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Prestor Jon wrote: Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.
Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.
Add this headline from the day before the protests:
You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And many more being severely injuried as well
I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.
At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.
Prestor Jon wrote: Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.
Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.
Add this headline from the day before the protests:
You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And many more being severely injuried as well
I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.
At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.
I just learned more about rubber bullets than I wanted, the IDF use two types and have a minimum range of 40m. I read a medical report put out by a Palestinian doctor who noted bad injuries from even further out than that so, no I would still say it could easily kill someone especially if it hits the right spot
A mate of mine used to be military security for some US base in country.
He had no qualms about his assignment, which was to shoot lethally anyone who got past the first fence and warning markers. Burning tires or no burning tires.
I heard an interview today with a mom that had taken her 15yo old son on a "picnic" at the border area...or whatever its called....on Saturday (the day after alll the shooting).
She claims drones started dropping tear gas an then when they were ruunning away her son was shot because he was "carrying a palestinian flag".
1st: why the hell would you think it any kind of good idea to "picnic" in an area that just saw killing and riots/protests the day before
2nd: why would your kid be picnicking with a palestinian flag, hmm?
Something isnt passing the sniff test with her story.
Prestor Jon wrote: Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.
Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.
Add this headline from the day before the protests:
You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And many more being severely injuried as well
I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.
At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.
I just learned more about rubber bullets than I wanted, the IDF use two types and have a minimum range of 40m. I read a medical report put out by a Palestinian doctor who noted bad injuries from even further out than that so, no I would still say it could easily kill someone especially if it hits the right spot
If the best defence of the IDF is the magic rubber bullet (likely at 3 times its "safe" minimum distance) there's not much to talk about it really. Not once, but 17 times. I suppose their tanks were using rubber shells earlier in the day, too? (to account for the fatality earlier in the day).
The IDF released this:
Which accounts for 10 of the killed, and their terror links. So they did have a kill list handy at the very least.
The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.
Prestor Jon wrote: Is there conclusive evidence that the kid in the black shirt was hit with a live round? Not knowing what rifle was used it's impossible to know what caliber the bullet would have been but even if it was just the Tavor that would mean a 55 grain bullet passed through his skull around 3200fps. There's no sign of the blood and damage that would cause in the video. It looks like the kid may have taken a rubber bullet to the back of the skull/neck which could have caused a lethal wound.
Are people really getting down to this? 18 people died. One of them a farmer working his own field by a tank shell. No Palestinian got closer than 100 meters to the fence, and soldiers were shooting from the buffer zone. No riot control bullet is going to one-shot anyone at that distance.
Add this headline from the day before the protests:
You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And many more being severely injuried as well
I do, that's why I specifically mentioned the range at which the shooting took place.
At +100m (more likely over 200 since they had been running away for a while) a rubber bullet will have a hard time hitting a human-sized target, much less killing it.
I just learned more about rubber bullets than I wanted, the IDF use two types and have a minimum range of 40m. I read a medical report put out by a Palestinian doctor who noted bad injuries from even further out than that so, no I would still say it could easily kill someone especially if it hits the right spot
If the best defence of the IDF is the magic rubber bullet (likely at 3 times its "safe" minimum distance) there's not much to talk about it really. Not once, but 17 times. I suppose their tanks were using rubber shells earlier in the day, too? (to account for the fatality earlier in the day).
The IDF released this:
Which accounts for 10 of the killed, and their terror links. So they did have a kill list handy at the very least.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.
They have first World Intel and counter terror tech. They probbly knew they where coming and tracked them.
Israel is quite capable in counter terror given there situation.
And yeah, someone planned for the worst having battle tabks on hand and drones too, non lethal drones but still give you a birds eye view of thr situation that people on ground not normaly have.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.
The other way to look at it is that they won't hesitate to use real fire against individuals in a crowd. And that's without questioning their shoot to kill on sight policy.
10 to 8 proportion is pretty bad in a war zone, but for law enforcement is abysmal.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Some comments from the opposing viewpoint. The IDF have apparently claimed the footage of the guy getting shot running with the tyre has been selectively edited to make them look worse, though as far as I'm aware they haven't elaborated on how. They also they have identified 10 of the folk killed as being militants from various known terrorist groups (I think Hamas said 5 of them were). Someone also released what looks like a drone image of one of the folks killed laying near the border fence with a weapon (as in, some sort of AK variant rather than just a sling).
Personally I don't like to jump to conclusions for or against either side, but I feel Hamas tries to play the propaganda card a lot so I tend to take anything anti-IDF with a grain of salt unless I can find solid information on it.
The IDF isn't any less keen on propaganda, and they are a lot better at it than the amateurs of Hamas. You should take everything about the IDF, Palestine, Hamas etc. with not just a grain, but a boatload of salt.
I just recently read a book by a journalist who worked in the area for years, and he described how it is impossible to find out the truth about anything what happens there, because everyone is constantly distorting everything to fit their own purposes.
I tend not to believe anyone and dislike it when folks 10,000 miles away with information filtered through half a dozen biased links in the chain of information act so passionately as if they even have a clue what's actually going on.
Though I do believe Hamas have a greater motivation to play the propaganda game, they have no chance of winning militarily so instead they're trying to win through global opinion forcing Israel to give up ground. I usually have to look harder to find primary sources of information from the Israeli side.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.
The other way to look at it is that they won't hesitate to use real fire against individuals in a crowd. And that's without questioning their shoot to kill on sight policy.
10 to 8 proportion is pretty bad in a war zone, but for law enforcement is abysmal.
Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.
And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 09:04:30
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The logical thing would be to assume the IDF was carrying a mixture of weapons to deal with a mixture of threats so if rioters rock up with semi automatic rifles they aren't throwing spitballs back at them nor are they using an Abrams to clear out prepubescent kids throwing stones.
The other way to look at it is that they won't hesitate to use real fire against individuals in a crowd. And that's without questioning their shoot to kill on sight policy.
10 to 8 proportion is pretty bad in a war zone, but for law enforcement is abysmal.
Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.
And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.
Israel is currently the sovereign state in charge of the West Bank and Gaza. Every Palestinian ID card is ultimately issued by Israel (if you live in Gaza or the West Bank the PA gathers the data and delivers it for you, but the issuing authority is still Israel).
As long as Israel continues to rule the West Bank and Gaza, it's law enforcement.
Don't get me wrong, it sounds terrible. Shall we also start going through and listing all the terrible things done by US troops in Germany in WW2? There's a big difference between "bad gak happens in war" and "state sanctioned genocide of millions".
Yeah, it's so damning that a group that uses civilians as bullet shields has a high civilian casualty rate compared to an army that is actively trying to protect its people. {/sarcasm}
Maybe the IDF acted poorly in this circumstance, I really don't know, but forgive me for not automatically believing the IDF are evil folk when it's the goal of their opposition to make them look like evil folk.
They don't need to. The IDF has something of a history of that, but since the US uses it's Security Council veto a LOT, we don't talk much about the many atrocities and war crimes of the IDF. The IRC in particular has pressed war crimes charges against Israel and the IDF for the rather long list of violations of the Geneva Conventions by killing and targeting Red Cross personnel.
Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.
And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.
They better have been acting as law enforcement, otherwise they violated the ban on using tear gas for military purposes.
You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
And many more being severely injuried as well
That's because what Israel calls 'rubber bullets' the BATF calls 'Armor Piercing' since they consist one or more steel slugs with a thin coat of rubber.
And, for the guy joking about tanks with rubber bullets, the British used to produce a 37mm rubber bullet. How is THAT non-lethal?
This one pretty much shows that the bit about approaching the fence is a lie. You can see in the background people getting much closer to the fence, but they shoot the man in the jersey closer to the camera, in the head. Surprisingly, he actually survives.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/03 22:30:18
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Don't get me wrong, it sounds terrible. Shall we also start going through and listing all the terrible things done by US troops in Germany in WW2? There's a big difference between "bad gak happens in war" and "state sanctioned genocide of millions".
Yeah, it's so damning that a group that uses civilians as bullet shields has a high civilian casualty rate compared to an army that is actively trying to protect its people. {/sarcasm}
Maybe the IDF acted poorly in this circumstance, I really don't know, but forgive me for not automatically believing the IDF are evil folk when it's the goal of their opposition to make them look like evil folk.
They don't need to. The IDF has something of a history of that, but since the US uses it's Security Council veto a LOT, we don't talk much about the many atrocities and war crimes of the IDF. The IRC in particular has pressed war crimes charges against Israel and the IDF for the rather long list of violations of the Geneva Conventions by killing and targeting Red Cross personnel.
Were they acting as law enforcement? I thought they were acting as soldiers.
And the civilian to military casualty rate, we don't really know at the moment do we? That's just the 10 the IDF had identified, doesn't mean the other 8 were innocent. It also isn't necessarily the IDF's fault even if they were innocent, maybe it is or maybe it isnt, we just don't really know, if people doing dangerous crap hide are hiding themselves among innocents then harm to those innocents becomes a possibility.
They better have been acting as law enforcement, otherwise they violated the ban on using tear gas for military purposes.
You know there are tons of instances of rubber bullets killing rioters rght?
And many more being severely injuried as well
That's because what Israel calls 'rubber bullets' the BATF calls 'Armor Piercing' since they consist one or more steel slugs with a thin coat of rubber.
And, for the guy joking about tanks with rubber bullets, the British used to produce a 37mm rubber bullet. How is THAT non-lethal?
Depends on velocity of the round in question.
They still use a variety of that same plastic round it seems. They are 37mm by some 100mm total. There a big ass lump of plastic not a steel round coated in rubber.
Rubber bullets or baton rounds can be lethal yes. As pictures show there used from a dedicated weapon in the UK. Israel may use them alot more but there not unquie in being willing to employ them.
And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask.
The situations in gaza and so is truly messed up. However both sides have upped the ente beyond count.
Hamas encouraged. Israel reacts badly. The pattern had been repeated dozens of times. Its almost a sick game.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
People with a death wish get stoked up into a homicidal fervour by religious fanatics and march en masse in their thousands to throw rocks and petrol bombs at the soldiers manning a heavily defended border fence of a Nation with a notorious reputation for disproportionate military responses...and the results are entirely predictable.
I'm not sure what reaction I'm supposed to feel other than...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 23:50:53
jhe90 wrote: And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask
The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP)
The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.
Tear gas is banned during warfare...not police actions. There is no war here.
The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.
Tear gas is banned during warfare...not police actions. There is no war here.
Problem being the IDF lives on that grey area where both tear gas and shooting live bullets into crowds are acceptable.
The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 07:51:16
jhe90 wrote: And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask
The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.
Well according to the Geneva Protocol, Israel's needing to follow the treaty is only valid against other participating states which are observing the protocol per Reservation 1 and 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol A member of the protocol is free to use chemical weapons vs non-signatories, and conditionally vs other signatories.
In December, Palestine filed paperwork to become part of the treaty. Its unclear when that would take effect and make them protected under the treaty.
And this is just if we are talking warfare and not police actions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 07:57:32
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.
Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.
Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 08:08:20
jhe90 wrote: And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask
The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.
Well according to the Geneva Protocol, Israel's needing to follow the treaty is only valid against other participating states which are observing the protocol per Reservation 1 and 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol A member of the protocol is free to use chemical weapons vs non-signatories, and conditionally vs other signatories.
You mean the treaties Israel refuses to acknowledge because the West Bank and the Gaza strip are no longer claimed by Jordan/Egypt and Palestine has never existed?
Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.
Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.
Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.
The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.
Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.
Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.
Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.
Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.
The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.
Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.
The UN will force other countries to do stuff....
Israel doesn't recognise it as a state, though allow it to self govern and don't actively station troops their full time (just most of the time). They aren't Israeli citizens, so the Israelis don't have to treat them like they are. Of course the Israelis take the same stance as anyone within their country that don't subscribe to Israel being a state as well.
...Though how would say America react if 17,000 civilians decided to turn up at the Baja border and start crap? Obviously with the alignment to terrorist organisations over tones being in effect as well (like it all being one big attempt for some cartel to rush citizens into the other country/ start a movement to retake lost land, etc).
The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.
Tear gas is banned during warfare...not police actions. There is no war here.
Yeah that was my point... If Israel considers this law enforcement the use of tanks and snipers is pretty excessive. If they don't consider it law enforcement then the use is illegal, hence my two "for" parts. Also police actions are bad terminology, as that could refer to both internal and external operations, if this is an external operation its still illegal, as the host country would have to give permission.
So the real question is, would they be allowed to use tear gas on protestors if they aren't moving on the border? I'm pretty sure that's a no and therefore illegal. So like everything its on a case by case basis.
jhe90 wrote: And Idf uses alot of tear gas. But yes soldiers however would you rather they use lethal weaponry. Tear gas is a effective way to break up crowds and make a area secured quickly be being uncrossable to someone not wearing a gas mask
The problem with the use of tear gas by soldiers as pointed out by Baron is not allowed by international law. Isreali soldiers just technically deployed chemical weapons against civilians. For law enforcement the response is excessive at best, for a military operation its straying into war crime territory by the use of tear gas alone.
Well according to the Geneva Protocol, Israel's needing to follow the treaty is only valid against other participating states which are observing the protocol per Reservation 1 and 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol A member of the protocol is free to use chemical weapons vs non-signatories, and conditionally vs other signatories.
In December, Palestine filed paperwork to become part of the treaty. Its unclear when that would take effect and make them protected under the treaty.
And this is just if we are talking warfare and not police actions.
This is fraught with problems though, recognition being one of them. Mainly the West does not recognize Palestine as a state. So if Palestine could join the OPCW treaty but would not be considered a state by Israel and the West, would Israel still be in violation?
While being a signatory is great and all, it doesn't give carte blanche to do whatever to non signatories. We prosecute people based on laws (even international ones) they don't recognize. The problem with international treaties like this is that you have to use one standard, not two, else the system tends to fall apart. Yeah Israel could use numerous technicalities, but each use undermines the broader system, which is certainly not in Western interests.
Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.
Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.
Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.
The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.
Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.
The UN will force other countries to do stuff....
Problem being that Isreali recognition isn't the final decider. If everybody recognizes Palestine but Israel, Palestine is still a state. If Israel then doesn't behave towards Palestine, its claim that it isn't a state would be useless. But its going to be a while before the West is going to recognize Palestine
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 09:22:46
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2500 pts Prophets of Fate
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And this is just if we are talking warfare and not police actions.
I seem to recall, in this context, that sort of 'police action' would require Security Council approval to be legitimate. If we view the Palestinians as a hostile boarder incursion, it would qualify as military action, or 'warfare'.
However, as has been pointed out before, IDF has no problem committing total war, and has been known to call every dead chicken in the village a Viet Cong...errr... Hamas militant. No civilian casualties here, nope.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 09:43:59
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.
Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.
Not according to Israel. They have never officially recognized it as a state.
The UN and all the other countries of the world can classify palestine as whatever they want.....but it is as useless as tits on a boar.
Nobody wants to force Israel into doing anything, because...well....its Israel.
The UN will force other countries to do stuff....
Israel doesn't recognise it as a state, though allow it to self govern and don't actively station troops their full time (just most of the time). They aren't Israeli citizens, so the Israelis don't have to treat them like they are. Of course the Israelis take the same stance as anyone within their country that don't subscribe to Israel being a state as well.
They allow it to self-govern much in the same way as, say, the UK to Scotland, with a dash of intimidation for good measure.
There are no Palestinian citizens, but a blurry not-Israeli but not wholly independent either. A non-Israeli citizen of the West Bank or Gaza has an Israeli-issued ID card, which has a PA stamp and a PA logo in lieu of the IDF logo they used to have but otherwise it's written in Arabic and Hebrew and the database, number and cathegory are firmly in Israeli hands which also keeps the Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza subjects (since they're not citizens) separate from each other (cards are a different colour for each one, then there's an extra ID card colour for those banned from entering Israel proper). They get paid in shekels, pay their taxes to the state of Israel, are subject to Israeli law, etc. etc. Only recently the PA has been allowed to keep security forces, but subject to the IDF and with a very limited scope and covering only part of their territory.
They're not citizens in the same way blacks in apartheid South Africa weren't citizens, but they're very much part (and responsibility) of the State of Israel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 14:27:14
Protests a carrying on now with burning tyres and more wounded and so.
. Is it me or is this going to end up another gazan war.
Hamas I'm sure have been busy rearing there rocket batteries for future battles. Things are heating up fast!
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.
Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.
Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.
No Palestine is actually Jordan. They are just smart enough to want no part of that.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The military being occasionally tasked with law enforcement has plenty of precedent worldwide, nothing wrong with that. But shooting into your own subjects (if not citizens) with questionable cause and/or care is what should be put into question.
Palestine is a separate state from Israel. They aren't Israeli civilians. Rather a bunch of foreign nationals turned up at the border, aligned with a known terrorist organisation, and decided to start gak.
Oh look, a state's army dispersed a violent mob. Nothing to see here.
No Palestine is actually Jordan. They are just smart enough to want no part of that.
Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: People with a death wish get stoked up into a homicidal fervour by religious fanatics and march en masse in their thousands to throw rocks and petrol bombs at the soldiers manning a heavily defended border fence of a Nation with a notorious reputation for disproportionate military responses...and the results are entirely predictable.
I'm not sure what reaction I'm supposed to feel other than...
While you are spot on here, I must point out that Hamas, despite their name, is more political than Islamic fundamentalist nowadays. They're pretty much PLO/PFLP 2.0 now.
Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".
According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....
I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Actually they're BOTH Assyrians and Jordanian....with greater emphasis of the "Greater Syria".
According to some genetic studies, Palestinians are actually descended from the Jews that chose to remain the area and eventually embraced Islam. But both sides would sooner cut out their own tongues than admit that....
I mean, hell, the Ashkenazim still have not forgiven the Samaritans for splitting off of Judea after Solomon's death (if you think that they've hated Arabs a long time) and enshrined this hatred into law. (remember, Israel isn't just racist against Arabs.)
1750 pts Blood Specters
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
