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Dark Weapons lost their special rule, if they had (+1 to wound vehicle) or (-1 to Invul saves vs vehicles) they would be perfect.

@vipoid:

You know the funny thing is archons have constantly been hit by the nerf bat. I heard stories of a single archon being on about the same level of fight-i-ness as a tyranid bio titan in one game (think it was 5th) and would've won if it could've gone first.

In 7th the huskblade got nerfed a bit but the shadow field got boosted i think. Even if you failed a shadowfield save it'd last for the rest of the phase which when you had 4 archons all together in one unit you could have one take all the shots from a gun-line and as soon as that phase is over and the shadow field dies you just have another archon switch places to take the shooting in the next enemy shooting phase. I legit had a guard player cursing at how unkillable that archon party posse was. Then you get into melee with the huskblades and bring down monsters with weight of attacks and Instant Death with any successful hit and you can take a blast pistol for anti-tank power.

Seriously aside from small units of reavers with cluster caltrop and Covens armies the archon party posse was an amazing unit and i'm happy to say i figured out that trick with the 4 archons all on my own. It partly happened because i faced a bunch of imperial fist (i think that was the chapter) bikers with a 2+ FNP in one game. I just wanted something to handle those stupid units and cut through FNP.

-------

The only things we got since 5th edition was most of our characters were put on the chopping block and they finally released the void raven. The re-released models that didn't need it too bad (most of the eldar specials are still finecast and they got wraith knights and flyers) and the ossefactor in the wrack unit which in 8th is garbage.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Dark Weapons lost their special rule, if they had (+1 to wound vehicle) or (-1 to Invul saves vs vehicles) they would be perfect.

Ugh and don't get me started on heat lances. They used to topple tanks and other stuff. Str 6 and lack of getting into half range just killed it for them.

Its a great book. It plays fast, hard hitting and fragile. (Except for covens which are tough, hard hitting and fast)

And there are options. A hand full or a double handful of real choices of how to play our lists. And I am quite happy we have few fake choices and our trap choices are obvious (or at least were obvious to me.)

But we don't have much customization. Once we know which unit we are building we only have one HQ we can take. They have Zero options. Electro corrosive whip is the best Heamy weapon hands down. The Archon takes a Husk blade. You could give your succubus a shardnet and impailer, but thats dumb. There is no way to make anyone distinctively tougher or faster or stronger, you get what you get.

Same with the units. Our weapons choose themselves. Take as many blasters as you can, unless you are taking as many shreaders as you can. Stay away from heat lances. Stay away from liquifiers. Put what ever you want on the Talos, it's not going to do much with shooting anyway. You can go round and round on what weapon to put on your scourge, but its only going to get one shot so it doesn't matter. Or maybe it does that might be one of our real choices.


The units we have are doing their job. We are a top codex even mono dex against all comers we are competitive. And its a fun army to play.

Hello fellow Archons,
A few weeks from now I'll be facing AdMech in a 2k game using one of the Vigilus Defiant missions (not sure which yet). Up until now I have never faced AdMech, so I only have a vague idea of wha I'm up against. I know little of what is in his collection (beyond plenty of Skitarii, Electro-Priests, walkers, Onagers, a Knight...the usual suspects. I have no idea what Forge World he runs, but given I suspect Mars given that he has Cawl.

Any suggestions on how to beat AdMech? I'm debating running Kabal + Wyches, Kabal + Coven or a combination of all three. Also, what should my.target priority be? I'm thinking Icarus Onagers, then Knight, then Robots?

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:
Hello fellow Archons,
A few weeks from now I'll be facing AdMech in a 2k game using one of the Vigilus Defiant missions (not sure which yet). Up until now I have never faced AdMech, so I only have a vague idea of wha I'm up against. I know little of what is in his collection (beyond plenty of Skitarii, Electro-Priests, walkers, Onagers, a Knight...the usual suspects. I have no idea what Forge World he runs, but given I suspect Mars given that he has Cawl.

Any suggestions on how to beat AdMech? I'm debating running Kabal + Wyches, Kabal + Coven or a combination of all three. Also, what should my.target priority be? I'm thinking Icarus Onagers, then Knight, then Robots?

Admech is my main army and the best way to shut me down is to get into close combat with the heavy shooters. Dunecrawlers are usually the last units alive in my games and i feel they are what gives the most consistent damage output. You HAVE to one-shot them otherwise they can act as if they were full health for 1 CP.

If theyre bringing a vigilus detachment they are probably running the servitor maniple which is the better one. If they do bring Kataphron destroyers be careful. They can dish out a ton of damage. They are fairly squishy but if he brings regular servitors, he can sacrifice one to reanimate a kataphron.

Admech brings many threats to the table, and usually losing one isnt that crippling. Try getting some wyches/reavers/grotesques locked in combat with kataphrons/dunecrawlers/kastellans. Wyches are particularly good against kataphrons since they are infantry.

Kastellan robot shooting is horrifyingly effective. Fear it. Outrange it or hug it, but DO NOT get caught in the open against it.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:
Hello fellow Archons,
A few weeks from now I'll be facing AdMech in a 2k game using one of the Vigilus Defiant missions (not sure which yet). Up until now I have never faced AdMech, so I only have a vague idea of wha I'm up against. I know little of what is in his collection (beyond plenty of Skitarii, Electro-Priests, walkers, Onagers, a Knight...the usual suspects. I have no idea what Forge World he runs, but given I suspect Mars given that he has Cawl.

Any suggestions on how to beat AdMech? I'm debating running Kabal + Wyches, Kabal + Coven or a combination of all three. Also, what should my.target priority be? I'm thinking Icarus Onagers, then Knight, then Robots?

Admech is my main army and the best way to shut me down is to get into close combat with the heavy shooters. Dunecrawlers are usually the last units alive in my games and i feel they are what gives the most consistent damage output. You HAVE to one-shot them otherwise they can act as if they were full health for 1 CP.

If theyre bringing a vigilus detachment they are probably running the servitor maniple which is the better one. If they do bring Kataphron destroyers be careful. They can dish out a ton of damage. They are fairly squishy but if he brings regular servitors, he can sacrifice one to reanimate a kataphron.

Admech brings many threats to the table, and usually losing one isnt that crippling. Try getting some wyches/reavers/grotesques locked in combat with kataphrons/dunecrawlers/kastellans. Wyches are particularly good against kataphrons since they are infantry.

That sounds easier said than done, given that he's likely going to be screening his shooters with a line of Skitarii. Still, I see your point. A fast Wych contingent might be key here.

Jancoran wrote:Kastellan robot shooting is horrifyingly effective. Fear it. Outrange it or hug it, but DO NOT get caught in the open against it.

Yeah I am legimitately scared of those Kastelans. The problem I'm seeing with them and AdMech walkers is that they are generally loaded up on invul saves, which means that taking them out will be tricky even with massed lance fire.

I'll try to post a possible list for taking them on later. For now, any other ideas will be welcome.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:


That sounds easier said than done, given that he's likely going to be screening his shooters with a line of Skitarii. Still, I see your point. A fast Wych contingent might be key here.

skitariis die pretty quickly to massed fire (which you shouldnt have a problem with all your splinter weapon). Also, bringing reavers to charge over the screen might be a good idea, they are also decent at eating overwatch. Wyches will be hard to play, especially against kastellans since they dont get a save (AP -2) against them.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:


Yeah I am legimitately scared of those Kastelans. The problem I'm seeing with them and AdMech walkers is that they are generally loaded up on invul saves, which means that taking them out will be tricky even with massed lance fire.

I'll try to post a possible list for taking them on later. For now, any other ideas will be welcome.

Kastellans invuln only works in shooting. if they lock them down to double shoot, their invuln becomes a 5++ and they cant fall back out of combat.
mobility is key against them. If youre playing objectives, try placing them so that they are holdable from inside ruins so you can hide from their shooting.

you should use Vect on wrath of mars on the kastellan, thats pretty much the only stratagem that is worth countering.

Also on the subject of Admech, allying in Jain Zar (dep Strike her) and a unit of Banshees using the Psyker Power that CATAPULTS THEM across the table round one can be great for locking down the shooting. Both are ideal for the task.

 Jancoran wrote:
Also on the subject of Admech, allying in Jain Zar (dep Strike her) and a unit of Banshees using the Stratagem thAT CATAPULTS THEM across the table round one can be great for locking down the shooting. Both are ideal for the task.

Explain good sir....

Im guessing he is talking about the +2" charge stratagem from DSing?

 rayphoton wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Also on the subject of Admech, allying in Jain Zar (dep Strike her) and a unit of Banshees using the Stratagem thAT CATAPULTS THEM across the table round one can be great for locking down the shooting. Both are ideal for the task.

Explain good sir....

She's got serious melee ability and can steal the enemies'. She can be dropped in via the Deep Strike Stratagem, and then charge in turn two (remember that she cannot get her +3" thing when she deepstrikes), after the Banshees have already charged in turn one (Using the Warlock Quicken Psychic Power). So its kind of two rounds of wrapping up important shooting units while you advance. And as someone mentioned there IS a stratagem called Court of the Young King, but it only works on Biel-Tan aspect units that contain an Exarch. That adds 2" to a charge. You'd have to be Biel-Tan for that to work, but it wouldn't work on Jain Zar. She doesn't have an "exarch in her unit". BUT you could use it on the Banshees if you make them Biel-Tan.

Like i said: you must not get caught in the open. You need to hug Admech or you need to outrange and out maneuver them. But nothing in the middle. they have a ton o firepower even in their smallest Skittari units, much like Militarum Tempestus. they sting pretty good.

Sadly, I don't have Jain Zar or Banshees, but you've made a very good case for their inclusion in a Drukhari list.


Here's what I am thinking of running vs the Admech:

KABAL OF THE FLAYED SKULL BATTALION:
Archon- blast pistol, Djinn Blade, Hatred Eternal- 86
Archon- splinter pistol, venom blade- 72
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
7 Mandrakes- 112
Ravager- 3 dark lances- 140
Ravager- 3 dark lances- 140
Razorwing Jetfighter- splinter cannon, 2 disintegrators- 145
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75

CULT OF THE RED GRIEF BATTALION:
Succubus- splinter pistol, Blood Glaive, Adrenalight, Hyper-Swift Reflexes- 50
Succubus- splinter pistol, Archite Glaive, Serpentin- 50
8 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix w. agonizer, Grave Lotus- 65
5 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hypex- 45
5 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Splintermind- 45
6 Reaver Jetbikes- 2 grav talons, Painbringer- 120
Raider- disintegrator- 80
Raider- disintegrator- 80

PROPHETS OF FLESH SPEARHEAD:
Haemonculus- splinter pistol, electrocorrosive whip, Vexator Mask, Master Artisan- 76
Talos- haywire blaster, dual macroscalpels- 99
Talos- haywire blaster, dual macroscalpels- 99
Talos- haywire blaster, dual macroscalpels- 99

Total: 2005
Command Points: 14 (-3 for Alliance of Agony and Prizes of the Dark City)

Thoughts:
-I'm debating between taking the Mandrakes (for anti-infantry firepower/melee power) or a 3rd Ravager with disintegrators. I'm torn on disintegrators vs dark lances in general.
-As an alternative, I'm considering an extra 3 Reavers in the unit so that they can multicharge-pile into more stuff, and survive shooting on the way in more.
-I have NO idea where to put the Archons, given that all of my transports are out of room. I'm contemplating walking them with the Taloi behind my skimmers, but I don't want my units outrunning their reroll bubbles.
-For the Haemie, I'm debating on Master Artisan (to make my Taloi harder) or Diabolic Soothsayer (for the extra CPS)

Well using my same list as i did against tau i fought against a Craftworld Eldar list with 4 hemlocks (the psyker jets), 2 wave serpeants, 10 wraith guard (2 units of 5) and some infantry and managed to kill almost all of it by the end of the game except maybe 3 wraithguard and a wounded hemlock. It was maelstrom and i ended with almost twice as many points as him. I think even if it was a kill points game i would still probably have been ahead. I didn't really count the kill points we each had as it was maelstrom.

Question: do any of the other Kabals shine a bit better than the usual suspects in lower point games. For example, Poison Tongue

I have a little 500pt tournament coming up and I want to just run kabalites in venoms and raiders.

HQ
Archon, Soul Seeker pistol, venom blade

Troops
10 x kabalities
5 x kabs with shredder
5 x kabs with shredder

Elite
Urghul
Urghul
Lhamean

Raider - Disintegrator/splinter wracks
Raider - Disintegrator/splinter wracks
Venom

This is maximising on getting as many poison shots/hits as possible. The only thing is I have next to no anti-tank, but other than Drukhari, who else has access to cheap armour? Would this list benefit from having mobility or should I go for more bodies?

The list seems good for 500 points, but I feel like the 20 points spent on Splinter Racks would be better used getting a 10th warrior and/or a couple more shredders for the unit. I assume the Archon goes with the court in the Venom?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also feel like this list might be better as Obsidian Rose. Extra range for shredders + 15” rapid fire on all your splinter weapons would let you get in range to maximize your firepower without making the follow-up charge pretty much automatic.

Another option: drop the splinter racks and give your archon a blaster, then upgrade the Venom Blade to a proper huskblade. The blaster option is index only, so I don’t know if folks in your area think that’s kosher, but it is a great option in ObRose. You can give your warlord the the Hatred Eternal WL trait (reroll failed wounds) and the Armor of Misery to create a pretty nasty Archon. That gives you a single blaster shot that hits on a 2+, reroll 1s, at 24” range, and can then reroll failed wounds. And the Armor is great for tanking all the bolter and lasgun shots you don’t want to waste your shadowfield save on. So that would give you a much tougher, nastier WL who can also provide your army with a single, but very reliable, anti tank shot every turn.

I was considering obsidian rose but I figure a 500pt match won't have too much armour and I have disintegrators and even shredders that can handle some light armour.

The exploding 6's with the racks and re-roll to 1's For poison means I should be getting near the higher end of successful shots in. The relic pistol is also 18' which I didny realise.

I've 4CP and I can use that for potentially redeploying my three transports or using screaming jets or potentially deepstrike the Archon.

I'm going for mobility and mass firepower. I'm amazed at how cheap our transports are. I know there will be guard, GSC, potential Tau and blood angels

Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had success using Kabalites in melee?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had success using Kabalites in melee?

Not in 8E. when initiative mattered it might have been more likely but...

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had success using Kabalites in melee?

Not in 8E. when initiative mattered it might have been more likely but...

I've had the opposite of success. Charged something to tie it up and prevent shooting, then was stuck in a pointless slap fight for the rest of the game. Sure it tied the rough riders up for the rest of the game, but who cares, and I needed that blaster shooting.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had success using Kabalites in melee?

Oh heck no, 4-5 Str3 melee with 0 ap, on T3 5+ dudes, yeah no. I'd rather stay at ranger and get twice that amount tin shots.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had success using Kabalites in melee?

Oh heck no, 4-5 Str3 melee with 0 ap, on T3 5+ dudes, yeah no. I'd rather stay at ranger and get twice that amount tin shots.

Yeah, that's usually my thought as well.

I'd just been contemplating some ideas for Agoniser stand-ins on my Sybarites, only to realise that it was pointless because I never take them anyway.

With Poison Tongue having been out for a while and Ynnari having various melee buffs, I thought I might as well ask just in case.

I'm thinking about replacing the 2 void ravens and 10 grotesques (with haemonculus covens) in my list with 2 units of 12 reavers with blasters and maybe grav talons (24 reavers). If i have to i will take the basic wyches and 2 succubus so both reaver squads have toughness 5. It could be alright i suppose. Since my anti-tank should be decent at that point i'll probably use dissie ravagers as well. I guess i'll just have to see when i have the money to buy about 9 more reavers.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm thinking about replacing the 2 void ravens and 10 grotesques (with haemonculus covens) in my list with 2 units of 12 reavers with blasters and maybe grav talons (24 reavers). If i have to i will take the basic wyches and 2 succubus so both reaver squads have toughness 5. It could be alright i suppose. Since my anti-tank should be decent at that point i'll probably use dissie ravagers as well. I guess i'll just have to see when i have the money to buy about 9 more reavers.

Aeesome! Hell yeah. I want to see that fight. You will deffinatly miss t5&6 with a 4 up invul. Not to mention the actual damage out put the covens can do. But hitting with 24 Dark Elf Screarmers turn 1will be awesome.

Whats the rest of the list? You need some kind of a follow up.

I use Grotesques and Talos. I think you could use Harliquins, or Wraith blades. Dark elf HQs can work to an extent. If they are kitted out with relics and warlord traits. Bright lsnces? The Avatar?

You need a follow up. Hellions would be cool, the have the strenth and damage, but I don't think they have much AP.

Question: Is 10-man groteques worth it in an otherwise shooty kabals (ie, 3 dissy, 3 reapers, etc..)??

I plan on playing in tournaments soon and the IK seems to be king these days. I figured a prophet of flesh groteques would keep the heat off of the kabal units.

Would that be a viable tactic?

I'd have to convert for Groteques though. I can get my hands on cheap Ogre Reaper models and I was thinking of sniping their heads off and using the raider's shock prow as the head, with some talo bits for one of the arms. (kinda like Silent Hill's Pyramid Head).

What do you recommend to deliver the Groteques? Running up the table starting turn 1? Or, would deep striking be better?

Deep striking seems iffy as, the shooty kabal units would be the only target in turn one.

Guess I need to play more!

Fairly new to 40K, built a chaos team and played a few times and really enjoy it! I will only be playing friendly games so I play what I think looks cool and will play well.

I love the idea of Drukhari and flyers. I have looked around but havent seen a list flyer heavy. Is this a possibility and will it have a chance to be decently competitive?
Im willing to invest the money and time but as we all know it can be expensive to just randomly buy pieces especially for us newbies to the war.

any suggestions/thoughts greatly appreciated

What to buy next - need advice

Dark Eldar (that`s they were called some time ago) do have some of the best looking (IMO) model ranges, so I bought an army worth of the models, painted them to the highest standard I could achive and was proud of them.
I haven`t played in a while, but it seems all the units I collected got neferd pretty hard - that or maybe I forgot how to play.

This is what I currently own:

Heperax
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator

Succubus
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator

3 Incubi
Venom with dual Splinter Cannon

10 Mandrakes

1 Razorwing
1 Voidraven

12 Reavers (2 Heat Lances, 2 Blaster)

15 Scourges (4x Haywire)

15 Hellions


I don`t need to win tournaments, but I want to be able to put up a fight in a friendly game.
How can I use as many models that I already own, and what should I buy with the next $100-200 of my hobby budget?

 Chewie wrote:
Question: Is 10-man groteques worth it in an otherwise shooty kabals (ie, 3 dissy, 3 reapers, etc..)??

I plan on playing in tournaments soon and the IK seems to be king these days. I figured a prophet of flesh groteques would keep the heat off of the kabal units.

Would that be a viable tactic?

I'd have to convert for Groteques though. I can get my hands on cheap Ogre Reaper models and I was thinking of sniping their heads off and using the raider's shock prow as the head, with some talo bits for one of the arms. (kinda like Silent Hill's Pyramid Head).

What do you recommend to deliver the Groteques? Running up the table starting turn 1? Or, would deep striking be better?

Deep striking seems iffy as, the shooty kabal units would be the only target in turn one.

Guess I need to play more!

Groteques are always worth it.

RacerX10 wrote:
Fairly new to 40K, built a chaos team and played a few times and really enjoy it! I will only be playing friendly games so I play what I think looks cool and will play well.

I love the idea of Drukhari and flyers. I have looked around but havent seen a list flyer heavy. Is this a possibility and will it have a chance to be decently competitive?
Im willing to invest the money and time but as we all know it can be expensive to just randomly buy pieces especially for us newbies to the war.

any suggestions/thoughts greatly appreciated

A flyer Airwing of 3 competitive. You dont see it always due to different metas, some of the metas are anti-flyer b.c so many players were playing flyers, like Deredeo's and Smash Captains coming back due to fly changes. But as for TAC they are great.

 von Hohenstein wrote:
What to buy next - need advice

Dark Eldar (that`s they were called some time ago) do have some of the best looking (IMO) model ranges, so I bought an army worth of the models, painted them to the highest standard I could achive and was proud of them.
I haven`t played in a while, but it seems all the units I collected got neferd pretty hard - that or maybe I forgot how to play.

This is what I currently own:

Heperax
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator

Succubus
9 Wytches
Raider with Desintegrator

3 Incubi
Venom with dual Splinter Cannon

10 Mandrakes

1 Razorwing
1 Voidraven

12 Reavers (2 Heat Lances, 2 Blaster)

15 Scourges (4x Haywire)

15 Hellions


I don`t need to win tournaments, but I want to be able to put up a fight in a friendly game.
How can I use as many models that I already own, and what should I buy with the next $100-200 of my hobby budget?

For a friendly game your army looks fine, but as to what to buy next? For sure some Ravagers, if i were to take out a couple units of your list? It would be the Incubi, they are one of the weaker units in our army, hellions are close, but they can actually work well if they are not shot at turn 1. Your list however only has 1 large looking threat, and its the Hellions, given they are glass cannons expect them to die a lot. Incubi are just Power sword armies for the most part, 3+ armor isnt good anymore, you either want Invuls or triple the bodies. So many things has AP -1/-3 and 2D-3D.

With that said, for friendly games you should play this list 3-4 times to learn the units and then change what you want, its ok to keep a unit of Incubi, they are cheap enough that they still can function. But i for sure would be more firepower via Ravagers.

A little bit about Hellions, they are 1 hit wonders, they will do really well for 1 turn then most likely die, so expect that to happen, with enough poison shots to kill a small screen and to fly over units and charge, sure No AP, but with 30+ attacks they are great at killing chaff, especially if they had FnP.

Has any of you tried using a max sized kabalite blob in an Obsidian rose detachment to use the failure is not an option stratagem?

i was thinking about putting them in a webway strike to protect them T1 then drop them on an objective that is pretty far from the main battle and using the extra range from the Obsidian rose to lay down serious firepower