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Actually, this week we wanted to talk about something else, but the complete profile of the new little knight - Armiger Warglaive has leaked into the web. So, let's talk about the balance of super-heavy elite units in Warhammer 40 000 in the 8th edition.

Actually, you can see the profile of the new Knight below. It might seem that everything is fine. Quite a powerful weapon on a very solid platform for a good price. But, you know what is embarrassing? Here is this block at the top - the table of degradation. Our new friend is degrading in the most important parameters for such machine - BS and WS. And it happens as soon as he loses half (6) of his wound. And it's ... catastrophic.



It would seem - just 4+ for a successful hit roll. However, in these conditions, especially with modest 4 attacks in close combat and random D3 shots, it turns into a laughingstock rather than a full-fledged combat vehicle. And what weapon can remove 6 wounds in T7 and 5 ++ in this edition? Yes, any lascannon, or rocket. Two - to be guaranteed. It turns out, an impressive fighting machine for 200 points turns into useless junk after one volley over it. It’s even unnece
ssary to finish it. And the enemy naturally wants to make this volley, seeing such an undoubtedly dangerous goal. Isn’t it more reasonable, to take a dreadnaught?

Why are we talking about the unready unit with such confidence? Because absolutely the same thing happens with a big Imperial Knight. Twice as many wounds, of course, but also, as practice shows, it's not a problem at all. 5 ++ is not enough to provide at least some kind of stability. Do not forget that the enemy always aims at such target in the first place. This also applies to many other equally powerful and expensive units. The table of "degradation" in essence, reduces their effectiveness twice. And if, for example, the primarchs can protect themselves with magic, then the Knights are completely defenseless against enemy fire. In the seventh edition, for example, they did not receive any fines for damage at all.

The conclusion seems to be logical - to change the table to lower other stats, for example, the number of attacks - so we leave the Knight a chance to prove himself useful at least in shooting, and remain useful until the end. However, judging by his younger partner, in the upcoming codex this just will not happen. What then? Obviously, we are waiting for strategems to use the maximum profile, or simply to restore health - this has already been in other codices. However, this is not enough - everyone knows how quickly command points end up. Therefore, we have to desire only an increase in survivability - the possibility of invuln increasing, or some kind of FNP. Or, better, both.

And how do you see this problem? Do you enjoy the game for superheavy units in the new edition? Offer your ideas! The main goal of this blog is to raise this issue in the wargame community because logical and obvious solutions are still bypassing us.

Find more in our blog: https://warzone40k.com/superheavy-tanks-warhammer

My reply posted at www.nosuperheaviesarejustfinestopcomplainingthatyourstuffcandie.com.

Dude seriously? my stormsurges would kill to start out at bs3, and have other stats than their BS degrade with damage.

We should wait for the IK book before climbing this tree. We've already seen forge bane differ from the Necrons book.

Honestly if armiger's were actually in the 200pt range they'd have some legs. As we all know they start at 224 and realistically are going to be 240, way too much.

If I was going to be brutally honest I'd put them in the 180 range based on other units and the "competitive" metagame, but even a flat 200 with carapace melta would be a start. They're in a weird spot because they're a superheavy that far more closely resembles a dread, yet is used and acts like it's a superheavy. And it's got some nifty abilities, that 14" move for example is really nice. It just costs too much. A neutron laser onager for example hits just as hard at range yet costs almost half as much, and is technically more durable. Yeah it's got half the speed and little melee ability, but those are hardly worth 90pts.

Superheavies, and vehicles/monsters in general need some sort of degrading mechanic. Superheavies and monsters in previous editions were too strong when there was no difference between a 1 wound Knight and a full health one. I agree some of the penalties are a bit harsh, but if knight prices were reigned in a little it'd be fine. After all, baneblades have proven that degrading statline superheavies can be quite powerful, although they may be a bit too cheap.

Sorry, but I'm not clear on how this is related to "superheavy" units. Based on the image above, armigers are basically overpriced dreadnaughts. The models are physically large and occupy lord of war slots, but they aren't "super heavies" any more than mawlocs or riptides are.

My wraith lords (which are usually considered subpar units next to other options) can get 2 bright lance shots (comparable to the average output a thermal spear) and a ghost glaive (comparable to the killing power of a chain cleaver) along with a pair of flamers for about 170 points. It has comparable defenses, slightly fewer wounds, and slightly less movement. It also degrades. The armiger is too pricey, but it's not like it lacks parody with other units.

Think of it as a pricey imperial wraith lord rather than a "superheavy."

Super Heavies suck this edition you put so many points into one big model that is super easy to wipe out and it dose not even do more damage than you would get just spamming something like russes. The perk of having a single beefy model used to be if it was at 1W or 24 wounds it was just as good well a squad of tanks was slowly losing firepower over the game. With the new wound table they got nothing going for them anymore other then they look cool.

it's actually rather funny, last edition people where asking for vehicles to all be made MCs. now that it's happened "vehicles suck"

Baneblades don’t suck.
Equip them with 4 sponsons giving you 4 lascannons and 5 twin heavy bolters with 30 S5 AP-1 shots in toto. Ouch!

My Morkanaut would kill not to have BS5 and a degradation to his WS3... he even gets less attacks I think!

The joke is, after the codex itnwill probably cost more in pts.

 Peregrine wrote:
My reply posted at www.nosuperheaviesarejustfinestopcomplainingthatyourstuffcandie.com.

Exalted

On paper this new walker seems quite fine for that price. Try the ork nauts or their dread before complaining.

BrianDavion wrote:it's actually rather funny, last edition people where asking for vehicles to all be made MCs. now that it's happened "vehicles suck"

It's mostly because MCs didn't have degrading statlines, and vehicles could be one-shot. Now, neither can be one-shot, but they all degrade.
Vehicles don't suck because they're the same as 8th MCs, they "suck" (I don't think they do) because they aren't the same as 7th MCs.

mew28 wrote:Super Heavies suck this edition you put so many points into one big model that is super easy to wipe out and it dose not even do more damage than you would get just spamming something like russes. The perk of having a single beefy model used to be if it was at 1W or 24 wounds it was just as good well a squad of tanks was slowly losing firepower over the game. With the new wound table they got nothing going for them anymore other then they look cool.

The downside of 7th vehicles was that they could be potentially blown up in one shot, Haywired, Grav'd or melta'd into slag. It's not just a Super Heavy issue any more either - it's a Monster issue too.
Personally, I'm just happy that MCs aren't automatically better than Vehicles, and that normal Vehicles aren't the only units that degrade, and struggle to be one-shot.

This new walker is in no way a Super Heavy, it most closely resembles a Contemptor Dreadnought but worse.

It has better movement and 2 more wounds than a Contemptor for 100 more points, that's rediculous! The Contemptor has better WS/BS, it can be set up to have much more powerful shooting and it starts of with more powerful CC abilities, on top of that it has a permanent 5++ and a 6+FnP.

These things should have never been made; as they are, they are massively overpriced; if you bump up their stats to their points level (T8, WS/BS2+, etc.) they'll likely become the new spammable hotness; and if you lower their points they become a stupidly easy way to get 3CP in a fully mechanised army.

I dont know if this is just me, but Knights in general sorta suck. But most other super heavy units are still pretty cash money (Khorne's, Tau's, IG's, etc. etc.)

Let's all remember that there's been a competitive list that is literally just three baneblades.

 mrhappyface wrote:
This new walker is in no way a Super Heavy, it most closely resembles a Contemptor Dreadnought but worse.

It has better movement and 2 more wounds than a Contemptor for 100 more points, that's rediculous! The Contemptor has better WS/BS, it can be set up to have much more powerful shooting and it starts of with more powerful CC abilities, on top of that it has a permanent 5++ and a 6+FnP.

These things should have never been made; as they are, they are massively overpriced; if you bump up their stats to their points level (T8, WS/BS2+, etc.) they'll likely become the new spammable hotness; and if you lower their points they become a stupidly easy way to get 3CP in a fully mechanised army.

No wonder it looks like a worse contemptor dreadnaught when you make up the stats for a contemptor.
A contemptor is movement 9 not 15 its 2+ 2+ not 3+ 3+ but its supposed to represent a crusade era spacemarine hero, not some random human in a mecha suit.
Its also only 4 wounds to bracket the dread not 6
Its options are an assualt cannon or multimelta only both are heavy so only hit on 3's if it moves and can't advance and shoot, armiger is a 30 inch d3 melta that can advance and shoot and hits on 3's moving.
Contemptor has a 5+invlun you have a 5+ invuln to shooting. Not much difference and its not 100 more points its 80 given an extra melta shot would be an extra 27 for the contemptor thats 50-55 points for 6 inches of movement and 2 wounds and 6 inches of range it might not be darkreaper or guard priced but doesn't sound half as over priced as you seem to think it is.
And a contemptor doesn't have a fnp.

Ice_can wrote:
A contemptor is movement 9 not 15

I know, in my post I said the Armiger has better movement.

its 2+ 2+ not 3+ 3+ but its supposed to represent a crusade era spacemarine hero, not some random human in a mecha suit.

Good for you but that doesn't change the fact it has better shooting and combat stats than the new lite-Super Heavy.

Its also only 4 wounds to bracket the dread not 6

Ok. I didn't say anything about wound brackets but well done.

Its options are an assualt cannon or multimelta only both are heavy so only hit on 3's if it moves and can't advance and shoot, armiger is a 30 inch d3 melta that can advance and shoot and hits on 3's moving.

My mistake, I was thinking of the chaos one which has access to ALL the dakka.

Contemptor has a 5+invlun you have a 5+ invuln to shooting. Not much difference

It is if you play against a CQC army.

and its not 100 more points its 80 given an extra melta shot would be an extra 27 for the contemptor thats 50-55 points for 6 inches of movement and 2 wounds and 6 inches of range it might not be darkreaper or guard priced but doesn't sound half as over priced as you seem to think it is.

Perhaps I may have over-reacted a little, but it still isn't a very good unit as is.

And a contemptor doesn't have a fnp.

Yes it does, 'Unyielding Ancient'.

Then don't use it it's that simple. I plan on running a house army with 4 basic knights or assuming the new big knight is 600 points, I'm gonna run one big knight, 2 knights and then some sort of fast attack detatchment or sentinals to counter deep strike.

Ice_can wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
This new walker is in no way a Super Heavy, it most closely resembles a Contemptor Dreadnought but worse.

It has better movement and 2 more wounds than a Contemptor for 100 more points, that's rediculous! The Contemptor has better WS/BS, it can be set up to have much more powerful shooting and it starts of with more powerful CC abilities, on top of that it has a permanent 5++ and a 6+FnP.

These things should have never been made; as they are, they are massively overpriced; if you bump up their stats to their points level (T8, WS/BS2+, etc.) they'll likely become the new spammable hotness; and if you lower their points they become a stupidly easy way to get 3CP in a fully mechanised army.

(EDIT: RELIC CONTEMPTOR DREADNAUGHT, IA:ASTARTES)

No wonder it looks like a worse contemptor dreadnaught when you make up the stats for a contemptor.
A contemptor is movement 9 not 15 its 2+ 2+ not 3+ 3+ but its supposed to represent a crusade era spacemarine hero, not some random human in a mecha suit.
Its also only 4 wounds to bracket the dread not 6
Its options are an assualt cannon or multimelta only both are heavy so only hit on 3's if it moves and can't advance and shoot, armiger is a 30 inch d3 melta that can advance and shoot and hits on 3's moving.
Contemptor has a 5+invlun you have a 5+ invuln to shooting. Not much difference and its not 100 more points its 80 given an extra melta shot would be an extra 27 for the contemptor thats 50-55 points for 6 inches of movement and 2 wounds and 6 inches of range it might not be darkreaper or guard priced but doesn't sound half as over priced as you seem to think it is.
And a contemptor doesn't have a fnp.

(EDIT: CONTEMPTOR DREADNAUGHT, CODEX: SPACE MARINES)

The "Contemptor Dreadnaught" model has many different profiles (Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Adeptus Astartes, two in Imperial Armour (Astartes)). Just because he's looking at one you haven't bothered to look up doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Also contemptors has access to a gak ton of weapons. Forge world babe. If your gonna run a contemptor your dipping into forge world units at that point. Remember, the contemptor is a forge world unit that GW just made a plastic model for. If your not useing stuff from forge world your gimping yourself.

 Teena Hancock wrote:
In the seventh edition, for example, they did not receive any fines for damage at all

Someone already forgot damage tables, eh?

Plus, in 7th, Armiger would only have a ++ save on one facing, and most likely not be a superheavy so instead of degrading it would eat AP1 hit (or D strength some armies had in abundance), exploded, and that would be all she wrote. Or haywired/glanced/rent to death. Or eaten for breakfast by first MC that wanders close. Etc, etc.

8th is a really big improvement in that regard.

Yeah 8th was a god send for vehicles

Superheavies are conceptually fine right now imo.

Some are overcosted by a lot (knights), some are slightly undercosted (Baneblades, or really just the sponsons), but the core idea is solid.

Less durable than their equivalent points in other, similar units, but with good (if unwieldy for the inexperienced) firepower and a neato gimmick (steel behemoth) which changes their role and tactical use.

Neither the codex marine or forgeworld contemptors have unyielding ancient
Yes the forgeworld contemptor has relic of ancient glory which is a 6+ fnp, it also has 12 wounds.
But if I give it is most comparable weapon of twin lascannon guess what it is 227 points so its not cheaper and it doesnt come with a heavy stubber or multimelta at that price, also it requires a codex unit of the slot to be taken before it can be taken.
Like I said its maybe a little over price, but its not half as overpriced as you seam to think.

What would make Knights viable is if their attacks ignored invulnerable saves on anything less than anther Super Heavy/Titan.

Suddenly that -4 or -5 becomes a shredded 3++ model. They could be viable offensively and worth their cost.

As it stands right now, Knights are vastly inferior to Baneblades. To me, Knights should at least be in the conversation.

 Marmatag wrote:
What would make Knights viable is if their attacks ignored invulnerable saves on anything less than anther Super Heavy/Titan.

Suddenly that -4 or -5 becomes a shredded 3++ model. They could be viable offensively and worth their cost.

As it stands right now, Knights are vastly inferior to Baneblades. To me, Knights should at least be in the conversation.

Agreed, though rather than going back to D-style ignoring saves I would just start by chopping 100pts off the price.

There is no reason the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon on the Paladin costs 100 (!!) Points.

It's true that knights compaired to bane blades are just crap.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
What would make Knights viable is if their attacks ignored invulnerable saves on anything less than anther Super Heavy/Titan.

Suddenly that -4 or -5 becomes a shredded 3++ model. They could be viable offensively and worth their cost.

As it stands right now, Knights are vastly inferior to Baneblades. To me, Knights should at least be in the conversation.

Agreed, though rather than going back to D-style ignoring saves I would just start by chopping 100pts off the price.

There is no reason the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon on the Paladin costs 100 (!!) Points.

Yeah the Rapid Fire Battlecannon is worth its cost if it rolls a 12 for shots, haha.

But seriously, a model with a stormshield and a few wounds can easily tank an entire round of shooting from a Knight. That doesn't really make sense, or add up in my mind. That shield is somehow blocking bullets bigger than the body of the person carrying the damn thing...

And it also creates a use case for Knights that is different from Baneblades. So you have choices in your super heavies rather than always taken one over the other. Because if we continue down the same road, it'll be a direct comparison based solely on points.

Or just turn the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon into a Shadowsword gun. I would be perfectly content with that.

You wanna talk about lawlsy stuff that does not make sense?

If I enter combat with you with nurglings or anything with swarm, you can't walk outta combat with it.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You wanna talk about lawlsy stuff that does not make sense?

If I enter combat with you with nurglings or anything with swarm, you can't walk outta combat with it.

Yes I know, I love that "gotcha" with my rippers. No one attacks them and they laugh when the rippers come into combat... and then they can't fall back. And then, the tiny rippers are laughing. Well, for 1 more turn.

The Wraithseer is a pretty close comparison. Same stat line, saves, wounds, etc., except that it moves half the speed. Comparable combat weapons. The Wraithseer’s D-Cannon is not quite as good, it is heavy D3 instead of assault, and has slightly shorter range, but higher strength. Wraithseer has no secondary weapon, but it is a psyker, which is maybe better. In a vacuum, I would slightly prefer the baby knight, and would pay perhaps an extra 25 points for it over the Wraithseer. But the Wraithseer costs a full 65 points less, and benefits from the Aeldari craft world bonusus, stratagems, and psychic powers, which are among the best (or are the best) in the game. Whereas (at least until we see a new book), knights get very little from the Ad mech book.

Maybe if they automatically benefited from canticles of the Omnisciah, or from forgeworld bonuses, that would justify the increased cost. Baby knight is a cool model, so I’m hoping imperial knights codex attempt two will add some nice stratagems or faction bonuses that justify what seems to me to be roughly an unnecessary 40 point premium.