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So, still no rumors. I'm quite upset.

About the other issues, GW shouldn't change point value only on CA?

I feel like, once you want to have your index, your codex, and chapter approved just to figure out what all your stuff costs, "point changes in a FAQ would be points in too many places" just isn't very persuasive. We're already past the point where everyone should just be using battlescribe or whatever.

They are bringing out an app but it only uses PL seriously wtf is wrong with them the number of people using that is tiny.

2 things to note here:

1) A matched play points one is coming later
2) You don't know how many people use them. No one ,not even, Gw does.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I feel like, once you want to have your index, your codex, and chapter approved just to figure out what all your stuff costs, "point changes in a FAQ would be points in too many places" just isn't very persuasive. We're already past the point where everyone should just be using battlescribe or whatever.

I like making my lists by hand.

Now, I think Ynnari is stupid by fluff, and an even worse idea in terms of gameplay mechanics, but they are a legitimate faction in 40k. In order to play a Ynnari army at this point (beyond a Supreme Command detachment of nothing more than 3 unique characters), a player would potentially require the Xenos 1 index, a Craftworld Eldar codex, a Dark Eldar codex, and Chapter Approved. Nevermind the upcoming Harlequins codex, or the inevitable Ynnari codex. At that point, you're looking at 6 books just to play one army. If GW keeps up this sloppiness with Chapter Approved 2018, we could potentially take it up to 7.

This is not sustainable.

Neronoxx wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Flyrants are criminally undercosted right now. A winged daemon prince is 180. A flyrant costs close to the same amount but can do a bunch of shooting, cast 2 powers, has more wounds, has a 4++ instead of a 5++, moves farther, and can deep strike without using 2 CPs, and is T7 instead of T6, and is synapse.

And don't enjoy character targetting immunity.

This.

Easily explains the point similarity.

The Thousand Sons DP also can cast 2 powers and has a 4++ save. Additionally, the extra wounds don't matter as the DP enjoys character immunity instead, which is MUCH, MUCH better. Synapse doesn't mean anything in the comparison, it's just a Tyranid thing. So overall what a flyrant has over a DP is shooting and deep striking for free. On the other hand, a DP is much more deadly in close combat (unless you kit the flyrant for hth but then it can't shoot so...) and can select his powers from 3 different tables, not just one. A DP has access to amazing spells, while the tyranid powers are nothing to write home about. Also a DP has a reroll 1's to hit aura, which the Flyrant does not and a DP using the index warp pistol can also shoot.

The Flyrant really is not that overpowered. The quad devourers are. So either increasing their points or increasing the cost of the wings should do the trick. But walking tyrants with their silly Heavy Venom cannon (of which they can only hold one) should not have to be punished.

Also, for people who want a flyrant 0-1 limit, you have to question what HQs are left for the Tyranids. A tervigon is useless in matched play. Broodlord and Tyranid Prime are extremely overcosted and are only useful in very tailored lists spamming their respective troop choice. A neurothrope is good and all, but you can only have that many spells known with your one psychic lore. With 6 spells in total and each HQ knowing 2, besides your single hive Tyrant you have space for 2 Neurothropes before you run out of spells to use with your 70pt HQ which is completely useless outside the psychic phase.

hobojebus wrote:
They are bringing out an app but it only uses PL seriously wtf is wrong with them the number of people using that is tiny.

The reason PL is coming first is because the army builder they bought (?) only uses PL. They have said points are coming.

I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

To be honest, it depends on what army you play. If every army had the same options and upgrades for similar PL units then PL would be absolutely fine.

But as it stands you get some armies who can have...say, 1-2 heavy/special weapons and a sergeant upgrade in a PL X unit...where other armies can upgrade every single member of the unit with half a dozen things. In points games that is reeled in heavily so to stop things like Arquebus or thunder hammer spam being everywhere for free. In PL games...well, advantage either goes to whoever has the most spare models/units for their army to allow them to go OTT with upgrades for free or little Timmy who built his squad out of the box like a clusterfeth.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

To be honest, it depends on what army you play. If every army had the same options and upgrades for similar PL units then PL would be absolutely fine.

But as it stands you get some armies who can have...say, 1-2 heavy/special weapons and a sergeant upgrade in a PL X unit...where other armies can upgrade every single member of the unit with half a dozen things. In points games that is reeled in heavily so to stop things like Arquebus or thunder hammer spam being everywhere for free. In PL games...well, advantage either goes to whoever has the most spare models/units for their army to allow them to go OTT with upgrades for free or little Timmy who built his squad out of the box like a clusterfeth.

In the case of what happens locally, the part that stops them is that they constantly claim they're "prepping for events" and thus "need to use points".

Anything that isn't points they automatically think will be useless to them. It's grand!

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

To be honest, it depends on what army you play. If every army had the same options and upgrades for similar PL units then PL would be absolutely fine.

But as it stands you get some armies who can have...say, 1-2 heavy/special weapons and a sergeant upgrade in a PL X unit...where other armies can upgrade every single member of the unit with half a dozen things. In points games that is reeled in heavily so to stop things like Arquebus or thunder hammer spam being everywhere for free. In PL games...well, advantage either goes to whoever has the most spare models/units for their army to allow them to go OTT with upgrades for free or little Timmy who built his squad out of the box like a clusterfeth.

I hear that a lot. Have yet to see in practice this all thunderhammer spam people claim would infest PL games.

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

To be honest, it depends on what army you play. If every army had the same options and upgrades for similar PL units then PL would be absolutely fine.

But as it stands you get some armies who can have...say, 1-2 heavy/special weapons and a sergeant upgrade in a PL X unit...where other armies can upgrade every single member of the unit with half a dozen things. In points games that is reeled in heavily so to stop things like Arquebus or thunder hammer spam being everywhere for free. In PL games...well, advantage either goes to whoever has the most spare models/units for their army to allow them to go OTT with upgrades for free or little Timmy who built his squad out of the box like a clusterfeth.

I hear that a lot. Have yet to see in practice this all thunderhammer spam people claim would infest PL games.

Well,

Take two units of rubric marines. Make them 20 strong each. they cost the same PL. One unit with boltguns and gets upgraded with 2 Soulreaper cannons for a total of 426 pts. The second unit gets warp flamers in every model and now costs 662 pts. These are two entries from the same army codex and the same unit, at the same unit size. How would anyone be able to balance something like this?

PL was introduced because GW wanted the 8th edition very easy to play for beginners. The 20 pages rulebook confirms that.

With PL you can build an army in zero time. And a beginner can assemble his/her models like he/she prefers without checking how much the upgrades cost or deciding what is better or more efficient points wise. That's the purpose of PL.

The intention of GW was to design a faster and simpler version of the game, I'm not sure if they managed to do that though, even with PL

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

To be honest, it depends on what army you play. If every army had the same options and upgrades for similar PL units then PL would be absolutely fine.

But as it stands you get some armies who can have...say, 1-2 heavy/special weapons and a sergeant upgrade in a PL X unit...where other armies can upgrade every single member of the unit with half a dozen things. In points games that is reeled in heavily so to stop things like Arquebus or thunder hammer spam being everywhere for free. In PL games...well, advantage either goes to whoever has the most spare models/units for their army to allow them to go OTT with upgrades for free or little Timmy who built his squad out of the box like a clusterfeth.

I hear that a lot. Have yet to see in practice this all thunderhammer spam people claim would infest PL games.

I have. I used to enjoy PL but we had a couple people who started abusing the system and taking squads with every upgrade available and it got ridiculous. A lot of people followed suit to be competitive and eventually we collectively agreed that it had went too far and switched to points.

PL is good for blind pick up games, so definitely has it's place.

But like any system, it's open to abuse. Doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed.

PL have their uses, but no one needs armybuiler for them. Adding couple of small numbers is not something that really requires an app.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

To be honest, it depends on what army you play. If every army had the same options and upgrades for similar PL units then PL would be absolutely fine.

But as it stands you get some armies who can have...say, 1-2 heavy/special weapons and a sergeant upgrade in a PL X unit...where other armies can upgrade every single member of the unit with half a dozen things. In points games that is reeled in heavily so to stop things like Arquebus or thunder hammer spam being everywhere for free. In PL games...well, advantage either goes to whoever has the most spare models/units for their army to allow them to go OTT with upgrades for free or little Timmy who built his squad out of the box like a clusterfeth.

I hear that a lot. Have yet to see in practice this all thunderhammer spam people claim would infest PL games.

I have. I used to enjoy PL but we had a couple people who started abusing the system and taking squads with every upgrade available and it got ridiculous. A lot of people followed suit to be competitive and eventually we collectively agreed that it had went too far and switched to points.

Yup, that's the problem with PL; and some factions can abuse it more than others. What my local community did to somewhat mitigate this issue was to apply a zero tolerance WYSIWYG rule.

The problem I have with power levels is they usually work out to be pricier than mere points. I can fit more units into a 2000 point list than I can a 100 PL list.

That said, I hope whatever HQ nerf GW works into the FAQ only applies to points. It would be another way to differentiate between the two systems

 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem I have with power levels is they usually work out to be pricier than mere points. I can fit more units into a 2000 point list than I can a 100 PL list.

Mainly because 40K currently by and large favours keeping units cheap, especially troops, etc.. filling detachments for CP and getting bodies on the board.

Which is why PL is usually a very enjoyable game, if you don't build armies to abuse it and "just play with the miniatures". It allows you to bring lots of funny stuff you rarely see these days. Tac Squads with Plasma Cannons, Terminators with Chainfists and Cyclone, a variety of fancy upgrades on vehicles, etc.., all the bling that is sadly overpriced in 40K, by and large, compared to maximising bodies/units outside of units with very specific purposes.

I know I'll catch some flak for this because competitive players sometimes do not care about the narrative and there is the popular thought that the narrative should not influence rules, but the reality is that the narrative does influence rules and no amount of petulant whining, bitching or attacking me will change that; so...

Limiting the Hive Tyrant to one per detachment makes sense from a narrative aspect as well as a rules aspect. HQ units that are very powerful and/or shouldn't make up an entire army of just themselves are generally limited to one per army (e.g. a SM Chapter Master) or one per detachment (e.g. a Tau Commander) or even limited such that they can only be included if another unit is present (e.g. Court of the Archon). A Hive Tyrant (wings or no wings) falls into this category.

The same limitation needs to be placed on a lot of HQ units throughout all factions. 8th edition has devolved into Hero-hammer and is becoming a lot less fun to play because of it.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem I have with power levels is they usually work out to be pricier than mere points. I can fit more units into a 2000 point list than I can a 100 PL list.

That said, I hope whatever HQ nerf GW works into the FAQ only applies to points. It would be another way to differentiate between the two systems

Power Levels are basically designed to be the 'maximum' cost that a unit could conceivably be for all of its upgrades. Or at least that was the impression that GW was giving at launch.

oni wrote:Limiting the Hive Tyrant to one per detachment makes sense from a narrative aspect as well as a rules aspect. HQ units that are very powerful and/or shouldn't make up an entire army of just themselves are generally limited to one per army (e.g. a SM Chapter Master) or one per detachment (e.g. a Tau Commander) or even limited such that they can only be included if another unit is present (e.g. Court of the Archon). A Hive Tyrant (wings or no wings) falls into this category.

The same limitation needs to be placed on a lot of HQ units throughout all factions. 8th edition has devolved into Hero-hammer and is becoming a lot less fun to play because of it.

I agree with your sentiment but until more options are given or the Detachments get altered a bit, I just can't see this being a viable solution.
Marine Chapter Masters require you to have a Captain and then you use a Stratagem to make them a Chapter Master. That's a Good Solution IMO.
Tau Commander's change was a bit heavyhanded given the lack of "lesser" HQs equipped in Suits and the fact that Shadowsun and Farsight have the "Commander" keyword as well. This one hurts quite a bit when trying to do anything larger than a Battalion. If we'd gotten a Shas'vre option like we had in years past I could see it being a nice requirement there.


With Guard? I just can't ever see myself agreeing to that restriction. Orders are key to how the army functions, they only affect a single unit per Order, etc--that spamming of Officers becomes critical for actually issuing Orders.
Rework the Vox-Caster so that it becomes an Officer issuing an order issues the Order to everyone with/near a Vox-Caster? I could see myself being a little bit less opposed to trying a restriction like that.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm not convinced PL is only used by a tiny number of people. I think the kind of people who post on web forums and are part of regular store groups might use points a lot more than PL, but I think a lot of kitchen table players use power level.

More than this, a lot of the people who are regulars at my local shop use PL more than points. It can be used as a way to keep some of the sillier powergaming nonsense out since those individuals only want to play points rather than PL.

To be honest, it depends on what army you play. If every army had the same options and upgrades for similar PL units then PL would be absolutely fine.

But as it stands you get some armies who can have...say, 1-2 heavy/special weapons and a sergeant upgrade in a PL X unit...where other armies can upgrade every single member of the unit with half a dozen things. In points games that is reeled in heavily so to stop things like Arquebus or thunder hammer spam being everywhere for free. In PL games...well, advantage either goes to whoever has the most spare models/units for their army to allow them to go OTT with upgrades for free or little Timmy who built his squad out of the box like a clusterfeth.

I hear that a lot. Have yet to see in practice this all thunderhammer spam people claim would infest PL games.

Well,

Take two units of rubric marines. Make them 20 strong each. they cost the same PL. One unit with boltguns and gets upgraded with 2 Soulreaper cannons for a total of 426 pts. The second unit gets warp flamers in every model and now costs 662 pts. These are two entries from the same army codex and the same unit, at the same unit size. How would anyone be able to balance something like this?

And you see this sort of maxed upgrades in your pl games? Or are these just theoretical complains? I have zero interest in theory. Only practice. Never seen that in pl games in practicex have you?

PL are not maxed equipped units gw said median which was exceptionally unhelpful because they have zero clue what they considered the average load out to be.

Some armies can abuse PL some can not that's why it's a bad system.

When upgrades cost points it's a more level playing field, though far from perfect.

 oni wrote:
I know I'll catch some flak for this because competitive players sometimes do not care about the narrative and there is the popular thought that the narrative should not influence rules, but the reality is that the narrative does influence rules and no amount of petulant whining, bitching or attacking me will change that; so...

Limiting the Hive Tyrant to one per detachment makes sense from a narrative aspect as well as a rules aspect. HQ units that are very powerful and/or shouldn't make up an entire army of just themselves are generally limited to one per army (e.g. a SM Chapter Master) or one per detachment (e.g. a Tau Commander) or even limited such that they can only be included if another unit is present (e.g. Court of the Archon). A Hive Tyrant (wings or no wings) falls into this category.

The same limitation needs to be placed on a lot of HQ units throughout all factions. 8th edition has devolved into Hero-hammer and is becoming a lot less fun to play because of it.

Only makes sense narrativelw. Game mechanic wise doesn't fix problem. They could fiw it and not have limit but theydecided not to fix issue. And if they apply limit too much it's going to hurt balancb


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
PL are not maxed equipped units gw said median which was exceptionally unhelpful because they have zero clue what they considered the average load out to be.

Some armies can abuse PL some can not that's why it's a bad system.

When upgrades cost points it's a more level playing field, though far from perfect.

Both systems result is unbalanced junk.you do not play 40k if you want even tininiest sliver of balance

hobojebus wrote:
Some armies can abuse PL some can not that's why it's a bad system.

Has anyone actually encountered abuse of PL? It seems like armies don't do it, but players do. And if you don't intend to do it, it's likely not going to happen. Gaming any system requires stopping and asking "how can I get an advantage here" and that's probably not a common mindset among those using PL.

The only time I could see this actually happening is if someone had an ax to grind and wanted to prove how possible abuse could be with PL. And self fulfilling prophecies like that are no proof at all.

PL seems to be working fine for the people who use it.

 Chamberlain wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Some armies can abuse PL some can not that's why it's a bad system.

Has anyone actually encountered abuse of PL? It seems like armies don't do it, but players do. And if you don't intend to do it, it's likely not going to happen. Gaming any system requires stopping and asking "how can I get an advantage here" and that's probably not a common mindset among those using PL.

The only time I could see this actually happening is if someone had an ax to grind and wanted to prove how possible abuse could be with PL. And self fulfilling prophecies like that are no proof at all.

PL seems to be working fine for the people who use it.

Yeah it legitimately works fine for people who want to use it.
It just somehow magically doesn't work for people who don't want it to.
It's like saying boxing is too dangerous because the other guy could be trying to kill you.

 Chamberlain wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Some armies can abuse PL some can not that's why it's a bad system.

Has anyone actually encountered abuse of PL? It seems like armies don't do it, but players do. And if you don't intend to do it, it's likely not going to happen. Gaming any system requires stopping and asking "how can I get an advantage here" and that's probably not a common mindset among those using PL.

The only time I could see this actually happening is if someone had an ax to grind and wanted to prove how possible abuse could be with PL. And self fulfilling prophecies like that are no proof at all.

PL seems to be working fine for the people who use it.

Precisely my point.

I have been using PL. I have been in league where it used.

Games have been actually pretty darn close...And lopsided games were due to a) first in scenario that REALLY screwed me up(when enemy can start within 6" of your troops if I don't pull back seriously from my DZ line...To get out some turn 1 charge protection needed pretty much hugging my table edge...And scenario objective requires you to go THROUGH enemy army...Yup that's easy to do for guard vs dark eldar!) b) opponent having effectively brought knife to a gunfight. Beginner player with random mix&match of primaris marines not really suited against vehicles vs my tank heavy IG army...Not sure point differences but even assuming I had like 1700 pts vs his 1500 pts or something(and that's fairly pessimistic scenario) I SERIOUSLY doubt extra 200 pts would have helped him...It was shooting turkeys in shooting gallery. As it was I had brought perfect anti-his-list along. Only thing that kept him having ANY chance was scenario that basically meant I had to hunt down his forces which resulted in his black templars running away and me chasing them across the board. Not easy for IG! As it was I'm confident that assuming my list was 1500 in regular point system he could have fielded 2000 pts in same style and I would have been in advantage. And if the scenario 50-50 roll off for roles had been reversed it would have been game over from the get-go...Hell on that case if his list was expanded on similar style 2500 would have been beatable!).

But mostly it's been close games where results are on the knife edge.

It's different system which has different use. You can abuse points if you want as well. If you play with TFG abusers you are in for miserable time either way.

I haven't found PL to be particularly prone to abuse. Taking all the available upgrades on most units wasn't a problem. The reason I stopped using it is basically the exact opposite - it feels like a huge penalty if you don't just pile everything on.

My Leman Russes just have a battle cannon and a heavy bolter. Put them up against some other Russes with Executioners, lascannons and plasma cannon sponsons, and it's no contest even though the PL is the same.

Basically, that's the big problem with PL. It's great for units with a narrow cost-band of available options, and absolutely terrible for units that could cost twice or three times as much as their basic loadout if they're fully loaded. I think the system has a good idea at its core, it's just not quite fully baked yet. Maybe next edition.

Nope. You can dress it as much as you like, but in the end of the day people will be taking advantage of the limits that the game allows them to.

It is never the players' fault for following bad rules. "Has anyone encountered abuse of PL?" does not make any sense. PL is not the primary game mode in the competitive settings hence why people don't encounter them often. but this discussion suggests the PL as an actual alternative mode to use in tournaments. And once you do that, you will see the powercreep in all its glory. And again, it's not the players' fault. It's ALWAYS the game's fault. not only in warhammer, everywhere. If GW wanted to be cool about PL, they should have given each and every unit equal number/quality of upgrades. Only they don't. The whole tyranid army can have adrenal glands and toxin sacs upgrades for free (and that's before we even go to the armaments), while the obliterators have zero upgrades available to them. So why would I ever want to play obliterators against tyranids in a PL game? Or really play obliterators in any PL game?

PL is used at the moment in FLGS and garage games, usually from people who just have the models glued this way and don't want to bother remodelling or fighting over wysiwyg. This should not be your demographic though when you want to promote PL as a legitimate way to play the game everywhere.