A quick and dirty fix for Marines: Astartes Built

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
So I was just running the numbers in my head and if Terminators lost their 5++ and instead ignored 2 points of Ap they would be significantly more durable. A 5++ is incredibly unreliable but getting shot by that DE disintegrator cannon, and ending up with a 3+ Armour save would be pretty powerful, oh but then you're in cover so it's back to a 2+.

I don't know how game breaking this would be but I know I'd have a unit of terminators in my army. Plus GK might not be the worst codex with that buff.

I was also thinking standard marines would ignore 1 Ap, I know it's been said a lot but I think it would help

You do know how ridiculous Blightlord Terminators and Scarab Occult Terminators would be right? You guys don't think of the consequences.

It. Isn't. What. Terminators. Need. Because. They're. Already. The. Most. Durable. They. Have. Been. In. Years.

They need the offense increase.

Riiiight. No. Shinning spears are the most durable they have been in years - terminators are about the same - which per point is at the pathetic level. For their points and granted they are really slow - they need durability and offensive buffs. They might need a slight point increase with these rules but it's what their unit profiles need to be to be useful.

A straight up 4++ for terms to go along with an army wide -1 ap for all weapons shooting at an adept astartes infantry/dreadnought/biker (and choas marines) would be a great place to start. Then probably remove their -1 to hits with powerfists and give them the old relentless rule and special ammo on their storm bolters. Then they are worth their points.

Things like Scarab Occults should gain a rule that they reduce the damage of a weapon by 1 and combined with all is dust they would have a 3++ save against any weapon not doing 3 or more damage.

There are entire armies sporting 4++ saves on every unit. For a terminator not to have one themselves is straight nonsense.

That's just Harlequins (Where most people were just fine with the 5++, so I'll concede on that one) and Custodes (who should have better armor anyway, so there isn't a reason to complain).

Mostly the suggestions I've seen are nuts. Simple as that.

That's why I'm for actually showing their real Vet status on Paladins, Blightlord and Deathshroud, Scarab Occult, Tactical and Assault Terminators, Chaos Terminators, and Deathwing/Deathwing Knights by giving them ALL WS/BS2+, instead of the asinine and frankly obscenely scaling suggestions I keep seeing from you people.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I'm extremely confident that most people run into more Poison, Bolt and Las than Disintigrators and Plas.

You clearly haven't played against Dark Eldar at all then. Xeno is insane with their changes but this post is playing straight up ignorance. If something is allowed to do that, it NEEDS to be fixed.

Remember a while back someone created a build-a-vehicle, and Pergrine broke it so that you could get something for NEGATIVE points, and the creator shrugged it off because "nobody would do that"?

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
So I was just running the numbers in my head and if Terminators lost their 5++ and instead ignored 2 points of Ap they would be significantly more durable. A 5++ is incredibly unreliable but getting shot by that DE disintegrator cannon, and ending up with a 3+ Armour save would be pretty powerful, oh but then you're in cover so it's back to a 2+.

I don't know how game breaking this would be but I know I'd have a unit of terminators in my army. Plus GK might not be the worst codex with that buff.

I was also thinking standard marines would ignore 1 Ap, I know it's been said a lot but I think it would help

You do know how ridiculous Blightlord Terminators and Scarab Occult Terminators would be right? You guys don't think of the consequences.

It. Isn't. What. Terminators. Need. Because. They're. Already. The. Most. Durable. They. Have. Been. In. Years.

They need the offense increase.

Riiiight. No. Shinning spears are the most durable they have been in years - terminators are about the same - which per point is at the pathetic level. For their points and granted they are really slow - they need durability and offensive buffs. They might need a slight point increase with these rules but it's what their unit profiles need to be to be useful.

A straight up 4++ for terms to go along with an army wide -1 ap for all weapons shooting at an adept astartes infantry/dreadnought/biker (and choas marines) would be a great place to start. Then probably remove their -1 to hits with powerfists and give them the old relentless rule and special ammo on their storm bolters. Then they are worth their points.

Things like Scarab Occults should gain a rule that they reduce the damage of a weapon by 1 and combined with all is dust they would have a 3++ save against any weapon not doing 3 or more damage.

There are entire armies sporting 4++ saves on every unit. For a terminator not to have one themselves is straight nonsense.

That's just Harlequins (Where most people were just fine with the 5++, so I'll concede on that one) and Custodes (who should have better armor anyway, so there isn't a reason to complain).

Mostly the suggestions I've seen are nuts. Simple as that.

That's why I'm for actually showing their real Vet status on Paladins, Blightlord and Deathshroud, Scarab Occult, Tactical and Assault Terminators, Chaos Terminators, and Deathwing/Deathwing Knights by giving them ALL WS/BS2+, instead of the asinine and frankly obscenely scaling suggestions I keep seeing from you people.

They aren't nuts. The suggestions I made - A custode would still be quite superior to a tactical terminator while not costing much more than him. He would still have +1T and +1 W as well as having the same invo save - superior close combat - superior movement. They can even take a freaking storm sheild if they want to tank like bosses.

I think people have just gotten so used to these profiles that they think they are some kind of gold standard - they aren't.

What good is bs2+ ws2+ gonna do for terms? They will hit a little harder in CC (but they'll never get there) and they'll hit with a few more bolter shots and assault cannons...this is an incredibly minor buff for a unit that is paying the majority of it's points for having a 2+ save and 2 wounds - both of which are easily ignored by very common and spamable weapons all through out the game. People use those weapons too because they are also great at killing jetbikes (and they offer reliable damage to EVERYTHING in the game except wave serpents).

You made the statement that terminators are tougher than they have ever been. Currently they only get a 4+ save against a battle cannon and 2 out of 3 damage rolls kill him - even a 1 wound terminator had better survivability against a battle cannon in 7th - because he got a 2 + save against it.
With my suggested changes of -1 ap to all astartes - they would get a 3+ save against a battle cannon. This would be similar to their 7th edition surivability against them.
Currently an autocannon kills terms better than it did in 7th. Giving only a 3+ save instead of a 2+.
Plasma is exactly the same against it.
Las cannons are only slightly worse than because you can roll a 1 for damage against them.
Disses are now dedicated terminator kills where before I think they only had ap3 and sucked against them. They had a ap2 blast I think - but blast sucked and you know it.

The only thing terms got a real buff against is small arms...who cares? If I can kill a 200 point unit with special weapons - why would I use my chaff fire against it if i didn't have to?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
fraser1191 wrote:
So I was just running the numbers in my head and if Terminators lost their 5++ and instead ignored 2 points of Ap they would be significantly more durable. A 5++ is incredibly unreliable but getting shot by that DE disintegrator cannon, and ending up with a 3+ Armour save would be pretty powerful, oh but then you're in cover so it's back to a 2+.

I don't know how game breaking this would be but I know I'd have a unit of terminators in my army. Plus GK might not be the worst codex with that buff.

I was also thinking standard marines would ignore 1 Ap, I know it's been said a lot but I think it would help

You do know how ridiculous Blightlord Terminators and Scarab Occult Terminators would be right? You guys don't think of the consequences.

It. Isn't. What. Terminators. Need. Because. They're. Already. The. Most. Durable. They. Have. Been. In. Years.

They need the offense increase.

Riiiight. No. Shinning spears are the most durable they have been in years - terminators are about the same - which per point is at the pathetic level. For their points and granted they are really slow - they need durability and offensive buffs. They might need a slight point increase with these rules but it's what their unit profiles need to be to be useful.

A straight up 4++ for terms to go along with an army wide -1 ap for all weapons shooting at an adept astartes infantry/dreadnought/biker (and choas marines) would be a great place to start. Then probably remove their -1 to hits with powerfists and give them the old relentless rule and special ammo on their storm bolters. Then they are worth their points.

Things like Scarab Occults should gain a rule that they reduce the damage of a weapon by 1 and combined with all is dust they would have a 3++ save against any weapon not doing 3 or more damage.

There are entire armies sporting 4++ saves on every unit. For a terminator not to have one themselves is straight nonsense.

That's just Harlequins (Where most people were just fine with the 5++, so I'll concede on that one) and Custodes (who should have better armor anyway, so there isn't a reason to complain).

Mostly the suggestions I've seen are nuts. Simple as that.

That's why I'm for actually showing their real Vet status on Paladins, Blightlord and Deathshroud, Scarab Occult, Tactical and Assault Terminators, Chaos Terminators, and Deathwing/Deathwing Knights by giving them ALL WS/BS2+, instead of the asinine and frankly obscenely scaling suggestions I keep seeing from you people.

They aren't nuts. The suggestions I made - A custode would still be quite superior to a tactical terminator while not costing much more than him. He would still have +1T and +1 W as well as having the same invo save - superior close combat - superior movement. They can even take a freaking storm sheild if they want to tank like bosses.

I think people have just gotten so used to these profiles that they think they are some kind of gold standard - they aren't.

What good is bs2+ ws2+ gonna do for terms? They will hit a little harder in CC (but they'll never get there) and they'll hit with a few more bolter shots and assault cannons...this is an incredibly minor buff for a unit that is paying the majority of it's points for having a 2+ save and 2 wounds - both of which are easily ignored by very common and spamable weapons all through out the game. People use those weapons too because they are also great at killing jetbikes (and they offer reliable damage to EVERYTHING in the game except wave serpents).

You're not serious are you? A straight up ignoring the first AP and the 4++ makes them much better (and Custodes only get the 4++ in a pure detachment, which is sorta downside and not).

The WS/BS2+ makes them more independent and less reliant on rerolls, effectively gives them Relentless while helping all the other range weapons (and those Heavy Weapons if standing still), while giving help to those Power Fists and Thunder Hammers you guys love while not ignoring literally every other melee weapon and making them non-choices.

Any issue with spamming of weapons is the issue of that unit's profile, not the durability of the Terminator, which is finally the most durable it's been in years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're also complaining about just a few weapons. They're more durable to SEVERAL weapons barring those very few instances.

**Xenomancers**

"Custodes only get the 4++ in a pure detachment"
Come on dude - the 4++ is just what they have - you would never not take them in a pure detachment.

Yeah - but you are saying they are more durable than ever now. They really aren't. They have Crap durability now - and they had crap durability then.

**pique311**

LunarSol wrote:
I do feel like the big failure with 8th's AP system is not fully taking advantage of it. A more granular system lets you use the 2+ save a lot more liberally. I would have started by putting that on Marines and giving Bolters -1 AP. If you really run into problems with lasguns and such being completely ineffective, give them a -1 on rolls that roll a 6+ to wound or something. Or I suppose they could just gives marines an extra wound and attack and maybe give their boltguns that -1 AP and 6" of range.

Primaris were the "solution" but really is a covered screw-you-buy-more-models for classic SM players. To add to your point, yes, you're right. In previous editions power armor felt like that, armor; you could tank low ap shots in open terrain, but if a plasma got a wound on you, that's it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

fraser1191 wrote:
skchsan wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'm increasingly convinced that there is no such rule/stat change.
I don't think this thread is necessarily about making marines worth taking but rather justifying the cost.

Just as you say, no matter what you do, tacs wont be worth taking ever unless it goes down to somewhere around 11 points per model.

Okay I mentioned this before.

Most marine players are probably still going to use scouts to get the alternate deployment.

But this is probably the better choice as it's now do I want alternate deployment or a better save

Firstly, this comment is not targeted at you, but everyone from this topic. I don't hold anything against you, it's just that a particular comment on your reply triggered this short "rant" from me.
Honestly, I "don't care" about what other players would take despite some changes to SM. With this argument, you are focusing too much on pure competitive play. Many players don't play or care about competitive, regular matched play (and also narrative) should be the main focus for changes. Yes, "marine players" could pick this and that exact unit count and do this all the time to win. Reality is people usually play with what they like and have painted so the argument that scouts will be better than marines is very poor for me. I play SM because they are cool, I really like them and enjoy painting them. Now, proper balancing on a standard game is what's missing for marines, not super-competitive.

Anyway that's my take on this, and generally any proposed rules and changes for 40k. People could chill about competitive sometimes.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
"Custodes only get the 4++ in a pure detachment"
Come on dude - the 4++ is just what they have - you would never not take them in a pure detachment.

Yeah - but you are saying they are more durable than ever now. They really aren't. They have Crap durability now - and they had crap durability then.

Except they DO have more durability compared to previous editions. For example:
1. Literally ALL basic arms they are twice as durable barring the Necron ones as there is two more wounds
2. Lascannons having a 1/6 chance to flounder
3. Melta Guns have a 1/6 chance to flounder
4. Plasma, actually, until you decide to overcharge
5. Tau Plasma wounds less
6. Starcannons wound less AND have a 1/3 chance to flounder
7. Grav fires less, wounds less, and has a 1/3 chance to flounder

The list goes on, and that's just for the Terminators with nothing special for durability. Iron Hands Terminators, Scarab Occult, and Deathshroud/Blightlord do a lot better vs all those things AND more.

**Xenomancers**

Nah any weapon with -1 AP does equal or more damage to a 2 wound termy as AP 4 did vs a 2+. There are tons of examples of that.

Bolt rifles/ gauss weapons / hotshot lasguns / krak grenades/ ect.

Any weapon that was previously ap 3 or 4 is now AP -1/ -2 destroys terminators where it didn't before - esp if it has multi damage.
Rocket launchers / battle cannons/ ion cannons/ rocket pods/ special ammo bolters/ breacher guns.

It's almost like for every advantage they got - they became weaker to something else. This does not qualify as being tougher than they were were. They are just as crap as ever. The big difference here is they got 2 wounds - but then they gave all the weapons they were weak against flat 2 damage...

**Dandelion**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're not serious are you? A straight up ignoring the first AP and the 4++ makes them much better (and Custodes only get the 4++ in a pure detachment, which is sorta downside and not).

Well, since the Battle Brothers rule, you can't take custodes outside of a custodes detachment now anyway so...

**Bharring**

I'm no expert at math, but I'm fairly sure anything AP-1 with D:1 is no more deadlier to Termies than it was. Stuff beyond that (AP-2 that was AP3 or worse, or AP-1 with D:more than 1) kills Termies faster.

And even that's assuming it's in the open. A TH/SS Termie unit in cover is actually quite hard to shift. Not hard enough for the points, but much harder than in 7th.

**Martel732**

Ap -1 clears double the wounds of ap 0 vs 2+ armor.

**Dandelion**

Martel732 wrote:
Ap -1 clears double the wounds of ap 0 vs 2+ armor.

Termies have two wounds now, so overall durability is not worse against D1.

**Martel732**

Not d1, but tons of ap -1 weapons are 2 damage.

**Xenomancers**

Just ask yourself this question. Why don't people complain about Custodes but complain about terms? Custodes are worth their points - terminators are not. How you chose to make terms worth those points is up for debate. However - just making them bs2+ ws2+ is not going to be enough.

IMO durability is their main problem - their damage is also low but upping their durability increases their damage. They are also the most elite veterans in the army - they should have special ammo in those storm bolters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ap -1 clears double the wounds of ap 0 vs 2+ armor.

Termies have two wounds now, so overall durability is not worse against D1.

It is against things that used to be ap4 and ap 3. Those because ap-1 and ap -2 repectfully. Things that used to be AP 3 are now great weapons for killing terminators.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Nah any weapon with -1 AP does equal or more damage to a 2 wound termy as AP 4 did vs a 2+. There are tons of examples of that.

Bolt rifles/ gauss weapons / hotshot lasguns / krak grenades/ ect.

Any weapon that was previously ap 3 or 4 is now AP -1/ -2 destroys terminators where it didn't before - esp if it has multi damage.
Rocket launchers / battle cannons/ ion cannons/ rocket pods/ special ammo bolters/ breacher guns.

It's almost like for every advantage they got - they became weaker to something else. This does not qualify as being tougher than they were were. They are just as crap as ever. The big difference here is they got 2 wounds - but then they gave all the weapons they were weak against flat 2 damage...

So they're equally durable vs several weapons or more durable. Don't care. Storm Shields fix that immediate issue if you care so much.

Bolt Rifles are also a new weapon, but the closest comparison would be Krak Rounds for Deathwatch, which, would you look at that, they're at the same durability because of that second wound! Cool beans. Next.

Krak grenades wound less and have a 1/3 chance to flounder. In 7th, a Krak thrown by a Marine is 0.09 wounds. For 8th, you get 0.14 until you apply that random damage. Look at that! Sounds REALLY similar doesn't it?

You're only listing a couple weapons compared to my much larger list, and they're not any less durable to any special ammo outside the Vengeance rounds (Where they were equally durable to Krak Rounds and are actually more durable to Helfire. Nobody cares about the Cover rounds so...).

Sorry but the durability argument is super weak.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Ap -1 clears double the wounds of ap 0 vs 2+ armor.

Unless you have cover, in which case they're twice as durable again.

**pique311**

Bharring wrote:
I'm no expert at math, but I'm fairly sure anything AP-1 with D:1 is no more deadlier to Termies than it was. Stuff beyond that (AP-2 that was AP3 or worse, or AP-1 with D:more than 1) kills Termies faster.

And even that's assuming it's in the open. A TH/SS Termie unit in cover is actually quite hard to shift. Not hard enough for the points, but much harder than in 7th.

Well, the thing is, termies are supposed to be out there, tanking small arms and heavy weapon shots in the enemy's face, to then charge like a beast and destroy or greatly damage most things. I'd say the only viable termies for the points atm are blood angel termies with claws. Against anything below T8, using the terminator specific strategem, you can get 16 attacks, hitting on 3+ re-roling, and wounding on 4+, re-roling. If you add a character that boosts their strenght +1, you can really do quite okay against medium targets or hordes. The only issue with this boys is the DMG1, and still, the points cost. But that strategem is very, very good

**Slayer-Fan123**

pique311 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
I'm no expert at math, but I'm fairly sure anything AP-1 with D:1 is no more deadlier to Termies than it was. Stuff beyond that (AP-2 that was AP3 or worse, or AP-1 with D:more than 1) kills Termies faster.

And even that's assuming it's in the open. A TH/SS Termie unit in cover is actually quite hard to shift. Not hard enough for the points, but much harder than in 7th.

Well, the thing is, termies are supposed to be out there, tanking small arms and heavy weapon shots in the enemy's face, to then charge like a beast and destroy or greatly damage most things. I'd say the only viable termies for the points atm are blood angel termies with claws. Against anything below T8, using the terminator specific strategem, you can get 16 attacks, hitting on 3+ re-roling, and wounding on 4+, re-roling. If you add a character that boosts their strenght +1, you can really do quite okay against medium targets or hordes. The only issue with this boys is the DMG1, and still, the points cost. But that strategem is very, very good

They're not supposed to be taking missiles and Lascannons to the face, sorry. The fluff never implied as such, just that they're durable.

**Dandelion**

Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ap -1 clears double the wounds of ap 0 vs 2+ armor.

Termies have two wounds now, so overall durability is not worse against D1.

It is against things that used to be ap4 and ap 3. Those because ap-1 and ap -2 repectfully. Things that used to be AP 3 are now great weapons for killing terminators.

Just some quick math for fun:
How many wounds to kill a terminator?

Old:
-AP4, AP3: 6
-AP2: 1.5

New: (assuming 1D)
-AP-1: 6
-AP-2: 4
-AP-3: 3
Now with 2D
- AP-1: 3
- AP-2: 2
- AP-3: 1.5

So it's not so much the AP, as it is the damage. I think 3W termies would solve their durability issue (custodes kinda prove that). No more autocannon/plasma one shots.

**jcd386**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pique311 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
I'm no expert at math, but I'm fairly sure anything AP-1 with D:1 is no more deadlier to Termies than it was. Stuff beyond that (AP-2 that was AP3 or worse, or AP-1 with D:more than 1) kills Termies faster.

And even that's assuming it's in the open. A TH/SS Termie unit in cover is actually quite hard to shift. Not hard enough for the points, but much harder than in 7th.

Well, the thing is, termies are supposed to be out there, tanking small arms and heavy weapon shots in the enemy's face, to then charge like a beast and destroy or greatly damage most things. I'd say the only viable termies for the points atm are blood angel termies with claws. Against anything below T8, using the terminator specific strategem, you can get 16 attacks, hitting on 3+ re-roling, and wounding on 4+, re-roling. If you add a character that boosts their strenght +1, you can really do quite okay against medium targets or hordes. The only issue with this boys is the DMG1, and still, the points cost. But that strategem is very, very good

They're not supposed to be taking missiles and Lascannons to the face, sorry. The fluff never implied as such, just that they're durable.

But I think they could take an auto cannons or OC plasma shot. Which is why although I think WS/BS2+ is the perfect boost to their offence, they need more defence as well.

At the risk if sounding like a broken record, making them take 1 less damage to a min of 1 would fix this better than any other suggestion imo.

**pique311**

jcd386 wrote:

At the risk if sounding like a broken record, making them take 1 less damage to a min of 1 would fix this better than any other suggestion imo.

As others have said, WS2+/BS2+ is the most reasonable short-term solution for termies. We can't really expect any more major changes this edition. We'll have to wait for 9th to see GW re-think the whole SM profiles. All because of this Primaris bois...

**Slayer-Fan123**

jcd386 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pique311 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
I'm no expert at math, but I'm fairly sure anything AP-1 with D:1 is no more deadlier to Termies than it was. Stuff beyond that (AP-2 that was AP3 or worse, or AP-1 with D:more than 1) kills Termies faster.

And even that's assuming it's in the open. A TH/SS Termie unit in cover is actually quite hard to shift. Not hard enough for the points, but much harder than in 7th.

Well, the thing is, termies are supposed to be out there, tanking small arms and heavy weapon shots in the enemy's face, to then charge like a beast and destroy or greatly damage most things. I'd say the only viable termies for the points atm are blood angel termies with claws. Against anything below T8, using the terminator specific strategem, you can get 16 attacks, hitting on 3+ re-roling, and wounding on 4+, re-roling. If you add a character that boosts their strenght +1, you can really do quite okay against medium targets or hordes. The only issue with this boys is the DMG1, and still, the points cost. But that strategem is very, very good

They're not supposed to be taking missiles and Lascannons to the face, sorry. The fluff never implied as such, just that they're durable.

But I think they could take an auto cannons or OC plasma shot. Which is why although I think WS/BS2+ is the perfect boost to their offence, they need more defence as well.

At the risk if sounding like a broken record, making them take 1 less damage to a min of 1 would fix this better than any other suggestion imo.

Which doesn't scale well because of Blightlord, Deathshroud, and Scarab Occult Terminators.

**jcd386**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pique311 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
I'm no expert at math, but I'm fairly sure anything AP-1 with D:1 is no more deadlier to Termies than it was. Stuff beyond that (AP-2 that was AP3 or worse, or AP-1 with D:more than 1) kills Termies faster.

And even that's assuming it's in the open. A TH/SS Termie unit in cover is actually quite hard to shift. Not hard enough for the points, but much harder than in 7th.

Well, the thing is, termies are supposed to be out there, tanking small arms and heavy weapon shots in the enemy's face, to then charge like a beast and destroy or greatly damage most things. I'd say the only viable termies for the points atm are blood angel termies with claws. Against anything below T8, using the terminator specific strategem, you can get 16 attacks, hitting on 3+ re-roling, and wounding on 4+, re-roling. If you add a character that boosts their strenght +1, you can really do quite okay against medium targets or hordes. The only issue with this boys is the DMG1, and still, the points cost. But that strategem is very, very good

They're not supposed to be taking missiles and Lascannons to the face, sorry. The fluff never implied as such, just that they're durable.

But I think they could take an auto cannons or OC plasma shot. Which is why although I think WS/BS2+ is the perfect boost to their offence, they need more defence as well.

At the risk if sounding like a broken record, making them take 1 less damage to a min of 1 would fix this better than any other suggestion imo.

Which doesn't scale well because of Blightlord, Deathshroud, and Scarab Occult Terminators.

I don't see why not. If they were suddenly too durable (seems unlikely) then points could be adjusted as needed.

**skchsan**

Lots of things used to insta kill terminators prior to 8th ed. Simple fix is to tone down plasmaguns amd plasma pustols to only deal 1D at all profiles.

Everything that insta kills termies in 8th ed also used to insta kill termies in the past EXCEPT for over charged plasma.

**Ice_can**

skchsan wrote:
Lots of things used to insta kill terminators prior to 8th ed. Simple fix is to tone down plasmaguns amd plasma pustols to only deal 1D at all profiles.

Everything that insta kills termies in 8th ed also used to insta kill termies in the past EXCEPT for over charged plasma.

This would help them survive, which the desperately need to stand any chance of being worth their points.

I get what some people are saying but your getting very close to making the same mistakes GW did when the produced the first 8th edition codex's. Your introducing too many changes at once to have a chance of predicting the outcome of all of the changes combined with each other.

As much as it sucks seeing a unit you'd love to be able to play be unplayable, going to knee jerk reactionary overreaction won't help find a balanced solution.

Marines will need a few things fixed before an appropriate points cost can be allocated.

1 undercosted overcharge plasma needs to die. S6 S7 Flat 1 damage is a fairer representation of its points cost.

2 bolt weapons need to be worth taking and better at anti hord

3 vets and terminators need better damage output for their points.

4 All armies need to be less dependent upon castleing for aura buffs( this is the thing I hate most about 8th edition it may work in AoS but it feels terrible in 40k)

5 points need to be updated. The issue is it isn't reasonable to do all of the above in one book as it would be based on guess work. But with the current release cycle your talking about a year with what ever rules or non they include in CA2018 of being unplayable or OP filth.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of upgrading bolters, I had the following thought while reading some fluff pages.

Give Non Deathwatch Astartes Bolt Weapons the following rule

MASS REACTIVE
When a unit hit with this weapons fails ita saving throw this generates and additional hit. Role to wound and save as per this weapons profile. These wounds can not generate additional hits.

It's a little more involved that I think GW would have liked at the start of 8th edition.

However it feels like it should make the bolter better against hoards while not buffing it significantly against heavier targets.

**Slayer-Fan123**

If you wanna make Plasma S6->7 with Overcharge, sure, but you're not going to make it do just 1 damage. You make it from Anti-Elite to basically bad. Needing Lascannons to kill Custodes after all that is a no-no.

**jcd386**

I'd much rather have plasma stay deadly but blow up more than nerf it.

Risking something to do lots of damage is cool. But right now it's not a risk, because of the rerolls. So to me that's the part that needs to change.

**BaconCatBug**

Plasma just needs to turn overcharging into picking one of +1S, -1AP or +1D, not +1S AND +1D, and to cause a mortal wound instead of slaying.

**Slayer-Fan123**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma just needs to turn overcharging into picking one of +1S, -1AP or +1D, not +1S AND +1D, and to cause a mortal wound instead of slaying.

So make it useless?

Nobody is gonna use Plasma like that.

**Mchagen**

This is what my group is currently play-testing for space marines. Some of it is about where it should be, some of it isn't quite right yet. There's more that needs to be done beyond a simple 'fix marine armor save' or 'improve boltguns.' The codex is in bad shape in many areas.

Spoiler:

**skchsan**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma just needs to turn overcharging into picking one of +1S, -1AP or +1D, not +1S AND +1D, and to cause a mortal wound instead of slaying.

So make it useless?

Nobody is gonna use Plasma like that.

The neww plasma currently stands at where grav weaponry was in 6/7th ed. It was so undercosted for what it does that it didn't make sense not to take it. Plasmas needs to be toned down so that it's not auto include. Plasmas out perform any other weapons point for point than any other weapons by a large margin except for stratagemed ML and HB and grav cannon.

**Slayer-Fan123**

skchsan wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Plasma just needs to turn overcharging into picking one of +1S, -1AP or +1D, not +1S AND +1D, and to cause a mortal wound instead of slaying.

So make it useless?

Nobody is gonna use Plasma like that.
The neww plasma currently stands at where grav weaponry was in 6/7th ed. It was so undercosted for what it does that it didn't make sense not to take it. Plasmas needs to be toned down so that it's not auto include. Plasmas out perform any other weapons point for point than any other weapons by a large margin except for stratagemed ML and HB and grav cannon.

The problem you forget is that nerfing plasma won't make Melta or Flamer weapons actually good at their jobs. You'd still take Plasma; you'd just be angry about it. There's a huge difference between doing what Plasma does now and what Grav did back then (and even then, the problem was the Cannon getting Shred basically).