Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ah. It's the English interpretation of the verb in past tense that differ from my native language.

I figured my units were set up before the first turn, as in were already set up.

I see what you mean now, it seems like the correct interpretation of the rule.

What the hell, guys.
I *just* said cut down on the YMDC debate,
Yet here we are.

This thread is for tactics discussion.
Granted, thanks to the FAQ coming along and making a bunch of things unclear we don't know 100% how certain things are played anymore, so until we have a clearer understanding (say, sorted out in a separate YMDC thread and cited here once a consensus is reached), let's just leave these uncertain rulings on the back burner of discussion.

In the meantime, if something from the FAQ significantly helps us AND is 100% unambiguous then have at it!

punisher357 wrote:

Raxxamous wrote:

punisher357 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Great, we need an faq for the faq.

The way I read it is this.

"matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."

Does the unit arrive during the first turn? Well, yes, it started the battle on the field during the first turn, all the units on the field during the first turn have "arrived" on this turn. I suppose that does mean that you can't use the veil to move something up during the first turn because the veil says

"When they do, the bearer, and up to one friendly <DYNASTY> INFANTRY unit within 3" of the bearer, are removed from the battlefield. Then, set up the bearer (and the second unit you chose, if any) anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models (the second unit must be set up wholly within 6" of the bearer)."

This is pretty much exactly called out by the rule. Your taking them from the battlefield and placing them whereever you want, but since they arrived this turn (turn 1) it can only be in your deployment zone. Lame but what ever.

VOD happens after the movement phase....so after your unit was already deployed within your deployment zone you then use the VOD and move it up. The new Deepstrike rule doesn't affect this.

VOD happens at the end of the movement phase, which is still the movement phase, not after. After the movement phase would be the psychic phase, you understand?

This is my last comment on this...deployment happens before movement.... thus deployment is already done, your unit was wholly within your zone, then movement occurs, then vod occurs....new deep strike rules don't affect this because your unit was deployed wholly within your zone, it wasn't held off the board and then brought in. It was on the board in your deployment zone....you understand?

I'm not arguing about that. Just correcting you in that Veil absolutely happens during movement phase and I'm not sure how you would even think otherwise because it's basic reading.

Necrons after the not so big FAQ.

No Deep Strike T1.
This is huge for us for two reasons.
Firstly our Alpha was not that stellar anyway, and things like Destroyers can DS in our deployment zone and still shoot in many scenarios - if required.

More importantly we had no method of DS protection vs shooting. We simply have no units that can deploy outside of our deployment zone other than via the Deceiver - and that doesn't work if our opponent locks up the midfield.

Extra CP's.
I think a net gain for us. Everyone gets the benefit but I feel that we have a wider, more diverse and more usable set of stratagems than most other armies.

Rule of 3.
Another gain for us. I haven't seen any Necron list that spams that much, but there were other armies that did; and some of those were problematic to us.

Soup.
Another net gain, although in reality it will not do what it is intended to do to any great extent. We can't soup and anything which may restrict other armies can only be good for us.

Anrakyr/Szeras.
Makes them more usable.

C'tan Powers within 1".
We always played it this way but nice to have clarificatio.

So all in all the FAQ's have improved our options and should make us a little more competitive.

All we need now are the Monolith sorting and our Tomb World deployment rules sorted and we are good to go!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

torblind wrote:
Aren't scouts still going to be able to do their thing?

They will, but they're tougher to fit in now (No more Celestine + 3 Scouts) and they'll be less important as most T1 strikes are hit hard. I know my Marines will still use Scouts fine at least.

If they want to do that, they will need to track down 15 metal Sisters models and upgrade the scouts to Dominions, who get the same scout move... only they can all be equiped with melta guns or storm bolters. Nastier, but slightly more expensive.

Biasn wrote:So does the methodical destruction strat function with the abyssal staffs mortal wounds?

It does now... I've been building my list around that. It's a nice little trick.

stormcraft wrote:Im pretty sure we can still use the VOD in Turn One, as the new Beta Rules explicitely targets "units arriving on the Battlefield" and not teleporting things around that are already on the Battlefield.

If this ruling stand, Necrons are one of the few Army who can still set up a pretty powerfull shooting Alpha Strike (D3 Units with Deciver+VOD).

Sadly, as other have stated, the Monolith is now really crap as you cant even use him for Turn 1 Drop+teleport.
380 Points is a joke for this unit.

Yeah, no VOD turn 1 and it also stops Ghostwalk Mantle...

I was reading my codex last night, and the Deceiver plus D3 units. You are certain to get at least 1, and you can be reasonably assured of moving the Deceiver and 2 units. There is no restriction that the units moved must be together. I don't have a Vault, but I do have a converted TC'tan that I'll be using with my Deceiver, and it will be harder to screen against the small footprints of these two models. I have a Nightbringer and I may see about converting up another T'Ctan if I feel that it this is a good strategy. I doubt that I'll need the second TC'tan though.

Those of you thinking about other shooting units, which ones have your attention? Warriors have too big of a footprint, though the shooting is top notch. Immortals seem the better option. Wraiths with their Particle Castors... prepping for a turn 2 charge?

 Ordana wrote:

torblind wrote:
Ok you lost me.

Aren't we discussing VOD turn 1? And this surely involves units set up before the first turn? What's the significant difference in this?

Units are allowed to set up outside your deployment zone if they deploy before the first turn (Forward Operatives, Strike fro the Shadows)
Veil of Darkness is during the turn. The Beta rules say you can't arrive outside your deployment zone in turn 1. The Rulebook faq also says to treat units that teleport (Gate of Infinity, Teleport homer) as arriving as reinforcements.

Therefor using VoD during your first turn means you have to follow the beta rules and can't go outside your deployment zone.
The fact that they once deployment normally is irrelevant.

I don't think it's as clean cut as you're trying to make it be. The fact that they already arrived on the battlefield already is definitely relevant and the FAQ question was regarding a heavy weapon/movement question. Pointing out intention of the rule again, "The ability to arrive on the battlefield mid-game has always been powerful, enabling units that can do so to arrive where they will be most effective while granting them immunity from attacks until they are on the battlefield."

Again, we are already on the battlefield and do not have immunity. Veil wasn't something GW was targeting with this rule. Anyway, this is certainly a RAW vs. RAI argument

Its sad that we're going to need a FAQ for a FAQ to resolve this.

RE: Reinforcement

Tactical reaserve Beta rules, 2nd paragraph:
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO A GENESTEALER CULTS UNIT THAT IS BEING SET UP ACCORDING TO THE CULT AMBUSH ABILITY, OR TO UNITS THAT ARE SET UP AFTER THE FIRST BATTLE ROUND HAS BEGUN, BUT BEFORE THE FIRST TURN BEGINS.

This is plain language for Yeah the C'Tan deceiver thing still works.

Then Stratagem Dimensional corridor
USE THIS STRATAGEM AT THE START OF YOUR MOVEMENT PHASE. SELECT A DYNASTY INFANTRY UNIT FROM YOUR ARMY THAT IS MORE THAN 1'' AWAY FROM ENEMY MODELS AND REMOVE IT FROM THE BATTLEFIELD. THEN SET THE UNIT UP AGAIN SO THAT IT IS WHOLLY WITHIN 3'' OF A DYNASTY MONOLITH FROM YOUR ARMY AND MORE THAN 1'' AWAY FROM ENEMY MODELS. THAT UNIT COUNT AS HAVING DISEMBARKED FROM THE MONOLITH THIS TURN AND CAN MOVE NORMALLY.

Plain language for treat the monolith as a transport. And the reinforcement rule doesn't prevent to unload transport outside your deployment zone on turn 1.

So you can C'Tan displace your Monolith 12'' from the enemy, Dimension corridor Flayed ones that where in your back field 3'' from the monolith/9'' from the enemy, move forward 5'' and charge 4''. No MWBD won't work though. But you can still have them as Novokh, stratagem them +1Str and if you could also bring one or 2 HQ, have Anakyr give them +1A and another HQ with a nighmare shroud and the Novokh warlord trait. That makes 20 flayed ones with 4 attacks, reroll to hit reroll to wound, add an extra attack on hit rolls of 6s, +1Str and cumulative -3 to enemy moral. (1500 pts though). Just don't target armor 2+.
Edit: Forgot to add use Blood rites stratagem to have them pile in and fight twice. Think you can even wipe out 60 pink horrors that way.

Happy now?

And units already on the battlefield are considered being arrived BEFORE the first turn, as the first turn begins AFTER deployment.

Da W wrote:

Happy now?

Happy

Da W wrote:

So you can C'Tan displace your Monolith 12'' from the enemy, Dimension corridor Flayed ones that where in your back field 3'' from the monolith/9'' from the enemy, move forward 5'' and charge 4''. No MWBD won't work though. But you can still have them as Novokh, stratagem them +1Str and if you could also bring one or 2 HQ, have Anakyr give them +1A and another HQ with a nighmare shroud and the Novokh warlord trait. That makes 20 flayed ones with 4 attacks, reroll to hit reroll to wound, add an extra attack on hit rolls of 6s, +1Str and cumulative -3 to enemy moral. (1500 pts though). Just don't target armor 2+.

That's a pretty solid Alpha Strike, and 100% agree works with the current wording. Would be forced to bring a Monolith, though, which is.... not the best still but hey it's something.

Requizen wrote:

Da W wrote:

So you can C'Tan displace your Monolith 12'' from the enemy, Dimension corridor Flayed ones that where in your back field 3'' from the monolith/9'' from the enemy, move forward 5'' and charge 4''. No MWBD won't work though. But you can still have them as Novokh, stratagem them +1Str and if you could also bring one or 2 HQ, have Anakyr give them +1A and another HQ with a nighmare shroud and the Novokh warlord trait. That makes 20 flayed ones with 4 attacks, reroll to hit reroll to wound, add an extra attack on hit rolls of 6s, +1Str and cumulative -3 to enemy moral. (1500 pts though). Just don't target armor 2+.

That's a pretty solid Alpha Strike, and 100% agree works with the current wording. Would be forced to bring a Monolith, though, which is.... not the best still but hey it's something.

Wellits priced for exactly this ability one might argue

So with the FAQ to Anrakyr and Szeras, they can be assigned a warlord trait? But still no relics, correct?

 iGuy91 wrote:
So with the FAQ to Anrakyr and Szeras, they can be assigned a warlord trait? But still no relics, correct?

They have set Warlord Traits, they just didn't work before the FAQ because the ones they have set referenced <Dynasty>, which they don't have.

Has anyone emailed gw to ask these questions?

Requizen wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
So with the FAQ to Anrakyr and Szeras, they can be assigned a warlord trait? But still no relics, correct?

They have set Warlord Traits, they just didn't work before the FAQ because the ones they have set referenced <Dynasty>, which they don't have.

As to the second part, named characters cannot take relics.

Requizen wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
So with the FAQ to Anrakyr and Szeras, they can be assigned a warlord trait? But still no relics, correct?

They have set Warlord Traits, they just didn't work before the FAQ because the ones they have set referenced <Dynasty>, which they don't have.

So they fixed that part but how about the part that prevented them from being moved by Night Scythes/Ghost Arks/Monoliths/the Veil?

These issues that crop up.....along with how our reanimation can be bypassed is exactly why I don't believe they playtested necrons......I don't care what those d-bags at frontline gaming say

punisher357 wrote:
These issues that crop up.....along with how our reanimation can be bypassed is exactly why I don't believe they playtested necrons......I don't care what those d-bags at frontline gaming say

To be fair, our entire army revolves around a number of punish tactics. Put your guys in a favorable scenario, force the opponent to either respond with disproportionate force, or fail in their attempt, and then recoup the losses if they did. That's how the army works now. Death Guard's whole shtick of "We die really slowly" is theirs alone, or otherwise the armies don't have a niche. We made due with this version of RP in 5th and 6th ed, and we can continue to do so, but it makes us have to play smarter. I don't mind the challenge, as I was at my best in 6th.

Frontline Gaming is many things, but they've done a great job helping to bring more players into the fold and making everything more accessible to newer players. Their word isn't law, but I tend to trust them on these things.

punisher357 wrote:
how our reanimation can be bypassed

By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection". That's part of the core mechanic of RP, is that often if forces an opponent to commit much more firepower to a squad than it normally would need to in order to reduce its effectiveness. This also has the secondary effect of them not being able to effectively target multiple units since they are committing so much of their firepower to a single unit.

 iGuy91 wrote:

punisher357 wrote:
These issues that crop up.....along with how our reanimation can be bypassed is exactly why I don't believe they playtested necrons......I don't care what those d-bags at frontline gaming say

To be fair, our entire army revolves around a number of punish tactics. Put your guys in a favorable scenario, force the opponent to either respond with disproportionate force, or fail in their attempt, and then recoup the losses if they did. That's how the army works now. Death Guard's whole shtick of "We die really slowly" is theirs alone, or otherwise the armies don't have a niche. We made due with this version of RP in 5th and 6th ed, and we can continue to do so, but it makes us have to play smarter. I don't mind the challenge, as I was at my best in 6th.

Frontline Gaming is many things, but they've done a great job helping to bring more players into the fold and making everything more accessible to newer players. Their word isn't law, but I tend to trust them on these things.

I don't agree with RP being bypassable. I think it doesn't make sense fluff-wise. But it doesn't mean they didn't play test them. In 7th, RP was really, really strong. In this edition, it is really, really strong. However! In a different way. You throw 3 units at your opponent's face real quick while the rest of your army moves up slowly, and they won't be able to deal with all of it reliably. They have to focus things down, or we recover. So they're boned either way. We just have to accept (not always peacefully, in my case) that warrior blobs and near-immortal Lychstars aren't a thing anymore.

I frequently have opponents go 'what the hell' and throw all remaining shots at a withered down unit just to be sure. Overkill that spares the rest of my army.

While I on the other hand could split 10 immortals firing half on two full IG squads, withering both down to little combat value, even letting moral take it's tole. And then moving on, not worrying about a few measly lasgun shots, and the opponent not wasting orders on a reduced unit.

torblind wrote:
I frequently have opponents go 'what the hell' and throw all remaining shots at a withered down unit just to be sure. Overkill that spares the rest of my army.

While I on the other hand could split 10 immortals firing half on two full IG squads, withering both down to little combat value, even letting moral take it's tole. And then moving on, not worrying about a few measly lasgun shots, and the opponent not wasting orders on a reduced unit.

My last game, first with the new codex, my opponents fired most of their stuff at a Warrior blob, killing most in one turn and deciding to spread their firepower to other things. They figured morale would take effect. I then popped 2 CPs, got one back with Imotekh, and used a Rez Orb and the Cryptek nearby to get about 10 dudes back. They still didn't get around to fully killing that unit that game. My buddy HATES it.

I had a game this past weekend where my Destroyer unit got down to 1 model remaining three turns in a row, followed by Cryptek-empowered Reanimate after. So... it's fairly good.

Actually vehicules are way strongers than RP infantry now.

Here's my rating of ''How many BS3+ S5 ap-2 1dmg attacks 300pts worth of unit can sustain?''

Scarab: 156
Ghost Ark: 141
Wraith: 139
Tomb blades: 119
Stalker: 118
DDA: 117
Monolith: 106
...
closest infantry: Lychguard 90
Warriors: 67
Destroyers: 60
Immortals: 59
Flayed ones: 47
Cut them in half for multi-wound dealing weapons, except for warriors who now get in the 6th best spot. Immo/FO get better too, still lower than arks, scarabs, stalker, wraith though.

Getting peak RP is expensive. Cryptek everywhere, res orb or ghost ark, stratagem... You can heal as much wound to a vehicule than you can RP infantry if you build your army around it.

 Gojiratoho wrote:

punisher357 wrote:
how our reanimation can be bypassed

By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection". That's part of the core mechanic of RP, is that often if forces an opponent to commit much more firepower to a squad than it normally would need to in order to reduce its effectiveness. This also has the secondary effect of them not being able to effectively target multiple units since they are committing so much of their firepower to a single unit.

Death Guard FNP isn't bypassed as every wound from the opponent has to chew through that extra save. RP can be bypassed because we would never get to roll for our RP if the unit is wiped.

I agree with what you're saying, but it's not entirely the same in these examples.

It's hard to see the value of forcing an opponent to shoot some extra shots into a unit to wipe them entirely (voiding our RP cost) or perhaps they have perfect counter units where that is the ideal target to attack, wiping them anyway.

I enjoy the mechanic, but it's something that is mostly controlled by your opponent, with the exception of you putting a few models out of LOS and hoping the unit firing doesn't have enough to finish the job. That said, to get the most out of it, try and have some models out of LOS!

I'm really surprised that we didn't get a strategem that allows you to make reanimation protocol rolls for a unit that was destroyed during the last battle round. Maybe limited to Warriors and Immortals, and maybe only in your deployment zone... but still.

Hey guys, in sight of the new FAQ I'm leaning towards dropping my initial plan that relied a lot on the joined strike of Destroyers and Immortals T1.

My original list is as follows.



The plan was to deploy just the scarabs, cryptek, warriors and Tesla Immortals T1 in a way the opponent couldn't wipe them out. My first opportunity I'd veil the warriors and the Tek, drop the Lord, Gauss Immortals and Destroyers for the alpha strike. This strategy still works, but I am forced to wait until T2 now.

I'm considering switching to the following list.



The idea is to start it up with mortal wounds and follow up on CC, offering nothing but my scarabs (and lone destroyer) as targets.

I know my main opponent will be runninf Pask + Tank commander + 3 russes + 30 guardsmen.

Any advice, tips and critics are welcome. I only have this week before my tournament!

Necronplayer wrote:

 Gojiratoho wrote:

punisher357 wrote:
how our reanimation can be bypassed

By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection". That's part of the core mechanic of RP, is that often if forces an opponent to commit much more firepower to a squad than it normally would need to in order to reduce its effectiveness. This also has the secondary effect of them not being able to effectively target multiple units since they are committing so much of their firepower to a single unit.

Death Guard FNP isn't bypassed as every wound from the opponent has to chew through that extra save. RP can be bypassed because we would never get to roll for our RP if the unit is wiped.

I agree with what you're saying, but it's not entirely the same in these examples.

It's hard to see the value of forcing an opponent to shoot some extra shots into a unit to wipe them entirely (voiding our RP cost) or perhaps they have perfect counter units where that is the ideal target to attack, wiping them anyway.

I enjoy the mechanic, but it's something that is mostly controlled by your opponent, with the exception of you putting a few models out of LOS and hoping the unit firing doesn't have enough to finish the job. That said, to get the most out of it, try and have some models out of LOS!

I definitely see your point on FNP with Death Guard, but they seriously pay for that ability, while we basically get RP for free when you compare basic troop costs (Tac Marine, Plague Marine, Necron Warrior) and Boltgun/Gauss.

The biggest differences are:
PM have +1 T compared to TM/NW
PM/TM have +1 SV compared to NW
PM/TM have access to a wider range of weaponry than NW do
PM/TM have access to Sgts/Champs
NW have -1 AP compared to PM/TM
NW have +3 LD compared to PM/TM

NW are the cheapest of the three, even with RP
NW 12ppm
TM 13ppm
PM 19ppm

Though now this little thought experiment is making me want to do a points analysis on other Necron squads with RP to see just how much it factors into their ppm

I haven't played my Necrons since 3rd (boy do I miss Spider's letting me roll WBB after a squad was wiped so long as there was another of the same type still on the board ), but I think this version of RP is miles and away better (and fluffier) than WBB was.

arhurt wrote:
Hey guys, in sight of the new FAQ I'm leaning towards dropping my initial plan that relied a lot on the joined strike of Destroyers and Immortals T1.

My original list is as follows.

Spoiler:

Nephrek Battalion
Lord (Warscythe)
Cryptek (VoD, Immortal Pride)
10x Gauss Immortals
5x Tesla Immortals
19 Warriors
3x Scarabs
6x Destoyers

The plan was to deploy just the scarabs, cryptek, warriors and Tesla Immortals T1 in a way the opponent couldn't wipe them out. My first opportunity I'd veil the warriors and the Tek, drop the Lord, Gauss Immortals and Destroyers for the alpha strike. This strategy still works, but I am forced to wait until T2 now.

I'm considering switching to the following list.

Spoiler:

Novokh Outrider
Destoyer Lord (Blood Scythe, Crimson Haze)
C'tan shard of the Nightbringer
Transcedant C'tan
Transcedant C'tan
6x Scarabs
6x Scarabs

The idea is to start it up with mortal wounds and follow up on CC, offering nothing but my scarabs (and lone destroyer) as targets.

I know my main opponent will be runninf Pask + Tank commander + 3 russes + 30 guardsmen.

Any advice, tips and critics are welcome. I only have this week before my tournament!

Might be too slow to deal with his gunline perhaps, change one with the deceiver?

 Gojiratoho wrote:

punisher357 wrote:
how our reanimation can be bypassed

By wiping out a unit. By that logic, me wiping out my opponent's unit in one turn is me "bypassing their unit selection".

You're oversimplifying the issue to try and make your opinion seem logical. Your opponent doesn't pay a premium for "unit selection".
The entire issue with reanimation protocols is that your opponent can effectively determine whether you get to roll for them or not. I'm perfectly aware that this could potentially cause them to Overkill and not have Firepower directed at other parts of the army. However, in theory, you're paying more points for a unit that is survivable... The problem is the survivability that you pay for can be completely negated. I think there are better or mechanical options for reanimation protocols. Some of the suggestions made in this thread we're actually really good.

I'm aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the army, I'm aware of how this all works... However, by statements made by so-called play testers of the necron army I personally don't believe they playtested the Army very much. Until the most recent faq we were at a severe disadvantage. That's just my opinion whether you agree or not

arhurt wrote:
Hey guys, in sight of the new FAQ I'm leaning towards dropping my initial plan that relied a lot on the joined strike of Destroyers and Immortals T1.

My original list is as follows.

Spoiler:

Nephrek Battalion
Lord (Warscythe)
Cryptek (VoD, Immortal Pride)
10x Gauss Immortals
5x Tesla Immortals
19 Warriors
3x Scarabs
6x Destoyers

The plan was to deploy just the scarabs, cryptek, warriors and Tesla Immortals T1 in a way the opponent couldn't wipe them out. My first opportunity I'd veil the warriors and the Tek, drop the Lord, Gauss Immortals and Destroyers for the alpha strike. This strategy still works, but I am forced to wait until T2 now.

I'm considering switching to the following list.

Spoiler:

Novokh Outrider
Destoyer Lord (Blood Scythe, Crimson Haze)
C'tan shard of the Nightbringer
Transcedant C'tan
Transcedant C'tan
6x Scarabs
6x Scarabs

The idea is to start it up with mortal wounds and follow up on CC, offering nothing but my scarabs (and lone destroyer) as targets.

I know my main opponent will be runninf Pask + Tank commander + 3 russes + 30 guardsmen.

Any advice, tips and critics are welcome. I only have this week before my tournament!

Fyi that second list is not a legal outrider. Its only got two fast attacks. I would definetly condider making one of the T'ctan into the deciever. The quicker you get those t'ctan and night bringer into combat the better.