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The Discannon vs DL is a large debate going on right now at TheDarkCity.

From Mathhammer, the DL vs vehicles is still better, but the HWB PFP is bette, Discannons are 1/2 cost now. The math shows DC and HWB are 1 wound less on average vs vehicles than Lance, but vs anything 2 wounds S5 or less DC's are better. Once its T6 3W+ DL's are better.

In general, taking both, or if you think you have enough blasters, then a little more DC might be better. I will be running at least 2 DC and 2 DL Ravagers, maybe 1-2 DC flyers and 1-2 HWB Scourges.

the_scotsman wrote:
Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.

Are you sure about this? This was one of those fishy transcriptions. All the first postings I saw claimed it was reroll 1's on your inured to pain not invulns. Then suddenly people were making lists claiming rerolling invulns was the best one. There is a massive difference between reroll 1's to invulns and reroll 1's to FNP.

I thought it was 1's of FnP

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.

Are you sure about this? This was one of those fishy transcriptions. All the first postings I saw claimed it was reroll 1's on your inured to pain not invulns. Then suddenly people were making lists claiming rerolling invulns was the best one. There is a massive difference between reroll 1's to invulns and reroll 1's to FNP.

In the TTT Batrep Lawrence explicitly called it a reroll to the invuln saves, and the other leak I saw said it was a reroll to the "Pain Saves"

The HC invuln save rule is called "Insensible to Pain" IIRC. I assumed it was simply a misunderstanding based on the rules wording being so similar. Rerolling 1s on Inured to Pain would indeed be trash.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Only problem with Urien I see is that a generic PoF haemie can take the reroll 1s invuln trait, and I like that a whole lot better than +1S on most of our stuff.

Are you sure about this? This was one of those fishy transcriptions. All the first postings I saw claimed it was reroll 1's on your inured to pain not invulns. Then suddenly people were making lists claiming rerolling invulns was the best one. There is a massive difference between reroll 1's to invulns and reroll 1's to FNP.

In the TTT Batrep Lawrence explicitly called it a reroll to the invuln saves, and the other leak I saw said it was a reroll to the "Pain Saves"

The HC invuln save rule is called "Insensible to Pain" IIRC. I assumed it was simply a misunderstanding based on the rules wording being so similar. Rerolling 1s on Inured to Pain would indeed be trash.

Well that TTT video had a few things wrong (this is for 100% sure) so i stopped believe in what he was saying and just listen to the ones that literally were holding the codex and reading out the rules.

We'll see in a few days I guess. Doesn't really change the fact that a basic haemonculus can probably outperform urien, or a basic succubus can probably outperform lelith, if put together in the most competitive way.

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see in a few days I guess. Doesn't really change the fact that a basic haemonculus can probably outperform urien, or a basic succubus can probably outperform lelith, if put together in the most competitive way.

Yeah, thats something i dont like. Tho Urien shouldnt be as killing IMO but he should have some amazing survivability and able to heal wounds on any coven and awesome auras, but IDK if he is even worth it in a full coven army.

Anyone knows if you can still pick the Chapter Approved warlord traits? Because a Red Grief Succubus with Relic Archite Glaive and Blood Dancer Trait is pretty brutal.

 ThePie wrote:
Anyone knows if you can still pick the Chapter Approved warlord traits? Because a Red Grief Succubus with Relic Archite Glaive and Blood Dancer Trait is pretty brutal.

You should be able to as far as anyone knows. The strategems in it are legal, thus the other content too.

 ThePie wrote:
Anyone knows if you can still pick the Chapter Approved warlord traits? Because a Red Grief Succubus with Relic Archite Glaive and Blood Dancer Trait is pretty brutal.

They are still in the codex, however the Blood Dancer trait is now specifically tied to the Cult of Strife.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see in a few days I guess. Doesn't really change the fact that a basic haemonculus can probably outperform urien, or a basic succubus can probably outperform lelith, if put together in the most competitive way.

Yeah, thats something i dont like. Tho Urien shouldnt be as killing IMO but he should have some amazing survivability and able to heal wounds on any coven and awesome auras, but IDK if he is even worth it in a full coven army.

I think he's an auto take. The +1 strength aura is huge on grots and taloi. Wounding guardsmen on 2's for grots and talos punching through vehicles and monsters more efficiently is no small thing. Urien has always been about grots and taloi, hence why he was part of the grotesqerie. He is only marginally more expensive then a generic haemonculus. The fact that he is part of the clear cut best obsession and has the best WLT only seals it further. None of the haemonculus options are very killy and whats the point? Grots and taloi are leagues ahead in that department.

I actually think the more disappointing part of the release was how obvious PoF and urien were as competitive choices. They got the best trait, best stratagem and best WLT lol. It's a minor quibble but by contrast I still can't decide which wych cult to take.

I'll definitely agree on Taloi but huge on grots...S5-S6 pretty much ONLY helps with T3 currently, at least when it comes to the toughness values that are regularly seen in the game. and its not like Grotesques have a big problem with getting tied up by GEQ.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'll definitely agree on Taloi but huge on grots...S5-S6 pretty much ONLY helps with T3 currently, at least when it comes to the toughness values that are regularly seen in the game. and its not like Grotesques have a big problem with getting tied up by GEQ.

This, for me i dont fight much T3, its all T4 or T7.

 ThePie wrote:

Im also debating if it's better to put blast pistols or blasters on my archons, was planning to put 3 archons together with 7 warriors in a raider and deep strike it, to try to get them into melee as quickly as possible because i believe they can do some real good damage there.
Blasters will let them alpha strike better when they deep strike, while blast pistols will let them shoot when they are in melee.

Personally, I'd go with Blasters.

I can't see many enemies actually staying in combat with them.

Re: Lilith, you can probably make a succubus more killy, but my understanding of Lilith was that she could pick her stat bonus every round. That makes her incredibly flexible (t1, take +2 move, t2 +1 str or attack, etc).

 novaspike wrote:
Re: Lilith, you can probably make a succubus more killy, but my understanding of Lilith was that she could pick her stat bonus every round. That makes her incredibly flexible (t1, take +2 move, t2 +1 str or attack, etc).

Yeah she also has all re-rolls vs characters, she really is more of a character killer where the succubus is a better general killer, if you are taking Wyches for AI then Succubus is better.

So im making the finishing touches on my list and in my tired state cannot figure out if i should choose between..

A: 2 Blaster Archons in a venom with a barebones warrior squad holding backfield objectives

B: Using a raider instead of venom and putting the archons and warrior squad inside it instead.

How do we solve the max CP problem in theory? Some restrictions for thia exercise apply:

- We want acces to the agent of vect counterspell stratagem. In order to maxemise this we want a superior pool of CP then our opponent.

- We can only bring 3 detachements.

- Only brining patroll detachements limits our lists.

- We want 2 warlords. Vect regaining CP and d3 from haemoncoli.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We want outrider detachment in wytches. Battalion or spearhead in kabals.

Where does that leave haemonculy? Wracks troops play porly in mixed lists. Do we want haemoncaly wanguard with minimal entries?

Patrols isnt as good as you think, yeah you get +1CP compare, but 2 Battalions and +1 detachment like Outrider/Spearhead is 10 CP total, and you have a WL trait to gain back CP on both players uses of a 6+.

I dont think i'll every use 3 Patrols honestly, its not as effcient for what i want, via CP and FoC slots, i need more Heavys/Fast attacks.

I haven't looked at the points yet but i'm leaning towards a battalion, outrider and another detachment IDK how i want it yet but for sure.

I like DE to be full shooting for 1st 2 turns, then into combo melee and shooting, i dont really care about staying max range unless its a few units like Ravagers. I like to Melee even with Kabals lol.

Battalion: Black Heart
Archon x2 (buffs and WL no upgrades)
Kabals x5, blaster venom - x2
Kabals x10, blaster x2, Raider - x2
Ravager x3

Outrider Wych Red Grief
Succubus
Wyches x5 - raider
Reaver x3 - x3
Scourge x5 HWB - x2

Detachment Flawed Skulls (need to figure this one out)
Archon (full melee)
Court with Raider
Flyer - x2 (if i can)


I love Coven, but I really want to play with LOTS of them if i play them, they are great even in small amounts, but its just the style i like to play. Edit: Unless CTC formation comes back or we can take them Talos in units again, that was fun

In this edition you need to shoot, a pure melee army is really hard to play. Considering that I think mixing wych cult and coven full detachments can be quite hard.

At the moment I think kabal+coven or kabal+wych cult can be excellent, but wych cult+coven or a mix with all the three keywords don't look that appealing.

I was thinking of using a large unit of reavers in a coven or kabal detachment, they won't get any buff but I can still give them a drug and use the -1 to hit stratagem on them.

My personal take will be:

- Flayed Skull Battalion, with 1 Archon and Drazhar, 3 Kabalite Warriors in Raiders, and maybe 9 Incubi with Drazhar in a Raider as well I'll see;
- Black Heart Patrol, with 1 Archon and one squad of Kabalites on foot in the backfield;
- Cursed Blade Patrol, with 1 Succubus, 9-10 Wyches, at least 6 Reavers and some Hellions (maybe a lot);
- Prophets of Flesh Patrol, with either Urien or just a regular Haemonculus, some Wracks and fleshy giants.

It doesn't work with 3 detachments limit but my LGS doesn't enforce that anyway. I'll have 10 CP starting, minus 1 for the 3 WL traits, + 1d3 from Urien/Haemonculus. My Warlord will be the Black Heart Archon with Labyrinthe Mind, hidden in the backfield, safely hidden. Might add Ravagers so that he can do something while he squats around, but I'll favour Scourges with HWB or regular Blasters just because of the aesthetic. I'll see with the codex in hand what I'll add or take out.

Blackie wrote:In this edition you need to shoot, a pure melee army is really hard to play. Considering that I think mixing wych cult and coven full detachments can be quite hard.

At the moment I think kabal+coven or kabal+wych cult can be excellent, but wych cult+coven or a mix with all the three keywords don't look that appealing.

I was thinking of using a large unit of reavers in a coven or kabal detachment, they won't get any buff but I can still give them a drug and use the -1 to hit stratagem on them.

You always have some shooting, it is 40k and this is DE after all.

Aaranis wrote:My personal take will be:

- Flayed Skull Battalion, with 1 Archon and Drazhar, 3 Kabalite Warriors in Raiders, and maybe 9 Incubi with Drazhar in a Raider as well I'll see;
- Black Heart Patrol, with 1 Archon and one squad of Kabalites on foot in the backfield;
- Cursed Blade Patrol, with 1 Succubus, 9-10 Wyches, at least 6 Reavers and some Hellions (maybe a lot);
- Prophets of Flesh Patrol, with either Urien or just a regular Haemonculus, some Wracks and fleshy giants.

It doesn't work with 3 detachments limit but my LGS doesn't enforce that anyway. I'll have 10 CP starting, minus 1 for the 3 WL traits, + 1d3 from Urien/Haemonculus. My Warlord will be the Black Heart Archon with Labyrinthe Mind, hidden in the backfield, safely hidden. Might add Ravagers so that he can do something while he squats around, but I'll favour Scourges with HWB or regular Blasters just because of the aesthetic. I'll see with the codex in hand what I'll add or take out.

The 3 detachments isnt a rule tho, it is a suggestion just like 2k points is a suggestion, and tournaments made it their house rule

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The 3 detachments isnt a rule tho, it is a suggestion just like 2k points is a suggestion, and tournaments made it their house rule

And it isn't even a suggestion for the majority of games. They specifically recommend it to people organizing events. The whole premise seems to have slipped into the minds of basically everyone who plays the game as a solid rule, though. So it might take some people by surprise and others may be resistant to it entirely, even if they aren't playing in any sort of event or tournament.

I don't play tournaments (and I won't as long as GW can't balance the game) and enforcing this in friendly games would be silly, people who want to play a fortification would be screwed with some armies, and so on. I get that it's an important matter for tournament players, but just wait and see, we don't have the codex yet, nothing happened yet, and we're already building lists based on rumours. Send massive petitions to big tournament organisers to include and exception for the pure Drukhari armies and maybe they'll include it. If people want to play those Ynnari shenanigans they have to stick to 3 detachments. I hate WAAC soups (fluff soups are fine) so I'm not too keen on defending Ynnari, as I also heavily dislike the concept of the faction as a whole, crunch and fluff.

What about a black heart or flayed skull battallion with a succubus as the second HQ and a coven spearhead?

This way I can field all my ravagers and talos, which is basically what I want mostly, kabalites in venoms and all the three HQs can have a trait. Eventually the bomber and/or a large squad of bikes if I have the points.

The 3x patrol detachments thing with kabal+wych cult+coven isn't that appealing to me because I don't want to field any wracks

 Blackie wrote:
What about a black heart or flayed skull battallion with a succubus as the second HQ and a coven spearhead?

This way I can field all my ravagers and talos, which is basically what I want mostly, kabalites in venoms and all the three HQs can have a trait. Eventually the bomber and/or a large squad of bikes if I have the points.

The 3x patrol detachments thing with kabal+wych cult+coven isn't that appealing to me because I don't want to field any wracks

But you lose your <Kabal> and <Wych Cult> traits if you do this, you still get the stratagems but what's the point in losing the 6+++ or the nice Flayed Skull traits ?

You do not want to contaminate your detachments with keywords as you will loose bonuses

 Blackie wrote:
What about a black heart or flayed skull battallion with a succubus as the second HQ and a coven spearhead?

This way I can field all my ravagers and talos, which is basically what I want mostly, kabalites in venoms and all the three HQs can have a trait. Eventually the bomber and/or a large squad of bikes if I have the points.

The 3x patrol detachments thing with kabal+wych cult+coven isn't that appealing to me because I don't want to field any wracks

 Niiai wrote:
You do not want to contaminate your detachments with keywords as you will loose bonuses

This^.

You should be able to make the list the way you want, just need to fiddle with it a bit, at worst case, you might need 1 more HQ or 1 more Troop to do it.

What about double battalion or battalion outrider and then a supreme command detachment.

Can take black heart archon, homonculus and a third hq and still get flayed skull kabalite battalion and either battalion or outrider of wych cult. That way still get the preferred obsessions, but also get the black heart archon and homonculus for the triple warlord and extra cp boost.

If I were playing within the restrictions above (maximum CP, with Agents of Vect available) I'd skip the three patrols, and go for:

Black Heart: Either an airwing detachment, or a Spearhead detachment with the rerollchon and 3 ravagers. Both seem strong, both seem like something you're highly likely to see souped into Aeldari lists in competitive to get access to stratagems for your Ynnari detachment

Then Coven - Battalion. Wracks are solid. Haemonculi are solid. I would also consider bringing Drazar as the second HQ here if he really does go down around 90 points because that seems like a pretty good independent beatstick unit. I'd almost always take these guys as Prophets of Flesh, though I think a LD-freakshow with Dark Creed is much more viable than people think currently.

Then Wych Cult - outrider, either Cursed Blade or Red Grief depending on what units you're wanting to take. I think you can take a wych battalion viably, but it has to make up the core of your army and you'll want a lot of blaster scourges and for sure you want that Ravager formation around the Archon with dark lances.