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Spoletta wrote:
A lot depends on the rules you are using.

If you are not playing with ITC rules and with a time limit that allows you to play for turns 5-6, it is 100% possible to make lists with durability in mind, which will shrug off 2 turns of fire and pound the puny enemy glasscannon into the third slowly and painfully over 3 more turns.

what's this about ITC rules? They're not mucking with game rules anymore. They will soon introduce chess clocks at their events which should hurt glass cannon armies.

 hollow one wrote:

"Then why bother?" you ask? To get better at the game, enjoy the game more, and edge out victories when the armies are more evenly matched.

Please tell me how much better you can get with a dread mob against scion comsquad spam. Both legit themed armies. Let me tell you. There is simply nothing you can do cause you don't have the tools to mitigate alpha-strike in any meaningful way. There are no vehicle facings, no alternatie activation for counter-play, plasma trumps everything, cover doesn't work, deepstrike has no penalties. The game turns into listbuilding and rolling dice with scions winning 9999 times out of 10000 with one being severe dice unluck.

And all the same problems go to other list matches that are not that drastic. There is a very limited amount of options that you have.

 koooaei wrote:

 hollow one wrote:

"Then why bother?" you ask? To get better at the game, enjoy the game more, and edge out victories when the armies are more evenly matched.

Please tell me how much better you can get with a dread mob against scion comsquad spam. Both legit themed armies. Let me tell you. There is simply nothing you can do cause you don't have the tools to mitigate alpha-strike in any meaningful way. There are no vehicle facings, no alternatie activation for counter-play, plasma trumps everything, cover doesn't work, deepstrike has no penalties. The game turns into listbuilding and rolling dice with scions winning 9999 times out of 10000 with one being severe dice unluck.

And all the same problems go to other list matches that are not that drastic. There is a very limited amount of options that you have.

Perhaps you need to model your list to be more diverse and not just take what you want - every list has strengths and weaknesses which keeps it fun. For example taking all zerkers in alpha legion who alpha strike in could be "competitive" from a dakka standpoint - but then to complain when you happen to go second due to commander spam flying around and unable to get into melee is childish. You accepted this risk when you built your list. The goal of capable list building is to build a competitive list that can "take all comers" - it will have weak matchups - but to give yourself the opportunity to win by going for objectives and to tactically outplay your opponent etc.

You said it youself "go to other list matches that are not that drastic" the goal is to minimize the weaknesses you expose yourself to while maximizing your good matchups and have an eye towards the meta. People actually do this in practice all the time, this is far from a philosophical discussion. Look at the top 50 in LVO who went 5 and 1 and there are a slew of examples in any tournament.

A lot of the tactics being suggested here are list building suggestions. 40K is not a game where “taking what you want” guarantees you an even match up; list building is part of 40K tactics. So, for the dread mob example: an applicable suggestion is “screens”. Take some boyz (or even grots) and put them around your walkers to keep plasma out of double-tap range.
A lot of the suggestions here start when you decide what units to take in a game...and that’s 100% ok.

 koooaei wrote:
Please tell me how much better you can get with a dread mob against scion comsquad spam.

This thread is entitled competitive play, part of competitive play is list building. Take your strawman somewhere else - yes if you choose to play an entirely theme driven list against a much harder more competitively built list it is very difficult to win but that isn't the premise of this thread. The premise of this thread is dealing with alpha strikes in a competitive environment. Everyone gets it, you're cool, 40k is for babies and has no tactics - this isn't the thread to discuss it.

To the topic at hand some of these have been mentioned but just to reiterate:

-If you're facing a strong alpha strike list deploy to go second and just go second even if you win the roll off. Deploy behind LoS, in transports (in your fortifications even), deploy in the corner out of maximum ranges. Effectively keep your risk minimized and understand you're still going to lose models, endeavor to make those models you can accept losing against the alpha strike.
-Use your flyers to help screen and exert board control - this is a major element I think many players miss. Flyers have a large base and you can use them to quickly move out and block off areas for things like cultists and bloodletter bombs.
-Look to exert counter pressure - put yourself in a position where if your opponent opens up with his alpha strike he's going to lose units to the counter. Units with the 'fly' keyword can help against alpha assaults and making him pull himself out of deepstrike zone control can help you deliver your own beta strike to vulnerable areas.

I've been trying to replicate the old null deploy trick as best I can with BA. I've gotten it down to 550/1450 on and off board at 2K.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been trying to replicate the old null deploy trick as best I can with BA. I've gotten it down to 550/1450 on and off board at 2K.

If you don’t mind allies I’ve been considering a similar tactic with Inquisition for my GK: 1 naked inquisitor and 6 acolytes form an outrider detachment for 103 pts and give me 7 units on the table, for the cost of a strike squad that would get shot away anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been trying to replicate the old null deploy trick as best I can with BA. I've gotten it down to 550/1450 on and off board at 2K.

For those not as familiar - can you elaborate? Don't you need at least half points boots on the ground?

orkswubwub wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been trying to replicate the old null deploy trick as best I can with BA. I've gotten it down to 550/1450 on and off board at 2K.

For those not as familiar - can you elaborate? Don't you need at least half points boots on the ground?

You need half of your units boots on the ground. It’s number of units, not their points value.

 greyknight12 wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been trying to replicate the old null deploy trick as best I can with BA. I've gotten it down to 550/1450 on and off board at 2K.

For those not as familiar - can you elaborate? Don't you need at least half points boots on the ground?

You need half of your units boots on the ground. It’s number of units, not their points value.

This.... just blew my mind

But you auto loose if all no flyers get tabled by the alpha though so there is a risk reward balance to manage.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Please tell me how much better you can get with a dread mob against scion comsquad spam.

This thread is entitled competitive play, part of competitive play is list building.

That's exactly what i'm talking about. Listbuilding is the dominating part of 40k. And listbuilding is not tactics. All i'm saying is that you just can't do anything if you bring the 'wrong' list because the game doe not provide any meaningful tools to use.

Also, some screen won't do. You simply need to spam boyz to deal with scions. Dread mob is an auto-loose in this case and there is NOTHING you can do other than go and buy different models.

Ice_can wrote:
But you auto loose if all no flyers get tabled by the alpha though so there is a risk reward balance to manage.

That rule only comes into effect at the end of the second battle round, you can get "tabled" before your first turn without repercussions.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been trying to replicate the old null deploy trick as best I can with BA. I've gotten it down to 550/1450 on and off board at 2K.

If you don’t mind allies I’ve been considering a similar tactic with Inquisition for my GK: 1 naked inquisitor and 6 acolytes form an outrider detachment for 103 pts and give me 7 units on the table, for the cost of a strike squad that would get shot away anyway.

Haha, that's even more extreme. I'm just giving them some tac marines and crappy scouts to shoot. Maybe a bit more.

When playing admech my answer is to bring enough bare bones ranger squads to bubble wrap everything so that they have to just charge my Rangers. If you keep them far enough away the opponent can't consolidate and is open to a round of shooting.

 koooaei wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Please tell me how much better you can get with a dread mob against scion comsquad spam.

This thread is entitled competitive play, part of competitive play is list building.

That's exactly what i'm talking about. Listbuilding is the dominating part of 40k. And listbuilding is not tactics. All i'm saying is that you just can't do anything if you bring the 'wrong' list because the game doe not provide any meaningful tools to use.

Also, some screen won't do. You simply need to spam boyz to deal with scions. Dread mob is an auto-loose in this case and there is NOTHING you can do other than go and buy different models.

List building could be tactics. But not in the era of internet when listbuilding is basically a copy-paste from the tournament winning lists.

When I started playing in late 90s listbuilding was a skill, now it isn't anymore.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Please tell me how much better you can get with a dread mob against scion comsquad spam.

This thread is entitled competitive play, part of competitive play is list building.

That's exactly what i'm talking about. Listbuilding is the dominating part of 40k. And listbuilding is not tactics. All i'm saying is that you just can't do anything if you bring the 'wrong' list because the game doe not provide any meaningful tools to use.

Also, some screen won't do. You simply need to spam boyz to deal with scions. Dread mob is an auto-loose in this case and there is NOTHING you can do other than go and buy different models.

List building could be tactics. But not in the era of internet when listbuilding is basically a copy-paste from the tournament winning lists.

When I started playing in late 90s listbuilding was a skill, now it isn't anymore.

Yeah because guys like Alex Fennel and Nick Nanavati were just running net-lists at the LVO. Oh wait - someone has to write the lists to originate the netlists.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Please tell me how much better you can get with a dread mob against scion comsquad spam.

This thread is entitled competitive play, part of competitive play is list building.

That's exactly what i'm talking about. Listbuilding is the dominating part of 40k. And listbuilding is not tactics. All i'm saying is that you just can't do anything if you bring the 'wrong' list because the game doe not provide any meaningful tools to use.

Also, some screen won't do. You simply need to spam boyz to deal with scions. Dread mob is an auto-loose in this case and there is NOTHING you can do other than go and buy different models.

List building could be tactics. But not in the era of internet when listbuilding is basically a copy-paste from the tournament winning lists.

When I started playing in late 90s listbuilding was a skill, now it isn't anymore.

Yeah because guys like Alex Fennel and Nick Nanavati were just running net-lists at the LVO. Oh wait - someone has to write the lists to originate the netlists.

Sorry, but even lists from guys like that are 90% made from the Great Internet Gestalt Hive Mind. Players all over crunch the numbers for every Codex and post the math online in multiple places.

Thats not where the real skill comes in its the guys predicting and countering the meta they are going to see that are showing something extra, but yes most people will be running variations on net lists.
Tgough part of it is down to some options just being way better than anything else.

 koooaei wrote:

So, what can you do with a dread mob if you're facing scion comsquad spam? Of if you're running witch cult and you're facing an ig gunline? What options does the game allow you to use other than scrap your current list and buy a whole lot of new models to build a new one?

That's exactly what i'm telling. There are a lot of lists you can do absolutely nothing against other than build a different list yourself.

That is the problem with building a list that spams just one element rather than bringing a flexible and balanced list. You are always at risk of running into a list that spams your hard counter.

If 40K were a game of rock-paper-scissors, it is like choosing to take a list of scissors and then complaining that rocks need a nerf.

How to survive Alpha Strikes and opponent's first turn?

The first step is list building! WH40k is a strategic game and list building is an important part of the strategy.

If you deploy key units on the field you have to be able to hide them otherwise they might be tabled on enemy T1. IE you must consider losing your Baneblades, Magnus, Mortarion 90% of the times you go 2nd, so if you put 'em in your armies don't expect 'em to survive enemy first shooting phase.

Try to be balanced not to be too much exposed to excessive anti infantry fire or AT fire. IE if you bring 8 tanks and the enemy starts with 20 lascannons great part of your tanks will blown up during T1. Or if you run only infantry and you are against 5 aggressors and Bobby G, during their first 2 turns they'll cripple half of your army.

Try to cover battlefield roles at least in 2x. If you have only one devastator unit with lascannons, once that unit dies or gets engaged you are uncovered against enemy tanks or monsters.

If you need a minimum amount of something to use a combo, DON'T use that minimum but always a bit more. IE if you run 3 predators auto lasers for the stratagem, if you lose one predator you lose the stratagem. If you run instead 4 predators is way harder to kill 2 of 'em and lose their stratagem.

If you have access to scout units take them because they can easily increase the distance between your important units and enemy deepstrikers.

If you don't have access to scout units bring some sacrificial units who will keep the distance between your important units and deepstrikers, and can take the smites in their face. IE you can deploy 10 guardsmen and 3" behind your Leman Russes, so enemy plasmas won't be whithin 12" from the Leman Russes and the guardsmen will absorb enemy smites.

If you have the chance bring some -1 to hit! In a strongly shooting metagame, units like Venomthropes, Malanthropes or traits like Raven Guards, Alpha Legion or Alaitoc are a huge bonus!



The second step is deploying!

Keep units you don't want to be shot in deep strike to avoid opponent's T1.

Start the deployment drops with the units you want to keep in reserve and watch where the enemy is putting their shooting units and keep your units out of their range, so they need to move or to run and they'll have a -1 to hit. IE I run 20 genestealers and those 20 Noise Marines are extremely scary for my infantry, so I deploy deep strikers first and after the opponent will deploy his Noise Marines I will deploy My GS just over 30" from them so if they want to shoot my GS they have to move and run to be whitin 24" and they will hit on a 4+. If you also run some Venomthropes or Malanthropes the opponent will hit you on a 5+,and that Noise Marines are not anymore so scary. That's why is important to deploy your important units last.

If in your deployment zone there are some covers that can hide completely some units from enemy fire, deploy behind that covers your most important buffers! IE in my case I play 3 Venomthropes and there is a building in my deployment area, so I will put the 3 Venomthropes behind that building, they won't be shot and they'll keep giving that delicious -1 to hit against enemy fire to all my infantry.

OBVIOUSLY keep your important infantry units with 3+ or 4+ in cover to increase their surviving chances. IE if you have 5 Devastators in cover they'll have a 2+, so they will be very hard to kill with all the AP- weapons and quite hard to kill with the AP-1 weapons. The majority of anti infantry weapons are AP- and AP-1 and the enemy won't waste his lascannons on your infantry if you have some tanks.

To prevent your units from getting charged on T1 remember that doesn't matter how many bonuses has the enemy to charge, he won't be able to charge stuff over 12" so keep your important units over 3" from your bubblewraps. And voila' those Death Company guys and Bloodletters with their 3d6" charge are not so scary anymore during opponent T1.

Remember Math is your friend! Are you scared about that 10 Slaanesh Terminators with combiplasma in deep strike and Warp Timed? Well they have to be more than 9" from your units, moving again they will be 4" from your units, so you just need to be more than 8" from your unit to prevent them firing whitin 12" and not getting those double plasma shots on your important stuff. That's why is so important to have sacrificial stuff or scouts.



The third step is moving.

Move your units to keep enemy deep strikers back and to close their deep striking areas. IE you play against daemons or GK and there is no enemy important unit on the field, so keep their deep strikers back with your cultists or guardsmen or or hormagaunts or whatever to keep their deep strikers off range from your important units.

Use some of your deep strikers to close their deep strike areas. IE i have a Lictor and 3 ripper swarms and I can easily use those unit to close the uncovered areas in my deployment if I need to do that. For this also scions or other cheap stuff being capable of deep strike is useful.



The fourth step is activating your combos like psychic powers or abilities to buff your units or nerf enemy ones,powers like catalyst giving you a FnP5+ on important units, some -1 to hit or some stratagem that prevent some units from being shot (like DG zombies) and so on. IE you play a Storm Raven and you are afraid that can be killed on opponent's T1? Well, if that SR is whithin 6" from Tigurius it will take an ENORMOUS amount of firepower before dying because the SR will be hit with a -2, -1 because is supersonic and another -1 from Tiggy.



The fifth and last step is being prepared to punish enemy deep strikers who get too close! IE i am facing 90 Bloodletters in Deepstrike, so after they'll deep strike and kill something, my Aggressors will disembark their Repulsor and they will cripple enemy infantry. And if something else will try to deep strike whitin 12" from them the next turn, they can intercept it.

 Karhedron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

So, what can you do with a dread mob if you're facing scion comsquad spam? Of if you're running witch cult and you're facing an ig gunline? What options does the game allow you to use other than scrap your current list and buy a whole lot of new models to build a new one?

That's exactly what i'm telling. There are a lot of lists you can do absolutely nothing against other than build a different list yourself.

That is the problem with building a list that spams just one element rather than bringing a flexible and balanced list. You are always at risk of running into a list that spams your hard counter.

If 40K were a game of rock-paper-scissors, it is like choosing to take a list of scissors and then complaining that rocks need a nerf.

It's really not. It's the problem of the game system. And TAC is a whole different topic. Razorback spam + Girlyman are TAC cause they can kill anything. While Witches + transports + anti-tank + anti-infantry + anti-air + air + monsters + etc... is not TAC because anything can kill it. Spam is TAC. Variable lists are not. At least now.

Well if you are spamming ass can Razorbacks an you face an army with a -1 to hit against enemy fire you just lose in a horrible way.

Even re rolling, having the 1st round of fire you will hit on a 5+ re rolling only 1s and 2s but not 3s and 4s.

And considering that now the majority of vehicles and monsters have T7 and you wound them on a 5+, is not a nice match up.

Anywayz, we've moved away from the topic.

You got to have tough models to survive the alpha-strike. Or some form of deepstrike. No other way.

I think best bet for surviving alpha strikes-

Have few units start out on the table (try to DS as much as possible)
The units on the table be high T (like transports or MCs)
Hide the units in cover or behind LOS as best as possible
Cover your rear zone

 Master Chief VF wrote:
Well if you are spamming ass can Razorbacks an you face an army with a -1 to hit against enemy fire you just lose in a horrible way.

Even re rolling, having the 1st round of fire you will hit on a 5+ re rolling only 1s and 2s but not 3s and 4s.

And considering that now the majority of vehicles and monsters have T7 and you wound them on a 5+, is not a nice match up.

Tipycally the razorback spam and guilliman list also have several lascannons under the bubble. It's the most TAC list ultramarines can have IMHO. Since their melee output is a joke you want them to be a shooty only army in a competitive meta. And the "lascannons+razorbacks+guilliman+some other stuff to complete the list" combo is still the best they can field. And it's actually a very good list in a realisticTAC meta.

I said realistic because outside the most important tournaments things like 30 dark reapers or the now illegal stormravens only list don't exist.

Is there any data out there in regards to win % based on going first or second? I feel like going first is almost always going to provide an advantage due to alpha strikes and I would be curious to see a data analysis

notredameguy10 wrote:
Is there any data out there in regards to win % based on going first or second? I feel like going first is almost always going to provide an advantage due to alpha strikes and I would be curious to see a data analysis

ITC shows going second wins more often than going first- due to how the objectives for that format goes. I believe that was stated by Reece after the LVO this year.

There are some ways to survive an alpha strike, in no particular order:

1.) Units in Tactical reserves - need to consider your opponents army and stratagems when you are picking which units to arrive and where from tactical reserves.

2.) Units in transports- you have to kill the transport first then you get a chance to kill models inside- this often adds 10-20 T7+ 3+ save wounds that have to be eaten through to get to the units inside

3.) Redundancy- If you are worried about your aggressors being killed, having 2+ units increases the chance that one+ survives.

4.) Placement. Terrain, screening, etc. are probably the biggest factor in an unit surviving an alpha strike. If your unit is out of LoS and not near the middle of the table and screened the chance anyone is dropping on them and wiping them out decreases.

5.) Going first- If you have less drops you have a better chance to go first. Reducing unit size by making bigger units (may involve loss of CP), putting units in transports (3 characters + 5 models in a transport takes 5 drops and makes it one drop...) You can't guarantee going first but increasing your chance increases your survival through a tournament

6.) Distraction units. Find an unit that looks threatening and is hardish to kill and put it in the front of your army as a threat. many people will shoot your distraction carnifex/etc if they see it coming straight at them...

ITT some great posts and then one bloke complaining his skew list has limited tactical options

notredameguy10 wrote:
Is there any data out there in regards to win % based on going first or second? I feel like going first is almost always going to provide an advantage due to alpha strikes and I would be curious to see a data analysis

ITC has repeatedly said that going second with their missions wins more often than not; I'm not sure of the source of that data though since BCP doesn't have a place in the app to record that and at least at LVO it wasn't asked. I think there's more to it though: anecdotally today I tabled a Harlequin list (BRB missions) with Custodes bikers on turn 2 and he went first...because my list was better suited against him. So I don't know how many of those "going second" victories are actually due to list/army matchup; if your list is vastly better than your opponent's you might choose to go second for last word on objectives. I still believe that going first is generally better though because for 3/4 of the points in a given turn it doesn't matter and taking out chunks of your opponent's firepower before it can damage you is huge (and as I've pointed out in other threads, the champions missions favor killing your opponent rather than objective grabbing).

As far as general guidance though, I think another consideration is mental attitude. You have to accept that on the first turn in 8th edition, whether you go first or second, you are going to lose a large chunk of your army. I've seen quite a few players take perfectly normal damage (for 8th) turn 1 and then mentally give up because they don't think they can win. Play to win always, because your return salvo is probably stronger than you think and you still have a chance.