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Would harlequinns be a good thing to combine with dark eldar? I don't want to do eldar with dark eldar but if everybody's doing soup i may think about harlequinns since they're not a full army anyway and their aesthetic is sorta like dark eldar anyway.

Harlequins are a full army... and yes they're be good with Drukhari

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.

All one needs to do is read through the ITC champions missions and you will understand why Knights are dominating. The missions are so unbalanced. Everything is titled toward killing things each turn and worse yet, killing MORE then your opponent for bonus points. This makes MSU armies weak, and armies with 4-6 large knights incredibly busted. If DE draw a 6 knight list they basically auto lose unless they are playing a terrible opponent that clocks out somehow.

The other factor is how armies are classified in ITC, because so many people soup it up, unless DE are the larger detachment the army won't be considered of that faction. If I heard correctly their were alot of armies that had craftworld eldar with a kabal spearhead for example in order to unlock ravager spam and Agents of Vect.

Mostly it's the missions though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vindicare0412 wrote:
I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?

I own 22 grots and 5 talos total plus 30 wrack in case the ever stop sucking lol.

Found immense success with them combined with kabal but less so pure. Against certain matchups going all in on prophets of flesh will straight up troll them, just murderize them but the issue comes once you start drawing fast armies that also fly. Especially the mirror match, venom spam for example will flat out table a coven army. It's too easy to run a small 5 man kabal unit in front of your advance to movement block and just keep shooting turn after turn.

That said, depending on your meta a pure coven list can be quite the foil. In the end you will have more fun however if you pick two styles. Generally Kabal is the perfect mate since cult does the same stuff as coven but frankly worse. Cult get speed at the cost of punch and durability which isn't worth it. Coven really need the range support. You can always supplement that with scourge mandrakes and FW however. But those units are expensive and you want cheap objective grabbers. Kabalytes are the cheapest.

I keep talking about Missions lists as well, the more we talk about it, hopefully the more people understand how tilted tournaments really are, they completely kill many types of lists and favour other types. Tournaments are NOT balanced, GW's CA/Main missions IMO are more balanced than many of these tournaments (tho local meta's you can do 5-6 turns thats a big part of it) some armies are better late game, and other better mid, while some are best early game, due to time restrictions, some armies and armies styles cant even be played.

Also, i love coven, i play them a lot, my Local they are leaps and bounds better than Venom spam. I have done Pure Coven armies (Dark Creed Supreme with Reapers and PoF for the other 1600pts) the Reapers able to snipe is just insane, and stopping units from Advancing is game changing, Late game when you need an objective (or just turn 2-3 for Mid game objective missions) stopping Advancements on 2-3 units has won me the game.

Yea I have felt the same. The missions in 8th and especially in chapter approved are actually very balanced. I still prefer eternal war over maelstrom due to the random draw issues. But having played ITC I get super annoyed with how much the missions dictate which factions, style and lists will even do well before you ever drop a model on the table. They had good reason to make their own missons 5 years ago, but now I feel like pride or some sense of tradition is clouding their heads a bit. They seriously should just run the eternal war missions from chapter approved (maelstrom sucks)

I would not go as far as to say malestorm sucks, i enjoy it a lot when we are talking about friendly games as it can really force a player to take both speed units for quick capturing of random objectives / stationary hold units for grabbing objectives early and holding onto them to make life difficult for your opponent / and other units that may not be as useful in a serious setting (one of my favorite tricks is to drop an empty drop pod on an objective just to make my opponents life miserable because who wants to waste shots on an empty drop pod but its on an objective so... damn it...)

BUT thats friendly games. Serious Tournament games it has no place, and i totally agree that the current GW missions do well for the most part. I prefer constant scoring on those missions though, if you score at the end of every battle round going 2nd can be advantageous, as can taking a strong lead early on then getting tabled. When tabled the game ends, but you dont necessarily lose. If your ahead on VP when the game ends you win. If your going 2nd you have the opportunity to push your opponent off objectives before they score, but you dont have such a weakness. When the scoring happens only in the last turn these things can either not matter (i tabled you in the 2nd round so i win because you cant score) or become almost a non issue (you only have 1 squad of 6 guardsman left, i have half my army, guess you cant get me off of everything can you at this point?).

I had a game with my DE recently vs Guard, i won but due to him going 2nd and the scoring at the end of every round he was ahead at the end of the 4th round by 4 VP. I has only lost about 55% of my force, but he was down to 2 mortar teams and 3 command squads with sniper rifles, nothing my units really had to fear. Still, i only won by 2VP at the end of the 5th.

But i guess this is a bit off topic. :p

Hello dark friends! Looking for advice.

I'm willing to start a 1500 points drukhari force. Could you please give me some advice on which units should I buy? (Competitive)

Thanks

Very broad question. First you need to decide what part of DE you want to focus on. Ravagers, Razorwings raiders and venoms are all popular. Grotesques are great if you want to go that route.

FarseerReborn wrote:
Hello dark friends! Looking for advice.

I'm willing to start a 1500 points drukhari force. Could you please give me some advice on which units should I buy? (Competitive)

Thanks

The Kabal subfaction is most likely the best places to start (Cults and Covens are good to but take some learning)

Starting out I'd say;

A couple of Archons, your basic box of tricks HQ
Two or Three Ravagers, essentially the DE 'tank', possibly undercosted with fine dakka choices
One or Two Razorwing Jet Fighters, arguably the best flyer in 8th
A fair number of Kabalites (20-30Ish), criminally underpointed grunts with lots of weapon choices
Sufficient Raiders or Venoms to protect and transport your Kabalites

That's somewhere round 1500ish

Has anyone tried a very heavy infantry list?

I was thinking something of about 120 dudes supported by a Black Heart Spearhead.

Warriors alone have 3 special weapons so I would think it would have enough firepower to really hurt people.

They would just need a frontline of either Wyches or Wracks to give them space to work.

I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?

Emeraldw wrote:
Has anyone tried a very heavy infantry list?

I was thinking something of about 120 dudes supported by a Black Heart Spearhead.

Warriors alone have 3 special weapons so I would think it would have enough firepower to really hurt people.

They would just need a frontline of either Wyches or Wracks to give them space to work.

Are you thinking of a footslogging list or a list with ~12 Raiders?

My wife and i will start with Eldar for 2vs2 games against a imperial Soup with most IG. I like Drukhari and she the Craftworlds. Now i saw here that i have to choose a subfraction before i order models. Isnt it possible to play all models from Drukhari together in one Team? Or is there a Rule for detatchments for this subfractions?

Meow wrote:
My wife and i will start with Eldar for 2vs2 games against a imperial Soup with most IG. I like Drukhari and she the Craftworlds. Now i saw here that i have to choose a subfraction before i order models. Isnt it possible to play all models from Drukhari together in one Team? Or is there a Rule for detatchments for this subfractions?

You can play Covens, Kabals and Cults in the same army, you just need to have them in separate detachments.

Sterling191 wrote:
I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?

Beside cheese-tastic Dark Creed Tantalus antics Prophets is probaly the best, make Talos, Grots and Wrack fantastically resilient (well by Eldar standards)

Sterling191 wrote:
I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?

I've just played a tournament last weekend with just a small Prophet of Flesh detachment with 3 taloi and an heamy (rest of my army was the usual kabal list). I simple ran the Taloi as fast as possible and they were golden for me. The taloi being T6 (7 if near heamy) with 3+ armour and 4+ FnP... highly, highly disruptive units. My opponents, almost in every case, were trying to shoot at my Ravagers and were surprised at how hard taloi hits.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:


Beside cheese-tastic Dark Creed Tantalus antics Prophets is probaly the best, make Talos, Grots and Wrack fantastically resilient (well by Eldar standards)

Yeah the murder catamaran is well outside my investment range (both in points and coin) for what I'm looking to do. Thanks.

 vipoid wrote:

Emeraldw wrote:
Has anyone tried a very heavy infantry list?

I was thinking something of about 120 dudes supported by a Black Heart Spearhead.

Warriors alone have 3 special weapons so I would think it would have enough firepower to really hurt people.

They would just need a frontline of either Wyches or Wracks to give them space to work.

Are you thinking of a footslogging list or a list with ~12 Raiders?

Foot slogging. Does the extra work the units perform outweigh the loss of mobility?

 whembly wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
I'm starting to look into Coven units to supplement a conversion project I've begun and wondered - is there any point going anything other than Prophets of Flesh with Urien buffing the bejeezus out of everything? Or am I missing something stupidly obvious?

I've just played a tournament last weekend with just a small Prophet of Flesh detachment with 3 taloi and an heamy (rest of my army was the usual kabal list). I simple ran the Taloi as fast as possible and they were golden for me. The taloi being T6 (7 if near heamy) with 3+ armour and 4+ FnP... highly, highly disruptive units. My opponents, almost in every case, were trying to shoot at my Ravagers and were surprised at how hard taloi hits.

Punching as hard as bright/dark lances on a flying platform with T7 and a straight up 50% chance of shrugging of anything that gets through (plus PfP) is part of why I'm looking going this direction.

Plan is to run two Taloi, a Grot team, plus two MSU Wrack pods with Urien (also a pair of Haywire Scourge teams) as support for a mobile Craftworld gunline.

High everyone - i'm looking at starting DE. I don't want to really soup in Eldar, as i generally prefer "mono" faction forces, and I could use some help / advice getting started.

I have a lot of experience in competitive play, and I know DE are good, but that's not entirely why i'm picking them, I also like the concept and all that jazz, and I have a very good idea for how to paint them (I have discovered a love of airbrushing so that is also part of it).

So, i'm not chasing the meta here, just starting a force i've had my eye on for some time. It also helps that I have been getting my teeth kicked in by knights standing back up and would love to just laugh as i vect away their dreams.

All that said, i'm looking at essentially making a list that takes advantage of very good transports, vehicles, and troops that DE have to offer.

I see myself drifting towards a brigade.

HQ
2xArchon
Drazhar or Haemonculus

Troops
6x Kabalite Warriors x5 (Blaster)

Elites
3x Incubi x5
OR Grotesques

FA
Scourge x5 (Haywire)
Scourge x5 (Shredder)
Scourge x5 (Splinter Cannon)

Heavy Support
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)

Transport
3x Raider (Disintigrator)
3x Venom (Splinter Cannon)


Of course taking one detachment might be stupid, because you have to be Kabal of the Black Heart. Double battalion is probably far superior. Anyway, some advice would be handy

Thanks folks

Emeraldw wrote:
Foot slogging. Does the extra work the units perform outweigh the loss of mobility?

I think the difficulty will be in supporting them.

If you want 120 Kabalites, then you're looking at one of the following:

1) A Brigade with 12 units of 10.
2) A Battalion with 6 units of 20.
3) Two Battalions, each with 6 units of 10.

#1 Is going to be very expensive (You're looking at ~2400pts minimum).

#2 Is probably the easiest in terms of list building, but will be unwieldy on the table and extremely vulnerable to morale. Might have potential with Obsidian Rose.

#3 Requires you to take the festering pile of crap known as Drazhar, or else lose your Kabal bonus for one of the battalions.

If the 120 models is supposed to be Kabalites and other units as well, then you could take a Kabal Battalion (6 units of 10) and then add a Patrol (3 more squads of 10), and then also add a Coven or Wych Patrol/Battalion, which will probably be the best option.

The thing is, though, you've got very little support. The reroll 1s aura from the Archons really don't compare to the infantry buffs available to armies like Guard or Orks. Stratagems might help, but I think you'll definitely miss the 'free' (in terms of CPs) toolbox of Orders or such.


I think it could be fun, but I'd be wary of buying models for this army without first testing it with proxies or such.

 Marmatag wrote:
High everyone - i'm looking at starting DE. I don't want to really soup in Eldar, as i generally prefer "mono" faction forces, and I could use some help / advice getting started.

I have a lot of experience in competitive play, and I know DE are good, but that's not entirely why i'm picking them, I also like the concept and all that jazz, and I have a very good idea for how to paint them (I have discovered a love of airbrushing so that is also part of it).

So, i'm not chasing the meta here, just starting a force i've had my eye on for some time. It also helps that I have been getting my teeth kicked in by knights standing back up and would love to just laugh as i vect away their dreams.

All that said, i'm looking at essentially making a list that takes advantage of very good transports, vehicles, and troops that DE have to offer.

I see myself drifting towards a brigade.

Spoiler:

HQ
2xArchon
Drazhar or Haemonculus

Troops
6x Kabalite Warriors x5 (Blaster)

Elites
3x Incubi x5
OR Grotesques

FA
Scourge x5 (Haywire)
Scourge x5 (Shredder)
Scourge x5 (Splinter Cannon)

Heavy Support
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)

Transport
3x Raider (Disintigrator)
3x Venom (Splinter Cannon)

Of course taking one detachment might be stupid, because you have to be Kabal of the Black Heart. Double battalion is probably far superior. Anyway, some advice would be handy

Thanks folks

Hey and welcome to the Dark Side. Enjoy your complimentary cookies.

Your list looks mostly solid, but I've got a few suggestions:

1) I'd strongly advise against taking a Haemonculus or Grotesques. If you take either of those, then you won't be able to get a Kabal bonus for your list (nor a Coven one).

2) Drazhar is a pretty dreadful HQ, even by the standards of Dark Eldar. His Incubi buff is worthless after just a couple of turns and he's barely better than a Klaivex but costs about 6 times as much. If you're just taking him to make your HQ section less monotonous, then I can understand that. I just feel I should let you know so that you're hopefully not too disappointed with him.

3) Splinter Cannons are pretty worthless on Scourges. You might as well just use the basic Shardcarbine and have twice as many bodies (and the same number of shots at 18") for about the same cost.

4) One thing I'm noticing is that you don't seem to have enough transports. If the 6 Kabalites go in the 3 Raiders and the 3 Incubi go in the 3 Venoms, then where are your HQs going? Unless one of your squads is deep striking, you might want to add in another Venom or Raider for your HQs to ride in.

5) Very minor point, but you could try using Dark Lances on one of your Ravagers or on your Raiders so that you can compare them to Disintegrators and see if you want to have more of one or the other. Entirely up to you.

6) Another optional thing, but Mandrakes are pretty good at the moment and can deep strike. I mention this because, if you're short on points, you could replace a unit of Incubi with a unit of Mandrakes and use the leftover transport for your HQs.

Hope this helps and best of luck in your raids.


~Vipoid

 vipoid wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
High everyone - i'm looking at starting DE. I don't want to really soup in Eldar, as i generally prefer "mono" faction forces, and I could use some help / advice getting started.

I have a lot of experience in competitive play, and I know DE are good, but that's not entirely why i'm picking them, I also like the concept and all that jazz, and I have a very good idea for how to paint them (I have discovered a love of airbrushing so that is also part of it).

So, i'm not chasing the meta here, just starting a force i've had my eye on for some time. It also helps that I have been getting my teeth kicked in by knights standing back up and would love to just laugh as i vect away their dreams.

All that said, i'm looking at essentially making a list that takes advantage of very good transports, vehicles, and troops that DE have to offer.

I see myself drifting towards a brigade.

Spoiler:

HQ
2xArchon
Drazhar or Haemonculus

Troops
6x Kabalite Warriors x5 (Blaster)

Elites
3x Incubi x5
OR Grotesques

FA
Scourge x5 (Haywire)
Scourge x5 (Shredder)
Scourge x5 (Splinter Cannon)

Heavy Support
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)
Ravager (3x Disintigrator Cannon)

Transport
3x Raider (Disintigrator)
3x Venom (Splinter Cannon)

Of course taking one detachment might be stupid, because you have to be Kabal of the Black Heart. Double battalion is probably far superior. Anyway, some advice would be handy

Thanks folks

Hey and welcome to the Dark Side. Enjoy your complimentary cookies.

Your list looks mostly solid, but I've got a few suggestions:

1) I'd strongly advise against taking a Haemonculus or Grotesques. If you take either of those, then you won't be able to get a Kabal bonus for your list (nor a Coven one).

2) Drazhar is a pretty dreadful HQ, even by the standards of Dark Eldar. His Incubi buff is worthless after just a couple of turns and he's barely better than a Klaivex but costs about 6 times as much. If you're just taking him to make your HQ section less monotonous, then I can understand that. I just feel I should let you know so that you're hopefully not too disappointed with him.

3) Splinter Cannons are pretty worthless on Scourges. You might as well just use the basic Shardcarbine and have twice as many bodies (and the same number of shots at 18") for about the same cost.

4) One thing I'm noticing is that you don't seem to have enough transports. If the 6 Kabalites go in the 3 Raiders and the 3 Incubi go in the 3 Venoms, then where are your HQs going? Unless one of your squads is deep striking, you might want to add in another Venom or Raider for your HQs to ride in.

5) Very minor point, but you could try using Dark Lances on one of your Ravagers or on your Raiders so that you can compare them to Disintegrators and see if you want to have more of one or the other. Entirely up to you.

6) Another optional thing, but Mandrakes are pretty good at the moment and can deep strike. I mention this because, if you're short on points, you could replace a unit of Incubi with a unit of Mandrakes and use the leftover transport for your HQs.

Hope this helps and best of luck in your raids.
~Vipoid

Wow, thank you.

Would you recommend splitting between two battalions as opposed to a brigade, to get the benefit of another trait / expanded unit list? Dropping Drazhar (you're right, part of it is just to have some variety), and adding 2 HQs for another Battalion would be easy. I'm not married to the idea of a brigade.

Thanks for the advice on the splinter cannons. It's a very good point. Possibly 2 haywire squads? I see anti-vehicle as problematic in general unless you start bringing dark lances. And let me tell you, having played Tyranids for infinity games, one strong shot, (or D3 strong shots, Heavy Venom Cannon) are totally unreliable, and volume shooting is almost always better. At least if you're like me and your dice secretly hate you. I'll probably magnetize for both cases anyway, because nerfs and inevitable 9th edition.

I've heard many good things about Mandrakes. I'm comfortable replacing Incubi.. i'll check them out. I don't think going mono-kabal is the right call the more I look at it.

Wouldn't it make sense to start one archon on the board so your giant ball of shooting can have access to rerolls turn 1?

When it comes to anti-vehicle, do most DE just ally in CWE?
In general, knights, custodes will be problematic. How'd you recommend going against them?

I agree with;
that Drazhar is terrible, completely worthless HQ in everyway possible.
Scourge dont want Splinter Cannons

I like Mandrakes, but they are in an odd place, they have the potential to be really strong, but are easily targeted to be killed, so they normally only get 1-2 rounds of shooting, they are better at killing Trash do to the MW's is an additional wound, they could drop in on 2-3 units (like IG) shoot 1 and charge the other. They also do MW's so you could target 3+/4++ units, like Smash Captain, for 100pts tho they wont kill him unless you roll lucky, you really need to have more than 5 guys 7-8 is more useful.

I used them to kill IG blobs or Smash captain, i tried them against custode type units a few times and didnt do to much.

 Marmatag wrote:
Wow, thank you.

You're welcome.

 Marmatag wrote:

Would you recommend splitting between two battalions as opposed to a brigade, to get the benefit of another trait / expanded unit list? Dropping Drazhar (you're right, part of it is just to have some variety), and adding 2 HQs for another Battalion would be easy. I'm not married to the idea of a brigade.

It's up to you, really. I think a DE Brigade can potentially work, but it's also going to be very restrictive. Still, if you're mainly interested in playing just Kabal (rather than Cult or Coven), then it could be worth using over a Battalion for the extra CP.

However, if you want to play other stuff, then I'd definitely recommend either two Battalions or else a Battalion and Vanguard or Outrider.

Assuming that you're starting off with a Battalion rather than a Brigade, don't forget that you can use mercenary units to pad out Vanguard or Outrider detachments.

For example, let's say that you want to include a Haemonculus and unit of Grotesques, but you only want one such unit and don't want any Wracks. Well, you can make a Vanguard with:
Haemonculus
Grotesques
Incubi (or Mandrakes)
Incubi (or Mandrakes)

You could even use an Outrider with:
Haemonculus
Grotesques
Scourges
Scourges
Scourges

Obviously it won't get you as many CPs as a second Battalion, but it can be handy if you just want to include a few specific Cult or Coven units.

 Marmatag wrote:

Thanks for the advice on the splinter cannons. It's a very good point. Possibly 2 haywire squads? I see anti-vehicle as problematic in general unless you start bringing dark lances. And let me tell you, having played Tyranids for infinity games, one strong shot, (or D3 strong shots, Heavy Venom Cannon) are totally unreliable, and volume shooting is almost always better. At least if you're like me and your dice secretly hate you. I'll probably magnetize for both cases anyway, because nerfs and inevitable 9th edition.

I think a second Haywire squad would work well. I find them a lot more useful than Splinter weapons.

Regarding anti-vehicle in general, I think your best bet is to try stuff out and see what works for you. I'd normally agree regarding volume of fire over a few strong shots... except that my Disintegrators have proved themselves utterly hopeless against enemy vehicles.

 Marmatag wrote:

I've heard many good things about Mandrakes. I'm comfortable replacing Incubi.. i'll check them out.

Well, this is only if you're using a Brigade. I think they're better slot-fillers than Incubi because they're more independent, but if you're using Battalions then you won't need to worry about mandatory Elites (though obviously you might still want to try out Mandrakes and Incubi).

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't think going mono-kabal is the right call the more I look at it.

Well, if you have an idea which units you'd like to use, I could suggest alternative army arrangements rather than a Brigade.

 Marmatag wrote:

Wouldn't it make sense to start one archon on the board so your giant ball of shooting can have access to rerolls turn 1?

I think you'd be better off starting him in a transport. That way, you can just disembark him on turn 1 (if you want to), but he'll have an extra 3" of movement to keep up with your vehicles and the transport can still move normally once he's out.

 Marmatag wrote:
When it comes to anti-vehicle, do most DE just ally in CWE?

Well, I use pure Dark Eldar, so I generally just use Dark Lances, Blasters and Haywire.

Allying in CWE might work better, but I fear you'll have to look elsewhere for help with that (I've got no interest in Eldar soup and so don't know much about it in terms of tactics). Harlequins also have some decent anti-vehicle stuff, I believe, but again I'm not the best person to ask.

 Marmatag wrote:

In general, knights, custodes will be problematic. How'd you recommend going against them?

I fear I haven't played against either, so I can't really say. Hopefully one of the other members will be able to help you.

Also, are you aware of The Dark City? It's a dedicated DE forum which will probably be able to offer you a lot of advice.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I like Mandrakes, but they are in an odd place, they have the potential to be really strong, but are easily targeted to be killed, so they normally only get 1-2 rounds of shooting, they are better at killing Trash do to the MW's is an additional wound, they could drop in on 2-3 units (like IG) shoot 1 and charge the other. They also do MW's so you could target 3+/4++ units, like Smash Captain, for 100pts tho they wont kill him unless you roll lucky, you really need to have more than 5 guys 7-8 is more useful.

I think Mandrakes are useful slot-fillers, since they can work entirely independent of the rest of your army.

However, if you want to focus on them, you could try putting them in Venoms. Granted, you lose out on their deep strike ability, but it means they get a lot more protection from enemy fire and you can more easily set up charges with them.

So i've done a fair bit of reading and mathing things out.

A Black Heart brigade can work.

3 Archon (blasters)
6 Kabalite Warriors (blasters)
3 Mandrake
3 Scourge (Haywire)
3 Ravager (Dis)
3 Venom
4 Raider (DL)

Some Kabalite warriors will have to foot slog. But that is OK, because in most games there are objectives to sit on.

6 blaster shots from within vehicles
4 dark lance shots
27 disintigrator shots
12d3 haywire shots
and all kinds of splinter shooting

This comes out to about 1900 points, with stock venoms. I could add another venom, or upgrade to splinter cannons on the current venoms.

The idea is to jump right at them. Unload with shooting. Next turn i've got mandrakes, which are like bargain Genestealers (love these! thanks for the suggestion. And, i can "counts-as" with Namarti Thralls so i don't have to deal with resin).

It's not a perfect list but it would do well. I could also cut some points and bring Haemonculous. I do like 4++ talos... and an extra warlord for 1cp.

 vipoid wrote:

Emeraldw wrote:
Foot slogging. Does the extra work the units perform outweigh the loss of mobility?

I think the difficulty will be in supporting them.

If you want 120 Kabalites, then you're looking at one of the following:

1) A Brigade with 12 units of 10.
2) A Battalion with 6 units of 20.
3) Two Battalions, each with 6 units of 10.

#1 Is going to be very expensive (You're looking at ~2400pts minimum).

#2 Is probably the easiest in terms of list building, but will be unwieldy on the table and extremely vulnerable to morale. Might have potential with Obsidian Rose.

#3 Requires you to take the festering pile of crap known as Drazhar, or else lose your Kabal bonus for one of the battalions.

If the 120 models is supposed to be Kabalites and other units as well, then you could take a Kabal Battalion (6 units of 10) and then add a Patrol (3 more squads of 10), and then also add a Coven or Wych Patrol/Battalion, which will probably be the best option.

The thing is, though, you've got very little support. The reroll 1s aura from the Archons really don't compare to the infantry buffs available to armies like Guard or Orks. Stratagems might help, but I think you'll definitely miss the 'free' (in terms of CPs) toolbox of Orders or such.


I think it could be fun, but I'd be wary of buying models for this army without first testing it with proxies or such.

The idea was something like this (not points exact):

Battlion 1: Cult of Cursed Blade
Succubus x 2
6 units of 10 Wyches (w/ Shardnet)

Battalion 2: Obsidian Rose
Archon x 2
6 units of 10 Warriors (blaster x2 + DL)
Min Scourges with 4 Haywire

Spearhead: Black Heart
Archon (Cunning & Writ)
3 Ravagers with Disintigrators

The list has 6 Dark Lances, 12 blasters, 9 Disintigrators and 4 Haywire for killing tanks. The Wyches and Warriors obviously pack huge amounts of anti-infantry fire overall. 6" extra range on the warriors helps out with range issues quite a bit.

Units of 10 force hard decisions on how much force you put into killing a unit. Killing say, 6 warriors still might leave the heavy weapons and Obsidian Rose has more ways to deal with morale than normal. The Wyches are more or less immune to morale anyway.

Pretty much everything is a troop as well so you can claim objectives even if only one dude is left alive.

In my games, the mobility of the transports is great but I sometimes wonder if just more dudes could just do more work and cover the board more.

I guess it depends on your meta a bit. If you run into Knights, or Custodes, you'll lose so many models. Think about 8 bikes with hurricane bolters. That's 96 shots on the 2+ hit /w reroll and 3+ wound shots. And that's just the 8 bikes portion of the list, there's another massive chunk of points that hasn't acted yet. Meanwhile if they're shooting at Venoms you might lose 2, assuming you don't pop -1.

 Marmatag wrote:

Wow, thank you.

Would you recommend splitting between two battalions as opposed to a brigade, to get the benefit of another trait / expanded unit list? Dropping Drazhar (you're right, part of it is just to have some variety), and adding 2 HQs for another Battalion would be easy. I'm not married to the idea of a brigade.

Thanks for the advice on the splinter cannons. It's a very good point. Possibly 2 haywire squads? I see anti-vehicle as problematic in general unless you start bringing dark lances. And let me tell you, having played Tyranids for infinity games, one strong shot, (or D3 strong shots, Heavy Venom Cannon) are totally unreliable, and volume shooting is almost always better. At least if you're like me and your dice secretly hate you. I'll probably magnetize for both cases anyway, because nerfs and inevitable 9th edition.

I've heard many good things about Mandrakes. I'm comfortable replacing Incubi.. i'll check them out. I don't think going mono-kabal is the right call the more I look at it.

Wouldn't it make sense to start one archon on the board so your giant ball of shooting can have access to rerolls turn 1?

When it comes to anti-vehicle, do most DE just ally in CWE?
In general, knights, custodes will be problematic. How'd you recommend going against them?

I'm not big on incubi right now. They're a 'mercenaries' unit that doesn't benefit from any of the sub-factions (wych cult, kabal or haemonculus covens). Very few mercenary units end up being ok. Grotesques are fantastic. I had 4 prophets of flesh grotesques tank way more shots than they should've had a right to. Incubi have the same issue all non-coven units have in that they're just too fragile. If they could hit at strength 5 or maybe had some boost like the 3 sub-factions i might take them but as is there's no way unless i'm trying to fill points.

I don't have experience with mandrakes but i think they're still alright. Once again i don't have the experience.

Yeah sadly splinter cannons were never really great but becoming rapid fire makes them feel so much worse than before (least since i played dark eldar in 7th). In 7th poison had an iffy role. It was supposedly to kill monsters but really it was only effective against biker units (jinking didn't change the save), artillery emplacements (wounding crew) or monstrous infantry (ogryns, tyrant guard and similar). Anything bigger usually had a 2+ armor and possibly FnP. As for now poison is sorta ok but not great. These days in 8th i prefer shredders but having many in any situation is tough. I'd say go 3 squads of trueborn with shredders in venoms and then go 'flayed skull' kabal (19" move on your venoms and your shredders ignore cover bonuses!) and reserve them in DS with 'screaming jets'. I generally have a blast with them regardless of how long they survive. Last game i had most of the shredder-born actually live.

Against knights i have no clue how to win mono-dark eldar. It's a good freaking question. I've only fought knights twice so far and only one time had 4 big knights with the 2nd game being 2 small knights and another faction.

Against custodes bring lots of shredder trueborn in venoms. Usually custodes have at least a base 4+ inv. save so unless you can deal mortal wounds you're better off with weapons that avoid a small bit of armor and have lots of damage potential. The high toughness 5 of custodes still gets wounded by shredders on a 3 which can be re-rolled if failed. Shredders on average get 15 shots per shredder-born squad, average of 10 hits, and maybe 9 wounds with at least 3 going through. Might not sound like a lot but this is each squad and each squad in a venom probably costs 2-3 custodes in points. Custodes are super expensive in points per model.

Well you absolutely need Kabal of the Black Heart to vect away the stand-back-up stratagem, or you just will simply never kill the Knights.

Part of the reason i'm leaning harder and harder to this list:

3x Archon (Blaster)
6x Kab (Blaster)
3x Mandrake
3x Scourge (Haywire)
3x Ravager (Dis)
3x Raider (DL)
4x Venom

You should have the firepower to down a little knight (Crusader, Warden) in a turn, assuming full or reasonably full strength of your list (and also no rerolls of any kind, you might reroll blaster damage, for example). Especially if you vect the Rotate Ion Shields, although that's probably unwise. You could leave the Castellan alone until the little ones are slain.

That would get you 4 points of Titan Slayer, 4 points of King Slayer, without ever having to touch the Castellan. (48 wounds, -16 = 32, 8*4 = 32.) Assuming you could get 4 points out of Recon (or something that Knights are weak to), and you held an objective all 6 turns, and you killed a unit in at least 4 turns, that puts you at 12 + 6 + 4 = 22 points base. If you held more every turn you go up to 28. If you kill more, it's possible you get into the 30s, which is typically enough to win.

Meanwhile you deny secondaries fairly well aside from Big Game.

The trick would be staying out of melee range while still hitting them. You'd need to leverage ruins or other spots that make it difficult for them to fight you. If they are able to use stomp you probably already lost. It's not an easy fight. There's a reason it's a top list.

I wanna start a drukhari force, how viable is a reaver hellions main force probably with scourges ?

PandatheWarrior wrote:
I wanna start a drukhari force, how viable is a reaver hellions main force probably with scourges ?

Hellions are not very good in semi-comp or high comp. Reavers are playable for sure and Scourges are as well, they both are 1 hit wonders tho, so just make sure you get the most out of them the turn you use them.

Reavers are good due to their movement and ability to tie units up, or stop the opponent from shooting for a turn, they can even work well against MSU squads.
Scourges are good as for their Turn 1 Protection via DSing. A cheap Anti-Tank or Anti-infantry roll is best (HWB or Shredders)

If you really wanted to use Hellions, make sure you hide them really well and try to not get the, killed turn 1, their low Toughness and army save makes them turn 1 priority for 1st blood, due to how odd they are (D2, with Hit and run and Fly, and can use CP to do MW's) they do pose as a turn 2 threat to units that relay on invul saves, so its another reason why they are targeted turn 1. They are honestly just overcosted for what they do, they really need to go down 3-4pts.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

PandatheWarrior wrote:
I wanna start a drukhari force, how viable is a reaver hellions main force probably with scourges ?

Hellions are not very good in semi-comp or high comp. Reavers are playable for sure and Scourges are as well, they both are 1 hit wonders tho, so just make sure you get the most out of them the turn you use them.

Reavers are good due to their movement and ability to tie units up, or stop the opponent from shooting for a turn, they can even work well against MSU squads.
Scourges are good as for their Turn 1 Protection via DSing. A cheap Anti-Tank or Anti-infantry roll is best (HWB or Shredders)

If you really wanted to use Hellions, make sure you hide them really well and try to not get the, killed turn 1, their low Toughness and army save makes them turn 1 priority for 1st blood, due to how odd they are (D2, with Hit and run and Fly, and can use CP to do MW's) they do pose as a turn 2 threat to units that relay on invul saves, so its another reason why they are targeted turn 1. They are honestly just overcosted for what they do, they really need to go down 3-4pts.

I have another question for going against knights. Since knights often have a 5+ inv. or 4+ inv. (if they boost it) would it not be good to spam lots of str 5 or 6 attacks that go through a little bit of armor (maybe ap -1 or -2) and maybe do a couple damage each. Right now i hear people using dissies against knights and though you just talked badly of hellions i'm rather curious if DS'ing them via webway (say about 40 of em) and giving them cursed blade obsession so they're all str 5 base. Then give one +1 attack and the other perhaps +1 to hit. For the 3 attacks group that amounts to about 60 attacks at str 5 but no ap and 2 damage. If i recall the numbers it was about 9 damage for the first unit of 20 against a knight. Not great but it's 280 pts. The next unit does almost 8 wounds. So about 17 wounds against a knight between both units out of deepstrike provided overwatch doesn't kill too many and they can all strike in combat. Which might take up a lot of space with 40 dudes but knights have big profiles.

If it's a bad idea i could always try something else. Webway would also prevent screaming jets which isn't exactly something i'd like.

Dissie ravagers in comparison for 2 of them do about 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds and 2 unsaved (vs a 4+ inv. save) which amounts to 4 wounds total and that's 250 pts between the 2. Of course vs anything without an inv. save it's different. For blasters on scourge that's 256 pts for 8 blasters doing about 8/6 for unsaved wounds and maybe 4 damage. For haywire maybe all 3 squads with 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 wounds and then 2 or 3 of those doing d3 wounds so an average of 10 or 11 wounds which is actually really good considering the cost. Of course the only other place we can get haywire is talos and we can only cap scourge squads at 3 squads.