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What are you people talking about? Orks were a decent army in 5th, until 6th Edition hit them with a sledgehammer.

I'm all for orks being delayed in hopes of getting nice rules and new stuff.

Ork players who want their codex NOW are super weird gretchen-for-brains.

Yeah just hit me with a copy and paste of the index! Soon is better than good! No I don't want nice new models just do a quick release one like AdMech or Grey Knights. We'll be super happy with that.

 Silentz wrote:
Ork players who want their codex NOW are super weird gretchen-for-brains.

Yeah just hit me with a copy and paste of the index! Soon is better than good! No I don't want nice new models just do a quick release one like AdMech or Grey Knights. We'll be super happy with that.

What if I told you that a delay in codex release does not necessarily mean good codex rules and new models?

As I said, you've got gretchen for brains.

Save this post and throw it back at me when you get an afterthought of a codex with no new models or options.

GW dont know how to handle orks on 8th. There is no way they can balance ork shooting since a simple -1 to hit will halve the number of hits.

I have no hope at all that a codex will solve anything. GW has decided that orks= horde of boyz and nothing else.

 jhnbrg wrote:
GW dont know how to handle orks on 8th. There is no way they can balance ork shooting since a simple -1 to hit will halve the number of hits.

I have no hope at all that a codex will solve anything. GW has decided that orks= horde of boyz and nothing else.

2CP: DeadEye Skopez
ORK STRATAGEM
Select an ORK INFANTRY unit. All hit rolls from this unit are made at +1.


1CP: Morky Luck
ORK STRATAGEM
After rolling to hit with an ORK model, roll a d3 and convert that many misses to hits.


There are ways. Just because you can't think of them doesn't mean nobody can.

 Silentz wrote:
As I said, you've got gretchen for brains.

Save this post and throw it back at me when you get an afterthought of a codex with no new models or options.

You have lots of faith in a company that has repeatedly made Orks the worst army in the game. Good for you.

What makes you so confident we get new models? If we get them the wait will definitely be worth it but seeing as we've had nothing to indicate otherwise from GW I don't think we will.

E - your "solution" to our shooting being wrecked by modifiers is a once per turn 2CP stratagem and a once per turn 1CP stratagem that grants a massive possible 3 hits? No. Just no. This is the worst idea I've seen since someone suggested making Boyz 7ppm.

E2 - also you realise that your example Is kind stupid with Admech since they not only had their codex way before ours but also have new models with the mini Knights before us?

I thought Ork players were meant to be fun and light hearted and wacky?

The company doesn't have a vendetta against a particular model range. They don't look at their year end balance sheets and shout at each other in the board meeting "IDIOTS we sold too many Orks! You have them "mob up" and someone went and bought a box of Boyz! Goddammit make them even worse!"

You will get a codex. It will come with cool stuff. Be cool.

At least your not a space marine player who got first the worst. Compare the SM stratagems to ones like Custodes, Tau and Necrons. Miles apart.

I'm not saying they have a vendetta. I'm saying they are incompetent and don't understand how to effectively balance the army.

We're not here to talk about SM, if you have beef about their codex take it elsewhere. At least they have one.

 Silentz wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
GW dont know how to handle orks on 8th. There is no way they can balance ork shooting since a simple -1 to hit will halve the number of hits.

I have no hope at all that a codex will solve anything. GW has decided that orks= horde of boyz and nothing else.

2CP: DeadEye Skopez
ORK STRATAGEM
Select an ORK INFANTRY unit. All hit rolls from this unit are made at +1.


1CP: Morky Luck
ORK STRATAGEM
After rolling to hit with an ORK model, roll a d3 and convert that many misses to hits.


There are ways. Just because you can't think of them doesn't mean nobody can.

None of your "solutions" solve anything. Ork shooting have for a long time been about lots of dice and poor hit chance, this is easy to balance against less dice but better hit chance. The return of hit modifiers in 8th makes it impossible to balance these things as there is no way you can put a "worth" on the -1 to hit.

I actually kind of like the last one.

Being able gun down one -2 to hit unit per turn would be a great improvement - it's not rangers giving us trouble, it's planes and vehicles. And you don't kill that much more than one vehicle per turn through shooting with most armies in the game.

Strategems can indeed be used to mitigate horrible shooting and to-hit modifiers. 2 cp for +1 to hit on a 5+ bs is really rough though.

The problem is that orks don't get a lot of cp atm. A fining' kap will surely help with that. 5+ to return or steal cp. + a trait or something. We might also get super ghaz but i'm afraid he's gona be ruined by having 10+ wounds. Cause he allready has 8 iirc.

I don't think CP will be a problem if you actually need them. Just add 3x gretchin+2weird boy for 3 CP.

The reason why orks aren't doing that already is that we don't have use for those CP.

And to be clear those are not playtested or developed ideas. I literally just thought "what stratagems could you create which would mitigate the issues of hit debuffs"

Given that Orks come in massive units, allowing more than one unit to get the +1 might be seriously OP.

The 2nd stratagem was more for your heavy weapons types. You wouldnt use it on shootas.

Who knows, maybe the Bad Moons will have a Clan... er... "chapter tactic" which is +1 to hit when more than 12" away. To represent their preference for ranged combat and big gunz

They probably won't but there ARE ways to make ork shooting work.

 Silentz wrote:

They probably won't but there ARE ways to make ork shooting work.

That's what we all think.

 koooaei wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

They probably won't but there ARE ways to make ork shooting work.

That's what we all think.

I’ve mathhammered Ork Shooting and Melee to hell this week. At BS 5+ Orks just are not good. The best units that shoot for their points are Mek Gunz with Kustom Mega Kannons. They make back their points in most scenarios where the target has 2 Wounds. Orks outperform in Melee a lot, making back their points very easily.

Jamstrap wrote:
So if I'm correct there's still about 3 more codex to be announced.. Orks being one of them. When do you reckon it will be out, taking into account the pattern from the previous releases?

I've got a giant pile of orks that need making but I've been waiting for the codex.

3 more codexes only if we assume no more "suprise new armies!" ala custodes.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

They probably won't but there ARE ways to make ork shooting work.

That's what we all think.

I’ve mathhammered Ork Shooting and Melee to hell this week. At BS 5+ Orks just are not good. The best units that shoot for their points are Mek Gunz with Kustom Mega Kannons. They make back their points in most scenarios where the target has 2 Wounds. Orks outperform in Melee a lot, making back their points very easily.

Mek gunz are BS4+

 jhnbrg wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

They probably won't but there ARE ways to make ork shooting work.

That's what we all think.

I’ve mathhammered Ork Shooting and Melee to hell this week. At BS 5+ Orks just are not good. The best units that shoot for their points are Mek Gunz with Kustom Mega Kannons. They make back their points in most scenarios where the target has 2 Wounds. Orks outperform in Melee a lot, making back their points very easily.

Mek gunz are BS4+

I didn’t say they weren’t BS4+, read my post again. They are the best shooting option Orks have. Morkanauts with the same weapon are going to get outperformed by Grots in Shooting. It’s simple math that anyone can see. The only time Ork Shooting is on average making its points back is with Mek Gunz. Yes a Shokk attack Gun might take out a Redemptor Dread in one Volley (Did it, it was awesome), but the rest of the game you could end up with it missing every shot (Same game, true story).

 Jidmah wrote:


The reason why orks aren't doing that already is that we don't have use for those CP.

Yeah, not even a good D6 damage weapon, just the kannon. No one would burn a CP for re-roll a result of 1 on a D3 damage weapon, lol.

Honestly one thing orks could use to offset all of these negative hit modifiers is a way around it. or if GW would make to hit rolls like to wound rolls where a 6 always is a success.

something like "volume of fire" - orks put out a volley of fire in the general direction of the target saturating the air with pire. negative to hit modifiers are ignored by ork units with the ere we go rule. so gretchin stay at BS4+ and proper orks still hit on a 5+ but the meager shooting we already have is not further cut in half anymore.

it would also make sense for some units to lose the ere we go rule where they are dedicated long range shooters like lootas. give them a giffinder to be BS4+ and while we are at it make them a 2 shot gun not a d3 shot (or at least roll per model so it evens out more, currently 3 shots are great, but 1 shot means they basically waste a turn, competitive play means we need more consistency) if you want to make them worth 17 points then bs4 and a 4+ armor (look at the model they are in a metal cage basically) alternatively they are as is worth about 8-9 points a model (compared to other army equivalents on ranged dmg output) so price them accordingly

our battlewagons, gorka/morkanaught and stompa could all use something like gretchin gunners rule and be BS4+

of course alternative to pretty much all of this would be actually making things priced appropriately. then again I doubt we get that as most of our units need points drops of 30-50%

There's going to be a massive dual release of Space Wolves and Orks with a new Primarch-sized (or BIGGER) Ghazghkull Thraka and Leman Russ. And my wallet is going to downright die because I'm throwing money out of it so fast.

I just cannot see two popular factions getting their codexes last of the bunch without getting some sweet models on the side.

 Weazel wrote:
There's going to be a massive dual release of Space Wolves and Orks with a new Primarch-sized (or BIGGER) Ghazghkull Thraka and Leman Russ. And my wallet is going to downright die because I'm throwing money out of it so fast.

I just cannot see two popular factions getting their codexes last of the bunch without getting some sweet models on the side.

I will be happy if we get a good balanced ork and wolves codex and elated if the supposed box game wolves vs orks is really a thing. I have no doubt the wolves will as always get a great codex with nice original units and a totally different flavor than any other power armor army. I also hope Leman Russ is all wulfined out and now a proper match to fight demon primarchs in combat fluff wise and on the tabletop....

but I have been playing orks for to long to have much hope that gw will do the ork codex well. if chapter approved is any indication GW just plain doesn't understand orks. we got the worst stratagem of any army made worse by the fact that it is on a bs5 model. On a to hit of 6 they get another chance to hit at bs5+... seriously if they had done an auto hit it would be better but still a wasted command point compared to other armies. the orks need ground up redesign and if that is why we are fashionably late... fine so be it I will sing accolades to GW about how my expectations were wrong... but I don't think I will be.

Point drops on most things, always hit on 6's in shooting, throw in a few more Inv. saves on high target units, (like bikers/buggies if they advance!) stratagems to improve survival during the shooting phase, (smoke stick bombs?) etc.

We can work, just need to take some ideas from older editions. Sadly, I don't see this happening unless Ork boys see a change for less spam... BUT, if other units become more viable this might happen on its own.

KillerOfMany wrote:
Point drops on most things, always hit on 6's in shooting, throw in a few more Inv. saves on high target units, (like bikers/buggies if they advance!) stratagems to improve survival during the shooting phase, (smoke stick bombs?) etc.

We can work, just need to take some ideas from older editions. Sadly, I don't see this happening unless Ork boys see a change for less spam... BUT, if other units become more viable this might happen on its own.

I don't mind Mass boyz but I would like to at least add a Mork/Gork to the list with some trukks to make the army seem a little more authentic.

 Blackie wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Or they just figured you guys could handle being last.

We're not SM, they're the professional whiners

Sisters of Battle aren't Space Marines. The identical hair cuts are the big give away.

Mass Boyz aren’t a problem. They are the baseline Orks should be at for every unit in terms of how good they are.

What should happen instead of nerfing boyz? Points drops for Trukks and Battlewagons. And add a ‘ard Boyz option(new unit, not upgrade) that can only be taken in squads of 20max with 4+ Armor saves, without the 20+ extra attack ability.

Its really not that GW have a vendetta against ork players. There is no over-arching plan to nerf us.

It is exactly the case that amidst the collective minds of the design and writing team they have a sort of generalised idea of the way they want to go with the game. The designers that like certain things promote them and the ones that like others promote those. There is no one in GW promoting Orks. They sit in the side pile of stuff we have that we just have to produce content for but no one is passionate about like GK etc.

It is sad and it is galling to know that those responsible for our armies future couldn't give a snotling for it. Must have been how Horus felt.

But on the brightside they could never Squat us. It is plausible however that the new drive to reach out to community and their recent questionnaire will be the places where ork players can voice their concerns and the strength of feeling can maybe move things along.

Boyz are gravy. Stormies and Kommandos are decent too.
It's most everything else that needs looking at.

Why take any Mek gun apart from the KMK?

Bikes, Buggies and Koptas of all flavours have no role in the army that isn't far better fulfilled by another unit.

Nobs need some specific stratagems I think but they are almost there.

Flash Gits need some specific stratagems and a 4+ save minimum to be worth anything.

Deff Dreads are point for point worse than their equivalent in other armies. Killa Kans are not worth their points.

Our transports are too expensive and do too little for the cost. They're used almost exclusively for Tank Bustas.

Our flyers are OK. Not good, but OK.

Our characters are OK excluding Ghaz who is a monster.

Mork/Gorkanaut might as well not have any guns.

Stompa is tragic.