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Blue glowy dudes are Thokt. They're notable for being the "everyone kept their brains" dynasty. Their warriors can hold a conversation.

whelp, guess the leak is the final codex, we can start our tier list now.

I'd like to start by giving the obelisk an F, there is literally no reason to take it.

Destroyers are a hard A, their expensive but punch well above their points.

Heavy destroyers are B, Solid anti vehicle unit, but small unit size and a narrow target profile make them less awesome than destroyers.

Triarch Praetorians are a C, hurt by being expensive and not having a dynasty code. They would be lower but have some things going for them, 10" movement, they can fly, good ranged weapons and CC, immune to morale, and a solid max unit size.

Wraiths are a B, expensive but durable, good in CC, great at getting around screens, can't be tarpitted.

Scarabs are an A, we need screens and scrabs just happen to be great screens. They are fast, can blow up on enemies with a stratagem, and with the right dynasty code they could even have a bit of punch. Every list should have scarabs.

Lychguard are a C+, in the same boat as praetorians, except trade No dynasty for slow speed. Slow speed though we can work around, with dimensional corridor and a veil of darkness.

Flayed ones are a D, I wish they were just CC warriors, but they have some extra abilities that drive their cost up without really adding much to their bottom line. Rerolling wounds is nice, but it's a 4 str 1 damage swing with no AP. Deep strike is nice but a 9" charge is still hard to manage.

Yeah, the obelisk is a hard F. That's just silly. No reason to take it outside of pure "fun" games, and that's such an expensive models why would you not just make it a tesseract vault?

Sad GW is sad.

I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

The fact that the printing-error regarding Deathmarks/Lychguard being Troops in the summary and Elites on their datacards made it into the final print is ...extremely embarrassing.

changemod wrote:
I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

They are cheap, our cheapest screening unit, very fast, and can fly now. They can keep up with nearly every other unit worth screening.
With fly, they can even threat flyers in cc, and now can jump over every terrain/enemys screening units if needed. I would still give them an A.

Edit:
Tactic suggestion: run through screening units and charge tanks behind them. Because why not.

changemod wrote:
I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

Not everything has to do rockstar damage, and since they are quite literally the only screening unit we have they will be in every competitive list. Beyond the fact they are more or less required, they have a 10" movement (which is exceptional for screening units), 3 wounds per base (so a little more than 4 points per wound), 4 attacks per base, and always wound on fives. The mortal wounds thing is a bonus, you shouldn't be spamming it, and it makes our screens unique, and dangerous. The thing is you get to choose who they blow up on, so it's better than smite and hell fire shells, and aside from an occasional gotcha will mostly serve to discourage ICs from getting near your screens. That cold star commander suit now has to worry about your screens since they can chunk him.

To sum it up, they are required, they are good at their job, and they have some uniquely necron aspects to them. They aren't glamourous like destroyers, but the job they do is necessary, and they really should be in every list.

 Grimgold wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'd definitely be hesitant to call Scarabs an A: Their damage output is terrible and the stratagem has too poor a return to even consider unless you're bleeding command points from every orifice and can afford to blow them on the equivalent of a single smite cast.

If they had a scout move/infiltrate they would be an A regardless due to good screen value as a 3 model unit for area denial, but since they don't all they're really good for is moving in the way of things and clogging shooty units with a charge.

Not everything has to do rockstar damage, and since they are quite literally the only screening unit we have they will be in every competitive list. Beyond the fact they are more or less required, they have a 10" movement (which is exceptional for screening units), 3 wounds per base (so a little more than 4 points per wound), 4 attacks per base, and always wound on fives. The mortal wounds thing is a bonus, you shouldn't be spamming it, and it makes our screens unique, and dangerous. The thing is you get to choose who they blow up on, so it's better than smite and hell fire shells, and aside from an occasional gotcha will mostly serve to discourage ICs from getting near your screens. That cold star commander suit now has to worry about your screens since they can chunk him.

To sum it up, they are required, they are good at their job, and they have some uniquely necron aspects to them. They aren't glamourous like destroyers, but the job they do is necessary, and they really should be in every list.

As a screening unit, they also have a wider base, which is helpful.

So Tomb Blades. A? The native -1 to hit certainly helps against plasma.

Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
So Tomb Blades. A? The native -1 to hit certainly helps against plasma.

A-? Lack of infrantry keyword.

Kuguar6 wrote:
Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.

You're not seriously suggesting scarabs are bad because the enemy might shoot lascannons, are you?

I was going to say Obelisk is ok against tau, then i realised they'll just ram a commander into with coldstar and fusion blasters

Biggest problem with flayed ones is their weapon. Why the hell do their claws have no AP? Being necrons I would expect them to be a base ap-2. If their weapons could get through ANY armor their usefulness would sky rocket.

Well, with the beta codex confirmed at this point, it looks like we have to take the good and the bad.

Overall Army Impressions

The Good:
Dynasty codes- These are among the best in the game, with no real duds. I don't like the Nihilakh one that much, but the codes are good.

Warlord Traits- Some clear winners and losers here. The losers aren't bad, but it's really hard to compete with ones like Hyperlogic Strategy, which is amazing. I feel like we will see This warlord trait the most. The ability to gain command points is going to be huge...

Stratagems- These are also among the best in the game. Most of them are cheap at 1 CP, and with Hyperlogic strategy, it is very likely we will get 10-12 CP a game depending on the number of detachments. I think good Stratagem management will be key to successfully piloting the codex. I don't really see that many duds here, most of them are either very good, or good.

Destroyers- Weapon improvement, stratagems and cost decrease made these guys one of the best units we have.

Not so good:
RP stayed the same. This could make our break our army. This really should have been the number one issue addressed, and the fact that they failed to is very disappointing.
Some high points costs one one use items like Res Orbs. This should have been changed when RP was changed.
We still have quite a few useless units. Lychguard, Triach Praetorians, Stalkers, Flayed ones continue to suffer. Lychguard really needed a steeper point drop. Triarch units don't benefit from Dynasty Codes which hurt them quite a bit. If their points had been dropped enough to make up for it, it would have been ok.

Overall, we will need to see how the units that improved and the stratagems are enough to make up for the fact that RP stayed the same.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Kuguar6 wrote:
Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.

You're not seriously suggesting scarabs are bad because the enemy might shoot lascannons, are you?

more like destroyer profile: 6S -1AP d3D

Kuguar6 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Kuguar6 wrote:
Scarab have main problem in multi wound profile. With silver tide and qs spam list we dont have a good target for multi d wepons. For such list we need GEQ like screen but we havent. Sometimes warriors can be better screen unit. We take them in every list but becouse we dont have alternative.

You're not seriously suggesting scarabs are bad because the enemy might shoot lascannons, are you?

more like destroyer profile: 6S -1AP d3D

I only take scarabs to deny smite and to surprise enemy shooting that gets too close to my army. There small size means they're often overlooked.
With the new stratagem letting you roll RP for them they could make a surprise come back if reduced to 1 model and your opponent leaves them

What does everyone think the order of best to worst is for Lychguard and Praetorians?

Lych Warscythes
Lych Hyperphase Sword & Shield
Praet Rod of Covenant
Praet Void Blade & Particle Caster

I hadn’t started to look at them using the index yet and then the Codex was coming so thought it was worth waiting.
What are people thinking based on the leaks?

I know there seems to be talk of them not being very good overall, but if you were ordering them by use what would you go with?

Cheers!

 Grimgold wrote:
whelp, guess the leak is the final codex, we can start our tier list now.

I'd like to start by giving the obelisk an F, there is literally no reason to take it.

Destroyers are a hard A, their expensive but punch well above their points.

Heavy destroyers are B, Solid anti vehicle unit, but small unit size and a narrow target profile make them less awesome than destroyers.

Triarch Praetorians are a C, hurt by being expensive and not having a dynasty code. They would be lower but have some things going for them, 10" movement, they can fly, good ranged weapons and CC, immune to morale, and a solid max unit size.

Wraiths are a B, expensive but durable, good in CC, great at getting around screens, can't be tarpitted.

Scarabs are an A, we need screens and scrabs just happen to be great screens. They are fast, can blow up on enemies with a stratagem, and with the right dynasty code they could even have a bit of punch. Every list should have scarabs.

Lychguard are a C+, in the same boat as praetorians, except trade No dynasty for slow speed. Slow speed though we can work around, with dimensional corridor and a veil of darkness.

Flayed ones are a D, I wish they were just CC warriors, but they have some extra abilities that drive their cost up without really adding much to their bottom line. Rerolling wounds is nice, but it's a 4 str 1 damage swing with no AP. Deep strike is nice but a 9" charge is still hard to manage.

For what it's worth, I think the above are spot on. Is it worthwhile applying a few permutations to some of the other entries; which change dramatically depending on Dynasty?

This arose because I was about to add to this list and started alphabetically: Annihilation Barges probably range from B- to C depending on (a) if Gauss Cannon with Sautekh / Tesla with Mephrit and played aggressively versus (b) anything else where their lack of AP and non-optimal Strength 7 leave them over-costed for the meta.

There are other examples as well, I reckon.

Hmm,
I want to love Deathmarks, but it looks like they're going to need help to be worth taking.

Their guns do MW on a wound roll of 6.
Lords aura ability allows wound rolls of 1 to be rerolled.
How much more effective would that make them?
Would it be worth Veiling in a Lord (+Gauss Immortals?) with a unit or two of Hunters-from-Hyperspace-ing (HfH) Deathmarks?
If they were all from Mephrit, that might be a pretty nasty little surprise, no?
Granted, this is just a ridiculous exercise in seeing how a combo might work, but if I've done this correctly, with just the two units of Deathmarks rerolling 1s to wound it looks like they can pull off a lot of damage against a character with T5 2+ 3++ all by themselves.

(this is without the Lord or Immortals contributing, too).

wow thats actually not too shabby.

PS: whats that tool that you used?

You can't have the veil and the solar staff on the same model. The limit is 1 relic per charecter.

Deathmasks I find are simply great counter units that have additional value by being a threat. I had a tau ghostkeel drop in with stealth drones, the deathmasks dropped in and popped one of the drones so right from that point the ghostkeel was only at -2 to hit. It's more the threat of what they could do as much as what they can do. Also if your opponent tries to drop in and get closest to a chr they can drop in and act like a screen. Or if they drop in to charge they again can be a "drop in screen". Their value is more than their ability to damage.

So I am probably right in assuming that everyone believes lychguard and deathmarks will go back to being elites as soon as GW release an FAQ?

But lets just say that isnt a typo and they are now troops, would that make them much better than they are currently? or would tesla immortals still always be the go to troop choice?

They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

Yeah lychguard and deathmarks as troops seems an odd choice, if any of the elites got moved over I think it would be flayed ones.

 Grimgold wrote:
Yeah lychguard and deathmarks as troops seems an odd choice, if any of the elites got moved over I think it would be flayed ones.

If flayed ones became troops (and plastic) that would be nice for CC armies

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

zacharia wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

The BRB is clear that a unit's Battlefield Role is the icon appearing on its datasheet. There's no indication that the categories in the point listings have any rules meaning.

Azuza001 wrote:
You can't have the veil and the solar staff on the same model. The limit is 1 relic per charecter.

Ah, yes, true that.
Okay, edited to omit any mention of Solar Staff.

So 10 Deathmarks that reroll 1s to wound are typically seeing 4.3 wounds against a character after saves (T5, 2+, 3++).
If you could somehow get them +1 to hit (MWBD / Methodical Destruction) that would bump them up to 5.4 wounds against that same character per 10 Deathmarks.
Decent?

_Ness wrote:
whats that tool that you used?

http://www.dice-hammer.com

zacharia wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

Page 174 of the main rulebook says that the icon on the datasheet determines the unit's battlefield role. Where can I find a rule that says that I use the points value tables to determine a model's battlefield role?

 Ghaz wrote:

zacharia wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
They are not Troops; their unit entries have the correct FOC markings, they're only listed under Troops in the points section in the back. Should people want to use that to put them in Troop slots, you can ask them why their Codex has no HQs, as the back of the book lists "Characters," and not HQs.

While I agree the troop listing is the mistake, they aren't even listed anywhere as elites, they just have the elite icon in 1 place, so either interpretation is really valid - they have 1 listing as troops and 1 image as elites, 1 right entry and 1 wrong either way round.

Page 174 of the main rulebook says that the icon on the datasheet determines the unit's battlefield role. Where can I find a rule that says that I use the points value tables to determine a model's battlefield role?

As I said I agree that it is the listing that is incorrect, but the fact the brb says the icon is what is important, the fact remains that in the necron codex the mistake could BE the icon.

There is one instance of the icon and 1 instance of the listing as troops. No matter what the brb says it would be one error (incorrect icon) for them to be troops the same as it would be 1 error (incorrect listing) for them to be elite. Either way round there are only 2 entires, 1 correct 1 incorrect, who is to say which is correct?