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How about the argument from this perspective.
The charge is a 2d6 roll.
Lemartes ability allows that to be re rolled, 2d6
The stratagem says to make a charge with 3d6, it does not say to make a charge roll and add an additional d6. (While that is in effect what it is doing, defining the number of dice to buy used as opposed to a number of dice to be added or removed from the dice pool is significant) This fact makes the stratagem based roll an entirely new roll unto itself. As such, you would no longer be making a re roll from the original charge.

Let me see if I'm understanding you. I make a charge roll using 2d6 and fail. I then use a strategy card that says to play it before I make a charge roll. I can then claim that the first charge roll doesn't matter because I'm now using 3d6 instead of 2? Is that your stance? If I fail the 3d6 do I still get to re-roll the 2d6 roll that I made due to Lemartes? If I fail that again do I get to re-roll the 3d6 since that was a whole new, and different roll?

I'm sorry but your theory just doesn't work under any interpretation of the rules.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Your logic is flawed. A re-roll is “a roll with conditions, that happens after a roll”, if you need definitions. It is not the same as a roll, due to the extra conditions and the fact it can’t be the first roll. You claim “re-roll=roll=RAW” but it just isn’t, as that misses out important RAW elements. Mechanically, both *look* the same as you roll dice, but rules-wise they simply are not identical.

And we’ve been discussing RAW all along, so the little snark there is unwarranted. Indeed, we’ve been trying to point out the flaws in your claims of RAW, and in the OP’s erroneous idea, it’s just you’re deriding others instead of listening.

You're using a plain meaning definition of re-roll, which would be right except GW supplied us one so it's overriden.

As for the hilarious lash out, snip!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Let me see if I'm understanding you. I make a charge roll using 2d6 and fail. I then use a strategy card that says to play it before I make a charge roll. I can then claim that the first charge roll doesn't matter because I'm now using 3d6 instead of 2? Is that your stance? If I fail the 3d6 do I still get to re-roll the 2d6 roll that I made due to Lemartes? If I fail that again do I get to re-roll the 3d6 since that was a whole new, and different roll?

I'm sorry but your theory just doesn't work under any interpretation of the rules.

Is this addressed to me? Because that's not entirely where I was going.

My previous comment was directed toward ah64pilot5.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
My previous comment was directed toward ah64pilot5.

Fair enough!

They should rename this forum to "You Be Obstinate."

A reroll is not the same as a roll. It was already proven (cannot reroll a reroll).

I think this thread is done.

 Marmatag wrote:
They should rename this forum to "You Be Obstinate."

A knife that cuts two ways, for sure.

A reroll is not the same as a roll. It was already proven (cannot reroll a reroll).

Actually, it wasn't. That's kind of why a discussion happened, unless you didn't meant objectively, but in that case it's not conclusive either.

I think this thread is done.

And yet you saw fit to post it back to life when it was happily sinking to the bottom.

I must hate my life.

I was curious and read through some of this, but it does bring up the interesting plasma discussion, again.

If I die on a hit roll of 1, and not a hit reroll of 1... if I reroll a 1 into a 1...

Which also bears asking: does a roll of a 1 on the hit mean you die... and the reroll only mean you may actually hit before killing yourself?

I mean if a roll and a reroll are distinctly different things, then it would be distinctly worded as "any to hit rolls (or rerolls) of 1..."

I hate to bring it back around, but I want to hear how this is different than the situation first presented:

A roll happens. Success or failure.
Something changes the parameters of the roll triggering because of success or failure.
A reroll occurs.
The reroll replaces the result of the original roll.

I still think the reroll is of the type the original roll was, so that way a failed 1 roll on a plasma hit is rerolled with a new hit roll that overrides the original roll (so it never happened).

The timing on the OP's question is all sorts of interesting, but pretending it is an easy yes or no because of roll vs reroll is not exactly fair because of the implications of that interpretation carries over into EVERYTHING covered by rerolls.

The plasma rule doesn't come into play until after re-rolls (if any) since the re-roll results replace the original result.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The plasma rule doesn't come into play until after re-rolls (if any) since the re-roll results replace the original result.

That's not what he's proposing and it is a good point he's making so I'll add it here.

If I'm reading him right, what's he's saying is this:

If a re-roll =/= a roll, then plasma dies on a roll of 1 even if you can re-roll, because the plasma rule says roll. All the re-roll does is give the plasma shooter a chance to hit again before being destroyed. Re-rolls and rolls have to be the same thing in order for the plasma shooter to survive his initial roll of 1.

He's right that what we're discussing here could have far ranging applications beyond just this stratagem.

Well It would have far reaching applications if this where a federal court of law, but its not. Instead of spending so much effort on trying to win this argument, think about why you should not win this argument.


Satisfy your own curiosity, but it wont mean much to others at the end of the day.


Back to the topic at hand, a reroll is obviously a roll, but vice versa is not always true. The stratagem is meant to be activated before you roll the attempted charge at all. If you try to activate it on a reroll'd charge it is no longer a valid target.


That's the obvious intent, and also the best way to play it.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Well It would have far reaching applications if this where a federal court of law, but its not. Instead of spending so much effort on trying to win this argument, think about why you should not win this argument.


Satisfy your own curiosity, but it wont mean much to others at the end of the day.

I really wish we had an eye rolling emote.

Anyway, it has implications because most people take the rationale approach and try to, you know, uniformly apply rules of the game rather than make a checkerboard pattern result based on how they feel, what the weather is and what they'd personally like to see.

Back to the topic at hand, a reroll is obviously a roll, but vice versa is not always true. The stratagem is meant to be activated before you roll the attempted charge at all. If you try to activate it on a reroll'd charge it is no longer a valid target.


That's the obvious intent, and also the best way to play it.

Prove it. YMDC Tenet 1: Don't make a statement without backing it up.

Dude, you can’t prove half of what you’ve posted and don’t believe in common sense, so barking “Prove it” isn’t really a good look for you...

I agree that is the obvious intent. Proof: the wording of the rules. There.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Dude, you can’t prove half of what you’ve posted and don’t believe in common sense, so barking “Prove it” isn’t really a good look for you...

I agree that is the obvious intent. Proof: the wording of the rules. There.

I've offered a carefully constructed argument on the wording of the rules and how RAW must be interpreted. This is all proof and supports every line of argument with a direct quotation under 3 pages of scrutiny. So yes, I'd say I proved my end. That doesn't mean people can't disagree with it, but it's proven. Two people, after all, can watch the same event and come to two separate conclusions.

As for your proffer, you are not Eihnlazer so I'm not sure you can speak for him. That was directed to his response.

That said, I've yet to see anything from you about how the wording supports your position. I'm happy to read it if you want to outline it.

You said “roll = re-roll” and the rules say otherwise. Your argument unravelled pages ago. You’re still here tilting at windmills though. It’s *so patently onvious* from the wording of the rule how this should be played, but you and p5freak are determined to keep posting the incorrect take. Have you emailed GW FAQ hotline? It would be a better use of your time, tbh.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You said “roll = re-roll” and the rules say otherwise. Your argument unravelled pages ago. You’re still here tilting at windmills though. It’s *so patently onvious* from the wording of the rule how this should be played, but you and p5freak are determined to keep posting the incorrect take. Have you emailed GW FAQ hotline? It would be a better use of your time, tbh.

This isn't much proof. Go back to pgs. 2 and 3 and consult the RAW provided. You can reference the brief discussion about verbs and gerunds too. The RAW refers to re-rolls specifically as a "roll", thus equating them the same. This provides you quoted RAW to prove the point.

For you to pronounce "the rules say otherwise" is no different than when children proclaim "you're wrong because I said so". Where are the quotes from GW? Where's the RAW? Where's the support for what you say other than your opinion that it's better?

EDIT: As for the unneeded comment about my time, remember, I do this just because I find the discussions fun and relaxing. Firing an e-mail to likely be ignored not so much.

Plus I showed my local players this thread and they, surprisingly, all agreed with phreak. I expected at least one dissent. Anyway, there's no pressing need for further answer in my local world.

Wait... local meta is irrelevant I thought? Basing it on your experiences, etc? ;-) Tsk, tsk.

I demonstrated a roll is not equal to a re-roll using the rules pages ago. I’ve read the whole thread and engaged in it, so the insults to my reasoning and comprehension show you don’t wish an argument in good faith, just to “be right on the internet”. Good luck with that and enjoy your thread about a non-tactic.

roll = re-roll
re-rolls cannot be re-rolled
therefor rolls cannot be rolled

Eureka!
Throwing dice is not allowed in 40k.
/s

I feel like I lost IQ points just reading this thread...

I had truly hoped that YMDC would have been a bit more thoughtful than the typical argument that broke out at tables over silly rules. People could take the time to discuss the merits of the arguments, come up with carefully constructed thoughts that were a bit deeper than a rain puddle.

That's how interesting interactions are found in the game. It seems pretty decent intent to try to save 2 CP by not using the stratagem until after you've failed the roll the 2d6 way.

There is an inherent weakness in the strategy that a 2, 2, 3 still fails and now cannot be rerolled because the 3d6 charge was already a reroll. Not to mention the original charge only has a 9/36 (aka 25%) chance of succeeding.

I know that the initial reaction is apprehension to the thought, but if the failed charge generates a reroll, the reroll MUST be a charge roll (as in what type of roll are we making) as well as a reroll (something tagging the roll as being a reroll and thus not rerollable). The timing of the stratagem says when you make a charge roll do 3d6, I don't think it rightly cares if it is a charge roll or a charge reroll, at the end of the day they are both still a type of charge roll.

Reading into and implying intention is injecting bias with no sort of indication from the writer what THEIR stated intention was. So now it becomes your perception of their intention without anything really to back it up other than saying a reroll is not a roll, thus it is not applicable to the context.

At which point we come back to the plasma quandry:

I fire a Plasmagun at BS 3, I roll a 2. It is a miss. Girly man says: yo, bro, reroll that fail. I reroll that into a 1. Since this reroll is distinct and not a hit roll... my guy doesn't die.

But we all know how literally everyone plays that scenario... he dies.

The reverse is also true.

If a roll a 1 on my plasma shot and kill myself, but my Cupcake Chaptermaster says: hey, reroll that, you poor soul. I reroll it into a 5. My "roll" was still a 1, and my reroll was a 5. If these were distinct, I would land a hit, but I would also die... yet again contrary to how everyone plays it.

So the way everyone plays it is that the first "to hit" roll is totally removed and replaced by a new "to hit" roll (reroll), but this new roll has a modifier saying it cannot be rerolled. Thus the first roll never actually happened, and a "to hit" roll still triggered for overcharged plasma's wording to actually take affect.

The strategy requires that you use it before you roll your charge roll. A charge re-roll is not the same thing. You have already made your charge roll and therefore you can't use the strategy. Also per the OP you are also changing the amount of dice for the re-roll. Most people will say that a re-roll of a roll uses the same amount of dice as the original roll. So, if you try to use the strategy after failing your initial charge roll I'm not even sure you're following the proper re-roll procedure (but that's another can of worms). Per the BRB a re-roll allows you to roll some or all of the dice again. There is no mention of being able to add dice.

Your plasma line is not the same thing. Plasma weapons get hot on hit rolls of a "1". A re-roll allows you the opportunity to change that "1" into something else. The to hit roll is the final result of your roll + your re-roll (if applicable). So the first time you roll a "1" is erased if you use a re-roll and the re-roll result becomes the to hit roll.

 Ordana wrote:
roll = re-roll
re-rolls cannot be re-rolled
therefor rolls cannot be rolled

Eureka!
Throwing dice is not allowed in 40k.
/s

I feel like I lost IQ points just reading this thread...

Actually to be technical if a re-roll is not a roll then you do not kill yourself with overcharged plasma when you re-roll and get a 1, and if you roll a one and re-roll it and get a different number you still kill yourself because the rules state that overcharged plasma slays the model on a roll of one. Which lets be honest, that's not how it works. Edit-didn't see some wording, this is wrong see below.

That being said I do agree that the intent is you cannot use this stratagem with a re-roll.

I think we are better off looking at what they mean when they say before you make a charge roll. This can actually be read and interpreted in two ways.

Interpretation 1: You must use this stratagem before a(any) charge roll is made. This would mean that once you've rolled a charge roll you cannot use this stratagem because you've already rolled a charge roll. You no longer meet the requirements of before.

Interpretation 2: This one is harder to word in a satisfactory way but I'll take a crack at it. This interpretation takes "a charge roll" to mean any charge roll that unit makes regardless if its the first or not.

Neither interpretation is wrong per the English language so RAW can go both ways, however I definitely believe RAI is that you cannot use this stratagem with a re-roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The strategy requires that you use it before you roll your charge roll. A charge re-roll is not the same thing. You have already made your charge roll and therefore you can't use the strategy. Also per the OP you are also changing the amount of dice for the re-roll. Most people will say that a re-roll of a roll uses the same amount of dice as the original roll. So, if you try to use the strategy after failing your initial charge roll I'm not even sure you're following the proper re-roll procedure (but that's another can of worms). Per the BRB a re-roll allows you to roll some or all of the dice again. There is no mention of being able to add dice.

Your plasma line is not the same thing. Plasma weapons get hot on hit rolls of a "1". A re-roll allows you the opportunity to change that "1" into something else. The to hit roll is the final result of your roll + your re-roll (if applicable). So the first time you roll a "1" is erased if you use a re-roll and the re-roll result becomes the to hit roll.

Actually I didn't notice that plasma says hit rolls of 1 so this would be correct when it comes to plasma

Now you dont blow up with overcharged plasma if the reroll is a 1, because a hit reroll is not a hit roll ? Thats ridiculous. A hit reroll is the same as a hit roll. Same applies to a charge reroll, it's still a charge roll.

A re-roll's die/dice replace the original roll's result with their own. Plasma over heats on a hit roll of "1". All that matters is the final result in this instance. It has nothing to do with whether the result came about with a roll or a re-roll.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Wait... local meta is irrelevant I thought? Basing it on your experiences, etc? ;-) Tsk, tsk.

You miss the point. I was mentioning my local meta because some posters, who shall remain nameless but know who they are are more intent on arguing my own motivations rather than the actual argument. I'm saying I have no motivation but enjoyment of the argument.

I demonstrated a roll is not equal to a re-roll using the rules pages ago. I’ve read the whole thread and engaged in it, so the insults to my reasoning and comprehension show you don’t wish an argument in good faith, just to “be right on the internet”. Good luck with that and enjoy your thread about a non-tactic.

This is my point here. "Attack the post, not the poster" is actually one of the tenets of YMDC (though paraphrased into other words) you know.

Anyway, having, I think, written half the thread at this point I can't find much where you provided support for your opinion. If you'd like to come back at any time to actually discuss it I'm sure we'd all enjoy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
roll = re-roll
re-rolls cannot be re-rolled
therefor rolls cannot be rolled

Eureka!
Throwing dice is not allowed in 40k.
/s

I feel like I lost IQ points just reading this thread...

Alright, I think I've made this very point when quoting you before. Re-roll ARE different than rolls for the purpose of re-rolling because there is specific RAW that says so. There is NOT RAW, however, that says they are different for any other purpose, relevantly this one. That's why it doesn't work as an example. We have to go with the general definition of re-rolls, which is that they are rolls.

It's like if you wrote a law that said: "For purposes of reading this law, cake and cupcake are synonymous unless we are talking about chocolate cakes in which case they are different". This is actually a fairly common thing to do in many disciplines in the world including game rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
roll = re-roll
re-rolls cannot be re-rolled
therefor rolls cannot be rolled

Eureka!
Throwing dice is not allowed in 40k.
/s

I feel like I lost IQ points just reading this thread...

Actually to be technical if a re-roll is not a roll then you do not kill yourself with overcharged plasma when you re-roll and get a 1, and if you roll a one and re-roll it and get a different number you still kill yourself because the rules state that overcharged plasma slays the model on a roll of one. Which lets be honest, that's not how it works. Edit-didn't see some wording, this is wrong see below.

That being said I do agree that the intent is you cannot use this stratagem with a re-roll.

I think we are better off looking at what they mean when they say before you make a charge roll. This can actually be read and interpreted in two ways.

Interpretation 1: You must use this stratagem before a(any) charge roll is made. This would mean that once you've rolled a charge roll you cannot use this stratagem because you've already rolled a charge roll. You no longer meet the requirements of before.

Interpretation 2: This one is harder to word in a satisfactory way but I'll take a crack at it. This interpretation takes "a charge roll" to mean any charge roll that unit makes regardless if its the first or not.

Neither interpretation is wrong per the English language so RAW can go both ways, however I definitely believe RAI is that you cannot use this stratagem with a re-roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The strategy requires that you use it before you roll your charge roll. A charge re-roll is not the same thing. You have already made your charge roll and therefore you can't use the strategy. Also per the OP you are also changing the amount of dice for the re-roll. Most people will say that a re-roll of a roll uses the same amount of dice as the original roll. So, if you try to use the strategy after failing your initial charge roll I'm not even sure you're following the proper re-roll procedure (but that's another can of worms). Per the BRB a re-roll allows you to roll some or all of the dice again. There is no mention of being able to add dice.

Your plasma line is not the same thing. Plasma weapons get hot on hit rolls of a "1". A re-roll allows you the opportunity to change that "1" into something else. The to hit roll is the final result of your roll + your re-roll (if applicable). So the first time you roll a "1" is erased if you use a re-roll and the re-roll result becomes the to hit roll.

Actually I didn't notice that plasma says hit rolls of 1 so this would be correct when it comes to plasma

I think your emphasis is on the wrong word here. It still says 'roll'. It's a To Hit roll, sure, but this stratagem is trying to work on a Charge Roll. It still falls into the trap of "if a re-roll is not a roll then...".

Leo writes that the "hit roll" is the "final result" of a roll and a re-roll, but I can't find RAW to say that's the definition and it seems more his interpretation of RAI. Which is fine, RAI is important, but we have to get a consensus on RAW before we discuss RAI otherwise we don't have a common foundation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
A re-roll's die/dice replace the original roll's result with their own. Plasma over heats on a hit roll of "1". All that matters is the final result in this instance. It has nothing to do with whether the result came about with a roll or a re-roll.

Yeah this is it. I can't find RAW to support this. Where are you pulling from? I'm fully willing to admit I missed something if shown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I had truly hoped that YMDC would have been a bit more thoughtful than the typical argument that broke out at tables over silly rules. People could take the time to discuss the merits of the arguments, come up with carefully constructed thoughts that were a bit deeper than a rain puddle.

That's how interesting interactions are found in the game. It seems pretty decent intent to try to save 2 CP by not using the stratagem until after you've failed the roll the 2d6 way.

There is an inherent weakness in the strategy that a 2, 2, 3 still fails and now cannot be rerolled because the 3d6 charge was already a reroll. Not to mention the original charge only has a 9/36 (aka 25%) chance of succeeding.

I know that the initial reaction is apprehension to the thought, but if the failed charge generates a reroll, the reroll MUST be a charge roll (as in what type of roll are we making) as well as a reroll (something tagging the roll as being a reroll and thus not rerollable). The timing of the stratagem says when you make a charge roll do 3d6, I don't think it rightly cares if it is a charge roll or a charge reroll, at the end of the day they are both still a type of charge roll.

Reading into and implying intention is injecting bias with no sort of indication from the writer what THEIR stated intention was. So now it becomes your perception of their intention without anything really to back it up other than saying a reroll is not a roll, thus it is not applicable to the context.

At which point we come back to the plasma quandry:

I fire a Plasmagun at BS 3, I roll a 2. It is a miss. Girly man says: yo, bro, reroll that fail. I reroll that into a 1. Since this reroll is distinct and not a hit roll... my guy doesn't die.

But we all know how literally everyone plays that scenario... he dies.

The reverse is also true.

If a roll a 1 on my plasma shot and kill myself, but my Cupcake Chaptermaster says: hey, reroll that, you poor soul. I reroll it into a 5. My "roll" was still a 1, and my reroll was a 5. If these were distinct, I would land a hit, but I would also die... yet again contrary to how everyone plays it.

So the way everyone plays it is that the first "to hit" roll is totally removed and replaced by a new "to hit" roll (reroll), but this new roll has a modifier saying it cannot be rerolled. Thus the first roll never actually happened, and a "to hit" roll still triggered for overcharged plasma's wording to actually take affect.

Just wanted to say this is an excellent post.

YMDC used to be a lot better about it. Something happened in 8th and now debating RAW is pseudo-verboten by many of the regulars for who knows why.

 p5freak wrote:
Now you dont blow up with overcharged plasma if the reroll is a 1, because a hit reroll is not a hit roll ? Thats ridiculous. A hit reroll is the same as a hit roll. Same applies to a charge reroll, it's still a charge roll.

With limitations, it tells you that you are rolling some or all of the dice again, according to the Battle Primer. It does not give permission to add new dice. Also, you have already rolled a charge when you go for the reroll, so you're not playing the stratagem before the unit has made a charge roll.

Actually it's in the Basic Rules FAQ- If you are re-rolling a result then you must roll the same dice as the original roll.

As to re-rolls being the final roll (before modifiers) there is nothing RAW that explicitly states that. However modifiers are only added to the final roll since they are not added to the roll to determine pass or fail until after the final die roll(s).

From the designers notes: "A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers."

Since re-rolls happen before modifiers and nothing can adjust a die roll after modifiers the re-roll must be the final result pending modifiers. Otherwise you would be able to take your original roll rather than the re-roll. And there are situations where it would be advantageous to go back to the original roll (if you roll a 3 needing a 4 and reroll a 2 it would miss but if there was a +1 to hit modifier then you'd rather go back to the 3 since, after modifiers, it would hit).

Audustum wrote:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
roll = re-roll
re-rolls cannot be re-rolled
therefor rolls cannot be rolled

Eureka!
Throwing dice is not allowed in 40k.
/s

I feel like I lost IQ points just reading this thread...

Actually to be technical if a re-roll is not a roll then you do not kill yourself with overcharged plasma when you re-roll and get a 1, and if you roll a one and re-roll it and get a different number you still kill yourself because the rules state that overcharged plasma slays the model on a roll of one. Which lets be honest, that's not how it works. Edit-didn't see some wording, this is wrong see below.

That being said I do agree that the intent is you cannot use this stratagem with a re-roll.

I think we are better off looking at what they mean when they say before you make a charge roll. This can actually be read and interpreted in two ways.

Interpretation 1: You must use this stratagem before a(any) charge roll is made. This would mean that once you've rolled a charge roll you cannot use this stratagem because you've already rolled a charge roll. You no longer meet the requirements of before.

Interpretation 2: This one is harder to word in a satisfactory way but I'll take a crack at it. This interpretation takes "a charge roll" to mean any charge roll that unit makes regardless if its the first or not.

Neither interpretation is wrong per the English language so RAW can go both ways, however I definitely believe RAI is that you cannot use this stratagem with a re-roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The strategy requires that you use it before you roll your charge roll. A charge re-roll is not the same thing. You have already made your charge roll and therefore you can't use the strategy. Also per the OP you are also changing the amount of dice for the re-roll. Most people will say that a re-roll of a roll uses the same amount of dice as the original roll. So, if you try to use the strategy after failing your initial charge roll I'm not even sure you're following the proper re-roll procedure (but that's another can of worms). Per the BRB a re-roll allows you to roll some or all of the dice again. There is no mention of being able to add dice.

Your plasma line is not the same thing. Plasma weapons get hot on hit rolls of a "1". A re-roll allows you the opportunity to change that "1" into something else. The to hit roll is the final result of your roll + your re-roll (if applicable). So the first time you roll a "1" is erased if you use a re-roll and the re-roll result becomes the to hit roll.

Actually I didn't notice that plasma says hit rolls of 1 so this would be correct when it comes to plasma

I think your emphasis is on the wrong word here. It still says 'roll'. It's a To Hit roll, sure, but this stratagem is trying to work on a Charge Roll. It still falls into the trap of "if a re-roll is not a roll then...".

Leo writes that the "hit roll" is the "final result" of a roll and a re-roll, but I can't find RAW to say that's the definition and it seems more his interpretation of RAI. Which is fine, RAI is important, but we have to get a consensus on RAW before we discuss RAI otherwise we don't have a common foundation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
A re-roll's die/dice replace the original roll's result with their own. Plasma over heats on a hit roll of "1". All that matters is the final result in this instance. It has nothing to do with whether the result came about with a roll or a re-roll.

Yeah this is it. I can't find RAW to support this. Where are you pulling from? I'm fully willing to admit I missed something if shown.

A hit roll has to be different than a regular roll because a hit roll includes modifiers. As such a hit roll is the final result since modifiers are the last thing applied to a roll. In fact I'm looking at the battle primer right now and in the example turn on step 5 the fight phase it shows that a 2 was rolled on the die for the power fist but the hit roll was a 1. That means a hit roll is the result after all rerolls and modifiers. (which is why if you have a +1 to hit you don't blow up with plasma on a 1 and if you have a -1 you do blow up even if you roll a 2)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relevant material from Designer's Commentary faq

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less
than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been
applied, a dice roll would be less than 1,
count that result as a 1.
Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on,
for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a
Space Marine Captain’s Rites of Battle
ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers,
so the re-roll ability is triggered before
applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine
(Ballistic Skill 3+) moves and fires a heavy bolter
(a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst within range of a
Space Marine Captain’s Rites of Battle ability
(allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this
example a single dice is re-rolled because of the
Captain’s ability, this time resulting in a 3.
Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this
example there is a -1 modifier to the hit rolls
for moving and firing a Heavy weapon. That
means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5
are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final
results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot
hits the target.
2
Q: When making a hit roll with a
supercharged plasma weapon, do you
determine whether a ‘1’ was rolled before
or after applying re-rolls and modifiers?
A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first.
For example, if, after re-rolls and modifiers,
the final result is then a 1 (or counts as a 1, as
explained above), then the supercharged plasma
weapon injures or kills the firer.
Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers
on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this
refer to the result of the dice rolls before
or after modifiers are applied?
A: It refers to the final result, after re-rolls
and modifiers (if any) have been applied.
The only exception to this would be abilities
that specifically state, for example, ‘unmodified
hit rolls of 6’, or ‘hit rolls of 6 before modifiers
are applied.’

That being said this has no bearing on the charge roll argument but does debase the theory that plasma shows that rolls and re-rolls are the same. Plasma proves nothing because for plasma we are looking at the hit roll which is the final result. I suppose you could infer from this that charge rolls are the same as hit rolls in that the charge roll is the final result after re-rolls and modifiers. In that case a re-roll would not count for the stratagem because a re-roll is part of the rolling process not a new roll. That actually makes a lot of sense.

If during the charge phase you declare a charge with an unit against target(s) and roll any dice you have made a charge roll.

As you have made a roll before you can re-roll you have passed the point you can use DoA.

Have you declared a charge and rolled dice? - you can't use DoA because you made a charge roll.

Have you declared a charge and not rolled any dice ? You can choose to use DoA.

blaktoof wrote:
If during the charge phase you declare a charge with an unit against target(s) and roll any dice you have made a charge roll.

As you have made a roll before you can re-roll you have passed the point you can use DoA.

Have you declared a charge and rolled dice? - you can't use DoA because you made a charge roll.

Have you declared a charge and not rolled any dice ? You can choose to use DoA.

It really is as simple as this!

I have come back from an Easter break to see this dumpster fire is still burning away!?

i really cant see why people are trying to argue this is legit/ usable