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 Frazzled wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
But they aren't the West.

Culturally, politically and economically they are very much part of the Western world.

Nope. It's just another country in the ME, and it's only democracy. When Syria is right next door gassing it's own people, SA is bombing Yemen, Turkey is attacking in the North, Iran is in the East, well my give a gak meter just isn't working.

It isn't 'just' another Middle Eastern country though. Israel is very much a Western founded country. Almost half of Israeli Jews can trace themselves as second or third generation immigrant from Europe or the Americas. And almost a quarter of the Israeli Jews can trace themselves back to the early settlers and pre 1950 wave from Europe after WW2. Israelis are majority Western immigrant decendent.

And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?

Yeah, I agree with our Dutch friend here (for once !). I have always considered Isreal as a brother Western country.

I can't believe how stupid are the palestinian: after all those years, they still don't understand that Israeli aren't pussy (unlike most of the West) and that they answer to aggressions and violence by force ?
One day maybe they will have had enough and start to behave correctly.

 godardc wrote:
Yeah, I agree with our Dutch friend here (for once !). I have always considered Isreal as a brother Western country.

I can't believe how stupid are the palestinian: after all those years, they still don't understand that Israeli aren't pussy (unlike most of the West) and that they answer to aggressions and violence by force ?
One day maybe they will have had enough and start to behave correctly.

If only sense had anything to do with it. It is pure hate from the palestinians and with israel a combination of hate and fear. These are all justified emotions because of the crap both of these cultures have had to endure but at some point it has to end. If "the west" just stayed the hell out of it. Israel would control the whole area and no one would be talking about Palestinians - because they would be living in Jordan or Syria or Egypt involved in some crazy radical movement blending in quite well with what is happening in those countries. The west forced isreal to give back the territories they occupied - the west forced Israel to live surrounded by enemies. Israel can take care of themselves if we just stay out of it - the have proven that on more than 1 occasion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?

Why does it matter if they are more like a western country than a middle eastern one? They are geographically located in the middle east - surrounded on all sides by very unstable countries...how the heck are they supposed to act like a western country? They can't.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?

Why does it matter if they are more like a western country than a middle eastern one? They are geographically located in the middle east - surrounded on all sides by very unstable countries...how the heck are they supposed to act like a western country? They can't.

It matters because we treat them like one. If Israel wasn't a considered a Western country we would be a lot less benevolent towards them. Israel has been coasting on its Western relationship a long time, doing things we easily condemn other nations for. We treat them like a Western nation even though the things Israel does would be considered beyond the pale if any other Western nation does it. Israel gets the kid gloves and they know it. Israel won't go down in flames if the rest of the West is tougher on them. There is a lot of room for generally easy improvements even internally without even going into the whole Palestinian issue.

We sanctioned Russia for what they did in Crimea. But Crimea is repeated in small hundreds of times on the West Bank when Israeli settlers come in and force Palestinians to leave at gunpoint to build their little towns. The West just shrugs. Its incredibly damaging to our international position that it doesn't even seem like we put in any effort to reign in Israel. Again, it doesn't mean not supporting Israel, but we should really consider if this unconditional support is in our long term interest.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.

Lebanon who was for the most part destabilised by the influx of Palestinian refugees that changed a precarious ethno-religious balance. As well as black september in Jordan.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And? It's a ME country with ME issues.
Russia is a European country too. They could act like Russia and just proclaim Eastern Syria and Jordan just volunteered to join it all Crimea.

Ah, were going by geographical standards? I guess then Australia and New Zealand aren't Western countries either? Does that mean Europe isn't Western either? Last I heard most of us in the old world live on the Eastern Hemisphere, damn!

Yeah they could act like Russia and in certain aspects they certainly do (the settlement building). But tell me, how does the US and the West treat Russia again?

Why does it matter if they are more like a western country than a middle eastern one? They are geographically located in the middle east - surrounded on all sides by very unstable countries...how the heck are they supposed to act like a western country? They can't.

It matters because we treat them like one. If Israel wasn't a considered a Western country we would be a lot less benevolent towards them. Israel has been coasting on its Western relationship a long time, doing things we easily condemn other nations for. We treat them like a Western nation even though the things Israel does would be considered beyond the pale if any other Western nation does it. Israel gets the kid gloves and they know it. Israel won't go down in flames if the rest of the West is tougher on them. There is a lot of room for generally easy improvements even internally without even going into the whole Palestinian issue.

We sanctioned Russia for what they did in Crimea. But Crimea is repeated in small hundreds of times on the West Bank when Israeli settlers come in and force Palestinians to leave at gunpoint to build their little towns. The West just shrugs. Its incredibly damaging to our international position that it doesn't even seem like we put in any effort to reign in Israel. Again, it doesn't mean not supporting Israel, but we should really consider if this unconditional support is in our long term interest.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.

And why should we interfer in the israeli situation ? Aren't you the kind of person to think "international laws" and the independence of countries are important ? Wh should we oversee them ? They have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the palestinian, as it was said by Xenomancer, indeed it would been over already.

And why should we interfer in the israeli situation ? Aren't you the kind of person to think "international laws" and the independence of countries are important ? Wh should we oversee them ? They have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the palestinian, as it was said by Xenomancer, indeed it would been over already.

You realize this approach sounds a little bit like "Oh the Germans have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the Polish and Czech, the Germans would get their Lebensraum and it would have been over already." In general, it's frowned upon to advocate for eradication of a people just because then it would "at least be over already."

I'm not saying the palestinians are saints and the Israelis the devil. I'm saying this is a complex situation.

Yeah, Godwin point, nice ...
They aren't exterminating anyone, come on guy, you know it.

But that is what you are *suggesting* by asking for other nations to stay out of it, and wondering over when it could be "over already" if nobody supported the palestinians anymore. You think the Israelis would carefully integrate the palestinians as citizens if they invade the whole area? After they displaced palestinians for israeli settlements for years already?


The Israeli/Palestinian situation has been going on for decades, with a ridiculous amount of strife, hate and bloodshed in the meantime. We all know the solution to this problem will take a long time to implement and it will be a complex and careful approach to get gak done and get some kind of positive result out of it. I usually stay out of these discussions because I am aware how complex the topic is and I'm aware I might not have all the necessary information to make an informed comment on it. But I know that a brash "Ugh, this could already be over if only..." variant basically calling for the subjugation or destruction of one side is not the answer the international community should be looking for.

 godardc wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
It matters because we treat them like one. If Israel wasn't a considered a Western country we would be a lot less benevolent towards them. Israel has been coasting on its Western relationship a long time, doing things we easily condemn other nations for. We treat them like a Western nation even though the things Israel does would be considered beyond the pale if any other Western nation does it. Israel gets the kid gloves and they know it. Israel won't go down in flames if the rest of the West is tougher on them. There is a lot of room for generally easy improvements even internally without even going into the whole Palestinian issue.

We sanctioned Russia for what they did in Crimea. But Crimea is repeated in small hundreds of times on the West Bank when Israeli settlers come in and force Palestinians to leave at gunpoint to build their little towns. The West just shrugs. Its incredibly damaging to our international position that it doesn't even seem like we put in any effort to reign in Israel. Again, it doesn't mean not supporting Israel, but we should really consider if this unconditional support is in our long term interest.

Also surrounded by unstable countries? Not really, Jordan and Egypt have their issues, but are hardly unstable. Syria was very stable under the iron fist of the Assads for along time and very likely will return to that state. The only real country that is unstable is Lebanon to an extent. Its never been better for Israel.

And why should we interfer in the israeli situation ? Aren't you the kind of person to think "international laws" and the independence of countries are important ? Wh should we oversee them ? They have a country, they do what they think is best for their country. If we stopped supporting the palestinian, as it was said by Xenomancer, indeed it would been over already.

Simply put? International law is basically the foundation stone of US Empire. International law is the US exercising normative power. When international law does not get enforced but actively ignored by the US it deconstructs the informal US empire piece by piece. Not holding Israel accountable is speeding up the process of any potential US hegemonic decline. Letting Israel take Palestine shows the rest of the world that the US is a dog with all bark, but no bite. You think the international situation is bad now, wait until countries find out that the US doesn't care about enforcing its own very inconvenient (to more authoritarian countries) normative system.

Yes, I do believe international law and independence are important. But independence is not more important than international law, because that would mean not intervening even in cases such as Rwanda. But supporting Israel unconditionally as we are doing now is only hurting the West in the long run and damaging wider interests in the region. Even if were tougher on Israel, Israel can't walk away, because the West is basically the only part of the world that likes them. The West is all Israel has, yet its pretending Israel is all the West has, which is simply untrue.

 Witzkatz wrote:
But that is what you are *suggesting* by asking for other nations to stay out of it, and wondering over when it could be "over already" if nobody supported the palestinians anymore. You think the Israelis would carefully integrate the palestinians as citizens if they invade the whole area? After they displaced palestinians for israeli settlements for years already?


The Israeli/Palestinian situation has been going on for decades, with a ridiculous amount of strife, hate and bloodshed in the meantime. We all know the solution to this problem will take a long time to implement and it will be a complex and careful approach to get gak done and get some kind of positive result out of it. I usually stay out of these discussions because I am aware how complex the topic is and I'm aware I might not have all the necessary information to make an informed comment on it. But I know that a brash "Ugh, this could already be over if only..." variant basically calling for the subjugation or destruction of one side is not the answer the international community should be looking for.

If the Palestinians gave up their desire for Genocide and coexisted, like many Arabs do in Israel, then the situation would be better for everyone. Israel acts the way it does precisely because the Palestinians, and most of their neighbors, have active genocidal goals.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
To add something. The video wasn't taken during the recent protests but months ago. The only crime according to the Israeli government is that they made a video of it, because that's the problem.

Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
To add something. The video wasn't taken during the recent protests but months ago. The only crime according to the Israeli government is that they made a video of it, because that's the problem.

Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.

Yes, another soldier filmed it through a pair of binoculars.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Witzkatz wrote:
But that is what you are *suggesting* by asking for other nations to stay out of it, and wondering over when it could be "over already" if nobody supported the palestinians anymore. You think the Israelis would carefully integrate the palestinians as citizens if they invade the whole area? After they displaced palestinians for israeli settlements for years already?


The Israeli/Palestinian situation has been going on for decades, with a ridiculous amount of strife, hate and bloodshed in the meantime. We all know the solution to this problem will take a long time to implement and it will be a complex and careful approach to get gak done and get some kind of positive result out of it. I usually stay out of these discussions because I am aware how complex the topic is and I'm aware I might not have all the necessary information to make an informed comment on it. But I know that a brash "Ugh, this could already be over if only..." variant basically calling for the subjugation or destruction of one side is not the answer the international community should be looking for.

If the Palestinians gave up their desire for Genocide and coexisted, like many Arabs do in Israel, then the situation would be better for everyone. Israel acts the way it does precisely because the Palestinians, and most of their neighbors, have active genocidal goals.

To clarify, the warmongers and agitators in Palestine are absolutely the other half of the issue, I'm not trying to paint the palestinians as oppressed saints. I just wanted to express my frustration at solution-suggestions involving the subjugation or destruction of one side. That might've worked one or two centuries ago to some degree, but in today's world I don't think it's something that would a) work and b) should be supported by other nations.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.

Yes, another soldier filmed it through a pair of binoculars.

Who? He was prosecuted, right? I gather that's what you were referring to with the Israeli government's response to the situation.

I crave links. Sentencing details.

 Scrabb wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

Who was filming? If I was the IDF I'd definitely punish the sick person that cheered and celebrated capturing good footage of someone getting murdered.

Yes, another soldier filmed it through a pair of binoculars.

Who? He was prosecuted, right? I gather that's what you were referring to with the Israeli government's response to the situation.

I crave links. Sentencing details.

Short answer, no. Longer answer, his boss wants to give the guy shooting a medal and the video maker a good talking to: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43709737

 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?

Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Short answer, no. Longer answer, his boss wants to give the guy shooting a medal and the video maker a good talking to: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43709737

That's horrifying.

 Scrabb wrote:
That's horrifying.

The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.

 godardc wrote:
Yeah, I agree with our Dutch friend here (for once !). I have always considered Isreal as a brother Western country.

I can't believe how stupid are the palestinian: after all those years, they still don't understand that Israeli aren't pussy (unlike most of the West) and that they answer to aggressions and violence by force ?
One day maybe they will have had enough and start to behave correctly.

Palestine is in a unique position here. Modern warfare has a lot (not all but quite a bit) of public support needed. Too many voters/subjects/clansmen/whatevers are upset that the government is throwing their children into the meat grinder and revolt/political change becomes more likely.
Palestine doesn't have this issue because they're not throwing soldiers into the grinder, they're convincing citizens to throw themselves in.
Gov't sends your son to die, gov't is bad.
Your son chooses to get killed by a foreign power, he's a Martyr.
That's the brilliance of this. For every 10 kids the Palestinian's throw into Israeli bullets, they get 15 replacements.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?

Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845

Why do you call them protestors? Palestinians have no right to protest in israel - and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by finatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the agressors in this conflict.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:
That's horrifying.

The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.

I dunno, a load of politicians on both sides of the Israeli house have condemned the sniper shootings. For example, Yehuda Glick (a man who recently survived an Islamic assassination attempt) from the currently in charge Likud party, called it a "very hard video to watch. Disturbing and disappointing." On the flip hand side, people in his own party have defended it, others still with no relation are refusing to judge without context. Like most places, Israel is no mono-mind.

No, if Israel has one policy that tends to echo across the political stratum, it's that of 'Nobody likes us, we don't care, the Army defends us and can therefore do no wrong'. In other words, I don't think it's so much about condoning shooting Arabs as it is defending the armed forces; who they perceive as being the bulwark between them and the latest round of missiles/bombings/casual murders. Which in all fairness, it is. That creates a certain reluctance to judge harshly when that Army is measured up and found wanting; especially given that on at least half of the occasions where such judgements need to be made, more context does tend to exonerate the culprits. Hamas and co. are very media savvy and quick to orchestrate misleading images, after all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?

Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845

Why do you call them protestors? Palestinians have no right to protest in israel - and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by finatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the agressors in this conflict.

Everyone has a fundamental human right to protest.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:

How many incidents where the Palestinians are deliberately provoking the Israelis result in shootings?

Depends what you mean by 'provoking'. Amnesty international reports that over 8,000 Palestinian children have been incarcerated by Israel under military law since 2000. Throwing stones carries a sentence of 10-20 years for children.


In other news, updates on the party which is still going on. Another person was fatally shot, and 969 were wounded, 233 were shot with live bullets. Of these, 20 were women, and 67 were kids. One Israeli official interviewed commented that there were fewer protestors this week. Whether he's ascribing the lower casualties to having fewer targets is unclear.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-protests-dozens-of-palestinians-wounded-by-israeli-fire-reports-say-1.5994845

Why do you call them protestors? Palestinians have no right to protest in israel - and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by finatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the agressors in this conflict.

Everyone has a fundamental human right to protest.

I don't disagree with that. What I'm saying is - no one has a right to go to someone elses country and protest. It's even more absurd to say they have the right to go into someone elses country and throw bombs at boarder protection. They should direct their effort to protesting against Hamas who demands the death of Israel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:
That's horrifying.

The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.

It probably depends on who you ask. Civilian leadership probably turn a blind eye to a lot of it because they see it as a necessary evil. I'm sure the people in the military - the high command - the probably have a policy to meet force with force where ever possible. I concede it is probably like this and given the history - I fully understand and expect it to continue.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't disagree with that. What I'm saying is - no one has a right to go to someone elses country and protest. It's even more absurd to say they have the right to go into someone elses country and throw bombs at boarder protection. They should direct their effort to protesting against Hamas who demands the death of Israel.

Maybe you should read up exactly what the Palestinians are protesting for, because you don't seem to understand why they go to the border. It has a significant symbolic meaning.

Also someone else country sounds nice, until you realize Palestine isn't a country but just Israeli occupied territory, because Israel doesn't consider Palestine an independent country. Palestinians only have sole control over roughly 1/5th of the West Bank and Gaza is what amounts to an open air prison.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Why do you call them protestors?

Because they're protesting. No one has strapped on a dynamite vest, yet, so it's a protest.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Palestinians have no right to protest in israel -

Or vote, own property, or enjoy the rights of any other citizen. And, believe it or not, the UN outlined that that was to happen. Israel has never actually paid for the property they've taken, or allowed Palestinians who agree to allow that Israel exists to return to their illegally seized homes. You know, like they were supposed to do under international treaty. It's, in fact, one of the things that's being protested.

 Xenomancers wrote:

and you know full well that these protest are more often than not violent. Call them what they are - they are unwelcome radicals with malicous intent (it's a forgone conclusion that people in these groups will be killed). The children have been robbed of a childhood by fanatical parents who are the ones to be blamed for their childrens deaths, willingly exposing them to harm, no one else bears responsibility for their deaths. Male and Female casualties are no different - so why even mention them? If you truely want this bloodshed to end - you would support israel - the are not the aggressors in this conflict.

A bunch of white Europeans come into a place, herd the brown natives into camps and slaughter any that disagree. You're right, it's not aggression, it's Manifest Destiny. It's clearly Israel's Divine Right to blow up hospitals, piss on the Geneva Conventions they're signatory to, incarcerate children for 20 year sentences for what amounts in other countries to petty vandalism, slaughter whole neighborhoods full of civilians who were no where near any Hamas positions, and invade their neighbors to slaughter any Palestinians who might be living in other countries.

 Ketara wrote:
[

The funny thing is, people don't believe me when I tell them that this gak isn't just random screw ups, it's policy.

I dunno, a load of politicians on both sides of the Israeli house have condemned the sniper shootings. For example, Yehuda Glick (a man who recently survived an Islamic assassination attempt) from the currently in charge Likud party, called it a "very hard video to watch. Disturbing and disappointing." On the flip hand side, people in his own party have defended it, others still with no relation are refusing to judge without context. Like most places, Israel is no mono-mind.

No, if Israel has one policy that tends to echo across the political stratum, it's that of 'Nobody likes us, we don't care, the Army defends us and can therefore do no wrong'. In other words, I don't think it's so much about condoning shooting Arabs as it is defending the armed forces; who they perceive as being the bulwark between them and the latest round of missiles/bombings/casual murders. Which in all fairness, it is. That creates a certain reluctance to judge harshly when that Army is measured up and found wanting; especially given that on at least half of the occasions where such judgements need to be made, more context does tend to exonerate the culprits. Hamas and co. are very media savvy and quick to orchestrate misleading images, after all.

"Because they're protesting. No one has strapped on a dynamite vest, yet, so it's a protest."
The article you posted states some where throwing petrol bombs - so it's not a protest anymore.

"Or vote, own property, or enjoy the rights of any other citizen. And, believe it or not, the UN outlined that that was to happen. Israel has never actually paid for the property they've taken, or allowed Palestinians who agree to allow that Israel exists to return to their illegally seized homes. You know, like they were supposed to do under international treaty. It's, in fact, one of the things that's being protested."
It is my understanding that in Gaza - Hamas rules. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006. So Palestinians can vote and own property in Gaza - correct me if I am wrong. Also I am in full support of holding Israel accountable for all agreements they have made with the UN and international organizations. If you know specific incidents that Israel is being non compliant with agreements they have made with the UN - lets discuss that - this recent event in Gaza is just a bunch of misguided people looking to become martyrs.

"A bunch of white Europeans come into a place, herd the brown natives into camps and slaughter any that disagree. You're right, it's not aggression, it's Manifest Destiny. It's clearly Israel's Divine Right to blow up hospitals, piss on the Geneva Conventions they're signatory to, incarcerate children for 20 year sentences for what amounts in other countries to petty vandalism, slaughter whole neighborhoods full of civilians who were no where near any Hamas positions, and invade their neighbors to slaughter any Palestinians who might be living in other countries."
How far back are you going here? Some of it sounds like war - some sounds like peace time. You also fail to mention the suicide bombings and missile strikes committed by Palestinians which provoked all of this - there is such a thing as counter aggression. If you want to go all the way back to the beginning - it was a huge mistake to relocate to Jewish people to Israel after WW2 - can't change that now though.