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ZOMG guys.

AC/Las Pred is 18 points moar.

LC - 2 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 3.1
AC - 4 * .666 * .5 * .5 * 3 = 4.4

WoW!! A predator does 4.9 damage more! What a pathetic dreadnought you have there for only 18 points less!

If you want to make silly mathhammer comparisons that apply to all dreadnoughts in general I can, too. Keep it in context. The lascannons of your opponent need to have others things to shoot - THAT GOES FOR ANY UNIT.

But for giggles - the theoretical DD w/ +1 to hit versus their CC specialist.
6 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 8.3 //Or a dead dreadnought

Alternatively a Dreadnought (with reroll 1s)...
5 * .777 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 6.5

You're right!!! We must Nerff the Predetor! It's clearly undercost!!! Oh btw, everyone! I want you to ignore the fact it's WS is 6+ and only has 3 attacks that do 1 damage at S6!




*puts on nerd glasses*

ALSO! Ignore the fact that for 228 points worth of models does only 2 points more damage for 100pts more! Or maybe becuase you spent so much on useless crap the Marine player brought the ven dreadnought out and (logs into mathhammer) does 7.562 damage! Wowwwweeeeeeee! OMG.... but he can give 1+ to everybody!!! Oh no... I guess if your opponent brings 4 DD's it's cool cus for that 80pts he spent on the banner you can afford 4 more venerable dreadnoughts anyway without paying any higher for buffs than he did... Oh? Only foing 7.7 damage? Well by the time they get you from accross the board your AC's will even things out...

QUICK MATHS!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
1) People bring one Deff Dread in lists that don't have a lot of vehicles to shoot
2) Lists do not support the Dread as a serious element
3) Additional klaws and guns should be slightly cheaper

Pros
- You can take 3 in a slot
- You can get it a 5++
- It can have the most attacks of any standard dread
- You can give it +1 to hit
- It can reroll failed charges

Cons
- It costs maybe 15 points too much
- S5 base (but S12 doesn't add that much anyway)

Seriously I think the problem is that people put one in their list and expect it to be amazing while they go off and support everything else in the army.

If you want to use them and have them be great - put some effort into it. Ork dreads are not vastly different than others in the game and can be the most top notch CC dread out there. 18 attacks that hit on 2s and a 5++ to get them there for under 600 is no joke.

It's like saying that devastator centurions are great. Just learn to play...no, they both are bad. Killa kans are better than deff dreads 99 times out of 100. Kans are still pretty bad if you want to win but better than dreads.

The problem with dreads, outside point cost is that they only deal damage in mellee while being slow and easy to kill. Even if a dread makes it to combat, it would deal atound 45 pts worth of razorback stomping. So, it will only pay off if the enemy just throws ideal targets at it without killing the dread outright. In practice it rarely happens. If you take 2 dreads so that one makes it to combat, it will need a minimum of 6 turns to pay off for both of them. It's gona reach combat around turn 3 and will pay off around turn 9 if the enemy stops trying to kill it for some reason.

Dreadnoughts for me have been a pressure element. They're less threatening than everything else, but left ignored and untarpitted become a huge pain. Most people want to shoot my Defiler, Predator, and Mutalith first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

It's like saying that devastator centurions are great. Just learn to play...no, they both are bad. Killa kans are better than deff dreads 99 times out of 100. Kans are still pretty bad if you want to win but better than dreads.

No, I think my statement is quite different from that. Ork Dreads are roughly equivalent to other dreads in durability and CC prowess. The weapons leave a lot to be desired, but that's the definition of Orks. That aside Orks have the greatest potential to make DD usable and Reece seems to think so as well.

The problem with dreads, outside point cost is that they only deal damage in mellee while being slow and easy to kill. Even if a dread makes it to combat, it would deal atound 45 pts worth of razorback stomping. So, it will only pay off if the enemy just throws ideal targets at it without killing the dread outright. In practice it rarely happens. If you take 2 dreads so that one makes it to combat, it will need a minimum of 6 turns to pay off for both of them. It's gona reach combat around turn 3 and will pay off around turn 9 if the enemy stops trying to kill it for some reason.

If a DD makes it to CC with no buffs it does 6 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 6.7 to any T7 3+ unit, which need not be a razorback for a cherry picked comparison. It needs four to go all the way through to blow a tank, which is WAY more likely for a DD with +1 to hit and 6 attacks.

Dreadnoughts are handy, because they're as tough as tanks, but don't bracket. The downside is fewer guns and having to walk them in.

But really, what do you shoot with your lascannons? Dreadnoughts which you've declared useless or a 'Naut? It's not like there's nothing else in the army and people only have the dreadnought to shoot.

I really like Deff dreads but hardly use them right now. I don't field less than two of them at a time.
131 points is a load to put in a single model heck it's nearly the cost of a Battle wagon but with out even close to the amount of wounds. For myself I stopped buying Boss Nobs any extra weapons last edition, that's was what the dread was for and did better. My reasoning was also that the Dread Klaws were already mandatory for the dread. And a deff dread couldn't be singled out by a challenge. (7th edition shtuff.)
Now in 8th I see it more or less the same but the costs for the dread are very high. So I have to plan a list it fits in and can't just drop it in on a whim. If we play Power Levels then I don't stress about what a dread or other costs. A dreads sole purpos os to chop things up while walking to said thing to be chopped up. Again, one won't be impressive but 3 get some work done for me. Heck I've had them wipe out squads, dreads and Explode to kill wounded characters. If they work together they do more.

In my experience, deff dreads look great but are pretty overpriced. I wouldn't use them unless you have pretty casual games, and don't care much for winning.

 lolman1c wrote:


You're right!!! We must Nerff the Predetor! It's clearly undercost!!! Oh btw, everyone! I want you to ignore the fact it's WS is 6+ and only has 3 attacks that do 1 damage at S6!




*puts on nerd glasses*

ALSO! Ignore the fact that for 228 points worth of models does only 2 points more damage for 100pts more! Or maybe becuase you spent so much on useless crap the Marine player brought the ven dreadnought out and (logs into mathhammer) does 7.562 damage! Wowwwweeeeeeee! OMG.... but he can give 1+ to everybody!!! Oh no... I guess if your opponent brings 4 DD's it's cool cus for that 80pts he spent on the banner you can afford 4 more venerable dreadnoughts anyway without paying any higher for buffs than he did... Oh? Only foing 7.7 damage? Well by the time they get you from accross the board your AC's will even things out...

QUICK MATHS!

LOL. I missed this gem.

Sorry, but if you'll notice the dreadnought got reroll 1s from a captain, which is equivalent cost to the banner nob. Try to pay attention next time.

The venerable does 4 *.833 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 5.5 -- even with reroll 1s it doesn't make it to 7.5 in CC. Sooo...good for you, I guess?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

If a DD makes it to CC with no buffs it does 6 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 6.7 to any T7 3+ unit, which need not be a razorback for a cherry picked comparison. It needs four to go all the way through to blow a tank, which is WAY more likely for a DD with +1 to hit and 6 attacks.

Dreadnoughts are handy, because they're as tough as tanks, but don't bracket. The downside is fewer guns and having to walk them in.

But really, what do you shoot with your lascannons? Dreadnoughts which you've declared useless or a 'Naut? It's not like there's nothing else in the army and people only have the dreadnought to shoot.

Why would you take a 4 klaw deff dread? It costs 150 pts. That's insane. If, for some reason, you want to take this awful unit, make it as cheap as possible. So that you would be able to take better stuff. Cause at this rate it becomes miserably 17% more durable than boyz vs bolter fire. And 316.67% less durable vs plasms. Deff dreads are by no means durable. Also, 150pt of unbuffed boyz will deal 7.4 wounds to t7 3+ armor. And another one with sluggas if they get to shoot. Also, a free nob upgrade will add a bit.

Summing up. It's got low mobility, low durability, it's damage output is lower than that of regular infantry even vs it's ideal targets. It has no synergy to speak of. It's one of the weakest dreadnought variants across all the factions.
Yeah, a great Deff Dread Non-Debate. To be honest, i wouldn't take a deff dread in a horde list even if it costed 100 pts. Just not worth it for breaking target saturation. I'd start considering them at around 80-90 pt mark to throw a couple on the flank.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't even know what to say to that.

I know, you clearly have no clue about orks units.

Deff dreads were 80 points before and no one was bringing them into battle. Now they're 131 points, lol.

The SW ven dread with axe and shield has a 3+ invuln, +1WS +3BS +1A and the axe causes D6 wounds instead of 3, all for the total cost of 162 points. Oh, it can also have the -1 to hit with smoke launchers, which is very helpful for a CC dread since it doens't have to shoot in turn 1 anyway and it also ignores a wound taken on a D6. It can also benefit from some characters that give the re-rolls for to hit and to wound rolls. That dread is far from being OP, in fact it is viable but not even than common in SW lists, despite armored stuff has sinergy with the army and adds target saturation since pretty much everything in the army is T5+ and multiwounds.

The deff dread is one of those poor units that lacks purpose. It can't be da jumped or deep strike so you can't guarantee your 150 pt model will ever see melee. It has to walk up the field and its slow AF.

Thanks to Ork bs, our overpriced guns and the prevalence of - 1 to hit it can't really shoot anything effectively. So if you equip it with guns, cheap as they are, they likely won't do anything.

T7, 3+ with no invulnerable is just not durable. We can assume kff all day but then we should add the points for it. A Banner Nob is also a very nice assumption that makes this unit even more costly.

Its also significantly overpriced. No question.

Here's the statline;
M6
WS3+
BS5+
S5
T7
W8
A2 (+2)
Ld7
Sv3+
That's 131 pts. 4 x 3+, str 10 AP-3, 3 damage attacks if he gets to melee. 6 x 5+ (assuming you don't advance), str 5 AP0, 1 damage shooting attacks at 36 range.

Here's the statline of a Wraithlord at max wound bracket;
M8
WS3+
BS3+
S7
T8
W10
A4
Ld9
Sv3+
That's 103 pts. 4 x 3+, str 7, AP-3, 3 damage attacks. 4 x 3+ str 4, AP0 (AP-3 on 6 to hit), 1 damage shooting attacks at 12 range (free shurikat). He's almost 30 pts cheaper. He has a degrading profile but it doesn't degrade until 5 wounds have been lost (movement drops an inch so still faster than DD, WS and BS up to 4+) and again when 8 wounds have been lost, which is irrelevant as the Deff dread is now dead.

As they are Deff dreads are awful and need a good looking at to make them viable in the codex. They are slow, easily killed melee specialists that inevitably never get to melee.

I've wanted to buy a Deff Dread, but can't justify it. In order to fix it, I'd say make it St6 standard, 4 attacks standard, and 9 wounds.

It is pretty much an unplayable unit right now. In the Ork index I think only the stompa is worse, and the stompa is epically bad. The Deff Dread has many negatives:

1) At almost 19 point per wound, it is extremely fragile

2) It is slow. It has a 6" move, and do not benefit from the Waaaagh.

3) It has very little shooting damage output, even when kitted out in the most shooty configuration. If you advance it to get faster into melee, then it hits on a 6+.

4) If the Deff Dread had a 50 point reduction it might be viable, but it would still not be great. The Ironclad dreadnought had a 40 point reduction in the codex, and it is now decent-but-not-great. Incidentally the Ironclad has T8, has better much better shooting, a stronger melee attack and is almost the exact same point cost as the deff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I've wanted to buy a Deff Dread, but can't justify it. In order to fix it, I'd say make it St6 standard, 4 attacks standard, and 9 wounds.

That would not fix it at all. It would make it more choppy, but more chop is the one thing it does need. It would still be slow, fragile, expensive and have no usefull shooting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:


You're right!!! We must Nerff the Predetor! It's clearly undercost!!! Oh btw, everyone! I want you to ignore the fact it's WS is 6+ and only has 3 attacks that do 1 damage at S6!




*puts on nerd glasses*

ALSO! Ignore the fact that for 228 points worth of models does only 2 points more damage for 100pts more! Or maybe becuase you spent so much on useless crap the Marine player brought the ven dreadnought out and (logs into mathhammer) does 7.562 damage! Wowwwweeeeeeee! OMG.... but he can give 1+ to everybody!!! Oh no... I guess if your opponent brings 4 DD's it's cool cus for that 80pts he spent on the banner you can afford 4 more venerable dreadnoughts anyway without paying any higher for buffs than he did... Oh? Only foing 7.7 damage? Well by the time they get you from accross the board your AC's will even things out...

QUICK MATHS!

LOL. I missed this gem.

Sorry, but if you'll notice the dreadnought got reroll 1s from a captain, which is equivalent cost to the banner nob. Try to pay attention next time.

The venerable does 4 *.833 * .666 * .833 * 3 = 5.5 -- even with reroll 1s it doesn't make it to 7.5 in CC. Sooo...good for you, I guess?

I was talking about rerolling with the strategies not capt

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seriously I think the problem is that people put one in their list and expect it to be amazing while they go off and support everything else in the army.

I assure, even if you bring 3, you're lucky if a single one reaches combat. Most ork players trying dread mobs (armies made of nothing but walkers) in the tactics thread report back getting tabled and dreads not doing anything.

If you want to use them and have them be great - put some effort into it. Ork dreads are not vastly different than others in the game and can be the most top notch CC dread out there. 18 attacks that hit on 2s and a 5++ to get them there for under 600 is no joke.

Actually, that's a complete joke.
- Venerable, ironclads, contemptor, redemptor dreads and hellbrutes outperform a deff dread in combat and are cheaper. All of them have additional rules on top of that, like smoke launchers, FNP, T8, 5++, frenzy and more
- All of them have good shooting options
- All of them benefit from legion traits and chapter tactics
- All of them can have better auras than the deff dreads, for less points.
Build any ork walker army, and then replace every single model with a corresponding space marine model. You will have a strictly better army that's not even considered to be worthwhile by most space marine players.

Guess what else has 18 attacks that hit on 2+ (with re-roll), wounds with re-rolls, has a 4++/5+++, moves 4" more than a dread, flies, is a psyker, has better shooting than your suggestion and is 130 points cheaper? Mortarion.

 koooaei wrote:


Why would you take a 4 klaw deff dread? It costs 150 pts. That's insane. If, for some reason, you want to take this awful unit, make it as cheap as possible.

I wouldn't - I stated earlier it needs to come down in cost. I'm just highlighting the niche Orks have available.

low durability

No different than any other standard dread

It has no synergy to speak of

KFF and Banner does the job well enough. I'm sure they'll see clan benefits as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No different than any other standard dread

Except for smoke launchers, T8, 6+++ or built-in 5++, of course. Assuming no defensive chapter tactics.

It has no synergy to speak of

KFF and Banner does the job well enough. I'm sure they'll see clan benefits as well.

Synergy goes both ways. Adding a deff dread to an ork army makes the army worse - that's the opposite of synergy.

By your logic every unit in the space marine codex is great because it can be buffed by Gulliman.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


Why would you take a 4 klaw deff dread? It costs 150 pts. That's insane. If, for some reason, you want to take this awful unit, make it as cheap as possible.

I wouldn't - I stated earlier it needs to come down in cost. I'm just highlighting the niche Orks have available.

What kind of niche that other stuff can't fill better? I think i didn't get it.

Regarding the rerolls to charge BT Dreads get that. They're still bad. If your metric for Deff Dreads being good is "they're almost as good as this other bad unit!" you have low standards indeed.

 Blackie wrote:
I know, you clearly have no clue about orks units.

Deff dreads were 80 points before and no one was bringing them into battle. Now they're 131 points, lol.

Says the guy trying to compare editions? No dreadnought will ever be 80 points in this edition.

The SW ven dread with axe and shield has a 3+ invuln, +1WS +3BS +1A and the axe causes D6 wounds instead of 3, all for the total cost of 162 points. Oh, it can also have the -1 to hit with smoke launchers, which is very helpful for a CC dread since it doens't have to shoot in turn 1 anyway and it also ignores a wound taken on a D6. It can also benefit from some characters that give the re-rolls for to hit and to wound rolls. That dread is far from being OP, in fact it is viable but not even than common in SW lists, despite armored stuff has sinergy with the army and adds target saturation since pretty much everything in the army is T5+ and multiwounds.

I'd say it's a bad idea to compare to an index army when you want to see where things might land. I'd also point out how badly Space Wolves index was mangled and that SW have no rhinos, predators, razorbacks or other vehicles aside from their flyers to distract anti-tank. I'm not wasting a lascannon on Wulfen and most of their stuff is NOT T5.

I spent some time looking over Deff dreads.

First, I think this is useless speculation, as the Dex is still on the way (someday)

That said, I think that they should come with 4 claw arms for the 130 cost, and then when swapping the guns in and out reach maybe the 140-150 cost.

That would make them cheap, but isn't cheap kind of the ork way?

 Jidmah wrote:

Actually, that's a complete joke.
- Venerable, ironclads, contemptor, redemptor dreads and hellbrutes outperform a deff dread in combat and are cheaper.

As stated it needs a point reduction. Dreadnoughts in general need a point reduction. A hellforged contemptor base is 103. SM dread is 70. Ork is currently 74, which is clearly too high.

All of them have additional rules on top of that, like smoke launchers, FNP, T8, 5++, frenzy and more

No, not all of them

- All of them benefit from legion traits and chapter tactics

Can you really fault an index army for this right now?

- All of them can have better auras than the deff dreads, for less points.

I disagree that there is much better than +1 to hit and 5++. RG being the exception, but for way more points.

Build any ork walker army, and then replace every single model with a corresponding space marine model. You will have a strictly better army that's not even considered to be worthwhile by most space marine players.

See below

Guess what else has 18 attacks that hit on 2+ (with re-roll), wounds with re-rolls, has a 4++/5+++, moves 4" more than a dread, flies, is a psyker, has better shooting than your suggestion and is 130 points cheaper? Mortarion.

18 1 damage AP2 attacks, sure. He's be better off using his other attack of course, but this is not really relevant unless you think Mortarion needs a huge point increase. I'm sure you could easily find lots of other things Mortarion would crush. And there needs to be a reason for someone to invest so many points into a single model as well as named characters in general. I could say, "Why take an Exalted Sorc when I can take Ahriman? He has +1 invuln, casts 1 more spell, and has +1 to cast, and 3 damage staff for 10 points more!". But I can only take one of Ahriman and he can't take relics. There is far more to consider to these things. If not then i'd simply take a whole army of Mortarians and call it a day.


9 CP - if I were rich i'd give it a whirl.

For Deff Dreads to be viable they need a few things IMO;

1. T8, an invuln, a FNP or 2 of those.
2. A price drop.
3. More flexibility. Allow us to replace all arms so we could have a shooty Dread if we wished.
4. 4+ BS, either inherent or with a "Git Finda" upgrade.
5. If we must take Dread Klaws, they need to be much faster, or have a mechanism that allows them to close distance safely.

You can make a unit as cheap as you like, but if it can't damage anything because it's shooting is awful and it's slow as molasses it's kinda pointless.

Look at the comparison to the 103 pt Wraithlord I did above. It does not make sense that they are so expensive. They will come down in cost and hopefully gain some other ability (extra damage against vehicles/monstrous creatures or something) that gives them a purpose.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

Dude, a normal dreadnought with better long range and cc is 134pts. It has 8 wounds, T7, and 4 built in S12 -3ap D3 attacks...

And 4 attacks to the DD's 6 with no option for 5++, +1 to hit, or reroll charges. DD is also T7 w/ 8 wounds - S12 is pretty irrelevant. A DD w/ 2 KMB and 2 klaws is 137.

Furthermore a regular dread has to forgo all ranged to get 5 attacks where the DD can get 5 attacks and still have a rokkit or KMB.

Yes, the dread's shooting is better by virtue of BS even though it pays 50 for a TL Las and the DD pays 24 for 2 rokkits or 18 for 2 KMB. But you aren't using both his ranged and melee like a DD can.

Seriously… we’re going to go with that logic…. Well… I guess here we go…

DD vs Dreadnought (for 3 nights only!):...

Freaking hell… here comes the chaplain…now we’re at 302pts and doing an average of 9. 259 damage in cc so we might as well just give up now…

Hark… an angle…. (this is my last sales pitch I swear). The Emperor has gifted us a Venable dreadnought for only 20pts more and he does everything the old one did but on 2s and a 6 up FNP… so yeah… Dreadnought wins in my mind.

Please be aware this is all based on averages and 3 damage will not lead to an even number. User experience may vary.

I'd exalt that twice if I could.

I like the morkanaut with the kff and a DD with some KK screening the morkanaut along with a ton of gretchin -
grots are mind-slaves to the walker kult set up by the big mek in mega armor.

Points, schmoints.

Reemule wrote:
I spent some time looking over Deff dreads.

First, I think this is useless speculation, as the Dex is still on the way (someday)

That said, I think that they should come with 4 claw arms for the 130 cost, and then when swapping the guns in and out reach maybe the 140-150 cost.

That would make them cheap, but isn't cheap kind of the ork way?

That's where i'd pit them roughly. I wouldn't increase the cost when swapping klaws for gunz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
For Deff Dreads to be viable they need a few things IMO;

1. T8, an invuln, a FNP or 2 of those.
2. A price drop.
3. More flexibility. Allow us to replace all arms so we could have a shooty Dread if we wished.
4. 4+ BS, either inherent or with a "Git Finda" upgrade.
5. If we must take Dread Klaws, they need to be much faster, or have a mechanism that allows them to close distance safely.

You can make a unit as cheap as you like, but if it can't damage anything because it's shooting is awful and it's slow as molasses it's kinda pointless.

Look at the comparison to the 103 pt Wraithlord I did above. It does not make sense that they are so expensive. They will come down in cost and hopefully gain some other ability (extra damage against vehicles/monstrous creatures or something) that gives them a purpose.

#1 will never happen.
#2 is a given.
#3 won't happen since the kit doesn't support it.
#4 Git finda would be awesome
#5 Bringing it up to 8" would make sense to me.

A wraithlord has brackets and is only S7 without the glaive and no guns. It could probably do with a small increase otherwise.

Why would I want to spend 150 points on a deff dread?

 Jidmah wrote:
Why would I want to spend 150 points on a deff dread?

Because they can be given +1 to hit and a 5++ to get there.

Yes they're slower. Yes they're more expensive. This is the index after all.

But getting a 15 to 20 point drop for a total of 60 points off your list will not dramatically change their current role. They're priced "about right" - still too high, but not sky high. Maybe an extra 10 points for for dreadnoughts in general to get people to use them.

Whenever I bring a dreadnought it gets ignored until it starts getting close. And by then they'll have to focus it down since it won't degrade at all, which takes the heat off my other vehicles. A unit doesn't need to always earn it's points back to be useful.

When I first started playing it was 5th edition, and that was what, like 8 or so years ago? One of the earlier models I ever bought and painted was the Deff Dread, which had come out in plastic pretty recently. As a result this is one of the very few models I actually fielded in actual games (as opposed to building, painting, and then displaying).

Every time I fielded them, they either got shot to death on the way or tarpitted. It also felt like they were pretty expensive for pretty so-so stats. Looks like that never changed.

Still a great model, though.

Short version: They are better than they've been in a LONG time, but they're overcosted for what they do.

For example, one with 4x klaws is on par, points wise, with a grey knights psychic dreadnought with a twin lascannon.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

All of them have additional rules on top of that, like smoke launchers, FNP, T8, 5++, frenzy and more

No, not all of them

Oh? Name a single one.

- All of them benefit from legion traits and chapter tactics

Can you really fault an index army for this right now?

Gotta love how you flip-flop between "can't compare to index" and "can't compare to codex" every other post. Make up your mind, man.

- All of them can have better auras than the deff dreads, for less points.

I disagree that there is much better than +1 to hit and 5++. RG being the exception, but for way more points.

Except for chapter masters, captains, sergeants, Azrael, dark shrouds, ancients...

Build any ork walker army, and then replace every single model with a corresponding space marine model. You will have a strictly better army that's not even considered to be worthwhile by most space marine players.

See below

So, let it spell me out again.
Build an ork walker army.
Replace every single model with the space marine equivalent.
The army is strictly better.
There is not a single thing the ork dread mob can do, the space marine army won't be able to do at least as good, while costing less and having far superior shooting and survivability.
And all that before even considering stratagems, buffs and chapter tactics.

Guess what else has 18 attacks that hit on 2+ (with re-roll), wounds with re-rolls, has a 4++/5+++, moves 4" more than a dread, flies, is a psyker, has better shooting than your suggestion and is 130 points cheaper? Mortarion.

18 1 damage AP2 attacks, sure. He's be better off using his other attack of course, but this is not really relevant unless you think Mortarion needs a huge point increase. I'm sure you could easily find lots of other things Mortarion would crush. And there needs to be a reason for someone to invest so many points into a single model as well as named characters in general. I could say, "Why take an Exalted Sorc when I can take Ahriman? He has +1 invuln, casts 1 more spell, and has +1 to cast, and 3 damage staff for 10 points more!". But I can only take one of Ahriman and he can't take relics. There is far more to consider to these things. If not then i'd simply take a whole army of Mortarians and call it a day.

So, to conclude your argument - because Arhiman can't take a relic, paying 600 points for three walkers that will never reach combat because they move 6" a turn is perfectly reasonable.

For the same points, I can have a captain and three redemptors with my choice of multi-melta or assault cannon that all hit on re-rolling 2+ (both shooting and combat), 5++/6+++ and wound anything but T8 on 2+ in combat.
I'd love to see what you make up how to make that look worse than 3 deff dreads, a banner nob and a KFF mek.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why would I want to spend 150 points on a deff dread?

Because they can be given +1 to hit and a 5++ to get there.

Yes they're slower. Yes they're more expensive. This is the index after all.

But getting a 15 to 20 point drop for a total of 60 points off your list will not dramatically change their current role. They're priced "about right" - still too high, but not sky high. Maybe an extra 10 points for for dreadnoughts in general to get people to use them.

Whenever I bring a dreadnought it gets ignored until it starts getting close. And by then they'll have to focus it down since it won't degrade at all, which takes the heat off my other vehicles. A unit doesn't need to always earn it's points back to be useful.

Again, you have no clue about how orks armies perform You can't compare chaos or imperium dreads to ork ones. It's basically like comparing a tac marine to two ork boyz.

In the reality orks deff dread are shot off the board without having the possibility of inflicting a single wound or they get tarpitted by infantries. Even if they are ignored by the anti tank a smart opponent won't let a deff dread charge something valuable.

They're too expensive for being distractions and they're too slow/lack durability to actually do something in close combat. Paying extra points for better weapons is a waste, remember that they are BS5+ and nothing gives them re-rolls.

The banner and the KFF can buff them but they can also buff other orks units which actually can benefit more from this buffs than the dread. We're also talking about other 154 points of characters that have no shooting and poor melee damage output.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Short version: They are better than they've been in a LONG time, but they're overcosted for what they do.

For example, one with 4x klaws is on par, points wise, with a grey knights psychic dreadnought with a twin lascannon.

They also are trying to operate in a game system and meta that favors lots of cheap bodies and having weight of dice when tarpits have historically been good against dreads of all kinds.