The Origin of the Emperor's Wariness Toward Xenos?

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**Pacific**

An interesting question would be - how much of that is the Emporer, how much what the High Lords of Terra have made doctrine in the years since?

You would have to think that the Crusade had a lot more to gain, than to lose, by allowing certain alien empires to exist within its borders - I'm not talking about Nids, or Orks, but other humanoids that perhaps only trade or have tech or resources they could give to the crusade in leiu of being wiped out by an (extremely expensive) course of genocide.

**John Prins**

Ynneadwraith wrote:

The only mental gymnastics required for a tyrant to view their actions as moral is to equate 'necessary' with 'good'.

There's a big difference between 'necessary for the nation's good' and 'necessary for me to stay in power'.

**Ynneadwraith**

John Prins wrote:
Ynneadwraith wrote:

The only mental gymnastics required for a tyrant to view their actions as moral is to equate 'necessary' with 'good'.

There's a big difference between 'necessary for the nation's good' and 'necessary for me to stay in power'.

Not if you believe you're the only one who can run the nation properly, which again is common in pretty much all levels of human interaction (if you want something done right do it yourself finds its basis in this).

**Racerguy180**

I wouldn't say big e is a sociopath, due to the warp existing outside of time/real space you get kind of a "which came first the chicken or the egg"? If at some point he becomes a nascent entity in the warp, he technically (as if the warp could be) has always existed in real space/time. so that warp presence would give him an outlook that no other being (that we know of) the kind of insight that normals couldn't comprehend.

**pm713**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
The Imperium attacked any Xenos they found including ones happily allied with humans as equals and they killed the humans too. The Imperium has never been after peace only the death of everything else.

The Emperor definitely isn't after what's best for Humanity either. Too much of his behaviour runs counter to that.

In MoM he talks about how he planned to save humanity from chaos by using the webway and killing all psykers. He calls this the Eldars mistake that they had the webway, so were not dependent on the warp but did not make the logical leap and so were destroyed.

That is evil. Its probably very mistaken for a host of reasons, since a recurring them of the Horus Heresy is that the Imperium arrogantly assumes it won't make the same mistakes the Eldar did and get wrecked by Chaos. But, he is motivated by a compulsion to free humanity from Chaos. He comes across as an extremely logical, utilitarian, almost soulless "machine man with a machine mind". Whose vision of the future and perception of time is so otherworldly and ethereal that he does not think in terms of individual lives being significant; only the "future of the human race".

For example, its increasingly being inferred or stated that Horus fear that the Emperor would get rid of them after the Great Crusade and that he didn't care about them was entirely correct. The Emperor only wanted the marines as a tool to solve a problem to further humanities development. Which fits with the idea that his lack of compassion and trust is a major reason why Horus is corrupted to Chaos.

Its a bit like saying Stalin had the interests of the Soviet Union in mind with his decisions. Its not incorrect. The problem was that they were the wrong decisions and very few Soviets were okay with them. I don't think Stalins behavior makes sense unless he believed he was creating a socialist society and protecting it from outside threats. Its an end justifies the means thing.

They were destroyed by their own hubris. How does the Emperor know any of that anyway?

The only problem I have is the end is stupid as are the means. He acts like Primarchs are tools then turns around and refuses to dispose of broken tools when he can e.g. Angron. The problem is basically stemming from the fact that Heresy was a background bit we didn't know about and then it was expanded on by a company that doesn't do quality control.

**Iracundus**

Would not be the first time that someone thought they could handle a dangerous tool or animal, only to come to grief. The Emperor probably thought he could still get some use out of Angron before discarding, and misjudged the timing.

**pm713**

He was also just stupid about it. At such a risky point in the grand plan why take so many chances?

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
He was also just stupid about it. At such a risky point in the grand plan why take so many chances?

it's possiable that it wasn't a chance at all. Had Magnus not screwed up the webway project it's increiably possiable that the heresy would have been a mild annoyance at best, allowing the emperor a chance to cull a handfull of legions he had no long term need of

**GrapeApe**

Iracundus wrote:
Using the original background of the Emperor as a reincarnation of all the ancient human (proto-human?) shamans:

I would argue that the Emperor never did overcome his original Purpose or programming as a reincarnation of all the old shamans. All his attempts through the ages to try and encourage "harmony" for humanity failed because humanity had developed and advanced beyond the simple paleolithic or neolithic society of the shamans. He was trying to turn back the clock. Humanity was not so easily controlled and the Emperor's attempts at just influencing either did not have enough effect, or grew out of his control into things he did not want.

I see the Great Crusade and the Emperor coming out as a warlord and leader as an act of desperation or impatience. With events and humanity spiralling out of control and humanity spread across the galaxy, things were slipping further and faster beyond the Emperor's grasp and ability to influence on any large scale. The Crusade was one drastic attempt to control all of humanity. However part of the reason for its failure was the fact it was an externally imposed form of political control on the masses, with little change on their internal natures.

In short, the exasperated Emperor had lost patience with trying to slowly enlighten humanity and decided to browbeat humanity into obedience and compliance. That might account for his blindness to the discontent among the Primarchs. Having seemingly met with unmatched success with this new direct method of the Great Crusade after so thousands of years of failure, the Emperor was in a hurry to enact the next step in his plan and thus hurried back to Terra, missing or ignoring the discontent that would ultimately explode into the Heresy. A bit of succumbing to human affection for Horus would have compounded the blindness.

You know Iracundus, i have to say your theory actually makes the most sense given all the other alternatives thus far.

Espeically this bit:

I see the Great Crusade and the Emperor coming out as a warlord and leader as an act of desperation or impatience.

Prior to the Hours Heresy being written up, when this was still an "Age of Mythology" that we could fill in with our own head canon, we could come up with a variety of alternatives for the Emperor's actions.

Post-Heresy Novels, The "Hype" about the Emperor being this Master Chess-player of Cosmic Proportions with a Master Plan etc. etc. seems to have tanked.

Powerful? Sure. Intelligent? of course.

But missing a lot of key ingredients that make up a Human being and still retaining a lot of our bad characteristics.

Its kind of funny - i have this image in my head of the Emperor in an Issac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke type of novel/scenario being bewildered not by the amazing technology (or heck the Monolith... we all know its a Necron Monolith damn it

) but just how far and distant human beings were becoming from what they previously were.

His solution is delightfully Cavemanish in a way no? - "Put Crown on top of Head, Me Declare Self as Big Ape, Little Apes Follow Me."

That is the Imperium isn't it? Its the Ancient Human Hierarchy writ large across a whole Cosmos.

And yet with such a blunt instrument/plan... he wished to accomplish so many complicated things....

**Racerguy180**

GrapeApe wrote:

Powerful? Sure. Intelligent? of course.

But missing a lot of key ingredients that make up a Human being and still retaining a lot of our bad characteristics.

This sums up what I think big e is. since he's so far removed from mortality and so "whole nother level" intelligence wise. he's not above simple follies like; hubris, over confidence, etc he shows just how human he still is. His success with the great crusade inflated the already "too big for his britches" trope in regards to his thoughts/feelings about Horus. Not without help from chaos tho.

**GrapeApe**

Racerguy180 wrote:
GrapeApe wrote:

Powerful? Sure. Intelligent? of course.

But missing a lot of key ingredients that make up a Human being and still retaining a lot of our bad characteristics.

This sums up what I think big e is. since he's so far removed from mortality and so "whole nother level" intelligence wise. he's not above simple follies like; hubris, over confidence, etc he shows just how human he still is. His success with the great crusade inflated the already "too big for his britches" trope in regards to his thoughts/feelings about Horus. Not without help from chaos tho.

I guess its like that old saying in the US about "You can take the Girl out of Jersey, but you can't take Jersey out of the Girl."

Except its more like "You can take the Super-Powered Demi-God out of the Primordial Neanderthal cave..."

**Iracundus**

Nothing breeds hubris better than success. The apparent runaway success of the direct method could easily have gotten to his head. The Great Crusade seemed to be in its last mop up stages. While there might have been some simmering discontent among the Primarchs and Legions, the Emperor might have thought he could handle them the way he had handled the Thunder Warriors, especially if he had good ol'Horus to help out. He may have viewed it as similar to the transition from unifying Terra to starting the Great Crusade, a transition he successfully managed.

Combination of hubris and unintentionally giving in to trust and affection for Horus leading to what we as readers see as mistakes and blindness. Also we need to be wary of judging with the benefit of hindsight. If he had succeeded like with the Thunder Warriors, would we be be less harsh in judging?

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
He was also just stupid about it. At such a risky point in the grand plan why take so many chances?

it's possiable that it wasn't a chance at all. Had Magnus not screwed up the webway project it's increiably possiable that the heresy would have been a mild annoyance at best, allowing the emperor a chance to cull a handfull of legions he had no long term need of

It's not. Even if the Webway project had succeeded then they would have had to work out a way through a labyrinth. Except the labyrinth itself is trying to kill them, it's full of Dark Eldar trying to kill them, Craftworlders trying to kill them and Harlequins trying to kill them. It's actually worse than Warp travel.

**SideSwipe**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
He was also just stupid about it. At such a risky point in the grand plan why take so many chances?

it's possiable that it wasn't a chance at all. Had Magnus not screwed up the webway project it's increiably possiable that the heresy would have been a mild annoyance at best, allowing the emperor a chance to cull a handfull of legions he had no long term need of

It's not. Even if the Webway project had succeeded then they would have had to work out a way through a labyrinth. Except the labyrinth itself is trying to kill them, it's full of Dark Eldar trying to kill them, Craftworlders trying to kill them and Harlequins trying to kill them. It's actually worse than Warp travel.

The Eldar were reeling at the time. It's unclear if the Harlequins were about, as their first appearance on the galactic stage only happened millennia later. The Dark Eldar were being led by self destructive noble houses, that wouldn't fall to Vect's rule for thousands of years.

Invading the Webway had problems, but sorting out the Eldar would not have been one of them. Especially when you consider ship to ship fighting in the tunnels of the webway negates their primary advantage of maneuverability due to the relatively narrow spaces.

**pm713**

SideSwipe wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
He was also just stupid about it. At such a risky point in the grand plan why take so many chances?

it's possiable that it wasn't a chance at all. Had Magnus not screwed up the webway project it's increiably possiable that the heresy would have been a mild annoyance at best, allowing the emperor a chance to cull a handfull of legions he had no long term need of

It's not. Even if the Webway project had succeeded then they would have had to work out a way through a labyrinth. Except the labyrinth itself is trying to kill them, it's full of Dark Eldar trying to kill them, Craftworlders trying to kill them and Harlequins trying to kill them. It's actually worse than Warp travel.

The Eldar were reeling at the time. It's unclear if the Harlequins were about, as their first appearance on the galactic stage only happened millennia later. The Dark Eldar were being led by self destructive noble houses, that wouldn't fall to Vect's rule for thousands of years.

Invading the Webway had problems, but sorting out the Eldar would not have been one of them. Especially when you consider ship to ship fighting in the tunnels of the webway negates their primary advantage of maneuverability due to the relatively narrow spaces.

Considering the only access way was the Golden Throne which caps the Imperium at Titans the Eldar had a huge advantage. Even pre Vect Dark Eldar would be attacking and Eldar have all their spaceships etc able to be used. On top of that nothing stops some radical flat out sealing off the Imperial section of the Webway and breaching it intentionally.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
SideSwipe wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
He was also just stupid about it. At such a risky point in the grand plan why take so many chances?

it's possiable that it wasn't a chance at all. Had Magnus not screwed up the webway project it's increiably possiable that the heresy would have been a mild annoyance at best, allowing the emperor a chance to cull a handfull of legions he had no long term need of

It's not. Even if the Webway project had succeeded then they would have had to work out a way through a labyrinth. Except the labyrinth itself is trying to kill them, it's full of Dark Eldar trying to kill them, Craftworlders trying to kill them and Harlequins trying to kill them. It's actually worse than Warp travel.

The Eldar were reeling at the time. It's unclear if the Harlequins were about, as their first appearance on the galactic stage only happened millennia later. The Dark Eldar were being led by self destructive noble houses, that wouldn't fall to Vect's rule for thousands of years.

Invading the Webway had problems, but sorting out the Eldar would not have been one of them. Especially when you consider ship to ship fighting in the tunnels of the webway negates their primary advantage of maneuverability due to the relatively narrow spaces.

Considering the only access way was the Golden Throne which caps the Imperium at Titans the Eldar had a huge advantage. Even pre Vect Dark Eldar would be attacking and Eldar have all their spaceships etc able to be used. On top of that nothing stops some radical flat out sealing off the Imperial section of the Webway and breaching it intentionally.

Do you think the Emperor didn't have a plan for dealing with the Eldar?

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
SideSwipe wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
He was also just stupid about it. At such a risky point in the grand plan why take so many chances?

it's possiable that it wasn't a chance at all. Had Magnus not screwed up the webway project it's increiably possiable that the heresy would have been a mild annoyance at best, allowing the emperor a chance to cull a handfull of legions he had no long term need of

It's not. Even if the Webway project had succeeded then they would have had to work out a way through a labyrinth. Except the labyrinth itself is trying to kill them, it's full of Dark Eldar trying to kill them, Craftworlders trying to kill them and Harlequins trying to kill them. It's actually worse than Warp travel.

The Eldar were reeling at the time. It's unclear if the Harlequins were about, as their first appearance on the galactic stage only happened millennia later. The Dark Eldar were being led by self destructive noble houses, that wouldn't fall to Vect's rule for thousands of years.

Invading the Webway had problems, but sorting out the Eldar would not have been one of them. Especially when you consider ship to ship fighting in the tunnels of the webway negates their primary advantage of maneuverability due to the relatively narrow spaces.

Considering the only access way was the Golden Throne which caps the Imperium at Titans the Eldar had a huge advantage. Even pre Vect Dark Eldar would be attacking and Eldar have all their spaceships etc able to be used. On top of that nothing stops some radical flat out sealing off the Imperial section of the Webway and breaching it intentionally.

Do you think the Emperor didn't have a plan for dealing with the Eldar?

Yes. He's repeatedly shown to make huge oversights and is incredibly arrogant. On top of that it's never really been shown how if at all he knows about things like the Eldar activities.