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No one really addressed what Israel should do when their security walls are about to be breached. The first problem, is that many believe this crowd was peaceful, or even a "run of the mill" riots that you see in Europe. Which is false, as peaceful crowds or even riots don't plant bombs or purposely start fires to burn the jews.
What would you have those Israeli soldiers do when thousands of people march on the border, some armed, some not? What would you them do when you know that terrorists are certainly mixed in that crowd, people who’d gladly shoot or stab Israeli civilians if they were ever to gain access to Israeli towns? I've asked this numberous times in this thread.....
Fine then. How about they start with not shooting to kill into a crowd that hasn't even reached the border yet? If they'd actually been a threat then sure, lethal force could potentially be justified, but this was just Israel looking for an excuse to shoot some Arabs and Hamas calluously counting on the IDF to do exactly what they did.
In the long run, Israel holds all the cards. When the party in a conflict that has all the power has an interest in prolonging it there won't ever be peace.
Thank you.
Do we know for a fact that they indiscriminately shot the crowd? Or is it really a he said, he said situation...
Why do you think it's in Israel's interest to prolong a conflict like this? Seems to me that it's in the Hama leadership's interest to prolong this...
We have footage of people with gunshot wounds in the back and dead journalists in press vests to show the indiscriminate nature.
None of that shows when this happened. If said journalist was with the crowd agressively attacking the boarder, then that's a dangerous situation. If however, he was a truly peaceful effort, then yes Israel deserves to be criticized. In any case, I didn't see anything from the Israeli soldier's perspective, so we're not dealing with something with a clear picture.
Furthermore, no military force has ever been able to effectively and reliably control hostile armed mobs with exclusively nonlethal means.... rubber bullets and tear gas is not a panacea.
Israel prolongs it because if it does it never has to give anything up. Actual progress in the conflict represents a loss for Israel, as it holds all the cards.
That argument doesn't make sense
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 16:49:25
No one really addressed what Israel should do when their security walls are about to be breached. The first problem, is that many believe this crowd was peaceful, or even a "run of the mill" riots that you see in Europe. Which is false, as peaceful crowds or even riots don't plant bombs or purposely start fires to burn the jews.
What would you have those Israeli soldiers do when thousands of people march on the border, some armed, some not? What would you them do when you know that terrorists are certainly mixed in that crowd, people who’d gladly shoot or stab Israeli civilians if they were ever to gain access to Israeli towns? I've asked this numberous times in this thread.....
Fine then. How about they start with not shooting to kill into a crowd that hasn't even reached the border yet? If they'd actually been a threat then sure, lethal force could potentially be justified, but this was just Israel looking for an excuse to shoot some Arabs and Hamas calluously counting on the IDF to do exactly what they did.
In the long run, Israel holds all the cards. When the party in a conflict that has all the power has an interest in prolonging it there won't ever be peace.
Thank you.
Do we know for a fact that they indiscriminately shot the crowd? Or is it really a he said, he said situation...
Why do you think it's in Israel's interest to prolong a conflict like this? Seems to me that it's in the Hama leadership's interest to prolong this...
We have footage of people with gunshot wounds in the back and dead journalists in press vests to show the indiscriminate nature.
None of that shows when this happened. If said journalist was with the crowd agressively attacking the boarder, then that's a dangerous situation. If however, he was a truly peaceful effort, then yes Israel deserves to be criticized. In any case, I didn't see anything from the Israeli soldier's perspective, so we're not dealing with something with a clear picture.
Furthermore, no military force has ever been able to effectively and reliably control hostile armed mobs with exclusively nonlethal means.... rubber bullets and tear gas is not a panacea.
Really, you can google the bloody images yourself, I have provided you with sources and you start inventing stories of journalists charging the border? And how does that explain the gunshot wound to people's backs that Amnesty reports? Are people running backwards towards the border?
And you want the Israeli perspective, look at the images of them hunkered down in firing positions pretty far away. If you had no context you would think the Israelis are involved in an actual war instead of a police action.
Nobody is saying they can't use live rounds if the situation calls for it. The issue most of us here have is that they use live rounds regardless.
Israel prolongs it because if it does it never has to give anything up. Actual progress in the conflict represents a loss for Israel, as it holds all the cards.
That argument doesn't make sense
It doesn't make sense because you don't understand the wider effect for Israwli politics of extending this war like situation. I will give a brief overview.
1. US financial support for the Israeli army because of this situation, which they might lose with a peace accord.
2. All that illegally occupied land can remain Israeli as long as the conflict continues with no discussion required as to giving it back. Furthermore it enables the establisment of further settlements.
3. Political gain. Netanyahu is depending on all this nationalism to gain votes. Being tough and fighting Palestine is giving him a lot of right wing support. If Netanyahu tries to end the current situation he might lose power and when he does there are a lot of nasty allegations about his behaviour that might come and haunt him. Basically the current majority in Israeli politics rely on this hard stance for their electorate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 17:10:48
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP)
Israel prolongs it because if it does it never has to give anything up. Actual progress in the conflict represents a loss for Israel, as it holds all the cards.
That argument doesn't make sense
It does though. Basically Israel holds all the advantages. They have overwhelming military, economic, and political power. Their own casualties are practically nil, the fighting is overwhelmingly one sided in its results, and the aftermath safely hidden from daily view behind concrete walls. The longer the current situation holds, the longer the Israeli claims in the West Bank have to become entrenched. Also, not unimportantly, keeping a defanged but scary looking enemy at the gates has a lot of domestic political advantage for the current government. Likewise, their rivals in the region are seeing their priorities shift, and interest in the Palestinian question and support of it wane as concerns in other areas of concern arise.
Essentially the Israelis can sit behind their walls as their strong hand gets stronger, with nothing to really stop them, and thats exactly what theyve been doing, while the Palestinians become increasingly left behind and desperate.
Pretty much the same basic theory Russias uses with frozen conflicts in places like Georgia and Ukraine. Paralyze smaller neighbors, keep the conflict frozen so aid and support to the smaller neighbor becomes difficult, and maintain the dominating status quo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 17:43:34
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
This is a topic that will be familiar to most Americans. I hope.
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
I am always amazed and astounded by just how much wisdom and generally great men happened to come together. They were still people will flaws, even significant ones, but it's a reminder that while there are really terrible people in the world there is also the opposite. Some people really do use power to benefit the broader society as best they can.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 17:57:21
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
I wish we were as wary of political parties today as we were back then. If we could ditch 'em, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Our system of government was also clearly not set up to deal with them, it was set up to divide government institutions from each other to divide power, but takes little or no accounting of partisan capture of branches to be held in partisan (as opposed to institutional) opposition, nor capture of multiple branches by a single party to have them act in what the framers would have seen as collusional institutional unison.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
zerosignal wrote: I watched an Israeli drone drop tear gas cannisters into (a) a group of journalists with TV cameras and (b) a tent sheltering women and children.
Using snipers to shoot teenagers and old men armed with rocks and molotovs seems a little... heavy-handed.
And then that is without even considering *why* the Palestinians are so desperate. They live in the biggest open-air prison in the world. Electricity, food, healthcare, sanitation are scarce.
How anyone can see this as justified is beyond insane to me.
Edit: over 2000 people injured and ~60 killed. It's an absolute disgrace, and the fact that Trumpet is all over it just makes me want to puke.
Hey you know what's cool? There is another thread for that issue. This is the US politics thread. You might go there with those points.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
I wish we were as wary of political parties today as we were back then. If we could ditch 'em, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Our system of government was also clearly not set up to deal with them, it was set up to divide government institutions from each other to divide power, but takes little or no accounting of partisan capture of branches to be held in partisan (as opposed to institutional) opposition, nor capture of multiple branches by a single party to have them act in what the framers would have seen as collusional institutional unison.
Parties/factions were as, if not more, hotly contested back then too... people would just up and walk out to prevent quorum constantly.
...they even had duels back then.
Maybe that's the answer... duels allowed for politicians only! Put it on Pay-Per-View with the revenue used to reduce the outstanding debts!
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
I am always amazed and astounded by just how much wisdom and generally great men happened to come together. They were still people will flaws, even significant ones, but it's a reminder that while there are really terrible people in the world there is also the opposite. Some people really do use power to benefit the broader society as best they can.
And that's the problem IMO - nobody in the USA or Western Democracies, seems to be pulling together for the common ground.
That's not to say that there are not honest men and women in the USA, be they civil servants in Washington or Wyoming, trying their best to make the system work fairly.
We all read history, and we all know that Empires rise and fall, and maybe I'm exaggerating here, but there is something going wrong in the West.
And it's called corruption. It's always been with us, and it always will be with us, but if it's kept at a certain low level, it largely goes unnoticed.
But I would argue, since at least the 1970s, corruption is slowly growing in America to the detriment of civil society and the body politic.
It erodes trust in institutions and allows disillusionment to fester in the system. A slow poison that kills Empires...
It's not an over-night thing, and it didn't start with Donald Trump, but for want of a better word, it's starting to become 'normalised' under Trump.
Trump is a symptom of it, but it's what comes after Trump that should worry Americans...
If Trump can get away with it, then a future POTUS might think they too could double down on the Trump style...
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
I wish we were as wary of political parties today as we were back then. If we could ditch 'em, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Our system of government was also clearly not set up to deal with them, it was set up to divide government institutions from each other to divide power, but takes little or no accounting of partisan capture of branches to be held in partisan (as opposed to institutional) opposition, nor capture of multiple branches by a single party to have them act in what the framers would have seen as collusional institutional unison.
I remember a few years ago how surprised I was to learn that at one time, Senators weren't directly elected, but instead were chosen by their state until the 17th Amendment came along. Naturally, such a system was probably abused pre-17th, but there were a lot of merits to it as well, not least Senators not getting absorbed by political parties.
I would argue that a lot more indepedent, non GOP or Democrat Senators, is eaxctly what is needed in 2018. I think you'd get a better type of Senator.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 18:23:00
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
And that's the problem IMO - nobody in the USA or Western Democracies, seems to be pulling together for the common ground.
That's not to say that there are not honest men and women in the USA, be they civil servants in Washington or Wyoming, trying their best to make the system work fairly.
We all read history, and we all know that Empires rise and fall, and maybe I'm exaggerating here, but there is something going wrong in the West.
And it's called corruption. It's always been with us, and it always will be with us, but if it's kept at a certain low level, it largely goes unnoticed.
But I would argue, since at least the 1970s, corruption is slowly growing in America to the detriment of civil society and the body politic.
It erodes trust in institutions and allows disillusionment to fester in the system. A slow poison that kills Empires...
It's not an over-night thing, and it didn't start with Donald Trump, but for want of a better word, it's starting to become 'normalised' under Trump.
Trump is a symptom of it, but it's what comes after Trump that should worry Americans...
If Trump can get away with it, then a future POTUS might think they too could double down on the Trump style...
Pretty much spot on. I actually am one of those civil servants and it's disheartening how vast a gulf there is between the strict ethics requirements us bureaucrats work under vs. what the elected and appointed officials are getting away with.
As you said it's the nature of empires - we're seeing that vacillation between attempts at mild but necessary reforms and pants on head stupidity that we saw with the Roman emperors during their decline.
In the modern era we've seen other Western empires settled down into prosperous post-imperial nations, but we've also seen the other path: like the Soviet Union falling apart into a morass of corruption, poverty, and violent bigotry.
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
Yeah, it's long term trends I'm looking at now, the Long Duree as it were.
Compared to the USA, China is even more corrupt. But China has a goal, mission, purpose, in a way that the USA used to have, but no longer has.
And that drive and focus, crusading zeal as it were, for world supremacy, will overcome the obstacles that their corruption puts in their path.
Make no mistake, the USA is still a strong country, powerful and influential, but the collapse of the Berlin wall robbed them of something.
What does a warrior do when there are no more 'wars' to fight?
Britain has been floundering around for decades since it lost its Empire, and we still have no idea what we want or what the feth we're doing.
Something similar will probably happen to the USA one day...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Does everyone 'member the "useful idiot" theory? It is bearing fruit.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
The great thing about History, is that it all makes sense and creates a straight line of cause and effect. Too bad the present is not so clean cut. The future is even worse! :(
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In 2010 I told my friends that by 2020 GW would either fail or undergo major reforms because the track it was on was simply unsustainable. In 2016 the age of Roundtree began.
I say this because I think it's analogous to the country and specifically the GOP, and they are close to the point where they may fail entirely. If the next recession hits (and it will hit hard) while still under Trump it could happen. The GOP have been digging their own grave by actively supporting the trend of wealthy elites reaping the majority of benefits from the recovery. There is already a simmering resentment against the rich from both sides ("drain the swamp") that doesn't get a lot of action because people have jobs and income. Once that goes away... They have run out of scapegoats. Even if the GOP base is onboard with whatever they tell them that doesn't amount to much when people are desperate--they are going to feel screwed over and lied to, something that is at least somewhat justified.
Then there's global warming. The GOP is very much seen as the party of denying it, something that will look more and more scummy as the century rolls on.
All in all I think a lot of responsible parties (including the partisan bullcrap of both political ones) are going to get bitten in the ass very hard, opening the door to finally rebuild the situation. Yes it will suck, and it will suck badly. But GW sucked the most in the year before they started getting better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 19:47:33
Just so we're clear: are you trying to advocate that every time a law enforcement officer fails to act in the way you think they should, they shouldn't be allowed to collect their pension?
Imma call bs on this one... but across my twittah feed, numerous news accounts:
Rudy Giuliani on Wednesday that special counsel Robert Mueller told Trump's legal team two weeks ago he will follow Justice Department guidance saying a sitting president cannot be indicted.
I mean, I think he's right... but Rudy just putting both feet in his mouth here...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/16 22:00:58
whembly wrote: Imma call bs on this one... but across my twittah feed, numerous news accounts:
Rudy Giuliani on Wednesday that special counsel Robert Mueller told Trump's legal team two weeks ago he will follow Justice Department guidance saying a sitting president cannot be indicted.
I mean, I think he's right... but Rudy just putting both feet in his mouth here...
Has anyone ever suggested otherwise?
All the talk I've heard has been how a compromised Trump is insulated from the consequences of his actions by a sycophantic and complicit House.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Just so we're clear: are you trying to advocate that every time a law enforcement officer fails to act in the way you think they should, they shouldn't be allowed to collect their pension?
If by "...in the way you think they should...", you mean "doesn't perform his/her job in a manner that grossly endangers public safety", as was the case in this matter? Yep. you betcha. Fire them for cause and all the ramifications that should accompany it. The Dixon cop had it right.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/05/16 23:28:05
Kanluwen wrote: Just so we're clear: are you trying to advocate that every time a law enforcement officer fails to act in the way you think they should, they shouldn't be allowed to collect their pension?
If by "...in the way you think they should...", you mean "doesn't perform his/her job in a manner that grossly endangers public safety", as was the case in this matter? Yep. you betcha. Fire them for cause and all the ramifications that should accompany it. The Dixon cop had it right.
But it's already been established that cops don't need to protect you. Why should this particular one be punished for not doing something he isn't required to do?
Kanluwen wrote: Just so we're clear: are you trying to advocate that every time a law enforcement officer fails to act in the way you think they should, they shouldn't be allowed to collect their pension?
If by "...in the way you think they should...", you mean "doesn't perform his/her job in a manner that grossly endangers public safety", as was the case in this matter? Yep. you betcha. Fire them for cause and all the ramifications that should accompany it. The Dixon cop had it right.
But it's already been established that cops don't need to protect you. Why should this particular one be punished for not doing something he isn't required to do?
Because he failed to follow established department procedure for responding to a mass shooting crime in progress.
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
I am always amazed and astounded by just how much wisdom and generally great men happened to come together. They were still people will flaws, even significant ones, but it's a reminder that while there are really terrible people in the world there is also the opposite. Some people really do use power to benefit the broader society as best they can.
And that's the problem IMO - nobody in the USA or Western Democracies, seems to be pulling together for the common ground.
That's not to say that there are not honest men and women in the USA, be they civil servants in Washington or Wyoming, trying their best to make the system work fairly.
We all read history, and we all know that Empires rise and fall, and maybe I'm exaggerating here, but there is something going wrong in the West.
And it's called corruption. It's always been with us, and it always will be with us, but if it's kept at a certain low level, it largely goes unnoticed.
But I would argue, since at least the 1970s, corruption is slowly growing in America to the detriment of civil society and the body politic.
It erodes trust in institutions and allows disillusionment to fester in the system. A slow poison that kills Empires...
It's not an over-night thing, and it didn't start with Donald Trump, but for want of a better word, it's starting to become 'normalised' under Trump.
Trump is a symptom of it, but it's what comes after Trump that should worry Americans...
If Trump can get away with it, then a future POTUS might think they too could double down on the Trump style...
But I've been re-visiting the history books for some wisdom from the Founding Fathers.
Naturally, they weren't perfect, but it's amazing how prescient they were.
George Washington: Trade with all nations, alliance with none. Avoid foreign entanglements. Political parties are evil.
Thomas Jefferson. Banks are more dangerous than standing armies. Keep money out of politics.
John Adams. The biggest threat to the USA is Americans, or those who would put party interest before country.
James Madison: If men were angels, no government would be necessary.
But as Madison knew too well, men are not angels, hence the bill of rights. How the USA could do with their wisdom and leadership right now.
That being said, if they were to return today, they'd probably get locked up for un-American activities or something
I wish we were as wary of political parties today as we were back then. If we could ditch 'em, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Our system of government was also clearly not set up to deal with them, it was set up to divide government institutions from each other to divide power, but takes little or no accounting of partisan capture of branches to be held in partisan (as opposed to institutional) opposition, nor capture of multiple branches by a single party to have them act in what the framers would have seen as collusional institutional unison.
I remember a few years ago how surprised I was to learn that at one time, Senators weren't directly elected, but instead were chosen by their state until the 17th Amendment came along. Naturally, such a system was probably abused pre-17th, but there were a lot of merits to it as well, not least Senators not getting absorbed by political parties.
I would argue that a lot more indepedent, non GOP or Democrat Senators, is eaxctly what is needed in 2018. I think you'd get a better type of Senator.
I've been banging on repeal of the 17th for quite some time.
However, I don't think it'll encourage "better" Senators... just different. Whereas the Senator is more beholden to the party that control their state's legislature. Politically... same gak, different day. The difference is that the state's legislature gets a little bit more "say" Federally. Think of the Senators as the state's "Ambassadors" to Washington DC.
Funnily enough, my latest P60 (end of year tax statement) was made available to me today.
In the last tax year, I was paid £35,211.82. And on that, I paid a grand total income tax and NI of £8,140.27 combined.
My medical care doesn't cost me anything more after that, unless I need a prescription - and even then that's hardly bank breaking. And if you've got a chronic condition, such as Mumsie's epilepsy (so severe, if she doesn't take her pills, she will fit) those costs are waived as well.
So around 23% on an income of $47,500 to cover both health care AND taxes.
In America you'd expect to pay around $7,500 in Federal taxes (income, medicare, and SSDI) on $47,500 - 15.7% - and another $6,000 in health care premiums - 12.6% - and then deductibles, copays, and prescription costs.
Yep, the American way is definitely the cheaper way to go....
Funnily enough, my latest P60 (end of year tax statement) was made available to me today.
In the last tax year, I was paid £35,211.82. And on that, I paid a grand total income tax and NI of £8,140.27 combined.
My medical care doesn't cost me anything more after that, unless I need a prescription - and even then that's hardly bank breaking. And if you've got a chronic condition, such as Mumsie's epilepsy (so severe, if she doesn't take her pills, she will fit) those costs are waived as well.
Hmmm... I'm a regular working class Joe.
£8,140.27 works out to be $10,958.60
My own contribution to my insurance plan is $6,958.64 with my employer picking up the rest. (family of 4 plan)
My plan pays for many things where I'd only have to pay the co-pay ($25 for PCP, $50 for specialty visit and $100 for ED/major surgery event).
Here's my anecdote story... my son broke his leg playing keeper in soccer last summer. I only had to pay $50 for the initial visit... which consists of numerous x-ray, blood test, treatment and cast. Had the cast for 10 weeks (replaced every 2 weeks). Then, in the winter playing basketball, while rebounding with his newly repaired leg swung hard shin-to-shin to another player and broke his leg IN THE SAME SPOT!
...another visit to the same orpthopedic. Since it was the same break, no additional co-pay required. He had further x-rays and was put in a cast again for 8 weeks (replaced every 2 weeks).
Total out-of-pocket? The $50 from the initial visit.
However, we didn't even talking about my Medicaid/Medicare taxes (which I don't qualify for, unless I'm poor w/o insurance or turn 65).
That's some really GOOD insurance! I'd be paying a couple grand for all that, mostly because of the $1500 deductible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 01:22:01
whembly wrote: Look everyone, seb taking the time honored technique to put words on other people's mouth.
I asked you twice to confirm, retract, or clarify, and you pointedly avoided doing any of those.
Seb: when much of the world provides cover or explicit support for Hamas...
And now the walk back begins. "The rest of the world" becomes "much of the rest of the world". And the claim that other countries actively wanting Israel to destroy itself becomes a claim they support Hamas and Hamas wants to destroy Israel, therefore.
This version is still very silly of course, but what's important isn't the silliness of either the original claim or the revision, but the process where you felt free to claim something that ridiculous, and then felt no responsibility for it afterwards. You don't feel accountable for the accuracy of what you claim.
Could be some "good cop, bad cop" routine between Trump/Ross vs Chinese negotiators.
No, it's Trump scrambling to normalise the situation with China, looking to give up anything that won't have direct electoral consequences, which will mean giving up ground on a lot of trade issues. The black comedy here is that for all Trump's talk about the US being so bad at trade deals, he's now initiated what looks likely to be the first unfavourable trade negotiation for the US in the last hundred years.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
So, the Senate actually passed the repeal of the net neutrality repeal. Anyone want to take bets on how far it will get in the House and if Trump will even sign it?
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
whembly wrote: We're not manning our border fence with military equipment... are we?
What? Of course you are. It makes perfect sense for the US to have this kind of hardware, because they engage with cartels so it's more than necessary, but asking if the US has military hardware on the border is a really weird question.
In addition to armed border guards toting some pretty serious firepower, there is also a Joint Task Force that organises the use of military assets in support of border control. Obviously it doesn't gift border control howitzers and Abrams, but drones and specially equipped helicopters are regularly deployed by the army to support border patrol.
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Disciple of Fate wrote: Israel prolongs it because if it does it never has to give anything up. Actual progress in the conflict represents a loss for Israel, as it holds all the cards.
My sister is dating this guy who's is in the last stages of getting divorced. I say last stages, but that stage has lasted for years. It is dragging out because the preliminary deal gives his ex-wife a very generous monthly allowance, worth far more than value of the assets she will get in any version of the final deal. As a result it has been in her best interests to drag this deal out for as long as possible, delaying and refiling, to keep that allowance as long as possible.
That's the same as what Israel is doing. Every year the deal drags out Israel is able to take and settle more land.
What's most interesting about the whole dynamic is that the new settlements aren't actually popular in Israel, but the relatively small number of hardliners who support them very strongly hold a very disproportionate level of power inside Israel's parliament.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 02:41:05
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Vaktathi wrote: I wish we were as wary of political parties today as we were back then. If we could ditch 'em, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Our system of government was also clearly not set up to deal with them, it was set up to divide government institutions from each other to divide power, but takes little or no accounting of partisan capture of branches to be held in partisan (as opposed to institutional) opposition, nor capture of multiple branches by a single party to have them act in what the framers would have seen as collusional institutional unison.
Its the great American political conundrum. You have an electoral system geared to producing two major political parties, and a legislative process that cannot handle partisan political parties.
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I remember a few years ago how surprised I was to learn that at one time, Senators weren't directly elected, but instead were chosen by their state until the 17th Amendment came along. Naturally, such a system was probably abused pre-17th, but there were a lot of merits to it as well, not least Senators not getting absorbed by political parties.
I would argue that a lot more indepedent, non GOP or Democrat Senators, is eaxctly what is needed in 2018. I think you'd get a better type of Senator.
I agree moving to independent senators would be wonderful, but the US isn't going to get there by returning to state appointed senators. You think the Democrat controlled legislature in Maryland is going to appoint someone who isn't a steadfast Democrat? You think the Republican Georgia legislature is going to appoint anyone other than a reliable Republican?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 02:56:22
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
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