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Dionysodorus wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

Seriously does no-one check keywords on stratageums. The stim injector strat can't be used on a stormsurge.

LOL! Does anyone read FAQs.....I used the gear from the Index for it.

FYI, it's not clear that this is allowed -- the stim injector does not actually appear as an option "in the index version of its datasheet". The question here is whether index datasheets that refer to lists still refer to the index versions of those lists.

Ok, I'm confused. You said that Stim Injector isn't in it's datasheet for the Index. It states it can select 3 Support Systems just like everything else for Tau. Stim Injector is in the Index Support systems, but it is not in the Codex. We have all read the FAQ that states you can use it that way. Are you saying we need a FAQ to the FAQ? (If you are saying that they meant a weapon or gear piece listed in the datasheet's weapon profile then that is different, but still wouldn't apply as the do not always put every weapon profile in every datasheet).

 Da-Rock wrote:

Ok, I'm confused. You said that Stim Injector isn't in it's datasheet for the Index. It states it can select 3 Support Systems just like everything else for Tau. Stim Injector is in the Index Support systems, but it is not in the Codex. We have all read the FAQ that states you can use it that way. Are you saying we need a FAQ to the FAQ? (If you are saying that they meant a weapon or gear piece listed in the datasheet's weapon profile then that is different, but still wouldn't apply as the do not always put every weapon profile in every datasheet).

Yes, pretty much; the FAQ needs a FAQ. The current FAQ talks about stuff that's on the datasheet. The Stormsurge's index datasheet merely refers you to a list -- the same list that the codex datasheet refers to. So the question is whether that list is superseded by the list in the codex. This wasn't an issue for, e.g., the Autarch, since the codex doesn't have the list referred to in the index. I'm not sure that we've had this situation come up before.

Again, the problem is that the FAQ only clearly tells you that you can use wargear options that appear on the datasheet. Stim Injector doesn't actually appear on the datasheet. The option you get on the datasheet is just the ability to choose from a list, which is not itself on the datasheet and which was updated in the codex.

Yes, pretty much; the FAQ needs a FAQ. The current FAQ talks about stuff that's on the datasheet. The Stormsurge's index datasheet merely refers you to a list -- the same list that the codex datasheet refers to. So the question is whether that list is superseded by the list in the codex. This wasn't an issue for, e.g., the Autarch, since the codex doesn't have the list referred to in the index. I'm not sure that we've had this situation come up before.

Again, the problem is that the FAQ only clearly tells you that you can use wargear options that appear on the datasheet. Stim Injector doesn't actually appear on the datasheet. The option you get on the datasheet is just the ability to choose from a list, which is not itself on the datasheet and which was updated in the codex.

I can see what you are saying, but that is looking too hard for something. It refers to a list simply because there are too many options to fit on the datasheet. There are several datasheets that do not show stats for a weapon, but it is in the list of weapons available. I do not power game because we only play casual....no one seems to have an issue with how the Stormsurge gear plays out in relation to the Index/Codex compared to everything else.

* Of course now that I've said that, GW will FAQ their FAQ and say "No"

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

Commanders got boosted. There was a nerf to how many you can take but single commanders are more powerful more so with the Coldstar which is worded so it can take 5 weapons and move 40” a turn. Stealth Teams got boosted by being made cheaper and do not need a further boost. Crisis can already put out I think it was around the same if not more damage then a Riptide so they don't need buffing more.

Pottsey wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

Commanders got boosted. There was a nerf to how many you can take but single commanders are more powerful more so with the Coldstar which is worded so it can take 5 weapons and move 40” a turn. Stealth Teams got boosted by being made cheaper and do not need a further boost. Crisis can already put out I think it was around the same if not more damage then a Riptide so they don't need buffing more.

If you're going to play around with RAW on the Coldstar, just take six weapons because the wording indicates you can exchange each missile pod or HOBC for two items. Half-assed rules lawyering, smh.

 Da-Rock wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend. Having ATS, Shield Generator and Stim Injector made it play well.

Having the repair Stratagem put me up from 10 wounds to 12 which made it better than burning the other Stratagem to give it top line stats.

It went up against an Ork Stompa. The Bor'Kan Sept helped on one shot, but not on the second turn when I was beyond 16" from a Fallback. The x4 Destroyer Missiles did very well against the Marked giant!

Seriously does no-one check keywords on stratageums. The stim injector strat can't be used on a stormsurge.

LOL! Does anyone read FAQs.....I used the gear from the Index for it.

The stratageum to use the top stat teir is ironically called stimulant injector. And can only be used on battlesuit units.
I know we can use the workaround to get all the old support systems from the index untill GW gives tau the destinction of being the first army to loose that optipn aswell

 Da-Rock wrote:
I enjoyed playing the Stormsurge this weekend.

It went up against an Ork Stompa.

offcourse it did wel VS the stompa. It's just a 1K points practice target atm

I think as a stand alone 8th ed codex its pretty good. There are going to be mass infantry lists buffed by protected characters, and lots of character markerlights ( fireblade and firesights). You can stack drones and Sept rules to add 12 inches to some weapons making the gun line gross ( 4 rapid fire shots at 21 inches ?)

But as a long time player of tau the army has shifted, a lot of the mobility is gone and the classic bread and butter unit ( crisis suits) are a bit spendy to field in multiple. Its looking like a lot of bonuses only appear if you stand still. Its the return of the 5th ed castled blob of Tau in a corner.

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

And a missed opportunity to give players a reason to take crisis body guards, right now its an over costed drone, they could have brought back the +1 to WS they had in the 4th ed book. then farsight could have a better CC retinue.

So it will be great for some players but I see an army and a codex that wont be fun to play in its current iteration. YMMV

I don't think the buff drones will see a lot of use past the first couple of turns. I think it might depend on the terrain layout, but they're not characters and only have T4/1W/4+ to protect them, so pretty much any nlos attack will negate the one other possible defence the drone would have (hiding out of los). And while it might be a waste of fire power, not much more would be accomplished by shooting the majority of the T3/4+ infantry with what's most likely a d3/d6 shot weapon imo.

 Mecha_buddha wrote:

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

Yeah I think we're all pretty confused why Hammerheads didn't get the Leman/Fire Prism treatment.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Very surprised to see the lack of discussion about the new Tau dex. It's out, people are playing with it, but dakka seems quite silent. Heck, I even see a lack of threats even griping about how good or bad they are. Any explanations for this seeming whisper of a codex release?

People are having a hard time finding big problems with it, I guess? Maybe the base is a little more sane now that Gamgee is banned? Your guess is as good as mine!

Gamgee got banned? I was wondering why he was so quiet, I've not seen a single conspiracy post suggesting GW is out to squat anyone whose not Imperium or Chaos in some time

I think a big reason for the silence is that you like some of the other codexes, not much really changed.

Pretty much everything is still sitting at roughly a "meh" level outside of a few big changes like the commander limitation and gun drone nerf.

Nothing became terrifying, and most of the stuff that was unusable now is less bad but not amazing... Basically there's not a lot to get excited about, and all the complaints have already been made.

Deadawake1347 wrote:
I think a big reason for the silence is that you like some of the other codexes, not much really changed.

Pretty much everything is still sitting at roughly a "meh" level outside of a few big changes like the commander limitation and gun drone nerf.

Nothing became terrifying, and most of the stuff that was unusable now is less bad but not amazing... Basically there's not a lot to get excited about, and all the complaints have already been made.

There is never enough complaining. This is the internet.

 meleti wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The dex buffed a few units to where they’re not bad (riptides and broadsides don’t auto lose you the game anymore) but with drones and commanders nerfed, it feels like we’re not too great most of the small suits still are too expensive. We need a buff to crisis suits and stealth suits, and kroot are 1 point too much. Right now, it still feels like we’re lacking in a lot of ways when compared to things like guard.

I still go through a lot of the units and wargear we have and go “why would you ever spend that much?”

I guess the book helped, but more would of been nice. It wasn’t the grey knight treatment though.. I have 6k of grey Knights, so I know.

Commanders got boosted. There was a nerf to how many you can take but single commanders are more powerful more so with the Coldstar which is worded so it can take 5 weapons and move 40” a turn. Stealth Teams got boosted by being made cheaper and do not need a further boost. Crisis can already put out I think it was around the same if not more damage then a Riptide so they don't need buffing more.

If you're going to play around with RAW on the Coldstar, just take six weapons because the wording indicates you can exchange each missile pod or HOBC for two items. Half-assed rules lawyering, smh.

No kidding. a 40" moving Coldstar with 6 Fusion Guns hitting on 2's (lots of ways to ignore the advance penalty) for 216 pts is enough to scare any tank or monster

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
I think as a stand alone 8th ed codex its pretty good. There are going to be mass infantry lists buffed by protected characters, and lots of character markerlights ( fireblade and firesights). You can stack drones and Sept rules to add 12 inches to some weapons making the gun line gross ( 4 rapid fire shots at 21 inches ?)

But as a long time player of tau the army has shifted, a lot of the mobility is gone and the classic bread and butter unit ( crisis suits) are a bit spendy to field in multiple. Its looking like a lot of bonuses only appear if you stand still. Its the return of the 5th ed castled blob of Tau in a corner.

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

And a missed opportunity to give players a reason to take crisis body guards, right now its an over costed drone, they could have brought back the +1 to WS they had in the 4th ed book. then farsight could have a better CC retinue.

So it will be great for some players but I see an army and a codex that wont be fun to play in its current iteration. YMMV

Problem with Tau in its current state (being in 8th) is that the Tau are a shooting focused army at the cost of basically everything else. With 8th they lost some of their options that gave them power outside of "shooting all the things" leaving Tau in the uncomfortable spot of needing to rely on the most irritating of mechanics which is killing them before they can get close to you. Seems to me that Tau will be forced to play the ranged game, bleed expendable casualties (Kroot and Fire Warriors) as screens to buy time for more group overwatching, and go for the table before they get tabled.

 Vankraken wrote:
Problem with Tau in its current state (being in 8th) is that the Tau are a shooting focused army at the cost of basically everything else. With 8th they lost some of their options that gave them power outside of "shooting all the things" leaving Tau in the uncomfortable spot of needing to rely on the most irritating of mechanics which is killing them before they can get close to you. Seems to me that Tau will be forced to play the ranged game, bleed expendable casualties (Kroot and Fire Warriors) as screens to buy time for more group overwatching, and go for the table before they get tabled.

ah yes the combat step, where your opponent pays you back for all your fun shooting. Where 3 orks can wipe a squad of firewarriors. Or at least that is how it used to work.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
I think as a stand alone 8th ed codex its pretty good. There are going to be mass infantry lists buffed by protected characters, and lots of character markerlights ( fireblade and firesights). You can stack drones and Sept rules to add 12 inches to some weapons making the gun line gross ( 4 rapid fire shots at 21 inches ?)

But as a long time player of tau the army has shifted, a lot of the mobility is gone and the classic bread and butter unit ( crisis suits) are a bit spendy to field in multiple. Its looking like a lot of bonuses only appear if you stand still. Its the return of the 5th ed castled blob of Tau in a corner.

I think Tau tanks got the short end of the stick, if you are adding shots to other models why not make a hammerhead railgun D3 shots?

And a missed opportunity to give players a reason to take crisis body guards, right now its an over costed drone, they could have brought back the +1 to WS they had in the 4th ed book. then farsight could have a better CC retinue.

So it will be great for some players but I see an army and a codex that wont be fun to play in its current iteration. YMMV

Problem with Tau in its current state (being in 8th) is that the Tau are a shooting focused army at the cost of basically everything else. With 8th they lost some of their options that gave them power outside of "shooting all the things" leaving Tau in the uncomfortable spot of needing to rely on the most irritating of mechanics which is killing them before they can get close to you. Seems to me that Tau will be forced to play the ranged game, bleed expendable casualties (Kroot and Fire Warriors) as screens to buy time for more group overwatching, and go for the table before they get tabled.

That's always been their underlying design theme, alongside mobility in fishes to grab objectives. To give them notable melee punch stops them being the same army by design.

Personally I'm probably about to start up a small Tau army as a direct response to this Codex. I think it's balanced, meaty, with lots of options and tactics. I was a bit worried about the whine associated with the faction, but when I dipped my toe in the Advanced Tau Tactica I was really happy to see a positive and supportive community. I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

grouchoben wrote:
Personally I'm probably about to start up a small Tau army as a direct response to this Codex. I think it's balanced, meaty, with lots of options and tactics. I was a bit worried about the whine associated with the faction, but when I dipped my toe in the Advanced Tau Tactica I was really happy to see a positive and supportive community. I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

I'm in the same boat as you man, I bought the get-started box and some stealth suits as I love the models.
The only thing thats bugging me is that I think the Crisis Suits are rather expensive, but without having played a game yet I can't really say how they perform.

grouchoben wrote:
I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

Because ATT has a policy, implicitly or explicitly, of positive opinions only and "excessive" negativity is not welcome. Dakka/reddit/etc, on the other hand, are mixed forums that aren't dominated by the most optimistic fanboys of a single faction. As a result you tend to get more honest opinions about a particular faction.

FunJohn wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Personally I'm probably about to start up a small Tau army as a direct response to this Codex. I think it's balanced, meaty, with lots of options and tactics. I was a bit worried about the whine associated with the faction, but when I dipped my toe in the Advanced Tau Tactica I was really happy to see a positive and supportive community. I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

I'm in the same boat as you man, I bought the get-started box and some stealth suits as I love the models.
The only thing thats bugging me is that I think the Crisis Suits are rather expensive, but without having played a game yet I can't really say how they perform.

Most of the whine comes from people who want Tau to be Guard (or God)-tier, are angry that they can't spam Commanders anymore (I actually think it's a fairly good solution and most likely things like Daemon Princes, Grandmasters in Dreadknights and Hive Tyrants are the next to receive this treatment) and that Crisis suits are too expensive to be spammed. None of which are valid complaints IMO, but to each his own.

Crisis suits are overcosted when viewed in a vacuum, yes. Support and play them properly (drones, markerlights, FSE stratagem, drop Farsight with them and use the reroll-wounds-but-commander-can't-shoot stratagem on them, etc.) and they can potentially be devastating however. Put 5 markerlights on a target and pop the 2 aforementioned stratagems on them and they go from BS4+ to BS2+ with rerolling 1s and reroll all wound rolls when they deepstrike while Farsight only loses 2 plasma shots. They are now a surgical strike unit designed to take out your opponents' special snowflakes with overwhelming firepower from deepstrike. However, they are not a general purpose spammable unit anymore and probably work best with FSE tenets because of the stratagem and the fact you lose almost nothing by popping the Commander-can't-shoot stratagem on Farsight. That's the whole thing with Tau though, you are supposed to play them in such a way that their whole is more than the sum of their parts in order to do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
I think the whine is much stronger here and on Reddit than on ATT, I have no idea why.

Because ATT has a policy, implicitly or explicitly, of positive opinions only and "excessive" negativity is not welcome. Dakka/reddit/etc, on the other hand, are mixed forums that aren't dominated by the most optimistic fanboys of a single faction. As a result you tend to get more honest opinions about a particular faction.

And unfounded whining based on entitlement and gut feeling.

Pandabeer wrote:
Put 5 markerlights on a target and pop the 2 aforementioned stratagems on them and they go from BS4+ to BS2+ with rerolling 1s and reroll all wound rolls when they deepstrike while Farsight only loses 2 plasma shots.

And that's the problem. You're talking about a full squad of pathfinders and burning a bunch of CP for the stratagems just to get them up to a decent, not god-tier, level. That's a pretty big investment to make, especially when it's a one-shot weapon now that JSJ no longer exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:
And unfounded whining based on entitlement and gut feeling.

Yeah, that horrible entitlement, how dare we feel entitled to an army that is more than an ork-style gunline that castles in the corner and rolls buckets of dice until someone wins. How dare we be annoyed at GW for progressively removing more and more of what the Tau used to be in favor of more gunlines. We should just accept that we are the most boring one-dimensional gunline army ever, and be thankful that we're maybe at least second tier in competitive games.

 Peregrine wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Put 5 markerlights on a target and pop the 2 aforementioned stratagems on them and they go from BS4+ to BS2+ with rerolling 1s and reroll all wound rolls when they deepstrike while Farsight only loses 2 plasma shots.

And that's the problem. You're talking about a full squad of pathfinders and burning a bunch of CP for the stratagems just to get them up to a decent, not god-tier, level. That's a pretty big investment to make, especially when it's a one-shot weapon now that JSJ no longer exists.

You'd take those Pathfinders for Markerlight support anyway, Crisis suits or not, so that's kind of a moot point. But yes, it's expensive, but also potentially very powerful if you play it right. I still do not feel Crisis Suits are too expensive however. It's also kind of hard to balance them between being too expensive or very spammable. Maybe their weapon costs could go down a bit to account for their base BS4+, I don't know.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:
And unfounded whining based on entitlement and gut feeling.

Yeah, that horrible entitlement, how dare we feel entitled to an army that is more than an ork-style gunline that castles in the corner and rolls buckets of dice until someone wins. How dare we be annoyed at GW for progressively removing more and more of what the Tau used to be in favor of more gunlines. We should just accept that we are the most boring one-dimensional gunline army ever, and be thankful that we're maybe at least second tier in competitive games.

It is more than "just a gunline". Maybe that's the case for ultra-competitive, but most factions suffer from mono-build syndrome if they want to win a GT (Eldar Dark Reapers, Girlyman, Commander spam during index Tau, etc.). For more casual play I'm seeing a lot of options, from infantry gunlines to more mobile suit-focused. The only really big gripe I have with the codex at the moment is that Rail Cannon Hammerheads seem to be utter trash (even if Ion Cannon Hammerheads seem to be quite nice at first glance).

3 crisis suits is 300 ish points farsight id 150 thats 450 points plus 5 markerlights is another 100 is points. Drones are going to ve another 50 so thats 600 points for 3 suits 4 drones farsight and pathfinders, With no markerlight redundancy. Realistically to clear screens etc your not going to be dropping untill turn 2 ao you need to have enough markerlights to be avle to get 5 hits on turn 2 drones only hit on 5's so thats 180points but with interupt shooting you need spares so another 5 for attrition 60 points. I dont have my codex to hand so points might be a little off.
300 for 3 suits 150 for farsight and 240 for drones your nearly 700 points for a turn 2 alpha strike. You can get almost the same firepower from 2 quad fusion coldstar commanders at 350 points.

Pandabeer wrote:
You'd take those Pathfinders for Markerlight support anyway, Crisis suits or not, so that's kind of a moot point.

It really isn't. Opportunity cost is a thing, you don't take units for generic "markerlight support" and just assume that they're free. If you want 100 points worth of markerlight hits you add 100 points to the cost of the unit you're supporting.

It's also kind of hard to balance them between being too expensive or very spammable.

No more so than any other unit.

It is more than "just a gunline".

It really isn't. JSJ? Gone. Tanks that can move and shoot? Gone. Just line up your gunline and roll dice.

 Peregrine wrote:

It really isn't. JSJ? Gone. Tanks that can move and shoot? Gone. Just line up your gunline and roll dice.

I mean you can move your tanks with a small penalty...not that you really moved them much before anyway? And dancing around while shooting counts as NOT a gunline?

There is nothing to Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, and Wall of Mirrors?
Or to an unrestricted deepstrike with a Recon Drone?
Or Dal'y'th doing their version of JSJ?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean you can move your tanks with a small penalty...not that you really moved them much before anyway?

The "small" penalty of losing 25% of their firepower? No thanks. And I moved my tanks all the time back in 5th edition. Being able to move 12" to get a good shot was a really strong ability.

FFS, even IG tanks can shoot at full BS while moving. But nope, we get less mobility than the definition of "gunline army".

And dancing around while shooting counts as NOT a gunline?

What "dancing" is there? You can't JSJ, so the only direction you want to move is directly away from the scary melee things (AKA "anything that isn't Tau"). And at that point you can just deploy your gunline as far back as possible in your deployment zone instead of bothering to move. It's not like you have to worry about not being in range, anything but Tau (or maybe an IG barrage list) will be moving towards you as fast as possible to wipe you off the table in melee.

Or Dal'y'th doing their version of JSJ?

Oh yes, where I can now restrict myself to a single sub-faction and burn CP to use something that used to be the core of my army. Sounds like a great upgrade.

 Peregrine wrote:


The "small" penalty of losing 25% of their firepower? No thanks. And I moved my tanks all the time back in 5th edition. Being able to move 12" to get a good shot was a really strong ability.

FFS, even IG tanks can shoot at full BS while moving. But nope, we get less mobility than the definition of "gunline army".

And IG tanks can't fly. The goal isn't to bring everyone up to IG and Ynarri you know.

What "dancing" is there? You can't JSJ, so the only direction you want to move is directly away from the scary melee things (AKA "anything that isn't Tau"). And at that point you can just deploy your gunline as far back as possible in your deployment zone instead of bothering to move. It's not like you have to worry about not being in range, anything but Tau (or maybe an IG barrage list) will be moving towards you as fast as possible to wipe you off the table in melee.

Tau have probably the best chance at making a CQC army that makes judicious use of flamers.

Oh yes, where I can now restrict myself to a single sub-faction and burn CP to use something that used to be the core of my army. Sounds like a great upgrade.

It's all about trade-offs. And you want to complain about gunlines, but you'd use JSJ to make a more effective gunline...

Woah, Peregrine, let's not use logic here. Tau players are just whinging right? How dare we be unhappy with our bland codex that didn't really fix any of the index's problems.

Next thing you know Tau will be complaining about not having a psychic phase! Egads!