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(By nerfing it)

I've stated this elsewhere, but I'm somewhat convinced this is the right way to go so i'm taking it into full view and maybe get enough support to convince GW - at least if the community agrees.

If you make standard plasma weapons S6 and S7 OC then OC no longer wounds on 2s against MEQ/TEQ. This makes it more risky to OC against things like terminators who suffer most. It also means you must OC to wound T7 on 4s.

But, fear not. We can make cannons S8/S9 so they can fill a purpose more distinctly.

This change would likely come without any point modifications.

Thoughts? The only other idea I like is rerolls don't let you avoid overheat. So if you roll a 1 then you'll still get a reroll, but you'll also die at the end of the resolution. Which do you prefer? Something else?

S AP D Plasma Gun RF1 6 3 1 Plasma Gun OC RF1 7 3 2 Plasma Incin RF1 6 4 1 Plasma Incin OC RF1 7 4 2 H. Plasma Cannon H D3 8 3 1 H. Plasma Cannon OC H D3 9 3 2 H. Plasma Incin H1 8 4 1 H. Plasma Incin OC H1 9 4 2

One thought I've had is to remove the increase in damage when overcharging for the lighter plasma weapons (like plasma guns and pistols but NOT plasma cannons), and instead replace it with a boost in AP.

An increase in damage makes Plasma really effective at cutting through tanks and 2W elite infantry alike, so reducing the damage makes logical sense.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
One thought I've had is to remove the increase in damage when overcharging for the lighter plasma weapons (like plasma guns and pistols but NOT plasma cannons), and instead replace it with a boost in AP.

In increase in damage makes Plasma really effective at cutting through tanks and 2W elite infantry alike, so reducing the damage makes logical sense.

I like that, but then hellblasters would need to be ap5 to compensate, which isn't very useful overall.

True, but it'd also give a reason to use Heavy Plasma Incinerators (with them kept at 2 Damage). The points would just need to be adjusted.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The only other idea I like is rerolls don't let you avoid overheat.

I strongly dislike this idea, because it's an exception to an exception, which is the antithesis of elegant game design. I'd prefer it if plasma weapons were just balanced around the assumption that they will always have a reroll available and that the low-power setting is a failsafe rather than the default. In other words, set their points cost to what would be fair if they only had the overcharged profile and never overheated. Melta and flamer weapons are clearly costed assuming ideal use, so do the same for plasma.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
(By nerfing it)

I've stated this elsewhere, but I'm somewhat convinced this is the right way to go so i'm taking it into full view and maybe get enough support to convince GW - at least if the community agrees.

If you make standard plasma weapons S6 and S7 OC then OC no longer wounds on 2s against MEQ/TEQ. This makes it more risky to OC against things like terminators who suffer most. It also means you must OC to wound T7 on 4s.

But, fear not. We can make cannons S8/S9 so they can fill a purpose more distinctly.

This change would likely come without any point modifications.

Thoughts? The only other idea I like is rerolls don't let you avoid overheat. So if you roll a 1 then you'll still get a reroll, but you'll also die at the end of the resolution. Which do you prefer? Something else?

S AP D Plasma Gun RF1 6 3 1 Plasma Gun OC RF1 7 3 2 Plasma Incin RF1 6 4 1 Plasma Incin OC RF1 7 4 2 H. Plasma Cannon H D3 8 3 1 H. Plasma Cannon OC H D3 9 3 2 H. Plasma Incin H1 8 4 1 H. Plasma Incin OC H1 9 4 2

I like it. I think plasma gun's profile should be toned down and the re-roll of 1s nerfed, so your solution may be an appropriate one. And I agree about plasma cannons, at the moment they're not worthy compared to missile launchers or lascannons, they need to be more efficient or cheaper.

I'd completely cut any re-roll in the shooting phase to be honest, but this is about the game in general, not only plasma.

Scions make plasma good, without them it's not that great. I don't see the need for sweeping plasma nerfs.

 Marmatag wrote:
Scions make plasma good, without them it's not that great. I don't see the need for sweeping plasma nerfs.

Scions would be fine without their deepstriking ability. Forcing them to buy a transport or placing in the AM deployed zone would fix them completely without making them useless.

So nerf the best weapon SM have... meh.

 Primark G wrote:
So nerf the best weapon SM have... meh.

SM is probably the faction hurt most by plasmaspam. Terminators, bikes and Primaris are annihilated by the overcharged profile, while regular marines will suffer from the normal plasma profile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think a good way of fixing plasma is to simply remove the overcharged profile. Let it be Rapid-fire 1, S7, AP-3, D1.

Overcharged plasma should only add +1 to the Strengh profile, 2D is completely unwarranted and kills any special weapon variety

 Primark G wrote:
So nerf the best weapon SM have... meh.

They have hurrican bolters, twin assault cannons and lascannons which are all very good. Plus other weapons that are not bad as well.

Plasma guns are already extremely weak against everything with a minus one to hit, which is extremely common in the game.

Termies aren't going to be salvaged by nerfing plasma. Termies will remain a poor unit.

 Primark G wrote:
So nerf the best weapon SM have... meh.

Makes sense - nerf the best stuff, buff the worst stuff, make weapons a choice of what do you want to target with them rather than one gun to rule them all.

Plasmaguns need to be worse at killing vehicles than meltaguns, or else suitably more expensive. IMO the 2 wounds makes sense for an anti-elite weapon but the S8 is too high.

I'm on board with the S nerf for standard plasma, but I don't see any good reason to make heavy plasma even better leave it at S7 standard with S8 overcharge. It would still wound most tanks on 4+ normla 3+overcharged. Thats more than enough for a non anti tank weapon. Heavy plasma should be the weapon for picking on terminators, gravis armour etc. Making it S8 S9 makes it better than lascannons

 Primark G wrote:
So nerf the best weapon SM have... meh.

Or buff the other special weapons to the level of plasma, that's an option too. As long as it stops being a no-brainer pick, I'm all for it.

I do feel that making overcharged plasma s8 and subsequently allowing players to easily remove the risks of overcharging makes it very hard for other weapons to have a niche. How would a meltagun have to be changed to compete with a plasma gun? It would probably be easier to tone down plasma a bit (and possibly buff the other weapons a bit where needed). This is not about nerfing factions, it is about balancing weapons against each other to increase viable options.

stratigo wrote:
Plasma guns are already extremely weak against everything with a minus one to hit, which is extremely common in the game.

Termies aren't going to be salvaged by nerfing plasma. Termies will remain a poor unit.

Without overcharged plasma Warbikes, Primaris Marines, Terminators and Nobz would be a lot more durable. Overcharged plasma, and it's equivalents, is simply too strong. Reducing its strength would help, but I feel that the best solution would be to abolish the overcharged profile completely.

I personally prefer reducing the damage to reducing the strength - make it so overcharge is good at doing chip damage vehicles/monstrous creatures and can through weight of fire break heavy infantry without making it something that will automatically delete them. Keeping the strength as is while reducing the overcharge damage to one makes means that in a pinch the higher strength will still help out vs higher toughness things (T4, T8), but the reduced damage means you'd need to literally double the number of shots to have the same effect it has now.

At the very minimum, if Plasma is kept as is, it needs to go up in points - I've said before swap it's price with Melta and then suddenly Plasma is still good but not autotake, while Melta actually will have some niche as being the cheaper option.

pismakron wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Plasma guns are already extremely weak against everything with a minus one to hit, which is extremely common in the game.

Termies aren't going to be salvaged by nerfing plasma. Termies will remain a poor unit.

Without overcharged plasma Warbikes, Primaris Marines, Terminators and Nobz would be a lot more durable. Overcharged plasma, and it's equivalents, is simply too strong. Reducing its strength would help, but I feel that the best solution would be to abolish the overcharged profile completely.

Or just make overcharge very dangerous. Like D6 mortal wounds to the friendly unit on a result of 1, even if the re-roll ends up with a hit

I agree with several of the posters here that the easiest fix is to remove the multiple damage from the overcharge profile on the non-heavy plasma weapons. At the minute they're often a more effective choice at taking out tanks and the like than the actual anti-tank weapons are. Only one damage rather than two would still shred power armour but would require twice the volume of shots to take out a tank, which seems fine.

Another alternative to make the overcharge profile less effective that I've seen suggested elsewhere is to make it Heavy 1 rather than Rapid FIre. If you want to keep the D2, you're not getting more than one shot and if you move you're at a greater risk of blowing yourself up.

Then I think melta in particular needs a boost. I'd like to see it get another bonus within half range. The old melta was incredibly effective at penetrating armour and blowing up tanks within half range, but the 8th ed version pretty much even within half range has no reason to take it ahead of a lascannon that can shoot just as effectively at 48". 2D6-pick-highest damage within half range is a pretty feeble boost compared to the old 2D6 for armour penetration. Plus 1 to all wound rolls within half range might help (T7 on a 2+, T8 on 3+).

Not sure what you could do with flamers short of another total overhaul of the way they've handled former template weapons. The way they work at the moment is pretty poor.

 Bellerophon wrote:
I agree with several of the posters here that the easiest fix is to remove the multiple damage from the overcharge profile on the non-heavy plasma weapons.

Yeah, damage 2 is the biggest offender really. It makes Plasma very good against all targets in the game, with no drawback. Make it D1 and suddenly it's balanced again.

Not realy based upon previous edditions where it needed a 6 to glance battle tanks and 3/4 to glance light vehicals and 5 or 6 to damage light vehicals its now on 3+ most of the time occasionally a 4+ against vehicals it couldn't touch before. It need its strength nerfed back to S6/S7.

S6/S7 still wounds T4 and T5 on a 3+, overcharged still wounds T7 on 4+ and T8 on 5+ it also makes T8 a bit more worth it.
Leaving the D2 does allow a hard counter to primaris.

I'd simply switch points of Plasma and melta and reduce flamers to 5 points again. That would be enough to make all special weapons useful for Chaos at least.

The more I think about ut the more +1 to wound roll makes sence for melta at half range. It would punish players for allowing melta into range and reward someone for pulling it off

For it's points, I'd drop the strength and AP by one across the board. A plasma weapon shouldn't have the AP of lascannon, not really necessary.

I like the idea.

Please don't include ork kustom mega guns in this. It's been their plasma equivalent but it has long been a S8 weapon set that gets hot, instagibbed T4 and ignored 2+ armor (if it ever hit) back when all the other plasma was S7. Ork shooting doesn't need nerfs and I hope designers consider the kustom mega set separate from the plasma set.

The problem is that overcharge is too low risk. There are so many reroll 1 options that make overcharging a no-brainer.

CassianSol wrote:

The problem is that overcharge is too low risk. There are so many reroll 1 options that make overcharging a no-brainer.

That is not the problem. The most powerful plasma units are the suicide plasma scions.

I'll be honest I'm excited for meltagun variant hellblasters. I can see it now 18" ap-5 and a flat 6 damage