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 LunarSol wrote:
The main problem with Warmahordes honestly seems to be that everyone is convinced there's something wrong with Warmahordes.

While I agree that some of the perceived issues with WMH are purely imaginary or even self inflicted, WMH does have quite a few actual issues that seriously need to be addressed going forward. I don't think we need another thread about WMH's flaws, so feel free to reference one of the dozens here for more information.

Will a new CEO be able to address these problems? I really hope so. I used to like Warmachine and I currently like MonPoc, and I'd hate to think that PP is beyond saving. Maybe this CEO will make PP great again. MPPGA!

Couple that with a hardcore tourney crowd unwilling to play below 75....

This is definitely one of the self inflicted ones.

My biggest and real issue issue with WMH are the local playerbase,

As usual, most players are great, fun people, but of all the systems I've played WMH has the hightest number of *&^%wads by far. I put it down to the competitive nature of the game attracting a certain type of person, but that's just my perspective.

Which is a shame, because I love the game, the minis, the rules, the fluff.

Can anything be done at the top to combat this? I don't know, but I do know I miss WMH.

 LunarSol wrote:

 skullking wrote:

That said, I too hope this CEO can turn things around for them. Warmahordes is a good game, but I guess people feel it needs an overhaul? Monpoc was great, have yet to try the new one.
I just hope they focus on fixing whatever’s wrong (I personally think it’s fine...) with warmahordes before they start side tracking into other (board/card/video) games.

I have no idea. Personally, I think both games are the best they've ever been currently. The main problem with Warmahordes honestly seems to be that everyone is convinced there's something wrong with Warmahordes. They're stuck in a lot of ways too, with problems like too many Warcasters and a community that would crucify them if they dared to remove one. (Sorscha2 is awful but she'd be a fine proxy for Sorscha1, IMO) My gut says that for all the reasons bandied about, the real issue is simply price. It's a large scale game that comes at a large scale price, but for much of its high period, its price was being obscured by online discounts. Couple that with a hardcore tourney crowd unwilling to play below 75 and you've got a pretty massive sticker shock for new players or updating armies.

I think the easiest solution would to take a play from Magic's and X-Wing's play book and make a "Standard" format. Create a Competitive Season that lasts for x number of months. In each season, the list of available Warcasters (and maybe units, jacks and solos, if necessary) are greatly curtailed. So instead of a whole gamut of Warcasters, you only have say 4 or 5. Cap the games at 50 points as well.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 skullking wrote:

That said, I too hope this CEO can turn things around for them. Warmahordes is a good game, but I guess people feel it needs an overhaul? Monpoc was great, have yet to try the new one.
I just hope they focus on fixing whatever’s wrong (I personally think it’s fine...) with warmahordes before they start side tracking into other (board/card/video) games.

I have no idea. Personally, I think both games are the best they've ever been currently. The main problem with Warmahordes honestly seems to be that everyone is convinced there's something wrong with Warmahordes. They're stuck in a lot of ways too, with problems like too many Warcasters and a community that would crucify them if they dared to remove one. (Sorscha2 is awful but she'd be a fine proxy for Sorscha1, IMO) My gut says that for all the reasons bandied about, the real issue is simply price. It's a large scale game that comes at a large scale price, but for much of its high period, its price was being obscured by online discounts. Couple that with a hardcore tourney crowd unwilling to play below 75 and you've got a pretty massive sticker shock for new players or updating armies.

The price is pretty insane, here in the UK anyway. Makes me understand how GW buyers outside the UK feel. The cryx trollkin guys with the fiery chain weapons cost £78 here, after discount. I’ve been known to spend a lot on models, and I love the models and the world and the game (although I haven’t played a lot), but I feel pretty priced out at the moment.

Wow, £78 after discounts is 101 USD. That's really expensive, considering the unit costs 90 USD.

Oh, it’s just a really expensive set everywhere then.

 .Mikes. wrote:
My biggest and real issue issue with WMH are the local playerbase,

As usual, most players are great, fun people, but of all the systems I've played WMH has the hightest number of *&^%wads by far. I put it down to the competitive nature of the game attracting a certain type of person, but that's just my perspective.

Which is a shame, because I love the game, the minis, the rules, the fluff.

Can anything be done at the top to combat this? I don't know, but I do know I miss WMH.

This was my experience, too. Between combos, dumb pricing for PVC, and hypercompetitive and/or just plain jerky player issues, I eventually just got worn down by the game. I miss it, but there were a lot of obstacles to having fun at times...

I think there's a few things they could consider/do

1) Get their PG system back in place in some form. They need some means to get at least one person per club to have a vested interest in promoting their game. Otherwise the yare relying on 3rd party stores to do that work for them and honestly Wargames just don't make enough money to make it worth it for them. They'd far rather focus on Magic and Yugio. Even GW games don't get pushed as heavily in 3rd party stores.

2) They need to get back to their roots. The Theme system has become unfriendly to new games and has honestly taken the heart out of building armies. Both for the competitive and the casual gamer I think.

3) They need to restore their forums to their old glory and at least get back on track with online marketing in a big way - they need to take a leaf from GW on this (though not quite the same scale - PP isn't the same size as GW so trying to copy perfectly would be way too much investment than is healthy).

4) A MKIV I think needs to come out and they need to use that to clean house; tidy up the rules and make the game more accessible to gamers.

I think they've burned a lot of their casual and newbie market and relied too strongly and let their competitive market lead them a little too much. Whilst its led to a tighter rules system I think they've lost their fun appeal for the casual and new gamer. That's a bad approach because it means they are essentially shutting down new player recruitment and that means an ever dwindling customer base.

I was hoping for Tom Kirby myself.

 Red_Five wrote:

I think the easiest solution would to take a play from Magic's and X-Wing's play book and make a "Standard" format. Create a Competitive Season that lasts for x number of months. In each season, the list of available Warcasters (and maybe units, jacks and solos, if necessary) are greatly curtailed. So instead of a whole gamut of Warcasters, you only have say 4 or 5. Cap the games at 50 points as well. .

They’ve sort of done this but like most attempts to make the game accessible it’s been rejected by the hardcore tourney crowd.

 Overread wrote:


4) A MKIV I think needs to come out and they need to use that to clean house; tidy up the rules and make the game more accessible to gamers.

That was the aim of MkIII, wasn't it?

 LunarSol wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

I think the easiest solution would to take a play from Magic's and X-Wing's play book and make a "Standard" format. Create a Competitive Season that lasts for x number of months. In each season, the list of available Warcasters (and maybe units, jacks and solos, if necessary) are greatly curtailed. So instead of a whole gamut of Warcasters, you only have say 4 or 5. Cap the games at 50 points as well. .

They’ve sort of done this but like most attempts to make the game accessible it’s been rejected by the hardcore tourney crowd.

Yeah, they have a rotating format called Champions where you’re only allowed three different Warcasters and two Theme Forces. I doubt they work towards lowering the point size though, as they’ve actually worked to Raise it. Bigger games mean more models after all.

 Overread wrote:

2) They need to get back to their roots. The Theme system has become unfriendly to new games and has honestly taken the heart out of building armies. Both for the competitive and the casual gamer I think.

I disagree. I think the theme system is necessary, given how large and diverse each of the armies are. They need to be broken down into smaller groups, and I'm thrilled that most factions have jack-heavy themes for those that want that kind of thing (I did, and during Mk2, there were only one or two warcasters who could run jack heavy). It allows for different playstyles within the factions and has given PP a direction to go with future models (I thought the Man-O-War and Tharn themes had some of their best models).

It also makes it easier for new players, since it gives direction on how to build their armies. Instead of having 77 different units they could potentially use (all but 7 of them, used in a specific organization, creating a losing army), the theme tells them which subset of models to focus on. Generally speaking, the themes also play towards a specific playstyle, allowing players to pick their playstyle, pick a matching theme, and generally have a better clue at building armies towards that goal.

What doesn't work is the free models for taking a theme. It makes the tournament minded people REE, as they consider an extra model to be an overpowered reward (and it kind of is). They should rethink the theme system, but not abandon it.

 AduroT wrote:
Love the concept for Master Baldwin and Mister Clogg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
"Railless'...? We'll just see about that...

I love the rocketmen and the little robot guy. Is this a new faction, or a Khador off-shoot? The 'jacks look very Khador.

It’s another new limited release faction like the Grymkin. A one and done kind of deal.

They are coming out with new pre-order models for the Grymkin. Is it certain they are limited at this point?

Bring back Prime and make the battlebox (or battlegroup) plus a unit of this and 1-2 solos the standard play level.

This game system is circling the drain... The secondary market always will give you clues to the health of a system. When players can't unload figs for 75% off and stores have racks at 50% off with no movement..... Man the lifeboats boys

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Love the concept for Master Baldwin and Mister Clogg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
"Railless'...? We'll just see about that...

I love the rocketmen and the little robot guy. Is this a new faction, or a Khador off-shoot? The 'jacks look very Khador.

It’s another new limited release faction like the Grymkin. A one and done kind of deal.

They are coming out with new pre-order models for the Grymkin. Is it certain they are limited at this point?

Yeah, they release stuff from time to time. But it's not like the Grymkin are getting a new warlock this time around or anything.

 privateer4hire wrote:
Bring back Prime and make the battlebox (or battlegroup) plus a unit of this and 1-2 solos the standard play level.

That’s the standard I like to play the game. Unfortunately, no one will play games at that level anymore.

Sqorgar wrote:

 Overread wrote:

2) They need to get back to their roots. The Theme system has become unfriendly to new games and has honestly taken the heart out of building armies. Both for the competitive and the casual gamer I think.

I disagree. I think the theme system is necessary, given how large and diverse each of the armies are. They need to be broken down into smaller groups, and I'm thrilled that most factions have jack-heavy themes for those that want that kind of thing (I did, and during Mk2, there were only one or two warcasters who could run jack heavy). It allows for different playstyles within the factions and has given PP a direction to go with future models (I thought the Man-O-War and Tharn themes had some of their best models).

It also makes it easier for new players, since it gives direction on how to build their armies. Instead of having 77 different units they could potentially use (all but 7 of them, used in a specific organization, creating a losing army), the theme tells them which subset of models to focus on. Generally speaking, the themes also play towards a specific playstyle, allowing players to pick their playstyle, pick a matching theme, and generally have a better clue at building armies towards that goal.

What doesn't work is the free models for taking a theme. It makes the tournament minded people REE, as they consider an extra model to be an overpowered reward (and it kind of is). They should rethink the theme system, but not abandon it.

Yeah, I love the theme lists. And though I like that anyone can use any theme now, it does make more sense that certain casters would only have certain themes (ie Sorcha 3 with ManOwars, and Kromac with Tharn, etc...). Now it's more, "which caster has the most warbeast points, so I can use 3 Gargantuan in a 75pt list?", and "how many free units/solos can I add by adhering to the theme?"

privateer4hire wrote:Bring back Prime and make the battlebox (or battlegroup) plus a unit of this and 1-2 solos the standard play level.

Though I have fond memories of those days, the game is a bit too big and mutated for that now. Despite units like the ManOwars having always existed, they balanced out since Khador had no light jacks. Now everyone has a multi-wound unit of some sort. You have a lot of differentiation with solos as well. Then you have to add in Unit attachments, jack Marshalls, Battle Engines, Colossals (which I realize are part of a battle group, but, THEY HUGE!), and of course, Hordes... All of which I think have significantly improved the game from where it started, but, maybe they need to rebalance it again?

LunarSol wrote:

 skullking wrote:

That said, I too hope this CEO can turn things around for them. Warmahordes is a good game, but I guess people feel it needs an overhaul? Monpoc was great, have yet to try the new one.
I just hope they focus on fixing whatever’s wrong (I personally think it’s fine...) with warmahordes before they start side tracking into other (board/card/video) games.

I have no idea. Personally, I think both games are the best they've ever been currently. The main problem with Warmahordes honestly seems to be that everyone is convinced there's something wrong with Warmahordes. They're stuck in a lot of ways too, with problems like too many Warcasters and a community that would crucify them if they dared to remove one. (Sorscha2 is awful but she'd be a fine proxy for Sorscha1, IMO) My gut says that for all the reasons bandied about, the real issue is simply price. It's a large scale game that comes at a large scale price, but for much of its high period, its price was being obscured by online discounts. Couple that with a hardcore tourney crowd unwilling to play below 75 and you've got a pretty massive sticker shock for new players or updating armies.

Yeah, I'm not sure if the majority of people would prefer them to make new iterations of the characters they have, or create new casters to fill the roles they need. I personally would enjoy if every caster was a different person, but I think PP likes to tie the new versions of classic casters to what's happening in the fluff. I've never cared for the fluff, but it's easily avoided, and since others like it, I'm fine with it taking such a key role. I think it's fun that they want to create journeymen of some of the original warcasters, but I don't like the idea that I can't use them with their actual 'grown up' versions. Obviously, no one you'd be playing with would likely care, but stupid war room probably won't let you make a list with both.

highlord tamburlaine wrote:Seeing Chronopia get a more modernized updated facelift would be amazing. Dial up all the gears and clockwork of the firstborn, make the Devout even more spikey and evil, push the dwarf totems even farther... Stygians... oh man. I absolutely would love to see that game come back!

YES!! Though I've always felt the devout were a rather sad rip off of GW Chaos, I think they could be tweeked into something interesting. The Firstborn are definitely what GW based the Sigmarines on, they're just too similar. And the Dwarves of the Ringhold, with their Blood Totems were AMAZING!!! They were basically like a 'Hordes' warlock, with the different clan animals, and I loved how they looked somewhere between Normal GW dwarfs, and Chaos Dwarfs. I don't remember a lot about the stygians, but as I recall, they were lizard men with more of an Ancient Egyptian Theme, vs Aztec like GW? The real stand-outs for me were the Black bloods, Extremely Noble and well groomed Orcs, Ogres, Goblins, and Trolls. I believe they had sort of an ancient Persian, or some sort of middle eastern vibe? They were very cool.

Unfortunately, the majority of the miniatures weren't very good, and I think that ended up being what hurt sales in the long run. I'm glad I bought all the ones I liked before they got too expensive.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Overread wrote:

2) They need to get back to their roots. The Theme system has become unfriendly to new games and has honestly taken the heart out of building armies. Both for the competitive and the casual gamer I think.

I disagree. I think the theme system is necessary, given how large and diverse each of the armies are. They need to be broken down into smaller groups, and I'm thrilled that most factions have jack-heavy themes for those that want that kind of thing (I did, and during Mk2, there were only one or two warcasters who could run jack heavy). It allows for different playstyles within the factions and has given PP a direction to go with future models (I thought the Man-O-War and Tharn themes had some of their best models).

It also makes it easier for new players, since it gives direction on how to build their armies. Instead of having 77 different units they could potentially use (all but 7 of them, used in a specific organization, creating a losing army), the theme tells them which subset of models to focus on. Generally speaking, the themes also play towards a specific playstyle, allowing players to pick their playstyle, pick a matching theme, and generally have a better clue at building armies towards that goal.

What doesn't work is the free models for taking a theme. It makes the tournament minded people REE, as they consider an extra model to be an overpowered reward (and it kind of is). They should rethink the theme system, but not abandon it.

The problem with Theme Forces is the free models, not because free models is OP, but because it messes with Solo balance. The cost of a Solo is almost irrelevant because you’re getting them for free most of the time.

 AduroT wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

I think the easiest solution would to take a play from Magic's and X-Wing's play book and make a "Standard" format. Create a Competitive Season that lasts for x number of months. In each season, the list of available Warcasters (and maybe units, jacks and solos, if necessary) are greatly curtailed. So instead of a whole gamut of Warcasters, you only have say 4 or 5. Cap the games at 50 points as well. .

They’ve sort of done this but like most attempts to make the game accessible it’s been rejected by the hardcore tourney crowd.

Yeah, they have a rotating format called Champions where you’re only allowed three different Warcasters and two Theme Forces. I doubt they work towards lowering the point size though, as they’ve actually worked to Raise it. Bigger games mean more models after all.

PP has a lot of power to dictate what it wants from the community. They just need to incentivize the 50 point game, limited Warcaster format. FFG is doing this by making half the competitive tournaments and Worlds Hypserspace format (the limited format). Magic does this by pushing Standard and Draft at most Pro Tours and MagicFests. What PP really needs to find out is what will motivate competitive players to turn out in large number to an event that is designed to be more welcoming to newer players.

 LunarSol wrote:

 skullking wrote:

That said, I too hope this CEO can turn things around for them. Warmahordes is a good game, but I guess people feel it needs an overhaul? Monpoc was great, have yet to try the new one.
I just hope they focus on fixing whatever’s wrong (I personally think it’s fine...) with warmahordes before they start side tracking into other (board/card/video) games.

I have no idea. Personally, I think both games are the best they've ever been currently. The main problem with Warmahordes honestly seems to be that everyone is convinced there's something wrong with Warmahordes. They're stuck in a lot of ways too, with problems like too many Warcasters and a community that would crucify them if they dared to remove one. (Sorscha2 is awful but she'd be a fine proxy for Sorscha1, IMO) My gut says that for all the reasons bandied about, the real issue is simply price. It's a large scale game that comes at a large scale price, but for much of its high period, its price was being obscured by online discounts. Couple that with a hardcore tourney crowd unwilling to play below 75 and you've got a pretty massive sticker shock for new players or updating armies.

I feel like the game is fine - they just need to fix the poor quality of their minis and actually, actively work on trimming the line a bit and redoing super old minis. If they're going to stick with resin, fine. But 75% of the range is either super old metal or god-awful PVC (and overpriced for what it is). Also they need to fix whatever the problem is that is making their paint so damn hard to find. Also figure out some way to deliver their fluff going forward. The only PP stuff I bought last year was the NQ Prime (and was enjoying it) then it abruptly stopped.

Am glad to see the artbook KS (even though I have no interest) I hope it's successful enough they finally do a lore compendium too eventually.

Iirc their paint is hard to find because they’re switching factories or whatever where it’s made, so simply haven’t had any made in several months now. Irregardless, our FLGS stopped carrying it and replaced it with a big rack of Army Painter.

 AduroT wrote:
Iirc their paint is hard to find because they’re switching factories or whatever where it’s made, so simply haven’t had any made in several months now. Irregardless, our FLGS stopped carrying it and replaced it with a big rack of Army Painter.

Both of my local stores are swapping AP in, which while AP is great and has the best damn washes, makes me sad because I purposefully have been switching my paints from decades of Citadel to P3 ... which is now mostly a special order affair, and hence no longer as cost effective as it was Still good stuff IMO, and wider used than I suspected.

As for themes, one of the things I really loved about MK2 was that theme lists rewarded weird af skew lists and us outliers who wanted to take less-obvious units, thereby also increasing the variety of the meta. Themes in MK3 just feel like a GeeDub-esque way to make you buy more models, since you are straight up playing with less points if you don't go theme and get your freebies. Messing with lists, even I soon got over even considering playing out of theme

As for WMH, I do miss the game. I think there are some local newbies trying to play this new game they picked up, and some vets who could be rallied. My brother in law picked up preposterous amounts of Khador about a year ago, seems like reason enough to finally build my mountain of Cryx, spray it black and throw 2-4 dice around.

I also hear the call of Infernals to make something happen this summer ...

I don't know about Bob Watts, most of the previous companies he ran no longer exist. But Privateer Press needs something new to pull them from the fire.. Maybe Bob is it.

I agree they need to bring back the forums and Press Gangers in some form. Maybe having someone to police the curb stomper players to play nice will help bring back new players.

But just this week Miniature Market had a sale on their web site that advertised PP stuff for up to 90% off. As someone mentioned on a lot of 2nd hand selling websites that many people are
taking large cuts to try to sale it and it still not moving.

P3's definitely my favorite paint line. Really good pigment coverage and for the most part it doesn't seem to separate or dry out as quickly as Citadel. Bright colors are where I like it best. Red, Orange, Yellow in particular. I've gotten to where I use Citadel for heavy use colors just because its easier to get locally when I run out, but there's a whole set of colors I find pretty irreplaceable.

I'm personally a big fan of themes. They inject a lot of faction identity and playstyle without locking a faction into a gimmick. They also make the game generally look a lot better than it did in MK2. I've been a lot happier with a couple factions in MK3 than I was with a half dozen in MK2, but that did require trimming some of my excessive factions down to a favorite theme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Genoside07 wrote:

But just this week Miniature Market had a sale on their web site that advertised PP stuff for up to 90% off.

Bit of a gimmick. There were definitely some legitimately good deals in the sale, but most of them are in the 25-30%. Basically what they used to offer before the MRPP. You can get a lot of stuff for less from DGI. The 90% stuff was like.... old issues of NQ and MK2 books and token sets.

P3 is also nice for airbrushing, really creamy result with the proper medium in there.

Just checked out the MM sale, some decent 35-50% off stuff, but I own just about everything I could want, especially for Skorne. Also if y'all don't know, Chaosorc has had a bunch of WMH on 40% off for half a year or more now. I've somehow avoided buying all four desert hydras at $66 or whatever a pop.

EDIT: But I have wanted to do a terribad Madhammer basher spam list for a long time now .........

It's probably not bad at all. People grossly underestimate the importance of actually owning the models when it comes to model viability.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I don't know about Bob Watts, most of the previous companies he ran no longer exist. But Privateer Press needs something new to pull them from the fire.. Maybe Bob is it.

Well sabertooth was a GW subsidiary and they shut that one down when they decided to licenses out things like CCGs and RPG so really only Heartbreaker closed down. Even including sabertooth in as not existing GW, WoTC and Cerberus are still around so most is a very inaccurate statement as 3/5 are still in existence and really one of the two was folded into the parent company.

I will bring in the perspective of a game store owner. There has been a lot of comment about the value of game stores to promote game lines. I don't want to get into that debate. But if you accept that it is vital to have your miniatures games being played in game store (and GW's whole model is built around that idea), then Privateer Press is in real trouble. There are two groups of problems that they must solve. The first is how to help brick and mortar stores sell their product and two, how to make the game appeal to new gamers. I used to be able to sell books and cards as well as miniatures for WMH. Now I can only sell miniatures as their move to electronic media has disposed for the need for books and cards. Since I don't sell I-phones or Apps, they effectively cut my revenue stream. Another effect of moving their cards online is that the community views and decides the value of a model before it is released. I have to make commitments to my distributors to buy those miniatures long before they are rated by the community. Often, when a model is finally released, the community has decided it has no value, and I end up with several skues I cannot sell. Also, for the audience they wish to target (13 year olds to grow the hobby) you cannot assume that they all have access to I-phones and computers. PP needs to put the stat cards back into the miniatures packs. Other fixes include going back to making books. Creating a magazine with value (new rules and units) to hype their game. That would help me to sell their product, books, cards, a magazine.


On the game side, it is too competitive. Timed turns with chess clocks intimidate new players. Another feature of the game that I have noticed is micro-management. Micro management of your movement AND your opponent's movement. Due to the fact that you can premeasure so many things and you have non-variable movement rates, combined with the fact that a caster kill is what is most desirable, turns evolve into negotiations and sometimes fights as players jockey their pieces into position. I don't want my opponent constantly micro-managing my movement for me. That is just not fun. I think this could be solved by making run and charge rates random, move +d6 for instance. Since there is no way to be sure exactly how far a piece will move, there is no reason to spend time trying to make sure your model is a micro-millimeter out of range. Another problem is the way armies are built. Most wargames assume that for every G.I. Joe in your army, you will also have a Forest Gump. In WMH players can make their army with only the best. That makes many skues irrelevant and unsellable. They need a better army organization.


It's really sad because in many ways WMH is a better game system than Age of Sigmar, but I have vastly more people playing AOS and my investments have to go towards the things that are selling. Monpoc can buoy up PP for only so long. PP is my Deadpool pick for this time next year.

Going w/ what Smellingsalts is saying about the state of the game, It's very strange seeing this this way and it needs to change, hopefully this new CEO can make that happen.

When I worked at an FLGS through MKI and a few years of MKII ('03 to '09), WMH wold like hot-cakes even though 40K was still going strong w/ 5th edition. We had a solid playerbase with regular leagues of 20+ players and a lot of it was due to how easy and inexpensive the game was to get into at the time. A 40K army was easily $400+, but a tournament sized 35 point WMH army would be $100~$130. And then they were hooked, they'd buy a solo if all they had was $10 to spend, and it was something meaningful that added to or changed his army playstyle. If he had $20 to spend, he could buy a warjack or small unit. If he had $50 a full unit plus UA. At every pricepoint you had an option to buy something that added to or modified how you played your existing stuff. Even with getting face-stomped in early games, new players flocked to it because was an easy intro with an easy way to expand. People would wind up spending just as much as 40K or more without even realizing it

Fast forward to now, and you have what Smellingsalts is talking about, and it's on-point. The game needs either a radical reversal or a radical departure from what it's become, whether that is goign against the hardcore players and going full-on limited format or splitting the game into a smaller skirmish size like it started and a separate mass-battles game like it has morphed into

Smellingsalts wrote:
Now I can only sell miniatures as their move to electronic media has disposed for the need for books and cards. Since I don't sell I-phones or Apps, they effectively cut my revenue stream. Another effect of moving their cards online is that the community views and decides the value of a model before it is released. I have to make commitments to my distributors to buy those miniatures long before they are rated by the community. Often, when a model is finally released, the community has decided it has no value, and I end up with several skues I cannot sell.

I'm trying to see how this is different for WMH vs every other mini game out there as everyone previews the stats before release. Infinity is probably the closest with the community deciding something is crap before the mini is released (as unless it's a new faction stats can be known for a year before the figure comes out) and it doesn't really affect sales for CB.