. My 2c

Well I was thinking buying birthday gift for Tyranid friend, his army is very week, 20 Gargoyles, 2 Hive Tyrant, 6 warriors, but they die like nothing and gargoyles only good for laugh.

I been playing for half a year and from my experiences with Chaos Space Marine for example, Khorne Berzerkers is that "good all around" unit for the points they are worth, having a Rhino full of Khorne Berzerkers is the scariest thing on the battlefield for Chaos army (even when not build around them). And Daemon Prince is just a solid character for any Chaos army, some argue possibly better than Chaos Lord.

vs my brother who uses Space Wolf, Thunderwolf is one of the most ridiculous unit of all Space Marine, cheap Invul saves to withstand anything even Lascannon (just when you can finally hit and wound it then... he rolls invul sv), and huge toughness shrug off most average str4 weapon like nothing , nice amount of wound, almost move as fast as vehicle and the amount of attacks....good god...

I'm looking for "that type of good unit" for Tyranid.

The unit you're looking for is genestealers. 2x16-20 of them should suffice in a 2k list if they have screen turn 1 for deep strikers, Nodes for when the enemy is really in you face turn one with a lot of shooting.

**Marmatag**

p5freak wrote:
1) Clearly genestealers. They are so OP. Bring a broodlord along, he can buff them with 5+++, and increase their WS to 2+. Its insane what they can do for 12 pts. per model. If you use kraken as your hive fleet they can advance 3D6 using the highest roll, and still charge. Thats an average threat range of ~20". If you use a stratagem the highest advance roll dice is doubled, making it ~25", maximum is 32". They have 3 attacks per model (if the unit has 10 or more models its 4), their max unit size is 20 (which you should have). For every 4 models you can get an AP-3 weapon for free. Every wound roll of 6 is AP-4. Infantry is a light snack for them, they eat tanks for dinner, even threaten LoWs like mortarion. They are so cheap that you can bring 40-60 along, they can deepstrike with a trygon, or hide in their infestation nodes. You cant kill them when they arent on the table. Once all 60 deepstrike, or come out of their notes its not possible to kill all of them. Some will get into CC, surround their prey, and cant be shot at, because they are in CC.

This post is what happens when a casual player loses his marine squad to Genestealers. I feel obligated to point how how wrong he is.

1. A Broodlord is expensive. You don't need to improve Genestealers hit rolls from 3+ to 2+. They're already good enough at hitting.

2. Catalyst can be placed on 1 squad. Your opponent will generally shoot the squads that don't have catalyst. Even so, "percentage wise," it's about the same as getting a 4+ save against 1 damage weapons. Additionally as melee you will see people put effort into denying this spell. In general hive tyrants are bigger targets for people. I usually catalyst my warlord, which is a HT.

3. Rolling 3D6 and picking the highest gives you a 14" move. I've failed plenty of 6" charges. Fail a charge with genestealers and they are *dead*, 100% guaranteed. Forgetting of course that most things will strive to be more than 20" away. And, at the start of the game, they will be. You might charge screens, but if you can't get cover or lock something in combat, you're dead next turn, and you traded GS for chaff.

4. If you can magically get all 20 genestealers into combat with a T7, 3+ tank, you should probably deal 13 damage to it, assuming no FNP (like spirit stones) or invulnerable save. That's not game breaking, at all, for a 240 point unit that requires melee to function.

5. They consume infantry, but the second you get an invuln save and T5+, their effectiveness diminishes greatly. You can charge 20 Genestealers into a custodes captain and watch your opponent laugh it off.

6. 12 points per model is not cheap. Bringing 60 means that you have devoted 720 points to Genestealers in your list. This isn't cheap. And it's not a good strategy. You're building a list around these guys and when they start dying - and they will - you'll find yourself hosed, big time.

7. He says 60 of them will deep strike. This just isn't happening. They do not natively have deep strike, and you would need 3 tryannocytes to make this happen. That's 6 units in reserve and over half your list. Meaning you need 6 units on the table to start. And you have 1000 points to do it, and it had better synergize with your genestealer betastrike (it's a beta strike because deep striking genestealers will require 9" charges - really bad for genestealers - and even in a best case scenario you'll hit screens).

Units that handsomely counter your Genestealers:

1. Thunderwolf Cavalry, with Stormshields & Chainswords.
2. Custodes Bikes. (Hurricane bolters & Fly)
3. Orks. (Half the cost, gnarly in melee against infantry)
4. Khorne Berzerkers (have transports, more attacks, and are more durable)
5. Obliterators (24" range after deep strike, wounding on 3s or 2s, getting rerolls, and lots of dice on multi-damage weapons even if you have catalyst)
6. All guard artillery. Leman Russ punishers.

& lots more.

Keeping genestealers alive is a full time job. Most armies have the capability to remove them effectively.

They're a good unit, no doubt. Ever play marines? Think about how fast your marines die in 8th edition. Now, cut their save to 5++, and take away their guns. Genestealers are a scalpel, not a hammer.

Oh and Mortarian will win against Genestealers.

They are a good unit - to a balanced army.

**Azuza001**

Genestealers with a trygon are a good combo.
Carnifexes are a great unit to play with in numbers.
Personally very happy with exocrine / tyranofex for their anti tank abilities.
Back to the trygon, Trygon + termagaunts with devourers = dead stuff

Really everything needs something else to put it to that level of greatness, but tyranids have so many great combos it's all about what kind of army your trying to make.

But yeah, Trygons are very versatile as either a normal or a prime.

**killerpenguin**

Marmatag wrote:
p5freak wrote:
1) Clearly genestealers. They are so OP. Bring a broodlord along, he can buff them with 5+++, and increase their WS to 2+. Its insane what they can do for 12 pts. per model. If you use kraken as your hive fleet they can advance 3D6 using the highest roll, and still charge. Thats an average threat range of ~20". If you use a stratagem the highest advance roll dice is doubled, making it ~25", maximum is 32". They have 3 attacks per model (if the unit has 10 or more models its 4), their max unit size is 20 (which you should have). For every 4 models you can get an AP-3 weapon for free. Every wound roll of 6 is AP-4. Infantry is a light snack for them, they eat tanks for dinner, even threaten LoWs like mortarion. They are so cheap that you can bring 40-60 along, they can deepstrike with a trygon, or hide in their infestation nodes. You cant kill them when they arent on the table. Once all 60 deepstrike, or come out of their notes its not possible to kill all of them. Some will get into CC, surround their prey, and cant be shot at, because they are in CC.

This post is what happens when a casual player loses his marine squad to Genestealers. I feel obligated to point how how wrong he is.

1. A Broodlord is expensive. You don't need to improve Genestealers hit rolls from 3+ to 2+. They're already good enough at hitting.

2. Catalyst can be placed on 1 squad. Your opponent will generally shoot the squads that don't have catalyst. Even so, "percentage wise," it's about the same as getting a 4+ save against 1 damage weapons. Additionally as melee you will see people put effort into denying this spell. In general hive tyrants are bigger targets for people. I usually catalyst my warlord, which is a HT.

3. Rolling 3D6 and picking the highest gives you a 14" move. I've failed plenty of 6" charges. Fail a charge with genestealers and they are *dead*, 100% guaranteed. Forgetting of course that most things will strive to be more than 20" away. And, at the start of the game, they will be. You might charge screens, but if you can't get cover or lock something in combat, you're dead next turn, and you traded GS for chaff.

4. If you can magically get all 20 genestealers into combat with a T7, 3+ tank, you should probably deal 13 damage to it, assuming no FNP (like spirit stones) or invulnerable save. That's not game breaking, at all, for a 240 point unit that requires melee to function.

5. They consume infantry, but the second you get an invuln save and T5+, their effectiveness diminishes greatly. You can charge 20 Genestealers into a custodes captain and watch your opponent laugh it off.

6. 12 points per model is not cheap. Bringing 60 means that you have devoted 720 points to Genestealers in your list. This isn't cheap. And it's not a good strategy. You're building a list around these guys and when they start dying - and they will - you'll find yourself hosed, big time.

7. He says 60 of them will deep strike. This just isn't happening. They do not natively have deep strike, and you would need 3 tryannocytes to make this happen. That's 6 units in reserve and over half your list. Meaning you need 6 units on the table to start. And you have 1000 points to do it, and it had better synergize with your genestealer betastrike (it's a beta strike because deep striking genestealers will require 9" charges - really bad for genestealers - and even in a best case scenario you'll hit screens).

Units that handsomely counter your Genestealers:

1. Thunderwolf Cavalry, with Stormshields & Chainswords.
2. Custodes Bikes. (Hurricane bolters & Fly)
3. Orks. (Half the cost, gnarly in melee against infantry)
4. Khorne Berzerkers (have transports, more attacks, and are more durable)
5. Obliterators (24" range after deep strike, wounding on 3s or 2s, getting rerolls, and lots of dice on multi-damage weapons even if you have catalyst)
6. All guard artillery. Leman Russ punishers.

& lots more.

Keeping genestealers alive is a full time job. Most armies have the capability to remove them effectively.

They're a good unit, no doubt. Ever play marines? Think about how fast your marines die in 8th edition. Now, cut their save to 5++, and take away their guns. Genestealers are a scalpel, not a hammer.

Oh and Mortarian will win against Genestealers.

They are a good unit - to a balanced army.

Well put, acid maws are worth mentioning as well. if you have 16 GS 4 of them can have the -3 witch increases their efficiency against armor greatly.

Also if you're playing against a assulty army, they will be scared of coming into your deployment zone if you have 30-40 GS underground and have a few well placed nodes.

**Badablack**

If you do take genestealers, be sure their acid maws, scything talons and flesh hooks are clearly denoted on the models that have them. For your benefit and theirs.

**Niiai**

Commissar_Rex wrote:
Niiai wrote:
Nids are not mono build. 33% is topp tier.

Also, thnderwolves is not the go to good unit this edition.

But best units nids:
Gargoyles
Flyrant (any)
malanthrope
Neuronthrope
Stealers
Dakkagaunts
Ripper swarm
Hive guard
Swarmlord
Old one eye
Exochrine

Warriors and fexes (most) are ok, but not topp tier

Why are gargoyles here? I haven't seen anyone take these on tournament lists and do well.

to answer OP- every list should have a flying hive tyrant. default is MRC+2x devourers, add toxin sacs/adrenal glands to taste.

Gargoyles are more of a tool, often an anvil unit (in the case 40K has this) as opposed to a unit that kills things.

- You can deep strike them down to screen unit.
- They have devourers meaning they can use the devourer stratagem, although it only works in a big group.
- Leviathan can use them to trigger their 'war on all fronts' stratagem that are very good.

However, all of that is just minor use. They really shine when they tie up other units in CC. Most notably long ranged weapons with few CC weapons. To acomplish this you can jump over blocking units, something Nids often have problem with. However the best use of them is with the Swarmlord in a kraken list vs gunline armies. Make 30 gargoyles move 24", charge into things to tie them in in CC. (You might wanne combine this with a fats moving synapse unit to keep them fearless.) Often this will not tie up everything. But since you are kraken you can leave CC and charge whatever is backline turn 2. This prevents the opponent froom shooting for 2 turns, usualy enough to tip the scales in the tyranid favour. Although to achieve this have the swarmlord in a spore. And the plan can fail if you meet dedicated CC (150 ork boys, not so much) but for tying up gunlines it works great. True 30 gargoyles can be shot, but often long ranged weapons turn 1 are best vs high T targets as heavy weapons has a long range.

Anyway, that is why gargoyles are good. It is a corner case in Kraken lists (since you can charge again and penetrate deeper) but boy is it a good trick.

Remember to cast catalyst on the gargoyles for making them really anoying.

**Lance845**

Gargoyles do NOT have devourers. If gargs could take devourers that would be amazing. But no. Only fleshborers.

**killerpenguin**

Lance845 wrote:
Gargoyles do NOT have devourers. If gargs could take devourers that would be amazing. But no. Only fleshborers.

He was probably thinking of fleshborers since there is no devourer stratagem.The stratagem thats +1 to wound.

**Lance845**

killerpenguin wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Gargoyles do NOT have devourers. If gargs could take devourers that would be amazing. But no. Only fleshborers.

He was probably thinking of fleshborers since there is no devourer stratagem.The stratagem thats +1 to wound.

I assumed he was talking about the shoot twice stratagem since it's great with devourers.

**topaxygouroun i**

Lance845 wrote:
killerpenguin wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Gargoyles do NOT have devourers. If gargs could take devourers that would be amazing. But no. Only fleshborers.

He was probably thinking of fleshborers since there is no devourer stratagem.The stratagem thats +1 to wound.

I assumed he was talking about the shoot twice stratagem since it's great with devourers.

And spending a CP to use the stratagem for your assault 1, 12", ap0 weapons is a terrible idea. That stratagem is marginally usable on an immobile fleshborer hive tyrranofex. On gargoyles it's just a waste of CP.

**p5freak**

Marmatag wrote:

6. 12 points per model is not cheap.

Lets see what a SM player gets for 12 pts. A scout is 11 pts. Does he have 3 or 4 attacks ? No, 1 or 2. Does he have 8" move ? No, only 6". Can he advance and charge ? No, he cant. Does he have 5++ ? No. Is his max unit size 20 ? No, just 10. Does the unit get AP-3 weapons for free ? No. Does he get a weapon which can reroll 1s to hit, for free ? No. Does he get AP-4 on a wound roll of 6, for free ? No.

Right, genestealers arent cheap.

**Niiai**

p5freak wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

6. 12 points per model is not cheap.

Lets see what a SM player gets for 12 pts. A scout is 11 pts. Does he have 3 or 4 attacks ? No, 1 or 2. Does he have 8" move ? No, only 6". Can he advance and charge ? No, he cant. Does he have 5++ ? No. Is his max unit size 20 ? No, just 10. Does the unit get AP-3 weapons for free ? No. Does he get a weapon which can reroll 1s to hit, for free ? No. Does he get AP-4 on a wound roll of 6, for free ? No.

Right, genestealers arent cheap.

You are miss representing the scout a lot.

Genstealers are asault specialists. They are very good, but with no ranged option you should shoot them away before they reach CC. High risk high reward.

Now scouts are very good. Being relativly cheap for a squad of 5 you can grab 3 units, get some CP and completly blank deep striking with some 18" diameter denial. They are a very good counter to many alpha strike lists, unluding the most popular genstealer lists. (Genstealers + swarmlord from reserves.) So both units are good. But do not compare a hammer to a untilaty tool.

**p5freak**

Niiai wrote:

Genstealers are asault specialists.

Ok, lets compare the tyranid assault specialists to SM assault specialists. The assault squad. An assault marine is 13 pts. Does he have 3 or 4 attacks ? No, only 2, the sarge has 3. Does he have 8" move ? No, only 6". Can he advance and charge ? No, he cant. Does he have 5++ ? No. Is his max unit size 20 ? No, just 10. Does the unit get AP-3 weapons for free ? No. Does he get a weapon which can reroll 1s to hit, for free ? No. Does he get AP-4 on a wound roll of 6, for free ? No.

Right, genestealers arent cheap.

**Niiai**

p5freak wrote:
Niiai wrote:

Genstealers are asault specialists.

Ok, lets compare the tyranid assault specialists to SM assault specialists. The assault squad. An assault marine is 13 pts. Does he have 3 or 4 attacks ? No, only 2, the sarge has 3. Does he have 8" move ? No, only 6". Can he advance and charge ? No, he cant. Does he have 5++ ? No. Is his max unit size 20 ? No, just 10. Does the unit get AP-3 weapons for free ? No. Does he get a weapon which can reroll 1s to hit, for free ? No. Does he get AP-4 on a wound roll of 6, for free ? No.

Right, genestealers arent cheap.

Space Marine assault specialists are terrible this edition. With exception of Blood Angels they have often been terrible every edition. Space Marines in general are very badly possitioned this edition. Read the units with space marine armour, not the army book, as it keeps having great results.

You are comparing a good unit with a bad unit as saying one unit is good and one is bad. Yes, I agree with you. That same assault squad is stil bad when you compare it to khorne berderkers and ork boys. On the other side it makes sence for 3 iconic close combat units to actually bee good in close combat. It is not like tyranids and orks can lean back and relly on their guns. They are both archtypical assault armies.

**Lance845**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
killerpenguin wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Gargoyles do NOT have devourers. If gargs could take devourers that would be amazing. But no. Only fleshborers.

He was probably thinking of fleshborers since there is no devourer stratagem.The stratagem thats +1 to wound.

I assumed he was talking about the shoot twice stratagem since it's great with devourers.

And spending a CP to use the stratagem for your assault 1, 12", ap0 weapons is a terrible idea. That stratagem is marginally usable on an immobile fleshborer hive tyrranofex. On gargoyles it's just a waste of CP.

It can't be used on the Tfex. It's simple to remember. Shoot twice = infantry only. +1 dmg per shot = Monsters only.

Otherwise I would fill my list with exocrines and use shoot twice to shoot 4 times all the time,

Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
Niiai wrote:

Genstealers are asault specialists.

Ok, lets compare the tyranid assault specialists to SM assault specialists. The assault squad. An assault marine is 13 pts. Does he have 3 or 4 attacks ? No, only 2, the sarge has 3. Does he have 8" move ? No, only 6". Can he advance and charge ? No, he cant. Does he have 5++ ? No. Is his max unit size 20 ? No, just 10. Does the unit get AP-3 weapons for free ? No. Does he get a weapon which can reroll 1s to hit, for free ? No. Does he get AP-4 on a wound roll of 6, for free ? No.

Right, genestealers arent cheap.

Also, lets rewind here for a second.

12 ppm base plus 2ppm for rending claws. Each GS costs 14points.

GS have no option to deepstrike.

GS do not have a 3+ save.

GS have no access to ranged weapons.

GS have no access to options like plasma.

One in every 5 marines can have a str 8 ap -4 d3 dmg melee weapon.

Now I am not saying that assault marines are the best thing ever. But to list off the meager options the GS get and claim they get it all for free at 12ppm is both factually false (it's 14 ppm) and a misrepresentation of the flexibility and options afforded to every marine unit.