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So I would rather have the option of not paying for it at all and roll the dice hoping I don't have an accident or contract something that forces hospitalization.
Under this plan, I still pay for your healthcare.
At least be consistent and say that nobody should have to give you any treatment of any kind unless you can pay for it out of pocket and you should be left to die if you can't afford it. Of you don't have insurance, it should be cash or death.
Yes, I would say that would be a fair thing under the current system.
Grey Templar wrote: [ If I am healthy, I have zero reason to ever go see a doctor.
Thinking like this is why healthcare is so expensive in the US, and why we have health outcomes that make us the shame of every other western country.
Do you also not take your car in for preventative maintenance until your engine blows?
I do take my car in. But that isn't nearly equivalent to going in for a yearly checkup with a doctor. Cars break down a lot faster. And I'm not required to pay some sort of Maintenance Insurance on vehicles that pays for repairs and such.
But hey, I'll trade forcing everyone to pay for universal healthcare if we can expand protections for the 2nd amendment. If I'm going to lose some freedom over my finances I want some expanded freedom in another area.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 21:16:57
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
So a person who is young and fit might choose not to purchase health insurance. Because after all there are likely better more useful things to spend that money on. Like rent, savings, car payments, etc... Health insurance is expensive.
Now this person is taking a risk that they don't suffer some catastrophic injury or catch a terrible disease. But that was their choice, which is key. People here in the US want to be able to choose, and forcing them to buy expensive healthcare they might not be able to afford is a problem.
Insurance is only expensive because of the massive healthcare industrial complex in the US. I live in the only province in Canada that charges a medical insurance premium, and it's ~95 USD a month for myself, my wife and two kids. With 10x population, aka buying power, the US could provide universal healthcare with much greater ease.
I'm lucky that my employer has generous healthcare coverage, but if I had to foot the bill for my own healthcare I wouldn't be able to afford it. Oh and I would be ineligible for any of the Obamacare subsidies either. Thats why forced purchase of healthcare under Obamacare was bad because so many people are in my position. You make too much to qualify for the healthcare subsidies, but not enough to actually afford to pay for it. So I would rather have the option of not paying for it at all and roll the dice hoping I don't have an accident or contract something that forces hospitalization.
Affordable Care Act was a garbage compromise, but perhaps better than nothing. You folks need Universal Healthcare, stat!
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
So a person who is young and fit might choose not to purchase health insurance. Because after all there are likely better more useful things to spend that money on. Like rent, savings, car payments, etc... Health insurance is expensive.
Now this person is taking a risk that they don't suffer some catastrophic injury or catch a terrible disease. But that was their choice, which is key. People here in the US want to be able to choose, and forcing them to buy expensive healthcare they might not be able to afford is a problem.
Insurance is only expensive because of the massive healthcare industrial complex in the US. I live in the only province in Canada that charges a medical insurance premium, and it's ~95 USD a month for myself, my wife and two kids. With 10x population, aka buying power, the US could provide universal healthcare with much greater ease.
I think it also has to do with how Insurance works. If the pricetag for medical treatments was actually based on cost and set profit margin like other products and services it would be much more affordable too. Instead insurance results in massively inflated prices.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
So I would rather have the option of not paying for it at all and roll the dice hoping I don't have an accident or contract something that forces hospitalization.
Under this plan, I still pay for your healthcare.
At least be consistent and say that nobody should have to give you any treatment of any kind unless you can pay for it out of pocket and you should be left to die if you can't afford it. Of you don't have insurance, it should be cash or death.
Yes, I would say that would be a fair thing under the current system
So what you're endorsing here is that, if you don't have insurance or the money to pay, and step on a rusty nail, the fairest outcome is for you to die of tetanus. This is the option you would rather have.
I mean, what can you even really say to that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 21:22:32
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
No, of course not. Paying taxes doesn't fall under that, though. Your tax dollars already go to things you may not personally benefit from. Why is healthcare different?
Because its not really a necessary thing for the functioning of society. Roads, Emergency Services, National Defense, Subsidized Education. Thats stuff I do/will/have benefit from, and these benefits from tax money have been around for a very long time. Plus its something I can see, its tangible. My tax dollars pay for national parks and game reserves, which I rarely go to, but at any time I can choose to go benefit from it. Like going hunting for the first time this year.
The point of a government is to care for its citizens, making sure they're healthy is part of that, just like making sure the roads aren't crap, or that your food and water aren't tainted with rat poison.
So I would rather have the option of not paying for it at all and roll the dice hoping I don't have an accident or contract something that forces hospitalization.
Under this plan, I still pay for your healthcare.
At least be consistent and say that nobody should have to give you any treatment of any kind unless you can pay for it out of pocket and you should be left to die if you can't afford it. Of you don't have insurance, it should be cash or death.
Yes, I would say that would be a fair thing under the current system
So what you're endorsing here is that, if you don't have insurance or the money to pay, and step on a rusty nail, the fairest outcome is for you to die of tetanus. This is the option you would rather have.
I mean, what can you even really say to that?
Oh stop being so dramatic like everybody who had no ability to pay would always die. Yes, it would be sucky for anybody in that situation.
I'm not some total libertarian whacko though. I'd be willing to compromise on healthcare if I got something else in return.
No, of course not. Paying taxes doesn't fall under that, though. Your tax dollars already go to things you may not personally benefit from. Why is healthcare different?
Because its not really a necessary thing for the functioning of society. Roads, Emergency Services, National Defense, Subsidized Education. Thats stuff I do/will/have benefit from, and these benefits from tax money have been around for a very long time. Plus its something I can see, its tangible. My tax dollars pay for national parks and game reserves, which I rarely go to, but at any time I can choose to go benefit from it. Like going hunting for the first time this year.
The point of a government is to care for its citizens, making sure they're healthy is part of that, just like making sure the roads aren't crap, or that your food and water aren't tainted with rat poison.
Yes. To an extent. You don't want the government to have anywhere near as much control as many on the left side of the aisle would like, totalitarianism is not a good place to live.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 21:31:26
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Oh stop being so dramatic like everybody who had no ability to pay would always die. Yes, it would be sucky for anybody in that situation.
I'm not some total libertarian whacko though. I'd be willing to compromise on healthcare if I got something else in return.
"Well, yes, it's a shame that your infant had to die of the whooping cough, but if I can't get that transferrable machine gun, then we have nothing to talk about"
I mean, I don't think I'm mischaracterizing your statements. This is exactly what you're endorsing.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Yes. To an extent. You don't want the government to have anywhere near as much control as many on the left side of the aisle would like, totalitarianism is not a good place to live.
On the other hand, at least you'd live.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Grey Templar wrote: Oh stop being so dramatic like everybody who had no ability to pay would always die. Yes, it would be sucky for anybody in that situation.
I'm not some total libertarian whacko though. I'd be willing to compromise on healthcare if I got something else in return.
"Well, yes, it's a shame that your infant had to die of the whooping cough, but if I can't get that transferrable machine gun, then we have nothing to talk about"
I mean, I don't think I'm mischaracterizing your statements. This is exactly what you're endorsing.
To be fair, when I get shot by all the bullets from the machine guns, I will get healthcare to fix me up!
Grey Templar wrote: Oh stop being so dramatic like everybody who had no ability to pay would always die. Yes, it would be sucky for anybody in that situation.
I'm not some total libertarian whacko though. I'd be willing to compromise on healthcare if I got something else in return.
"Well, yes, it's a shame that your infant had to die of the whooping cough, but if I can't get that transferrable machine gun, then we have nothing to talk about"
I mean, I don't think I'm mischaracterizing your statements. This is exactly what you're endorsing.
Isn’t compromise the foundation of a functional democracy? Everybody is lamenting that there isn’t enough compromise these days. Yet you now spin this as me trying to hold dying infants hostage. You are better than that Ouze.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I don't think I'm spinning anything. You said that you don't think, sans insurance or funds, emergency medical care should be provided. This is literally what you said! Do you think only adults need emergency care?
And the argument is that there is nothing in it for you, so it's totally rational for you to think that. Again, this is like, literally what you said! I mean, I don't even have to embellish it. What you said was so insane that I can't even make it more hyperbolic.
Man bringing this thread back really was a huge mistake. The mods were absolutely right.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 21:51:28
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
...oh, also the blurb about using Military Funds to build the border wall... lolwat?Preeeeeeeeeeety sure the executive branch can't spend money outside the parameters set by Congress.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 21:43:41
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Only person making this thread go downhill is you. Chill out man, I’m trying to make this thread work.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
...oh, also the blurb about using Military Funds to build the border wall... lolwat?Preeeeeeeeeeety sure the executive branch can't spend money outside the parameters set by Congress.
Obama and Bush also send troops, but the details were a bit different.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: Only person making this thread go downhill is you. Chill out man, I’m trying to make this thread work.
In one thread, you argue that you shouldn't be forced to pay a penny towards someone else's healthcare.
In another thread, you argue that a private company should be broken up because they won't let you monetize a video about guns next to videos of a keyboard playing cat (RIP Keyboard Cat).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 21:51:40
I think it also has to do with how Insurance works. If the pricetag for medical treatments was actually based on cost and set profit margin like other products and services it would be much more affordable too. Instead insurance results in massively inflated prices.
That's true, yeah. Supply and demand doesn't really apply when it comes to "buy this product or die/suffer".
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Grey Templar wrote: That is true. Other countries are far more left wing than the US, but we are talking about the context of US politics here.
We are talking about the US, but the global scale matters in the context of deciding if someone is "crazy" or not because the word means something more than just "a politician whose ideas I disagree with". And that's where we see the difference:
The democrats, at their farthest left, tend to advocate policies that exist in other stable and successful countries. Whether you like that direction or not it's impossible to argue that it isn't one that is based in reality, because we see it working elsewhere. "We should be more like Canada" is not crazy. And that center-left position tends to be the limit. The fringe elements of the left, the raving lunatics with no sense of reality, don't have any meaningful voice in the party. They may vote D because it's better than any other party, but they aren't getting their candidates on the ballot and they aren't setting the platform.
The republicans, at their farthest right, go off the deep end into Alex Jones territory. They openly embrace fringe elements to the point that Alex Jones and the Nazi party are now the fringe elements, and the former fringe elements have become the core of the party. And they're proud of not dealing with reality. A key moment in the primary debates IMO was when Kasich said something like "illegal immigration is bad, but we need realistic solutions" and all of the other candidates jumped all over him for being soft on immigration and competed to see who could yell the loudest about BUILD THE WALL and DEPORT THEM ALL.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
No, of course not. Paying taxes doesn't fall under that, though. Your tax dollars already go to things you may not personally benefit from. Why is healthcare different?
Because its not really a necessary thing for the functioning of society. Roads, Emergency Services, National Defense, Subsidized Education. Thats stuff I do/will/have benefit from, and these benefits from tax money have been around for a very long time. Plus its something I can see, its tangible. My tax dollars pay for national parks and game reserves, which I rarely go to, but at any time I can choose to go benefit from it. Like going hunting for the first time this year.
The point of a government is to care for its citizens, making sure they're healthy is part of that, just like making sure the roads aren't crap, or that your food and water aren't tainted with rat poison.
Yes. To an extent. You don't want the government to have anywhere near as much control as many on the left side of the aisle would like, totalitarianism is not a good place to live.
Neither is a total libertarian controlled "government" if such a thing can be called a government.
And yes, there would need to be moderation, like in all things. The government should provide for it's citizens' health, but not control their every action obviously.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 22:23:48
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
Grey Templar wrote: That is true. Other countries are far more left wing than the US, but we are talking about the context of US politics here.
We are talking about the US, but the global scale matters in the context of deciding if someone is "crazy" or not because the word means something more than just "a politician whose ideas I disagree with". And that's where we see the difference:
The democrats, at their farthest left, tend to advocate policies that exist in other stable and successful countries. Whether you like that direction or not it's impossible to argue that it isn't one that is based in reality, because we see it working elsewhere. "We should be more like Canada" is not crazy. And that center-left position tends to be the limit. The fringe elements of the left, the raving lunatics with no sense of reality, don't have any meaningful voice in the party. They may vote D because it's better than any other party, but they aren't getting their candidates on the ballot and they aren't setting the platform.
The republicans, at their farthest right, go off the deep end into Alex Jones territory. They openly embrace fringe elements to the point that Alex Jones and the Nazi party are now the fringe elements, and the former fringe elements have become the core of the party. And they're proud of not dealing with reality. A key moment in the primary debates IMO was when Kasich said something like "illegal immigration is bad, but we need realistic solutions" and all of the other candidates jumped all over him for being soft on immigration and competed to see who could yell the loudest about BUILD THE WALL and DEPORT THEM ALL.
I think both sides are mischaracterizing the extreme wings here...
Both of you say these things because you're coming from a biased point of view.
Otherwise, it's waaaay too easy to start painting with the widest brush available to make your points.
If it's far to say many on the left would like for a totalitarian government, then it's fair to say many on the right would like a fascist dictatorship, correct?
Of course not. Let's not be silly. There's plenty on both sides to debate without resorting to hyperbole.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
whembly wrote: I think both sides are mischaracterizing the extreme wings here...
Then who is the democrat equivalent of Ben "the pyramids were ancient grain silos" Carson, or Rick "butts are fun" Santorum? If you're going to pull the "both sides are bad" act then you have to provide something to support it.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
The reality is that the government is responsible for the healthcare of it's citizens. This is because the government is responsible for the wellbeing of it's citizens, because that is why government exists. Further, by working collectively as a society to ensure everyone has their healthcare costs covered there is a net benefit to members because of the increase in productivity that results. Not to mention the factor of simply giving a dam about other people. If the US government simply footed the bill for everyone's health insurance flat-out I'd bet that within a decade the increased tax revenue would be offsetting the costs entirely, if not leading to a net increase in revenue.
This ties into the heavy irony that humans who act selfishly by and large end up worse off. Wealthy and powerful, sure, but that counts for nothing if you're miserable. Look at Trump, in a material sense he is extremely successful but he is also extremely unhappy. Hell, look at any of the pricks you see around you in your own life, as compared to the nicer individuals. Which group ends up happier in the end?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 22:31:27
feeder wrote: If it's far to say many on the left would like for a totalitarian government, then it's fair to say many on the right would like a fascist dictatorship, correct?
Of course not. Let's not be silly. There's plenty on both sides to debate without resorting to hyperbole.
To be fair, for many it's not that the government is telling people what to do. Both sides are pro-government telling people what to do. They just want different things being told to different people.
feeder wrote: If it's far to say many on the left would like for a totalitarian government, then it's fair to say many on the right would like a fascist dictatorship, correct?
Of course not. Let's not be silly. There's plenty on both sides to debate without resorting to hyperbole.
To be fair, for many it's not that the government is telling people what to do. Both sides are pro-government telling people what to do. They just want different things being told to different people.
Oh, absolutely. But to say there are 'many' people working for a totalitarian or fascist state in the US is more than a bit absurd. I'm happy US politics is back in the Dakka OT, because our shared hobby gives all posters a common ground you won't find elsewhere we can discuss this topic. I'd like to keep it.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Let me see, as a Canadian, with my wishy-washy Prime Minister Trudeau it makes the contrast with Trump almost scary, no it IS scary.
None of my business I know, I remember being asked prior to his election who would be the next American President?
I had answered "The one they deserve.".
I am SO terribly sorry.
Having the poster-boy for narcissism as the top leader is a very scary place to be and I genuinely give my sympathies.
I must admit, I think Justin is being so nice because he thinks everyone is suffering enough and there is little point in poking the bear: he could lash out at anyone.
So much is getting changed in the background, people were hoping the "checks and balances" could minimize the damage.
So yeah, the guy sure knows his showmanship.
Please feel free to point out anything that would show he is a champion of the underdog.
I am still looking.
Seeing the guy stacking all the various levels of government with cronies is better than a soap-opera for entertainment value.
A little piece of my soul shrivels up and dies with each passing year his is in office.
I really have nothing to say to my children about ethics as being a thing of value with that dude as the most powerful man of state.
I am being a wee bit extreme, could easily be confused with a crying leftist, I think I had always held an ideal of what it meant to be a man ("real man" or "good man") and that guy is far from it.
I think the main thing going for Justin is he tries a little too hard not to be offensive.
Donald, really does not care and gives the smell test on a decision: "how does it benefit me?"
I guess the main #1 thing on my mind, is if the President goes way too far: what are people prepared to do to reign-in this loose cannon?
Will there be ANYTHING that he could be answerable to when he is done stacking the deck?
Would even the two term maximum be any barrier to him? Really?
I figure he focuses on how to manage the votes for his 4th year and during the 8 years in, find a way to overturn the two term max.
I will be looking real hard at the 22nd amendment for a bit.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
I've been reading a bit about the problems the teachers in Oklahoma are going through. Seriously, this is one of the reasons why we need a federal government that can step in and provide the needed assistance when a state so totally fails like this.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
whembly wrote: I think both sides are mischaracterizing the extreme wings here...
Then who is the democrat equivalent of Ben "the pyramids were ancient grain silos" Carson, or Rick "butts are fun" Santorum? If you're going to pull the "both sides are bad" act then you have to provide something to support it.
Hillary Clinton. ...natch. Game Over.
For the bonus rounds, don't forget:
Bernie Sanders
Elizabeth Warrens
Nancy Pelosi
Harry Reid
Al 'Freaking' Franken
They're whackadoos that if a more rational democrat takes their place, they will be dominant in future elections.
Seriously, stop arguing from the standpoint that the Democrats in general are the adult in the rooms. There are jackwagons on both aisle.
Just call them out individually without painting the whole party without agency.
Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, no there has very much been a strong element of "why should *I* have to pay for *them*" thinking coming out of the GOP on healthcare. Hell, Ron Paul openly said people without insurance in need of care should be left to die and was *applauded* for it on national television.
And to put the icing on the cake, applauded by people claiming to be 'pro-life' to boot.
I've been reading a bit about the problems the teachers in Oklahoma are going through. Seriously, this is one of the reasons why we need a federal government that can step in and provide the needed assistance when a state so totally fails like this.
My wife has been out there every day this week. She's a therapist at one of the elementary schools here, so she's supporting the teachers.
The teachers union has been asking for a raise for teachers, support staff, and more importantly adequate funding for the schools themselves. The legislature passed a partial raise for teachers, and no additional funding for schools. And they also don't have the actual funding to pay for the raise, and after raising taxes for the first time in a couple decades to partially fund it, they are already scheduled to repeal some of those taxes before they ever come into effect. So teachers are on strike since Monday. Yesterday the House found out that most teachers only have shuttles available until 3pm, so they scheduled their session to start at 3pm thinking they would just wait for teachers to leave. My wife's school, and many others, simply moved the shuttles around and still ended up filling the capitol.
Yesterday Governor Fallin said that Teachers wanting more funding for schools are "acting like teenagers wanting a better car". So I made my wife a new sign for today:
So far our legislature has claimed that teachers have given death threats to them or their staff (Oklahoma City PD and the Oklahoma Highway Patrol did not receive any notification of any threats). The legislators then claimed "outside" agitators from Chicago and Antifa, which surprised no one.
It did result in "Antifa? No, AntiFallin!" signs though, so there's that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/04 23:13:20
