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Descent of angels : Use this stratagem before a charge roll with a BLOOD ANGELS JUMP PACK unit that was set up on the battlefield earlier that turn. Roll 3D6 to determine the units charge distance instead of 2D6.

Let's say DC wants to charge. Lemartes is in 6" (he allows DC to re-roll failed charge rolls). If i make it with two dice there is no need to spend 2CP for DoA. If i don't make it, I use DoA for lemartes charge re-roll. The stratagem says to use it before making a charge roll. A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll, isn't it ?

 p5freak wrote:
Descent of angels : Use this stratagem before a charge roll with a BLOOD ANGELS JUMP PACK unit that was set up on the battlefield earlier that turn. Roll 3D6 to determine the units charge distance instead of 2D6.

Let's say DC wants to charge. Lemartes is in 6" (he allows DC to re-roll failed charge rolls). If i make it with two dice there is no need to spend 2CP for DoA. If i don't make it, I use DoA for lemartes charge re-roll. The stratagem says to use it before making a charge roll. A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll, isn't it ?

You have to use this before any charge rolls are made. You would have to use this as you declare the charge but before any rolls are made. If you roll for the initial charge on 2D6 you can;t then use it on a re-roll because you can;t re-roll the dice you never roll'd to begin with.

Hope this helps.

It literally says to use it before a charge roll. A re-roll doesn't count as making a whole new roll. You can't do what you are suggesting, not even though shifty wording.

Having rerolled and failed the said reroll would imply that a charge roll has been made for that particular unit already. So, no.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

You have to use this before any charge rolls are made. You would have to use this as you declare the charge but before any rolls are made. If you roll for the initial charge on 2D6 you can;t then use it on a re-roll because you can;t re-roll the dice you never roll'd to begin with.

Hope this helps.

The stratagem doesnt say that i have to use it before any charge rolls are made. All it says is before a charge roll. A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll. All i'm doing is adding one dice.

 skchsan wrote:
Having rerolled and failed the said reroll would imply that a charge roll has been made for that particular unit already. So, no.

I am not re-rolling a failed re-roll.

And like I said, re-rolling a charge roll is not "before" a charge roll.

 p5freak wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

You have to use this before any charge rolls are made. You would have to use this as you declare the charge but before any rolls are made. If you roll for the initial charge on 2D6 you can;t then use it on a re-roll because you can;t re-roll the dice you never roll'd to begin with.

Hope this helps.

The stratagem doesnt say that i have to use it before any charge rolls are made. All it says is before a charge roll. A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll. All i'm doing is adding one dice.

 skchsan wrote:
Having rerolled and failed the said reroll would imply that a charge roll has been made for that particular unit already. So, no.

I am not re-rolling a failed re-roll.

I understand what you are saying, but that's not the structure of the game or stratagems. You cannot activate an ability or stratagem once the process has begun. This is a stratagem to use at the stat of the charge phase. Once you have declared charges and made rolls you cna;t use it nay more.

Similar to DA weapons of dark age, if I roll the hits and want to use weapons of dakr age I can;t as I have already made rolls for that unit. They have to be used before the process is begun.

If however you believe your process to be correct by all means speak it through with your opponent. But if you were my opponent and tried doing that I wouldn't let you.

I won;'t tell you how to play I'm suggesting the structure of stratagems, you can either play the obvious way it's to be used and have really fun competitive games where your opponent is cheering your rolls to get that amazing slug fest combat going. Or be TFG and try and do stuff like that and end up with salty games and people will end up packing their stuff on you.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but that's not the structure of the game or stratagems. You cannot activate an ability or stratagem once the process has begun. This is a stratagem to use at the stat of the charge phase. Once you have declared charges and made rolls you cna;t use it nay more.

I can use the reroll a dice stratagem anytime i like. Even during the process. I can interrupt my opponents CC attacks with this 2CP stratagem which name eludes me right now. DoA doesnt say that i have to use it before any charge rolls are made.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Similar to DA weapons of dark age, if I roll the hits and want to use weapons of dakr age I can;t as I have already made rolls for that unit. They have to be used before the process is begun.

That is a different story. The stratagem clearly says to use it just before a DA unit from your army attacks in the shooting phase.

 p5freak wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but that's not the structure of the game or stratagems. You cannot activate an ability or stratagem once the process has begun. This is a stratagem to use at the stat of the charge phase. Once you have declared charges and made rolls you cna;t use it nay more.

I can use the reroll a dice stratagem anytime i like. Even during the process. I can interrupt my opponents CC attacks with this 2CP stratagem which name eludes me right now. DoA doesnt say that i have to use it before any charge rolls are made.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Similar to DA weapons of dark age, if I roll the hits and want to use weapons of dakr age I can;t as I have already made rolls for that unit. They have to be used before the process is begun.

That is a different story. The stratagem clearly says to use it just before a DA unit from your army attacks in the shooting phase.

Right you're clearly trying to get someone to agree with you.

I am going to make this very simple and clear.

You cannot do what you are trying to do. If you do try and do this people will tell you no at the table. If you argue you will end up with very unpleasent games.

I know you will disagree because you want to be able to do this. But i said no and the other person said no. You still want a yes. So all I cna suggets is try it at the table top and see what happens.

"It doesn't say I can't" makes you automatically lose any rules argument.

This is from your OP - Descent of angels : Use this stratagem before a charge roll with a BLOOD ANGELS JUMP PACK unit that was set up on the battlefield earlier that turn. Roll 3D6 to determine the units charge distance instead of 2D6. (emphasis added by me).

This is even conceding your point about interrupting a sequence. You are attempting to use this stratagy before a re-roll not a roll. A re-roll comes after a roll.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

You have to use this before any charge rolls are made. You would have to use this as you declare the charge but before any rolls are made. If you roll for the initial charge on 2D6 you can;t then use it on a re-roll because you can;t re-roll the dice you never roll'd to begin with.

Hope this helps.

The stratagem doesnt say that i have to use it before any charge rolls are made. All it says is before a charge roll. A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll. All i'm doing is adding one dice.

 skchsan wrote:
Having rerolled and failed the said reroll would imply that a charge roll has been made for that particular unit already. So, no.

I am not re-rolling a failed re-roll.

I understand what you are saying, but that's not the structure of the game or stratagems. You cannot activate an ability or stratagem once the process has begun. This is a stratagem to use at the stat of the charge phase. Once you have declared charges and made rolls you cna;t use it nay more.

Similar to DA weapons of dark age, if I roll the hits and want to use weapons of dakr age I can;t as I have already made rolls for that unit. They have to be used before the process is begun.

If however you believe your process to be correct by all means speak it through with your opponent. But if you were my opponent and tried doing that I wouldn't let you.

I won;'t tell you how to play I'm suggesting the structure of stratagems, you can either play the obvious way it's to be used and have really fun competitive games where your opponent is cheering your rolls to get that amazing slug fest combat going. Or be TFG and try and do stuff like that and end up with salty games and people will end up packing their stuff on you.

Your ultimate conclusion may be right, but I think the process you're using to get there is completely wrong. You're also acting way more like TFG than OP with your rampant condescension in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And like I said, re-rolling a charge roll is not "before" a charge roll.

I am surprised this is the answer you gave. Can you walk me through this? A re-roll is still a 'roll' in the literal sense. He is literally rolling the day, even if it is for the second time. RAW, that seems to be all the Stratagem wants, right? Where is there a RAW difference?

If you want to claim a re-roll is the same as a roll, then I can claim that all my dice have 6's on each side, or that it doesn't define exactly what type of "inch" is used.

It's one of the unspoken axioms needed for the game to work at all.

A simple difference from the rules is a roll can be re-rolled but you can not re-roll a re-roll.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If you want to claim a re-roll is the same as a roll, then I can claim that all my dice have 6's on each side, or that it doesn't define exactly what type of "inch" is used.

It's one of the unspoken axioms needed for the game to work at all.

Now I'm double surprises I'm talking to BCB! Okay, fair premise, but why is this particular issue needed to work well? This 6's are obvious, but this one not so much to me. Game seems to work fine regardless how you do it.

For instance, when re-rolling overcharged plasma, we still consider a '1' on the re-roll as nuking the plasma bearer despite the plasma gun saying on a 'roll' of a 1 not a 'roll or re-roll'. They're the same thing there. Wouldn't this open the door to ignoring plasma 1's on re-roll?

Because the rules for re-rolls tell you what to do. Re-rolls can cause the result of the roll to change, but a re-roll is not the same action as a roll.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because the rules for re-rolls tell you what to do. Re-rolls can cause the result of the roll to change, but a re-roll is not the same action as a roll.

The rules dont say that re-rolling a roll changes the roll to a re-rolling roll. Its still a roll.

Re-rolls

Some rules allow you to
re-roll a dice roll, which
means you get to roll
some or all of the dice
again.

 p5freak wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

You have to use this before any charge rolls are made. You would have to use this as you declare the charge but before any rolls are made. If you roll for the initial charge on 2D6 you can;t then use it on a re-roll because you can;t re-roll the dice you never roll'd to begin with.

Hope this helps.

The stratagem doesnt say that i have to use it before any charge rolls are made. All it says is before a charge roll. A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll. All i'm doing is adding one dice.

 skchsan wrote:
Having rerolled and failed the said reroll would imply that a charge roll has been made for that particular unit already. So, no.

I am not re-rolling a failed re-roll.

It may say use before a charge roll, but it does not say use before a charge reroll. You have to use it before the initial charge. You can't fail the the charge roll then claim you're using it on a reroll. It would have to be in effect for the initial roll as well in order to be applicable to a reroll.

Dude, just no. Find another gimmick. Forget about this one. You are 100% wrong.

 p5freak wrote:
Descent of angels : Use this stratagem before a charge roll with a BLOOD ANGELS JUMP PACK unit that was set up on the battlefield earlier that turn. Roll 3D6 to determine the units charge distance instead of 2D6.

Let's say DC wants to charge. Lemartes is in 6" (he allows DC to re-roll failed charge rolls). If i make it with two dice there is no need to spend 2CP for DoA. If i don't make it, I use DoA for lemartes charge re-roll. The stratagem says to use it before making a charge roll. A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll, isn't it ?

It says before making a charge roll, not a charge re-roll.

 doctortom wrote:

It may say use before a charge roll, but it does not say use before a charge reroll. You have to use it before the initial charge. You can't fail the the charge roll then claim you're using it on a reroll. It would have to be in effect for the initial roll as well in order to be applicable to a reroll.

Re-rolls

Some rules allow you to
re-roll a dice roll, which
means you get to roll
some or all of the dice
again.

Re-rolling a dice roll doesnt change the dice roll to a re-roll, its still a dice roll done again.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It may say use before a charge roll, but it does not say use before a charge reroll. You have to use it before the initial charge. You can't fail the the charge roll then claim you're using it on a reroll. It would have to be in effect for the initial roll as well in order to be applicable to a reroll.

Re-rolls

Some rules allow you to
re-roll a dice roll, which
means you get to roll
some or all of the dice
again.

Re-rolling a dice roll doesnt change the dice roll to a re-roll, its still a dice roll done again.

May I make a suggestion? Check with a few TOs to see how they'd rule it. That at this point is probably your best chance to be able to do this because I don't think you've found a sympathetic audience here.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because the rules for re-rolls tell you what to do. Re-rolls can cause the result of the roll to change, but a re-roll is not the same action as a roll.

I can't find that. Any reference? The quoted rule for rerolls in this thread literally says you make the roll again. So since you are making the roll again why doesn't it count as a roll?

I trust your interpretations a lot so I'm willing to take the result of this one as you say it, but I'm really not seeing how we get there.

This thread is just one big bait piece. I'll leave, because I know how touchy the moderation is here, with the comment that this is absolutely not permitted even with flowery language interpretation.

Between this thread and a couple of others, it looks like every rule book will have to include a dictionary defining every word and every assumption that is made by the game designers. Oh and then it will also have to say whether it is using British English or American English or another form of the English language so that it doesn't get parsed that way either.

 p5freak wrote:
A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll, isn't it ?

So let me get this straight:

1. DC unit charges, rolls 2d6, fails the charge.
2. You elect to re-roll the failed charge via Lemartes's ability
3. You declare you will use DoA stratagem to roll 3d6 instead of re-rolling 2d6

If you take a look, you're not re-rolling the dice, but rather creating a new set of charge rolls.
You are now "re-rolling" the two dice used for the previous 2d6 charge, then adding a new dice to roll the 3rd dice of the 3d6 as governed by DoA.

What you're saying essentially is "Lemartes gives me the ability to declare a new charge at the same unit if in case the first charge fails."

This is distinctly different from "Lemartes gives me the ability re-roll failed charges"

The stratagem is clear on the point that it needs to be declared "before a charge roll is made." The phrase doesn't encompass your claim of "before a (re-rolled) charge roll is made."

 skchsan wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll, isn't it ?

So let me get this straight:

1. DC unit charges, rolls 2d6, fails the charge.
2. You elect to re-roll the failed charge via Lemartes's ability
3. You declare you will use DoA stratagem to roll 3d6 instead of re-rolling 2d6

If you take a look, you're not re-rolling the dice, but rather creating a new set of charge rolls.
You are now "re-rolling" the two dice used for the previous 2d6 charge, then adding a new dice to roll the 3rd dice of the 3d6 as governed by DoA.

What you're saying essentially is "Lemartes gives me the ability to declare a new charge at the same unit if in case the first charge fails."

This is distinctly different from "Lemartes gives me the ability re-roll failed charges"

Correct, but its not a new charge, its a failed charge re-roll with one more dice.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

It may say use before a charge roll, but it does not say use before a charge reroll. You have to use it before the initial charge. You can't fail the the charge roll then claim you're using it on a reroll. It would have to be in effect for the initial roll as well in order to be applicable to a reroll.

Re-rolls

Some rules allow you to
re-roll a dice roll, which
means you get to roll
some or all of the dice
again.

Re-rolling a dice roll doesnt change the dice roll to a re-roll, its still a dice roll done again.

You've already started the charge rolling process with the first roll, so it certainly isn't "before" making a charge roll. Let's look at what you quoted. "roll some or all of the dice again". That means you've already rolled, so it isn't before rolling; you are in the process of rolling and rolling again.

Also, you also quoted "means you get to roll some or all of the dice again". It doesn't say you get to add extra dice to roll when you roll again.

You just can't legally do what you're suggesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Between this thread and a couple of others, it looks like every rule book will have to include a dictionary defining every word and every assumption that is made by the game designers. Oh and then it will also have to say whether it is using British English or American English or another form of the English language so that it doesn't get parsed that way either.

No, it means GW will be able to sell a completely different book to us, "The GW Dictionary". Put a Space Marines symbol on the cover and double the normal price! $$$$$

 p5freak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A re-rolled charge roll is still a charge roll, isn't it ?

So let me get this straight:

1. DC unit charges, rolls 2d6, fails the charge.
2. You elect to re-roll the failed charge via Lemartes's ability
3. You declare you will use DoA stratagem to roll 3d6 instead of re-rolling 2d6

If you take a look, you're not re-rolling the dice, but rather creating a new set of charge rolls.
You are now "re-rolling" the two dice used for the previous 2d6 charge, then adding a new dice to roll the 3rd dice of the 3d6 as governed by DoA.

What you're saying essentially is "Lemartes gives me the ability to declare a new charge at the same unit if in case the first charge fails."

This is distinctly different from "Lemartes gives me the ability re-roll failed charges"

Correct, but its not a new charge, its a failed charge re-roll with one more dice.

If you're rolling 3d6 as a "re-roll" for 2d6, its not the same charge. It's a new one.

Either you declare DoA before Lemartes's re-roll and get to re-roll all three d6's or you use the stratagem after and re-roll 2 die.

I think the key take away here is that:
[re-roll of a charge roll] =/= [charge roll]

re-rolled charge roll is distinctively "re-rolled charge roll" while a charge roll is distinctive "charge roll"

Even if the roll & charge roll are separate distinct rolls, you would need to use it before the first charge roll. As a charge roll has already taken place, you cannot use the stratagem.

If you had a unit that was capable of making 500 separate charge rolls, you could not use this stratagem after making even one of them. Because it says before making a charge roll. You have already made one. Therefore the condition is invalidated.

The stratagem references a singular charge roll. Simply: Before the reroll, regardless of how you would classify the reroll, have you made a charge roll? The answer is yes, so you cannot use DoA.

And, let me add, DUH.