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epaemil wrote: So my meta is gonna consist of my brother playing dark angels. Nothing else. I am not too sure of what his army is but I do know that we only have about 1000 pts each and that he has some normal marines and some bikes. What would be a good build against it? Currently I have the SC box, 12 more warriors, 5 immortals, a cryptek and 3 tomb blades.
Personally, I would say a good build is whatever you're interested in. It doesn't sound like your brother is exactly building tournament lists, and you've got a good mix.
Between me and my brother, game systems tended to last longer when we were both interested and having fun and experimenting, and not starting a bitter war of escalating optimized builds to kill each other. But my family's weird, so... take that with a grain of salt.
Yes you're probably right. He doesn't take it too seriously and we're playing just for casual fun. Would certainly not mind beating him though
Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
Therion wrote: Yes, the tournaments here have the luxury of giving 3 hours per match, and players are given bonus soft scores for finishing the game in time. It’s a legitimate issue and a talking point, but not one that can’t be solved globally.
I agree, but that right there is just one way in which your meta is unique. That was my main point, you can't assume your meta across the globe. Also, and this doesn't necessarily pertain to your therion, but the idea that because someones meta is not a certain paradigm it shouldn't dictate whether their ideas or concerns are suddenly laughable or invalid. Size of the event, missions, round length etc. all have major impacts on the success of certain builds.
It's not unique in the slightest. Just because this is an English speaking forum doesn't mean that extremely skilled 40K players and active scenes don't exist in countries like Germany, Poland, Italy, Russia, Belgium etc. And yes, I stick to the word laughable. Statements like 'GEQ aren't really played at tournaments' without any sort of disclaimers are exactly that. Laughable. I'm not sure why you take offence in comments like that, considering it's not you who posted that comment, and you're usually trying to keep an objective view on things.
I just see no point in being blatantly rude and inflammatory. You could engage witrh the other player, whoim you know nothing about first THEN I can understand being frustrated. In a game with so many variables it 's unwise for a player to assume other local metas.
Another example of things you can't assume that impact a meta for example, terrain, terrain is probably the least consistent factor but one of the BIGGEST factor on how a meta is developed. I have played outside my local in events where the table may as well have been naked, I have also played in events where a tank or walker could not make it from one side of the board to the other. Maybe Northern Europe plays with nothing but GW terrain built from the box, but generally speaking most stores and events are using house made terrain.
I am not defending the content of his statement, all I am saying is you shouldn't make broad assumptions about other people. He is from Oz, maybe the inane cost of GW models effects their meta where folks don't want to remortgage their fething house to buy 200 guardsmen, IDK, but I do know there is no call for invalidating his scene. Simply acknowledge that his meta is different, and ask for feedback based on your own rather then demanding that every discussion be based on your standards of play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 15:43:56
^Please stop this incredibly boring and off topic back and forth.^
Requizen wrote: Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
The Monolith seems surplus to requirements. Just GI Zahndrekh.
Requizen wrote: Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
The Monolith seems surplus to requirements. Just GI Zahndrekh.
Look, I hadn't read all the complaints, I spoilered it, please take a breathe.
Requizen wrote: Deceiver + Monolith for turn 1 Dimensional Corridor is also a possibility - albeit an expensive one that can get shut down by certain units. Best to let Lychguard lie for now, or use a Night Scythe and hope for the best.
The Monolith seems surplus to requirements. Just GI Zahndrekh.
The monolith is good if you want 2+ other stuff brought in at a later point plus it's decent fire support and a good weapon soak.
Also now that it's more useful I might start including more cause it's iconic if I can afford with build.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 15:50:23
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm seeing people talking up the Mephrit unique strat but it seems fairly useless to me. If you use it on a unit of 10 Tesla Immortals for example it will, on average, get you 3 extra shots.
Using TfA on Immortals is a huge waste of that strat.
It definitely seems like it was made for Tesla, but because you can only use it on a single friendly unit you really want to get it on something with as many natural shots as possible.
10 T.Immortals is only going to net you 20 dice to use.
An A.Barge/NS will only get you 8 dice, so despite the increased S7, for these things it'd be even more of a waste.
Then there's the T.Vault, with its 4 Tesla Spheres pumping out 20 S7 shots. That's as many as the Immortals at the strength of the A.Barge, but I'm uncertain whether you can even use that strat with it.
I think the best thing to use Talent For Annihilation on would be a unit of 9x Tesla Tomb Blades.
Each one has two Tesla Carbines. That's 4 shots per bike. 36 dice to throw from one unit. How many of those are going to come up 6s? Each 6 gets two more hits, and with the strat active, will also add another dice to the pool, which could itself then generate more bonus hits if they come up 6s, too. Would it be enough to clear a chunk of a GEQ blob away? Maybe? With the AP-1 it would certainly help.
The only downside is they can't get MWBD or Lord's Will. Guess you could possibly get some help from a Stalker, though.
The best code specific strat is clearly the Nephrek DS one. This edition is all about whos killy thing kills whose first. I honestly wouldn't use any of the others with the exception of specifically building a Novohk army and using the fight twice ability.
I really want to make good use of a Mono but am struggling. Any list I make with it is instantly better when I take it out.
Building a list with some sort of "surprise! my army is in your face" trick seems doomed to fail. So I'm left with trying lists that drop a Mono away from my main force to give me extra tactical options during the game.
I think that might be true of all our teleporting tricks unfortunately. Trying to build an army wide strategy around it is a trap and they should instead be used for tactical flexibility.
I think the best thing to use Talent For Annihilation on would be a unit of 9x Tesla Tomb Blades.
Each one has two Tesla Carbines. That's 4 shots per bike. 36 dice to throw from one unit. How many of those are going to come up 6s?
6. Your one CP will get you 6 Tesla shots. The stratagem is useless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 15:58:30
20 buffed warriors with the -1AP trait coming out of a monolith is pretty scary. Especially since you'll have a second unit coming out the following turn.
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On that note, im trying to think of the best scenario/way to make use of Methodical Destruction.
It seems like it'd be helpful for tesla~ but at the same time somewhat more useful on focusing down 'omg bring it down!' targets..
Can anyone think of an army/unit with enough wounds and a low enough save that might involve tesla shenanigans like this?
Part of me says start this salvo with the triarch stalker and then if it causes the wound activate it for the extra chance to get those 4+ tesla bursts (from the occassional immortals/etc unit with mwbd) by rerolling the 1's for everything following. *chuckle*
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One of my friends does chaos and I've seen them do horrors splitting into other colored horrors that split again before. Are all the other colors in this situation still part of the original unit, or are they now a separate unit? If they're all part of the same unit this might be a very valid target for this ability since they're 5+ invuls anyway and that's lots of wounds to eat through and plenty of potential hits.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 16:11:12
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
Red Corsair wrote: The best code specific strat is clearly the Nephrek DS one. This edition is all about whos killy thing kills whose first. I honestly wouldn't use any of the others with the exception of specifically building a Novohk army and using the fight twice ability.
Agreed on Nephrek being the best.
Sautekh is not one you would use every game but can be very good against targets with lots of wounds- hordes or Lords Of War.
Nihilakh seems like something you can build a good trick around. 2++ wraith or Lychguard maybe.
Talent for Annihilation would be best used on a unit of six Mephrit Destroyers. If you take a full squad of six, you naturally have 18 S6 AP-3 D3 shots, AP-4 inside 12"
If you spend another CP for Extermination Protocols, the efficiency of that unit goes through the roof. With shots that powerful, any extra hit rolls beyond your natural 18 can make a lot of difference, and are very likely to hit and wound.
Arguably it's overkill against most targets but against something like a Land Raider you'd be hard pressed to find a better way to inflict damage
On that note, im trying to think of the best scenario/way to make use of Methodical Destruction.
It seems like it'd be helpful for tesla~ but at the same time somewhat more useful on focusing down 'omg bring it down!' targets..
Can anyone think of an army/unit with enough wounds and a low enough save that might involve tesla shenanigans like this?
Part of me says start this salvo with the triarch stalker and then if it causes the wound activate it for the extra chance to get those 4+ tesla bursts (from the occassional immortals/etc unit with mwbd) by rerolling the 1's for everything following. *chuckle*
Stalker can't trigger the strat sadly.
It's good on tesla vs something like 30 Orks. If Magnus or Morty come charging at you then your whole army will want to get in on the methodical destruction.
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dapperbandit wrote: Talent for Annihilation would be best used on a unit of six Mephrit Destroyers. If you take a full squad of six, you naturally have 18 S6 AP-3 D3 shots, AP-4 inside 12"
If you spend another CP for Extermination Protocols, the efficiency of that unit goes through the roof. With shots that powerful, any extra hit rolls beyond your natural 18 can make a lot of difference, and are very likely to hit and wound.
Arguably it's overkill against most targets but against something like a Land Raider you'd be hard pressed to find a better way to inflict damage
This may be the best use for it. But then you would be much better using Nephrekh to DS those destroyers.
It gives a 16% damage increase on whatever you use it on. Compare that to the Destroyer strat which gives an 80% increase for the same cost.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 16:17:23
Hmm you're right. Went and checked the actual wording and it says the starting wound has to be from Sau. Thought that looked a little too convenient in the P1 summary.
Granted this strats value only more efficient with more Sautekh units, but at the same time that probably means a very specific build. Compared to doing a salad where every type of unit tends to fit in a niche for efficiency.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 16:21:22
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I really want to make good use of a Mono but am struggling. Any list I make with it is instantly better when I take it out.
Building a list with some sort of "surprise! my army is in your face" trick seems doomed to fail. So I'm left with trying lists that drop a Mono away from my main force to give me extra tactical options during the game.
I think that might be true of all our teleporting tricks unfortunately. Trying to build an army wide strategy around it is a trap and they should instead be used for tactical flexibility.
I think the best thing to use Talent For Annihilation on would be a unit of 9x Tesla Tomb Blades. Each one has two Tesla Carbines. That's 4 shots per bike. 36 dice to throw from one unit. How many of those are going to come up 6s?
6. Your one CP will get you 6 Tesla shots. The stratagem is useless.
It's a 17% increase in throughput, that doesn't seem useless. It's also useful for destroyers, as it basically gives you an extra destroyers worth of shooting at the low end. If you add extermination protocols (more chances to roll sixes), things get silly fast
See my above comment about Nephrekh DS being far more useful on the Destroyers.
It's 17% on anything and as destroyers are our killiest unit they are the best target. One Destroyer with extermination prots worth of shooting is probably just about worth 1CP- not amazing though. On anything else it's a terrible use of a CP.
Also, you maths looks off, I don't have time to check. 27 shots? The unit gets 18 and you think they kill 17 marines?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:05:40
No debate about Nephrekh being the best Dynasty for Destroyers because of Translocation Crypt [TC].
But if for some reason you need to have your Destroyers be from a different Dynasty, Mephrit's not bad, especially with TfA.
Sautekh's not much use for them.
Not much point to Nihilakh Destroyers.
Novokh is probably the worst for them.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: See my above comment about Nephrekh DS being far more useful on the Destroyers.
It's 17% on anything and as destroyers are our killiest unit they are the best target. One Destroyer with extermination prots worth of shooting is probably just about worth 1CP- not amazing though. On anything else it's a terrible use of a CP.
Also, you maths looks off, I don't have time to check. 27 shots? The unit gets 18 and you think they kill 17 marines?
I was thinking 9 was the unit size for some reason, need more coffee I suppose. what didn't change 2 cp more than doubles the fire power of destroyers, so want to math up better uses of CP to prove your point?
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
Yeah the only reason I could see Sautekh Destroyers is if you were making a singular dynasty build to take advantage of MDest and so that you could fire after advancing.
The guaranteed 6" is the only real good thing about Neph for destroyers though to be honest cause they're already flier and can pretty much just go from A to B most times, albeit very thicc terrain could still be a nuisance at times I imagine.
But yeah TC deployment is very good at making me overlook that. o.~
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:24:38
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
I think sautekh destroyers are worth a mention as possibly being better than nephrek.
You can MSU them in units of 3 and have the possibility to move+advance and still shoot. Coupled with sautekh stratagem being one of the few that benefits MSU more than a single unit in that you buff all sautekh shooting at that target.
Surely being able to hide your unit in tactical reserves is good, but a table has terrain being behind Los blocking terrain and being able to move out from behind it to shoot is a thing, and the option to go 10+d6 and still shoot destroyers as sautekh has tactical relevance.
Taking the 6" advance with nephrek means your destroyers aren't shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:27:23
Blak - Yeah I see that 6" Nephrek advance for destroyers mostly being for 'yeah lets get away from that scary thing and just shoot it next turn' possibly by ducking through convenient cover that would inhibit its ability to give chase. Granted considering they're flier in the right situations you can still kite back and shoot.
Also ok to help make sure they can reach an objective while deep.
But yeah MSU is very useful for a destroyer block with several regular destroyer squads up front and a backline of HD teams all around a 6" aura bubble of a DL. Especially if there's a high value target for them to concentrate down.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:34:49
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
blaktoof wrote: I think sautekh destroyers are worth a mention as possibly being better than nephrek.
You can MSU them in units of 3 and have the possibility to move+advance and still shoot. Coupled with sautekh stratagem being one of the few that benefits MSU more than a single unit in that you buff all sautekh shooting at that target.
Surely being able to hide your unit in tactical reserves is good, but a table has terrain being behind Los blocking terrain and being able to move out from behind it to shoot is a thing, and the option to go 10+d6 and still shoot destroyers as sautekh has tactical relevance.
Taking the 6" advance with nephrek means your destroyers aren't shooting.
It's of limited use - 10" Fly is already amazing mobility (better than most in the game, especially given the platform and damage output), and doesn't protect you from Alpha Strikes. It does have some use, of course, and as Lothmar says it makes them ok if you're taking a single Dynasty, but honestly there is not much reason to nowadays.
Talent for annihilation is just not a super impactful stratagem. Using it for mass small arms is not great because the return is so little for the CP.
You're better off going the other way and using it as a gambling strat on a unit of Heavy Destroyers in the hope of getting an extra Lascannon shot, etc. On a Destroyer unit perhaps too.
Requizen wrote: it makes them ok if you're taking a single Dynasty, but honestly there is not much reason to nowadays.
Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say Necron Salad™ (because green, hurhur) is going to be a staple in most competitive builds we'll be seeing.
(Eg. Sautek/Mephrit Battalion lettuce, Nephrekh Outrider tomatoes, Nihilakh Spearhead dressing, etc.)
Am I right in thinking that we can use C'tan powers 1st and then use other "at the end of the movement phase" after we use the powers? E.g. C'tan powers and Veil of Darkness are both used at the end of the movement phase. Would it be okay to C'tan powers then Veil of Darkness?
Odrankt wrote: Am I right in thinking that we can use C'tan powers 1st and then use other "at the end of the movement phase" after we use the powers? E.g. C'tan powers and Veil of Darkness are both used at the end of the movement phase. Would it be okay to C'tan powers then Veil of Darkness?
Im guessing either or since they're both during the same portion~ Though if im wrong it'd be one or the other so verify since both would occur at the 'end' and therfor only one can be the last action?
ex: You can move units, blast power of the ctan and then pop him away.
Or comparitively you can move units, pop the ctan where it needs to go and then use the powers.
Though VoD is 1 dynasty infantry and Ctans dont have dynasties save for TV so that's the only one you could TP in via Nephrek Translocation Crypt... Cant really think of any way to move the normal Ctans in a way you're implying...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 18:38:04
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
-Warlord with nighmare shroud artefact, -1Ld to enemies 6''.
-C'Tan deceiver. -1LD to enemies in 6''.
-2X 10 flayed ones -1LD to ennemies if they make one wound now i think.
Hopefully you can make enough damage on 2 standard units or 4 GEQ units and prop -3LD tests left and right. Its not that expensive. 704pts if you keep it minimal. Customize you way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 18:39:14
~4100
~1660
