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Imateria wrote: I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.
For me it's quite clearly Flayed Skull, we struggle with anti infantry so getting more hits out of our splinter weapons goes some way to help with that whilst the extra 3" movement on our vehicles is excellent, Ravagers having a 50" threat range normally only get 2" of space to play with in deployment when going up against 48" weapons like lascannons, and thats just not enough, going to 5" will help a lot.
Obsidian Rose helps a lot in that respect as well though pushes the safety margin up to 8" instead, this gives me a lot more freedom in my set up. Voidravens with Dark Scythes gain nicely out of this as well, the DS is still the better weapon for it due to the more relaible and higher maximum damage out put but the 24" range along with the minimum 20" move has on occasion left me without any viable targets for it, pushing that out to 30" range will certainly help there. Trueborn with 18" range shredders could also be a very good option for clearing hords, I look forward to trying 2 squads in a Raider to see how much they do.
Poisoned Tongue I think is going to end up as more of a fluff choice. It's an OK buff to poisoned weapons but Flayed Skull works out better whilst Kabal is not the melee part of the army.
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
I don't see the writ as "standing around trading punches" at all. Your archon starts on the board somewhere, your ravagers any that cant be out of LOS start in deep strike. Then just deep strike them down anywhere near the Archon and deliver one big nasty blow - exactly how ravagers are supposed to work in fluff.
9 dark lances without the writ deal 14 damage on average to standard T7 3+ vehicles. With the writ, they do 19.5. That's a pretty solid use of an archon, and a kabal list will usually have to figure out how to make 3 archons work.
Nobody's talking about black Heart being super good with Kabalite Warriors, it's clearly the worst with them. It is however probably the best trait for Ravagers and Flyers, so people are looking at taking either 3-ravager spearheads or flyer wing detachments of Black heart.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
Regarding the pistols, do you think Soul Seeker is that bad? It seems pretty decent to me.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
Regarding the pistols, do you think Soul Seeker is that bad? It seems pretty decent to me.
SS is situational, and in the situation where I'd take it, I'd likely be taking another relic instead.
In my estimation, the difference between a succubus with and without a relic, and the difference between a haemonculus with and without a relic is much bigger than an archon with and without a relic. So, in the situation where I'm running the triple patrol detachment (which is when I'd be most likely to be dipping into Obsidian rose) I'll have a succubus to take, say, the Blood Glaive, or the Tryptch Whip, and I'd have a Haemonculus to maybe take the Vexator Mask on.
That's the nice thing about our relics though: Most of them are good, at least in some situations. If you had the Spirit Sting maybe paired with a large coven detachment with a lot of wracks and Haemonculi packing Hexrifles, the sting would help you put even more pressure on characters.
I think part of the reason the Writ is so heavily considered is because of just how universal the desire for Agents of Vect and Labyrinthine Cunning is. They're just shockingly good. And the writ gives you a good use for the archon while keeping your warlord safe to cunn labyrinthinely the whole battle long.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Imateria wrote: I'm surprised at all the praise I'm finding for the Black Heart Obsession, yes the Warlord Trait and Stratagem are amazing but the Obsession and Relic are just bad when compared to the other 3 Obsessions. Given that all our Vehicles are T5/6 and the majority of them have 10 wounds or less, the 6+++ is worth about a single extra wound per vehicle. Given that no army out there has any trouble massively over killing our vehicles I just can't see anyone getting much use out of it on anything other than Voidraven's, Reapers and the Tantalus. I also see the relic as rubbish, everyone's talking about having an Archon next to Ravagers for re-roll 1's to hit and wound, but we're not space marines. You can't castle up and expect to do well as with 36" range guns you can't cover the board and we can't trade volleys like that with marines or guard, and rarely do I find myself having the whole army moving in the same direction, objectives and enemy positions dictate where I go.
For me it's quite clearly Flayed Skull, we struggle with anti infantry so getting more hits out of our splinter weapons goes some way to help with that whilst the extra 3" movement on our vehicles is excellent, Ravagers having a 50" threat range normally only get 2" of space to play with in deployment when going up against 48" weapons like lascannons, and thats just not enough, going to 5" will help a lot.
Obsidian Rose helps a lot in that respect as well though pushes the safety margin up to 8" instead, this gives me a lot more freedom in my set up. Voidravens with Dark Scythes gain nicely out of this as well, the DS is still the better weapon for it due to the more relaible and higher maximum damage out put but the 24" range along with the minimum 20" move has on occasion left me without any viable targets for it, pushing that out to 30" range will certainly help there. Trueborn with 18" range shredders could also be a very good option for clearing hords, I look forward to trying 2 squads in a Raider to see how much they do.
Poisoned Tongue I think is going to end up as more of a fluff choice. It's an OK buff to poisoned weapons but Flayed Skull works out better whilst Kabal is not the melee part of the army.
I think the Writ is just generally solid, rather than mind-bogglingly OP, and if you're playing a primarily Kabal army, there are few relics you're going to want more.
Helm of Spite: Sure, if you're facing heavy psykers and you have an archon with a court.
Many Crappy Pistols/Grenades: Pass.
Armor of Misery: Underrated in my opinion, because unlike the 4++ relic it doesn't need you to wait for your shadowfield to break. You can happily take 3+ saves vs ap0 weapons and 2++ saves vs APhigher weapons, but also requires you to be taking Obsidian Rose, which I feel is more of a niche subfaction purely for the deep striking warrior shtick/42" range dark lance ravagers are kind of nice I guess.
Djinn Blade: Good, but I think the problem is it has a lot of the "sexy factor" compared to the Writ. You're likely to get more mileage out of the Writ, even if you just get one good punch in with your 3 ravagers you want that to land hard.
I don't see the writ as "standing around trading punches" at all. Your archon starts on the board somewhere, your ravagers any that cant be out of LOS start in deep strike. Then just deep strike them down anywhere near the Archon and deliver one big nasty blow - exactly how ravagers are supposed to work in fluff.
9 dark lances without the writ deal 14 damage on average to standard T7 3+ vehicles. With the writ, they do 19.5. That's a pretty solid use of an archon, and a kabal list will usually have to figure out how to make 3 archons work.
Nobody's talking about black Heart being super good with Kabalite Warriors, it's clearly the worst with them. It is however probably the best trait for Ravagers and Flyers, so people are looking at taking either 3-ravager spearheads or flyer wing detachments of Black heart.
Consider me completely unconvinced, deep striking or not my Ravagers are unlikely to all be bunched up at one time, at best I only ever see 2 getting much use out of the Writ per turn. Same goes for the Black Heart Obsession on vehicles Falyed Skull or Obsidian Rose is just flat out better.
The Writ isn't bad, buuuuuuuuut, I think when you compare it to some of the Cult and Coven relics it's just not worth it. I tend to give my red grief Succubus the blood glaive (I mean, this is an autotake to me, especially if you luck out and can manage to double up +1S rolling for Stimm Addict, turning her into a one woman tank buster) and my PoF Haemi the Vexator Mask (super useful, charge a squad of wracks and a Talos into a big, shooty unit, denying them overwatch by sending the Haemi in First, and if the combat goes two rounds, relegate them to last place where I don't have to worry about them). At that point it becomes an issue of "is the writ 2CP extra worth of solid" and that's a definite no.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you really want to bunch up ravagers together, I'd probably make them Coven and bunch them up around a Haemi anyway. The added survivability of making S6 weapons wound on 5+ seems like a better benefit (for free) than rerolling ones (for 1 or 2 CP, assuming you're giving away other artefacts)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/10 13:56:29
"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?"
1) 3-patrol detachment, I take a kabal patrol of BH because I want my Labyrinthine and I want my Agents. But I don't want to give up my rerolls of 1 to hit or 1 to wound from Flayed Skull or Poisoned Tongue! So I take 20 warriors with shredders and splinter cannons as my 1 troop, I take the Writ on my Archon, and I advance him up to get him within 6 of my webwayed warriors. They reroll both hit and wound on their big attack, then I can even Fire and Fade them so they're controlling a huge swathe of the board.
2) I take him with Ravagers, try to keep him in range of them. As you said, it makes them a bit more awkward to maneuver, you trade that off for a not-inconsiderable amount of firepower.
That's it. It's a situational relic, like most of our relics. I guess my thing is, that's not at all a bad thing. Relics shouldn't be always good or always bad. You should build around them.
Now, as for BH vs other traits for vehicles...I'm not sure what you're on about.
The only time I'd ever consider it is for Ravagers or Flyers.
Flyers: 6++, and access to Agents of Vect, vs
+3" move, and reroll 1s to hit with any Razorwing Splinter Rifles. Um...I'll take BH here.
+6" range, on vehicles that can move 60"? I'll take BH here too.
So, we look at ravagers.
+3" move vs 6++: I like the 6++ most of the time here. Ravagers still move 14" and shoot at full BS with 36" range guns.
+6" range. Here's where it's a real choice. +6" range is mighty nice on those ravagers. But then you have to consider the stratagem. Ravagers can't use Failure is Not an Option. Everyone can use Agents of Vect.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I think that scourges are still quite solid. They bring a lot more firepower/point than do even ravagers, which we already all agree are very solid. 128 points for 4 blasters = 32 points per shot, vs 150 for 3 dark lances for 50 points per shot. Thats quite an improvement, and they are immune to T1 strikes for free. They are definitely more fragile, that's for sure though. Incubi also have a role, although with the impovement in wyches and wracks it definitely has fallen away a little. They still hit harder than any other choice.
I agree that the HQ thing remains a problem, however. I'm really struggling to find a use for the 2nd of most characters, and battalions demand 2....
Regarding the Writ of the Living Muse, the flavour behind it seems outright bizarre.
I'll confess to not being a grand sage when it comes to DE, but are they really invigorated by some guy reading the words of Vect? That's the sort of thing I'd expect from one of the Imperium factions being read the words of the God Emperor.
Also, I've been repeatedly told that no Archon would ever have wings, yet it seems no one has a problem with about half of them lugging around iron tablets so that they can bore their Ravager crews to death with them.
And why an iron tablet? I know Vect has lived for a long time, but I'm pretty sure it was well past the Iron Age in the Dark City by the time he was born. Could they not maybe have carved his words into a lighter material? Or maybe have them in an ebook? And if you desperately need them on an iron tablet for some reason, could you at least use something else when going on a raid?
Sorry, but for some reason this really bugs me. It's like they took an artefact right out of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and just changed the name on it to 'Vect'.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Lithanial wrote: The main niggle is that at LD6 i wouldn't want to take full units of 4.
Isn't their Ld irrelevant though, given that they're single-model units?
Oh geez that's rather brutal for an opponent actually trying to shoot at them.... like, make your opponent want to punch you in the face brutal. Although it's equally brutal on the amount of deployments a Court of the Archon adds to your force which may or may not be of importance depending on your list.... plus all those charge rolls....
I kind of hope they get FAQ'd into one unit per Court since they are no longer characters, just for ease of game flow on all sides, but I certainly won't hold my breath.
Despite those flow niggles though, the following infantry core split over 2 patrols feels quite nice for actually making use of two Archons.
---
Archon 1 - Warlord Loadout of choice
Archon 2 - Sslyth Babysitter with possible Helm of Spite (Try and dig that out of a nest of 6 Sslyth)
6 Sslyth split across 2 Courts
10 Man Kabalite Warriors - PGL, Splinter Cannon, 2x Blaster
10 Man Kabalite Warriors - PGL, Splinter Cannon, 2x Blaster
---
You get around 36 Splinter hits out to 18" from the Sslyth and Kabalites with all the buffs and it comes in pretty cheap too costing just a little over 500 points so leaves plenty of room to expand.
vipoid wrote: Regarding the Writ of the Living Muse, the flavour behind it seems outright bizarre.
I'll confess to not being a grand sage when it comes to DE, but are they really invigorated by some guy reading the words of Vect? That's the sort of thing I'd expect from one of the Imperium factions being read the words of the God Emperor.
Also, I've been repeatedly told that no Archon would ever have wings, yet it seems no one has a problem with about half of them lugging around iron tablets so that they can bore their Ravager crews to death with them.
And why an iron tablet? I know Vect has lived for a long time, but I'm pretty sure it was well past the Iron Age in the Dark City by the time he was born. Could they not maybe have carved his words into a lighter material? Or maybe have them in an ebook? And if you desperately need them on an iron tablet for some reason, could you at least use something else when going on a raid?
Sorry, but for some reason this really bugs me. It's like they took an artefact right out of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and just changed the name on it to 'Vect'.
You could just model the archon reading from the tablets in a hat as he live-dictates the book of Drukhari to the Ravager crews so later on they can form the church of the latter day muses.
Alternatively, you could model him with a big beard breaking the tablets over his knee after coming down from the spire to find his Drukhari worshipping a golden idol of slaanesh.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Regarding Sslyth, how do you guys think they compare to Grotesques?
They both have S5 T5 and a 5++, though Grotesques have an extra wound.
Grotesques have more attacks than the Sslyth, but the Sslyth get to reroll all misses when near an Archon (average 2.67 hits for the Sslyth vs 3.3 for the Grots).
Grotesques have an extra point of AP on their weapons.
However, Sslyth each have 3 poison shots at 18" (again with rerolls if disembarked and an Archon is nearby), they don't take up 2 spaces in a transport and they cost 8pts less per model than Grotesques.
So, when playing pure Kabal, do you think Sslyth could be used in a similar manner to Grotesques?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
You're also disregarding that the grots will either have AP-3 or (more likely) a 4++, and also have access to +1T, +1S, +1LD, and Sslyth are limited to 4 per detachment.
But in general, yeah, they have a fairly similar role as heavy infantry, and you use a venom with a court in it similarly to how you'd use a Raider with Grots+haemonculus.
I'd take a court in every detachment pretty much. I'd probably consider swapping sslyth for Lhameans, or taking a mix of both, Lhameans are quite nice and have a good amount of killing power for the points.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
So, which 3rd patrol for my starting force?
I have Cult of Cursed Blade with hellions, wyches in a raider (borrowed from Flayed Skull below), and the suicide succubus.
Flayed skull with Archon (rides with his wyches above), 2 5 man kabalites with blaster in venoms, 2 razorwing fighters.
And the 3rd wych cult I have a Succubus, 12 wyches and 9 reaver bikes. You'd think that Red Grief fits best, but since Power from Pain allows reroll charges after Turn 2, is that really the best option compared to +1 Attack from Strife? The wyches can be placed in webway strike, and if I drop them Turn 1, I can always use the Architects of Pain strat to boost them to reroll charges to help get into combat. Otherwise they drop turn 2 or 3 and get it automatically.
So which Cult first best with my last Patrol?
I also have plenty of points to add more units, but the above is what I currently own (minus the razorwings)
Vipoid, if you really want a mobile HQ option, here's what you do:
step 1: Get yourself some loaded dice that only roll 3s. Feel less karmically conflicted about this because you'll only be using them to give your opponent an advantage
Step 2: Take a succubus from Strife and give her the stimm addict trait and phial bouquet relic. Use your cheater dice on them (or just ask an opponent's permission in a fluffy narrative game)
Step 3: enjoy your 14" move Succubus who can OD to move 20" in a turn if she wants (flapped her wings too hard?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: on a different topic:
Has anyone considered how they might approach a Freakshow army configuration in 8th with the new codex?
It seems to me that right now, it's almost viable, and with the almost-certain buff/redesign of the Death Jester and a few more LD-related shenanigans coming in the Harlequin codex, we might see Freakshows making their triumphant return.
As it stands now, the tools we bring to the table are:
-Very easy access to a -3 LD debuff stack through Coven of the Dark Creed. 1 Raider/Haemonculus/Grotesque or Raider/2 squads of Wracks transport combo that gets within range of an enemy unit instantly stacks them to -3.
-Kabal of the Black Heart can offer easy access to Phantasm Launchers for targeted -1LD, and the Archon warlord trait "roll 2 take the highest for LD tests within 6", as well as the ever-useful Agents of Vect for denying Insane Bravery
-Craftworld Eldar can bring a cheap Alaitoc Battalion, with Rangers to help pick off enemy characters, Hemlock Wraithfighters to dish out even more highly flexible LD debuffs in Mindshock Pods and Terrify. A Farseer is also vital to bring one of the best spells for freakshow, Mind War, which can easily oneshot pretty much any character with stacked up debuffs. A Spiritseer can also offer Smite or Jinx, which helps all eldar factions to take down armored units.
-Harlequins can bring a Vanguard of Shadowseer, Solitaire with the Mask of Secrets, Death Jesters. Shadowseer takes the warptime spell to send the Solitaire shooting into the enemy lines with his -1LD bubble and melee power, and then just Smites and chucks Phantasm Grenades.
I think if I were doing a 3-detachment limit, I'd drop the Harlequins, but we only have to wait a month to see what new shenanigans their codex brings - one of the Masques will almost certainly be LD related and hopefully Death is Not Enough will see some new teeth. Mirror of Minds returning to a LD check would also be awesome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/10 16:01:47
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Man, some people are still crapping on HQ's in here? Seems premature. I know it is anecdotal but in my last game my archon was black heartwith the Djinn blade and blast pistol. Fether killed 2, 5 man dev squads, 3 interceptors, 2 company champions an artillery crew and would have dropped a heaven fall blade leutenant but I rolled below average on my blast pistol (1) and then again on my blade after getting 2 wounds (2d3 for 2 damage). Thats bananas for 86 points. I didn't roll hot either, just average to below average in fact.
It was not hard to get him there either. Put him in a red grief raider, burned aether sails then assaulted a small 5 man unit of scouts on the flank so it could not be wrapped. Raider died next turn but towards the end of his shooting phase and 8 wyches, archon and succubus hopped out ready for work. I had other raiders making them untargetable for a solid chunk of his shooting, wyches were ignored for coven stuff rightly so. wyches didn't do much but did tie up some models for 3 phases.
Red grief transports are insane. But archons are also insane. Would have killed more believe it or not had I taken flayed skull (strength 5 is huge). Black heart seemed underwhelming, I gained 1 CP back. Which was slightly below average but something to consider is I gained it back on my very last CP when it wasn't nearly as useful. Gaining them back early is awesome but games where you don't suck.
I see no reason why a pair of archons would be any worse BTW. For their points they are absolute blenders. Succubus was underwhelming but I failed all her 3++ so it was not a fair showing. I actually think taking them with shard nets and impalers is the best option, you can easily tie down units for the entire game and for only 55 points. She also can solo buff characters well with that 2 damage.
Also a cheeky trick I used on my talos unit was fire an fade after advancing them up. I took haywire blasters so I could advance and shoot, then got another free 7" for 1 CP, unit moved 19" in one turn. This takes a ton of fire off the other threats in your list. Profits of flesh talos take an insane amount of fire to deal with.
EDIT: My list also had a brick of 10 grotesques, these fethers took the entire game to die. I think almost every list should run a unit of these in the center as an anchor, or WWP them in if your not using screaming jets (which might not be often admittedly). Thinking about running 8 in a tantalus from red grief LMAO. That's a solid PITA to deal with turn 1.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/10 16:11:16
vipoid wrote: Regarding Sslyth, how do you guys think they compare to Grotesques?
They both have S5 T5 and a 5++, though Grotesques have an extra wound.
Grotesques have more attacks than the Sslyth, but the Sslyth get to reroll all misses when near an Archon (average 2.67 hits for the Sslyth vs 3.3 for the Grots).
Grotesques have an extra point of AP on their weapons.
However, Sslyth each have 3 poison shots at 18" (again with rerolls if disembarked and an Archon is nearby), they don't take up 2 spaces in a transport and they cost 8pts less per model than Grotesques.
So, when playing pure Kabal, do you think Sslyth could be used in a similar manner to Grotesques?
This is what's causing my current musings.
With my Sslyth thinking, that's 2 Kabal patrols sorted but I need a 3rd to unlock command points. The Sslyth as already said compare favorably to Wracks and from the above are quasi-grotesques too so I'm not seeing too much reason to make that 3rd patrol Coven.
However in the long run i'm wanting to team my Drukhari force up with a Harlequin force so I am wary of overlap between a Wych patrol and the Harlequins. Not being an expert in Wych Cult in the slightest i'm now pondering how they could best fill a support role.
First thoughts are two Red Grief Venoms with some Shardnet squads to blitz in and tie things down but i'd really appreciate some input.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/10 16:28:30
There's not really an overlap between Wyches and Harlequins. Harlequins are basically functional Incubi (anti elite elites) and wyches are infantry blenders.
Corsair, I too am coming around to the Church of Shardnet. My first test game of a full Wych Cult army, my opponent had a block of 40 buffed up cultists (popping prescience and VOTLW the turn they came in) and my succubus charged in after a Raider and tied up all 40 of them. It was a fantastic moment of narrative forgery.
"You might as well give up! I have you surrounded!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/10 17:15:09
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Red Corsair wrote: Man, some people are still crapping on HQ's in here? Seems premature. I know it is anecdotal but in my last game my archon was black heartwith the Djinn blade and blast pistol. Fether killed 2, 5 man dev squads, 3 interceptors, 2 company champions an artillery crew and would have dropped a heaven fall blade leutenant but I rolled below average on my blast pistol (1) and then again on my blade after getting 2 wounds (2d3 for 2 damage). Thats bananas for 86 points. I didn't roll hot either, just average to below average in fact.
It was not hard to get him there either. Put him in a red grief raider, burned aether sails then assaulted a small 5 man unit of scouts on the flank so it could not be wrapped. Raider died next turn but towards the end of his shooting phase and 8 wyches, archon and succubus hopped out ready for work. I had other raiders making them untargetable for a solid chunk of his shooting, wyches were ignored for coven stuff rightly so. wyches didn't do much but did tie up some models for 3 phases.
Red grief transports are insane. But archons are also insane. Would have killed more believe it or not had I taken flayed skull (strength 5 is huge). Black heart seemed underwhelming, I gained 1 CP back. Which was slightly below average but something to consider is I gained it back on my very last CP when it wasn't nearly as useful. Gaining them back early is awesome but games where you don't suck.
I see no reason why a pair of archons would be any worse BTW. For their points they are absolute blenders. Succubus was underwhelming but I failed all her 3++ so it was not a fair showing. I actually think taking them with shard nets and impalers is the best option, you can easily tie down units for the entire game and for only 55 points. She also can solo buff characters well with that 2 damage.
Also a cheeky trick I used on my talos unit was fire an fade after advancing them up. I took haywire blasters so I could advance and shoot, then got another free 7" for 1 CP, unit moved 19" in one turn. This takes a ton of fire off the other threats in your list. Profits of flesh talos take an insane amount of fire to deal with.
EDIT: My list also had a brick of 10 grotesques, these fethers took the entire game to die. I think almost every list should run a unit of these in the center as an anchor, or WWP them in if your not using screaming jets (which might not be often admittedly). Thinking about running 8 in a tantalus from red grief LMAO. That's a solid PITA to deal with turn 1.
I really love your idea of a CC bus in a Red Grief Raider. I too believe Archons aren't bad at all in CC. I'll have to try for myself but with only 382 pts of Drukhari it'll be a long wait.
It's really hard to build a 2000 pts list honestly, there's just so many choices it's overwhelming. Deciding which Obsessions to use with each detachments/vehicles proves to be a pain (feels thematic with Drukhari).
I'm also tempted dropping the Black Heart detachment totally. I'm not playing tourneys, just serious games with good lists at my LGS and I don't believe I need to recycle CP when I can easily already fit more or less 9 in a 2000 pts list. There's many appealing choices for vehicles traits, and the "ram head-first into the opponent's lines" approach I'd like to build believes the 6+++ may be traded for more offensive power. Also, I could use all my Archons in combat instead of having one hiding behind a lamp post (not very fluffy either) for the whole game screaming "JUST AS PLANNED" all the game.
Concerning Covens, everybody is talking about Grotesques and they look rad, but their money price rebukes me. I could use some Crypt Horrors but to convert them a bit I'd still need the Grotesques parts wouldn't I ? I was thinking about having 3 Talos with macro-scalpels and splinter pods to assist my Scourges and Raiders in the anti-T7 department. They look durable as well, especially with an Haemonculus and the 4++.
Red Corsair wrote: Man, some people are still crapping on HQ's in here? Seems premature. I know it is anecdotal but in my last game my archon was black heartwith the Djinn blade and blast pistol. Fether killed 2, 5 man dev squads, 3 interceptors, 2 company champions an artillery crew and would have dropped a heaven fall blade leutenant but I rolled below average on my blast pistol (1) and then again on my blade after getting 2 wounds (2d3 for 2 damage). Thats bananas for 86 points. I didn't roll hot either, just average to below average in fact.
It was not hard to get him there either. Put him in a red grief raider, burned aether sails then assaulted a small 5 man unit of scouts on the flank so it could not be wrapped. Raider died next turn but towards the end of his shooting phase and 8 wyches, archon and succubus hopped out ready for work. I had other raiders making them untargetable for a solid chunk of his shooting, wyches were ignored for coven stuff rightly so. wyches didn't do much but did tie up some models for 3 phases.
Red grief transports are insane. But archons are also insane. Would have killed more believe it or not had I taken flayed skull (strength 5 is huge). Black heart seemed underwhelming, I gained 1 CP back. Which was slightly below average but something to consider is I gained it back on my very last CP when it wasn't nearly as useful. Gaining them back early is awesome but games where you don't suck.
I see no reason why a pair of archons would be any worse BTW. For their points they are absolute blenders. Succubus was underwhelming but I failed all her 3++ so it was not a fair showing. I actually think taking them with shard nets and impalers is the best option, you can easily tie down units for the entire game and for only 55 points. She also can solo buff characters well with that 2 damage.
Also a cheeky trick I used on my talos unit was fire an fade after advancing them up. I took haywire blasters so I could advance and shoot, then got another free 7" for 1 CP, unit moved 19" in one turn. This takes a ton of fire off the other threats in your list. Profits of flesh talos take an insane amount of fire to deal with.
EDIT: My list also had a brick of 10 grotesques, these fethers took the entire game to die. I think almost every list should run a unit of these in the center as an anchor, or WWP them in if your not using screaming jets (which might not be often admittedly). Thinking about running 8 in a tantalus from red grief LMAO. That's a solid PITA to deal with turn 1.
I really love your idea of a CC bus in a Red Grief Raider. I too believe Archons aren't bad at all in CC. I'll have to try for myself but with only 382 pts of Drukhari it'll be a long wait.
It's really hard to build a 2000 pts list honestly, there's just so many choices it's overwhelming. Deciding which Obsessions to use with each detachments/vehicles proves to be a pain (feels thematic with Drukhari).
I'm also tempted dropping the Black Heart detachment totally. I'm not playing tourneys, just serious games with good lists at my LGS and I don't believe I need to recycle CP when I can easily already fit more or less 9 in a 2000 pts list. There's many appealing choices for vehicles traits, and the "ram head-first into the opponent's lines" approach I'd like to build believes the 6+++ may be traded for more offensive power. Also, I could use all my Archons in combat instead of having one hiding behind a lamp post (not very fluffy either) for the whole game screaming "JUST AS PLANNED" all the game.
Concerning Covens, everybody is talking about Grotesques and they look rad, but their money price rebukes me. I could use some Crypt Horrors but to convert them a bit I'd still need the Grotesques parts wouldn't I ? I was thinking about having 3 Talos with macro-scalpels and splinter pods to assist my Scourges and Raiders in the anti-T7 department. They look durable as well, especially with an Haemonculus and the 4++.
The talos kit comes with a frankly absurd number of bits. I'm talking like on the level of it's got 4 different tail gun options, and rather than just giving you one gun housing and making you stick the guns into it, GW had so much room on the sprue that they give you 4 identical gun housings just to spare you the inconvenience. The kit comes with like 10 masks, all the cronos spines+6-8 talos hands, tons of little danglies and syringes and whatnot.
I made my Chronos and was so offended by the sheer quantity of plastic I had left over that I took a random beaten up necron destroyer torso and I was able to make a whole WYSIWYG talos with minimal effort.
Also, FWIW, Ogryn/fantasy Ogres also make very cool base kits for Grotesques as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/10 18:11:30
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Yea the talos kit gives you all the haywire you could want for scourge, plus all the masks and weapons and spines you need for grots. It's a fantastic kit. I have 12 crypt horror grots and 10 legion of everblight warspear grots. I'd say the conversion is easier on crypt horrors but it's cheaper and I'd argue cooler on the warspears however the material they are made from is hot trash to work with lol.
At Scotsman- Yea the net succubus gets work done. Its an choice that on paper raises eyebrows until you field one and trap a key unit in place. BTW love that narrative dialog you pictured, just the type of thing a drug crazy pit fighting champion would utter.
Still probably behind on all this but i did some number crunching last night (not a whole lot as i had to sleep for work) and i am of the opinion that yeah our melee will be needed for anti-horde. I didn't even figure special weapons on wyches.
Bikes don't seem to wound enough though still in my opinion. However i imagine bikes could hold the incredibly useful 'screening for overwatch' role for units that do better anti-horde like wyches. That or they just tie units down. If that's the case however maybe i should take bikes MSU style and just boost the toughness.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/10 22:38:26
I think they are points efficient - but its this weird combination of being cheap but not really doing much.
I mean doing 4-5 wounds to a vehicle for just over 90 points is good. But its also kind of... meh. I feel they should come down and kill something - which to be fair they have never done especially reliably. They should make your opponent sweat.
Its very much a Dark Eldar as a horde army unit - you have to take 3. Blasters make the unit more fragile - and I don't think are much more efficient in terms of expected damage/points cost - but with some hot rolling on D6 damage you can at least kill something straight up. (I guess if you roll a lot of 6s you can do the same with haywire, but that seems less likely.)
Also not really clear where this idea that poison sucks comes from. Kabalites look pretty solid vs anything I can think of - they do better than most infantry for their points as far as I can see. I agree Guardian defenders would be expected to do more damage in most circumstances - but not so much I think there is a massive tier difference. The kabalites start winning with a reroll of 1s to hit or wound - and you are likely to get one or the other from obsessions.
Meanwhile Kabalites are less efficient to shoot and can at least contribute a little when outside 12".
There at last, finished my first draft for a 2000 pts list. Here it is:
Spoiler:
Batallion - Flayed Skull
- Archon, Warlord, Famed Savagery, Obsidian Veil, Huskblade and Blast pistol (In a Raider with 8 Wyches and the drugged Succubus)
- Archon, Agoniser
- 2x10 Warriors, Shredder, Splinter Cannon, in a Raider with DL, Splinter racks and Shock prow
- 5 Warriors, Blaster, Blast pistol, Power sword, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons
- 10 Scourges, 4 Haywire Blasters
Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Hydra gauntlets
- 5 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler, in a Venom with 2 Splinter cannons
Patrol - Red Grief
- Succubus, Stimm Addict, Blood Glaive
- 8 Wyches, Shardnet & Impaler
- Raider with DL and Shock Prow
- 2x6 Reavers, 2 Blasters, 2 Grav-talons
22 units, 94 models, 15 deployments, 100 PL, 10 CP (+1d3, -2 from relics and warlord traits).
I shamelessly stole the idea from Red Corsair for the Succu-bus with CC Archon. The Coven patrol takes board space while making for the frontlines on foot, buffed by the Haemonculus, the Reavers will either tarpit and/or focus on crippling enemy vehicles by shooting and charging them if possible, the Warriors shoot whatever is juicy enough for them, the Venoms shoot stuff and deliver the 5 Wyches where needed (they're more there as a tax really), and the Archon and Succubus on foot do whatever they can to either tie up enemy units or contest objectives. Scourges I'm not sure at all with their loadout, I feel like loading them up with Blasters would prove too pricy (and a pain to find so much Blasters), and I'm not certain on the use of the Haywire. If my opponent don't have vehicles they're just nice bolters. But they're cheap so why not ? I added 5 more Scourges for ablative wounds, and because their Shardcarbines aren't too bad.
vipoid wrote: Regarding the Writ of the Living Muse, the flavour behind it seems outright bizarre.
I'll confess to not being a grand sage when it comes to DE, but are they really invigorated by some guy reading the words of Vect? That's the sort of thing I'd expect from one of the Imperium factions being read the words of the God Emperor.
Also, I've been repeatedly told that no Archon would ever have wings, yet it seems no one has a problem with about half of them lugging around iron tablets so that they can bore their Ravager crews to death with them.
And why an iron tablet? I know Vect has lived for a long time, but I'm pretty sure it was well past the Iron Age in the Dark City by the time he was born. Could they not maybe have carved his words into a lighter material? Or maybe have them in an ebook? And if you desperately need them on an iron tablet for some reason, could you at least use something else when going on a raid?
Sorry, but for some reason this really bugs me. It's like they took an artefact right out of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and just changed the name on it to 'Vect'.
You could just model the archon reading from the tablets in a hat as he live-dictates the book of Drukhari to the Ravager crews so later on they can form the church of the latter day muses.
Alternatively, you could model him with a big beard breaking the tablets over his knee after coming down from the spire to find his Drukhari worshipping a golden idol of slaanesh.
I GIVE TO YOU THESE FIFT--
*CRASH*
THESE TEN COMMANDMENTS FROM VECT
"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?"
karandrasss wrote: So Nick Nanavati thinks Kabals are the worst, Scourges are underwhelming, and Wyches shutting down the enemy army is the way to go. Thoughts?
I thing Kabals, for their price, are a great way to keep your opponent under pressure while the scarier stuff mops up. And you never convince me not to love Scourges.
"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?"
karandrasss wrote: So Nick Nanavati thinks Kabals are the worst, Scourges are underwhelming, and Wyches shutting down the enemy army is the way to go. Thoughts?
I thing Kabals, for their price, are a great way to keep your opponent under pressure while the scarier stuff mops up. And you never convince me not to love Scourges.
Apparently not as good as jamming 19 deep-striking Wyches and 9 out of a Raider with a Succubus down their throat.
