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I couldn't find any info on this anywhere. This would be pertinent in the cases where you have a plus modifier with a reroll on your unit. If you need a 5+ to wound, but you have +1 to wounds and reroll failed wounds, can you choose not to reroll a natural roll of 4?

Tetsu0 wrote:
I couldn't find any info on this anywhere. This would be pertinent in the cases where you have a plus modifier with a reroll on your unit. If you need a 5+ to wound, but you have +1 to wounds and reroll failed wounds, can you choose not to reroll a natural roll of 4?

If it says can or may, then it's optional.

IIRC the only forced re-roll is the Seraphim's Reroll on failed invul saves (see my sig), I am sure there is another example I can't remember.

Specifically looking for deathguards warlord trait arch-contaminator that says reroll all failed wounds.

Tetsu0 wrote:
Specifically looking for deathguards warlord trait arch-contaminator that says reroll all failed wounds.

That's a mandatory effect. Since re-rolls before modifiers, you're forced to re-roll even though you have +1 to wound. Sorry. :(

Yea, I figured that's the right way, just wasn't sure if gw faq'd it. As it's a gakky mechanic and could easily be solved by making all rerolls non mandatory.

Tetsu0 wrote:
Yea, I figured that's the right way, just wasn't sure if gw faq'd it. As it's a gakky mechanic and could easily be solved by making all rerolls non mandatory.

You're assuming that they don't want this re-roll to be mandatory.

I really can't fathom why though. Even if it was a way to limit and balance rerolls, it's a bad mechanic that only punishes positive buffs, which isn't fun. Also things were supposed to die fast in this edition. It speeds up the game and I would argue the game could be sped up further, especially after getting bogged down with more special rules from codices.

Things dieing faster just makes getting that alpha strike off all the more important and renderes the objectives etc esentially worthless as it takes tablings from turn 5-6 to 3-4 so it will effect tournaments. Non timelimit games usually end up in tablings in 8th in my experiance, unless its been prraranged to take less killy units.

Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

Well getting off these auras and buffs requires careful positioning and planning a lot of the time. So I would say it's one of the better ways of boosting offensive power in the game while not contributing as much to the turn one advantage, compared to just boosting weapons and stats.

Games ending early hasn't been a problem for me since the beginning of 8th and I would actually favor going back to that speed. It seems tournaments aren't having a problem with that either and are often having unfinished matches ending at turn 3-4.

Every game isn't supposed to end it a tabling, objectives are supposed to matter, not who cares I'm just going to kill half your models a turn untill you auto loose.
Tournaments should be making to turn 5 or 6 anyway regardless of how killy stuff is, otherwise building any durability into a list is pointless just spam the cheapest chaff. Tournaments provblems is people insist on playing 2k but csn complete 2k games in the allowed time. They either play 1.5k or get faster hence why tournaments are introducing clocks

 Ghaz wrote:

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

That's not true. When it tells you to reroll misses, intuitively people would think you add the modifier first in order to determine whether you hit or not. when it says to reroll misses and you are told by someone you have to reroll something that hit after modifiers, that's not intuitive at all.

 doctortom wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

That's not true. When it tells you to reroll misses, intuitively people would think you add the modifier first in order to determine whether you hit or not. when it says to reroll misses and you are told by someone you have to reroll something that hit after modifiers, that's not intuitive at all.

I run demos all the time and help new players. Brand new players to the edition/game (especially those with backgrounds in other types of gaming) have no issue with it at all. The only group of people who have a problem with it are existing or returning 40k players.

 doctortom wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

That's not true. When it tells you to reroll misses, intuitively people would think you add the modifier first in order to determine whether you hit or not. when it says to reroll misses and you are told by someone you have to reroll something that hit after modifiers, that's not intuitive at all.

No it's really not. There's nothing that would really make someone feel that they should add modifiers before re-rolls when it comes to a game.

 Ghaz wrote:
No it's really not. There's nothing that would really make someone feel that they should add modifiers before re-rolls when it comes to a game.

It's intuitive to consider the "final" result when deciding whether it's a hit or miss.

If the player knows that a dice result of 3 plus 1 (modifier) will hit on a 4+ difficulty, it's clearly "a hit". Being told that it's actually not YET a hit isn't intuitive.

It's only intuitive if you lack the knowledge to know beforehand what your modifiers are, but then you basically have your stereotypical bad D&D Fighter player that always misses at first, but forgets X, Y and Z modifiers and in the end lands a critical hit killing the boss in one swing.

 Ghaz wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

That's not true. When it tells you to reroll misses, intuitively people would think you add the modifier first in order to determine whether you hit or not. when it says to reroll misses and you are told by someone you have to reroll something that hit after modifiers, that's not intuitive at all.

No it's really not. There's nothing that would really make someone feel that they should add modifiers before re-rolls when it comes to a game.

I'm told I can reroll misses, and I miss because of a -1 modifier, yet I'm told that I can't reroll because the roll would have hit. And that's intuitive?!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

That's not true. When it tells you to reroll misses, intuitively people would think you add the modifier first in order to determine whether you hit or not. when it says to reroll misses and you are told by someone you have to reroll something that hit after modifiers, that's not intuitive at all.

I run demos all the time and help new players. Brand new players to the edition/game (especially those with backgrounds in other types of gaming) have no issue with it at all. The only group of people who have a problem with it are existing or returning 40k players.

That's fine; I'm glad they don't have a problem with it. That doesn't mean that the other method isn't more intuitive, however. These new players, if you don't tell them about the rule beforehand, I'm willing to bet that they end up looking at the end result until they learn that the reroll comes before modifiers.

 Ghaz wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

That's not true. When it tells you to reroll misses, intuitively people would think you add the modifier first in order to determine whether you hit or not. when it says to reroll misses and you are told by someone you have to reroll something that hit after modifiers, that's not intuitive at all.

No it's really not. There's nothing that would really make someone feel that they should add modifiers before re-rolls when it comes to a game.

The whole reason that there is so much bickering and confusion surrounding the re-roll before modifiers thing is because it's not intuitive. If I have a 3+ BS and a +1 to hit from some other effect, a die roll of 2 will hit. However, and very counter-intuitively, I have to treat that 2 as a miss instead of a hit for the purposes of some re-roll effects. It's a poorly written mechanic. Determining hit/miss status AFTER all applicable modifiers makes a lot more sense.

 Ghaz wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Tetsu0 wrote:
Another problem is that most casual players probably aren't playing it the right way. It's not intuitive or clear that would be the intended game mechanic. It would likely be a point of contention bringing it up in most games. Telling someone they have to reroll their would be successful result, would not be fun. They would likely view you as some evil waac rules lawyer, as almost everyone is not playing it that way.

It's no less intuitive to add modifiers after re-rolls than before re-rolls and new players don't have past editions to bias their reading of the rules.

That's not true. When it tells you to reroll misses, intuitively people would think you add the modifier first in order to determine whether you hit or not. when it says to reroll misses and you are told by someone you have to reroll something that hit after modifiers, that's not intuitive at all.

No it's really not. There's nothing that would really make someone feel that they should add modifiers before re-rolls when it comes to a game.

Except for the fact that you use modifiers to determine if you hit or miss which would determine if you re-roll or not. Every new person at our store thought it was modifiers then re-rolls so obviously that's the intuitive way to do it. But it is the way it is so that's what we will do.