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This comes to the issue of having an armor class.

Flak armor 5+
Plate armor 4+
Fully enclosed plate 3+
Heavy enclosed plate 2+

They should’ve kept the AP for weapons and then given rerolls against anything without adequate penetration to show how difficult it is for a lasgun to pierce terminator armor. A 1 out of 6 chance of being wounded by a lasgun in terminator armor is ridiculous. You must use armor piercing ammo type weapons for those kinds of targets

warpedpig wrote:
This comes to the issue of having an armor class.

Flak armor 5+
Plate armor 4+
Fully enclosed plate 3+
Heavy enclosed plate 2+

They should’ve kept the AP for weapons and then given rerolls against anything without adequate penetration to show how difficult it is for a lasgun to pierce terminator armor. A 1 out of 6 chance of being wounded by a lasgun in terminator armor is ridiculous. You must use armor piercing ammo type weapons for those kinds of targets

Except it's not 1/6, it's 2.7% (or 1/36) because 99% of Lasguns you'll have fired at you are BS4+. I agree that's still too high. Terminators should get to re-roll failed saves, or use a D12 for their saves.

Thats 40 guardsmen rapid firing to kill 1 terminator. That sure sounds like a lot.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Thats 40 guardsmen rapid firing to kill 1 terminator. That sure sounds like a lot.

That's because they're already durable to more weapons compared to last edition. This is why they need the buff to offense. It's like people here want the individual to be as durable as a Land Raider, and that's why most of the people here shouldn't be Rules writers.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Thats 40 guardsmen rapid firing to kill 1 terminator. That sure sounds like a lot.

That same 40 gaurdsmen kills almost 5 marines. And realistically each one of those squads is going to be shooting twice....

Since EVERY time we start talking about marines. We come back to "Guard do it better!" that tells me that Guard need to be rebalanced. Some troops are simply just too damn cheap as GW keeps bloating out how many models you need to field an army. Honestly, I think the best way is making everyone more expensive everywhere for every army.

That, and the MEQ statline needs to rediscover a sense of purpose. Ignoring the first point of AP on any attack is a good step. Doesn't help vs basic infantry, but it helps save them against the horrendeously underpriced special weapons some armies field.

Or just make marines cheap. Like everythjng else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Thats 40 guardsmen rapid firing to kill 1 terminator. That sure sounds like a lot.

That's because they're already durable to more weapons compared to last edition. This is why they need the buff to offense. It's like people here want the individual to be as durable as a Land Raider, and that's why most of the people here shouldn't be Rules writers.

I generally agree with that assessment. Buffs to marines ought to be in the form of offense, not defense. It's not being killed by guardsmen that feels off, but the killing of them. Guard are tougher than they ever have been, historically speaking. In some respects I think that's ok, since we now see lots of them on the table, which is great. But I would expect them to die a little faster. It wouldn't take much, honestly. Imo there's a sweet spot that's not too far from what we have.

The bolters with -1 AP isn't a good solution for it, since as some have pointed out that makes marines immediately less durable.

You could drop the guardsman save to 6+, although it is nice to see them on the table and I think that might be too heavy a hit for guard players.

Your notion of the Terminators WS BS of 2+ I like. Although it doesn't really help the basic marines.

But we have this category of weapons which used to absolutely murder GEQ, but that feels like an almost complete waste now, which is flamers. If we can get flamers in the right place it would help a lot, imo. No, it wouldn't improve the basic marine, but it would help the ability of the basic marine squad. It's maybe not the fix people are looking for, but it sure seems like low-hanging fruit. I think most people can agree that flamers aren't up to snuff.

I'd also tentatively put Whirlwinds in a similar category. They've felt way more effective vs. GEQ in the past.

Tldr: It seems easier to improve some specialized tools that don't appear to work as intended, rather than make sweeping changes to the most popular unit type in the game.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Thats 40 guardsmen rapid firing to kill 1 terminator. That sure sounds like a lot.

That's because they're already durable to more weapons compared to last edition. This is why they need the buff to offense. It's like people here want the individual to be as durable as a Land Raider, and that's why most of the people here shouldn't be Rules writers.

I generally agree with that assessment. Buffs to marines ought to be in the form of offense, not defense. It's not being killed by guardsmen that feels off, but the killing of them. Guard are tougher than they ever have been, historically speaking. In some respects I think that's ok, since we now see lots of them on the table, which is great. But I would expect them to die a little faster. It wouldn't take much, honestly. Imo there's a sweet spot that's not too far from what we have.

The bolters with -1 AP isn't a good solution for it, since as some have pointed out that makes marines immediately less durable.

You could drop the guardsman save to 6+, although it is nice to see them on the table and I think that might be too heavy a hit for guard players.

Your notion of the Terminators WS BS of 2+ I like. Although it doesn't really help the basic marines.

But we have this category of weapons which used to absolutely murder GEQ, but that feels like an almost complete waste now, which is flamers. If we can get flamers in the right place it would help a lot, imo. No, it wouldn't improve the basic marine, but it would help the ability of the basic marine squad. It's maybe not the fix people are looking for, but it sure seems like low-hanging fruit. I think most people can agree that flamers aren't up to snuff.

I'd also tentatively put Whirlwinds in a similar category. They've felt way more effective vs. GEQ in the past.

Tldr: It seems easier to improve some specialized tools that don't appear to work as intended, rather than make sweeping changes to the most popular unit type in the game.

Honestly the basic Marine profile is easy to fix, and the issue is most people REALLY overthink it. As you've seen, I'm mostly conservative with my fixes as big as they might be.
1. Anything with a Bolter goes down 1 point
2. Bolters are now 1 point
3. Bolt Weapons gain a special rule (I keep plugging my idea of a 6 to wound forces opponents to reroll successful saves or just successful saves of 6+), and then Storm Bolters can maybe go to 3 points
4. Tactical Marines gain a new weapon at 7 man squads

So the loadout in a 10 man squad is 6 Bolters, either 2 Special/1 Heavy or 1 Special/2 Heavy, and then however you equip the sergeant.
Problem is that Deathwatch Intercessors completely threw off my fixes, and honestly Deathwatch did in general outside a couple of internal issues that really don't need fixing.

I know some people disagreed with my idea of Sternguard getting BS2+ and Vanguard getting WS2+ as well, but I don't think the idea is bad as long as the price is correct. It also gives them a role outside Command Squads doing everything better and more importantly makes the varying loadouts be able to function on some level. Simply put, you don't take Power Fists on Vanguard because 2 attacks at 4+ is just...bad.

Chaos Marines are a different story and as we all know I'm for deleting the Vanilla Marine entry completely and making the standard troop for them, and giving Havocs the Vet statline.

I was thinking the same thing but was going to implement it slightly differenly.

Power Armor - Ignore AP -1 when making saves.
Terminator Armor- Ingnore AP -1 and 2 when making saves.


Might not need the terminator rule since they have an extra wound.

Helps against small arms does gak against the big guns.

Just throwing this out there:
-Rapid fire drill: Add one to the number of attacks made with boltguns while within half range.
(applies to all marines with boltguns)

The idea being that more shots is preferable to better shots against GEQ since better AP tends to hurt MEQ more.

Dandelion wrote:
Just throwing this out there:
-Rapid fire drill: Add one to the number of attacks made with boltguns while within half range.
(applies to all marines with boltguns)

The idea being that more shots is preferable to better shots against GEQ since better AP tends to hurt MEQ more.

I have to say thats a no to that idea from me as your just turning marines into firewarriors and it's not a good way to go.

Marines do need more damage output but turning them into firewarriors takes away thier thing. Another option is to give them the eldar treatment and allow them to always shoot thier pistols in addition to normal weapons. It would also give them a bonus of being able to advance and still shoot pistols.

What if marines had the same rule as in 30k (shooting twice if they didn't move) ?

 godardc wrote:
What if marines had the same rule as in 30k (shooting twice if they didn't move) ?

Deathguard would be broken as hell with 4 shoots each at 18inchs, enjoy 4 plasma gun shoots at18 inch aswell.

 godardc wrote:
What if marines had the same rule as in 30k (shooting twice if they didn't move) ?

It would be too powerful but it would also be boring wouldn't it? I stay still all game already basically bound to cover.

Ice_can wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Just throwing this out there:
-Rapid fire drill: Add one to the number of attacks made with boltguns while within half range.
(applies to all marines with boltguns)

The idea being that more shots is preferable to better shots against GEQ since better AP tends to hurt MEQ more.

I have to say thats a no to that idea from me as your just turning marines into firewarriors and it's not a good way to go.

Marines do need more damage output but turning them into firewarriors takes away thier thing. Another option is to give them the eldar treatment and allow them to always shoot thier pistols in addition to normal weapons. It would also give them a bonus of being able to advance and still shoot pistols.

You can't advance and fire pistols at all.

Though I don't see how this turns marines into firewarriors. Would giving them the eldar treatment just make them eldar? Wasn't "rapid fire" a marine thing way back anyway? So if anything this brings them back to their roots a bit.
Also Tau need fireblades to get the ability whereas this would just be a built in ability for tactical marines so it is functionally different already.

Still, giving marines the ability to fire pistols in addition to their guns would have the same effect (3 bolt shots within 12") so what's the point in making it complicated?

Dandelion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Just throwing this out there:
-Rapid fire drill: Add one to the number of attacks made with boltguns while within half range.
(applies to all marines with boltguns)

The idea being that more shots is preferable to better shots against GEQ since better AP tends to hurt MEQ more.

I have to say thats a no to that idea from me as your just turning marines into firewarriors and it's not a good way to go.

Marines do need more damage output but turning them into firewarriors takes away thier thing. Another option is to give them the eldar treatment and allow them to always shoot thier pistols in addition to normal weapons. It would also give them a bonus of being able to advance and still shoot pistols.

You can't advance and fire pistols at all.

Though I don't see how this turns marines into firewarriors. Would giving them the eldar treatment just make them eldar? Wasn't "rapid fire" a marine thing way back anyway? So if anything this brings them back to their roots a bit.
Also Tau need fireblades to get the ability whereas this would just be a built in ability for tactical marines so it is functionally different already.

Still, giving marines the ability to fire pistols in addition to their guns would have the same effect (3 bolt shots within 12") so what's the point in making it complicated?

I know you normally can't advance and fire pistols thats what I was getting at, you also usually can't shoot another weapon and a pistol at the same time either. I was pointing out it has some additional benifits.

The eldar treatment is a reference to them being able to ignore a core rule of 40k something GW as consistently given eldar rules to do.

Its not functionally different its functionally identical, the only difference is how you acess the bonus. Much like wisdom of the ancients vrs a captain, both grant you reroll 1's to hit.

So how does your rule interact with infernal bolters of rubrics.
Deathguards 18 rapid fire range ability?

Also what counts as a boltgun? Are storm bolter, heavy bolter, stalker bolt rifle, special issue boltgun, bolt carbines, assault bolter, auto boltstorm guantlets, auto bolt rifle, bolt rifle, boltstorm gauntlet, hurricane bolter?

Allowing them to always shot pistols in addition to any other weapon the may fire, keeps the rule very short and sweet, doesn't have to manage odd interactions with other traits and it also means marines upclose and personal, have an advantage over other armies, like being able to shot your pistol even when you fall back from combat makes aggressive tac squads mixing it at sub 12 inchs better they can punch people and shoot them and if they survive the CC with a scary counter charge unit they can fallback and still contribute. Meaning its more likely they get played aggressively, and they are more likely to use the CC stats they are paying for, as your not risking total shooting phase loss for weak CC ability.

Ice_can wrote:

I know you normally can't advance and fire pistols thats what I was getting at, you also usually shoot another weapon and a pistol at the same time either. I was pointing out it has some additional benifits.

I don't know what you're saying here.

Ice_can wrote:

Its not functionally different its functionally identical, the only difference is how you acess the bonus. Much like wisdom of the ancients vrs a captain, both grant you reroll 1's to hit.

It is a major difference and affects how they play. Not needing to stay close to a character gives marines an edge. There are plenty of abilities that are similar anyway, so I don't see how this one similarity causes marines to suddenly play exactly like FW.

Ice_can wrote:

So how does your rule interact with infernal bolters of rubrics.
Deathguards 18 rapid fire range ability?

It doesn't because it's a unit ability, and plague marines/rubrics would not have it in the first place. They could have a similar one, but it would be specific to them.

Ice_can wrote:

Also what counts as a boltgun? Are storm bolter, heavy bolter, stalker bolt rifle, special issue boltgun, bolt carbines, assault bolter, auto boltstorm guantlets, auto bolt rifle, bolt rifle, boltstorm gauntlet, hurricane bolter?

Literally just boltguns. I didn't say "bolt weapons".

Ice_can wrote:

Allowing them to always shot pistols in addition to any other weapon the may fire, keeps the rule very short and sweet, doesn't have to manage odd interactions with other traits and it also means marines upclose and personal, have and advantage over other armies, like being able to shot your pistol even when you fall back from combat make agress tac squads mixing it at sub 12 inchs can punch people and shoot them and if they survive the CC with a scary thing can fallback and still contribute. Meaning its more likely they get played aggressively, and they are morr likely to use the CC stats they are paying for, as your not risking total shooting phase loss for weak CC ability.

Nope, sorry. I can't get behind the pistol + heavy bolter firing at the same time. Shooting a gun and pistol at the same time doesn't make sense and feels wrong. "let me just shoot this heavy bolter one handed while I pull out my pistol."
Just give boltguns more shots and all of a sudden they are useful and not just paperweights. This whole thread is about fixing boltguns, not plasmaguns or CC. Giving plasma an extra bolt shot, or worse, and extra plasma shot, is unneeded imo. CC can be fixed with free bolt pistols/+1 attack and doesn't require ignoring any rules.

You also can't shoot pistols after falling back. Unless this is yet another exception?
Though I do think most infantry should just come standard with pistols regardless but that's another discussion.

If you're looking to beef up boltguns a bit, there was a thread about that a while ago; for that I suggested that all bolter weapons get the following ability:

For each hit roll of 6, this weapon inflicts two hits instead of one.

This is more general than extra shots at short range, but I think reflect boltguns quite well, as it's intended represent extra hits from the explosive bolts, shrapnel, through and throughs etc.

Of course this would apply to all units with bolter weapons, not just marines.

 Haravikk wrote:
If you're looking to beef up boltguns a bit, there was a thread about that a while ago; for that I suggested that all bolter weapons get the following ability:

For each hit roll of 6, this weapon inflicts two hits instead of one.

This is more general than extra shots at short range, but I think reflect boltguns quite well, as it's intended represent extra hits from the explosive bolts, shrapnel, through and throughs etc.

Of course this would apply to all units with bolter weapons, not just marines.

The problem is not the boltguns themselves, it's the marines holding them. To a sister or guardsmen the boltgun is actually pretty good.

Shooting Bolt Pistols in addition to the bolter etc. feels terrible from an imagery standpoint, and arguably 40Ks most valuable commodity is imagery.

I like the "Return to Rapid Fire" concept that gets posted now and again. Very traditional, keeps it to Marines. Personally I like a blanket "Extra Shot" if not moving, so 3 at 12" and 2 at 24".

 Haravikk wrote:
If you're looking to beef up boltguns a bit, there was a thread about that a while ago; for that I suggested that all bolter weapons get the following ability:

For each hit roll of 6, this weapon inflicts two hits instead of one.

This is more general than extra shots at short range, but I think reflect boltguns quite well, as it's intended represent extra hits from the explosive bolts, shrapnel, through and throughs etc.

Of course this would apply to all units with bolter weapons, not just marines.

I figured the rerolling of a save reflected that a bit better to be honest but I'm not opposed to the extra hit. I just don't think it works for fluff as well. Mechanically...eh.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Thats 40 guardsmen rapid firing to kill 1 terminator. That sure sounds like a lot.

That same 40 gaurdsmen kills almost 5 marines. And realistically each one of those squads is going to be shooting twice....

It takes 80 shots to get the kill. Or are you saying everybody is FRFSRFing? Because I'm not so sure that's realistic.

The situation as it currently stands is it takes 18-19 lasgun shots to average a kill on a normal marine not in cover. The idea that it takes about 10 normal guardsmen to bring a marine down at close range seems perfectly reasonable. Like I could read that in a 40k story and it would be fine. The issue is the feeling that the return fire isn't as threatening as it should be.

Exactly. For the price, Marines are durable-ish. We need offensive power fixed, as being terribly reliant on Roboute is ridiculous.

Better stratagems could improve offensive capability, but risk creating a band-aid approach to solving the problem. However, they can be easier to implement than stat changes or special rules.

For instance, the Bolter Dill stratagem could be updated to be usable by all chapters, but changed so that it adds 1 to the number of shots on bolt weapons.

Here's one that I was thinking could replace the poor tactical flexibility stratagem;

Tactical Flexibility 1CP
When using this stratagem, a Tactical Squad or Intercessor Squad may choose one of the following during the phase or turn specified;
--In your Shooting phase, up to 2 models may shoot twice this turn, but must fire at the same target (can be a separate target for each model). May not use with bolter drill.
--In your Shooting phase, all models in the unit may throw a grenade this turn.
--In the opponent's Charge phase, this units' overwatch hits on 5+ until the end of the opponent's turn.
--In your Movement phase, this unit may fall back and still shoot, but subtract 1 from hit rolls this turn (ultramarines ignore hit penalty).
--At the end of your turn, if this unit secures an objective marker (defend or secure objectives) roll a D6, on a 3+ score an extra VP.

The grenade Strategem should be generic to any Marine unit.

Dandelion wrote:
The problem is not the boltguns themselves, it's the marines holding them. To a sister or guardsmen the boltgun is actually pretty good.

It's good for the marines too, the problem is that the marines need more than just for boltguns to be improved in line with similar weapons. I definitely do think they need more durability as well; my personal preference is to make 2 wounds and 2 attacks the basic statline, and aim for 16 points or so basic. I've always favoured marines being more expensive, and hate that they're gradually getting cheaper. With two wounds you don't gain any firepower, but you lose it at a slower rate against most weapons, while two attacks emphasises that they're not a gun-line army and shouldn't worry so much about engaging things in combat.

So yeah, I'm not saying boltguns are the only fix, just pointing out an alternative fix to boltguns being a touch too weak. I don't think any fix to marines should focus on their weapons or armour, as it will only raise questions of why other units with the same equipment don't get it.

One other possibility is to make marines a little more mobile; I had hoped that with the return of movement values we'd actually see regular humans get a bit slower, but that didn't happen. Marines however are tall, and their power armour with black carapace specifically enables them to move almost completely unencumbered while wearing it, so being a tiny big faster could make sense on that basis, but I think we've probably missed the opportunity to do it this edition as really it should have been done by making basic human movement 5".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I figured the rerolling of a save reflected that a bit better to be honest but I'm not opposed to the extra hit. I just don't think it works for fluff as well. Mechanically...eh.

Well part of the problem people were arguing on that thread is that boltguns (or perhaps generally units equipped with them) aren't great at dealing with big hordes, so the extra hit is partly to offset that. I do think it works fluff-wise though; the idea here is that you're hitting targets other than those you were specifically aiming at, so more hits is a more direct way to do it. Changes that affect saves suggest more that the bolts are armour piercing but blasts are really about splash damage so IMO the hits make a bit more sense, but I'm obviously very biased

I don't think the Bolt round is exploding that big for that to make as much sense is all.

Dandelion wrote:
The problem is not the boltguns themselves, it's the marines holding them. To a sister or guardsmen the boltgun is actually pretty good.

Sisters units are based around their special weapons - bolters were only relevant in the 3e book. Guardsmen are based around being cheap, numerous, and getting lots and lots of shots.

Yeah any comparison between sisters and Marines only shows even clearer how terrible Marines are.