Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 d-usa wrote:
“Bro”, “homie”, “buddy”, I’m done with that crap.

Enjoy your Twitter culture and blog education. I tried to honestly engage despite the childish replies and constant repetition of the same gak over and over again after it gets explained over and over again.

Good riddance.

Right there with you. Once upon a time he used to make an effort, but not anymore. We'll see how long Sebster can continue to hold out.

 whembly wrote:

They were voted into power homie

Mussolini wasn't voted into power and Hitler would barely qualify as voted in, they both got into real power through a ridiculous amount of scheming and help from the 'establishment'.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 whembly wrote:

They were voted into power homie

Mussolini wasn't voted into power and

I should've clarified that as it presumed the people voted them both... but that's not how the system worked anyways.

As for mussolini wasn't he voted in by his political party? (too lazy to check)

Hitler would barely qualify as voted in, they both got into real power through a ridiculous amount of scheming and help from the 'establishment'.

Hitler was definitely voted in as chancellor by his party. ( think he actually lost the presidency years before that)

 whembly wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
Holy crap, we're back to 'the Nazis banned guns'? Already? I thought we'd just talked about this.

No. Just arguing that the rise of facism is aided in part by gun regulations... I mean, if you don't think there's a link, why did Germany pass the 1938 Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons?

Hrm, while I'm normally one to advocate against a state monopoly on the means of force, looking at the historical aspects of this particular issue is something i did in recent years. There was a broad package of weapons laws in 1938, this was after their rise and well into establishment, almost halfway through the Nazi's tenure in government. At the time, Jews were less than one percent of the population that few cared to stick their necks out for, and for everyone else that wasnt Jewish, the '38 laws lowered the purchase age limit on firearms from 20 to 18, completely deregulated long guns, and extended permits for handguns from one to three years.

 whembly wrote:

...and furthermore, what's this US "on the road" to facism bs?

Attacking the press, ultra-nationalism, scapegoating, demanding total obedience, cult of personality, it's pretty textbook stuff.

None of that means that a fascist dictatorship is around the corner. I don't think that is at all likely.

But if it does happen, future historians will point to this as the first signs.

 whembly wrote:

The USA has over 300 million private guns (that we know of). You don't think so Mussolini-wanna be would factor in that calculus whether or not he'd be successful?

Yes of course, they would ensure the majority of the private gun owners make up their base.

 whembly wrote:

Hitler was definitely voted in as chancellor by his party. ( think he actually lost the presidency years before that)

Hindenburg made Hitler chancellor in '33 by suggestion by Franz von Papen and Alfred Hugenberg. He most definitely wasn't voted in as chancellor of his party.

I think the advice to "read a book" might not be that bad.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
Holy crap, we're back to 'the Nazis banned guns'? Already? I thought we'd just talked about this.

No. Just arguing that the rise of facism is aided in part by gun regulations... I mean, if you don't think there's a link, why did Germany pass the 1938 Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons?

Hrm, while I'm normally one to advocate against a state monopoly on the means of force, looking at the historical aspects of this particular issue is something i did in recent years. There was a broad package of weapons laws in 1938, this was after their rise and well into establishment, almost halfway through the Nazi's tenure in government. At the time, Jews were less than one percent of the population that few cared to stick their necks out for, and for everyone else that wasnt Jewish, the '38 laws lowered the purchase age limit on firearms from 20 to 18, completely deregulated long guns, and extended permits for handguns from one to three years.

I guess the current argument is the idea that private guns would or would not prevent a fascist government from arising in the US.

I'm not trying to rehash the old "did the Nazi have gun control or liberal gun ownership" debate.

How 'bout this. What is it that you think the US is sliding to a more fascist governance?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Hitler was definitely voted in as chancellor by his party. ( think he actually lost the presidency years before that)

Hindenburg made Hitler chancellor in '33 by suggestion by Franz von Papen and Alfred Hugenberg. He most definitely wasn't voted in as chancellor of his party.

I think the advice to "read a book" might not be that bad.

I stand corrected.

I had it in my head that he lost the presidency and the voted in chancellor by the political elite.

 whembly wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 whembly wrote:

They were voted into power homie

Mussolini wasn't voted into power and

I should've clarified that as it presumed the people voted them both... but that's not how the system worked anyways.

As for mussolini wasn't he voted in by his political party? (too lazy to check)

No, he did his famous March on Rome, the establishment panicked and just handed over control of the country. Everyone just rolled over, even though the Italian army at the time easily outnumbered Mussolini's supporters.

 whembly wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Hitler would barely qualify as voted in, they both got into real power through a ridiculous amount of scheming and help from the 'establishment'.

Hitler was definitely voted in as chancellor by his party. ( think he actually lost the presidency years before that)

Definitely not. Hitler didn't have the support to become chancellor until the previous chancellor, the president and Hitler made a backroom deal in 1933 because the German elite were terrified of the socialists. Hitler didn't lose the presidency, he tried to become president in 1932 but lost. Then he usurped it once Hindenburg croaked.

What makes me think that is how happy all the neonazis are with Trump, and how he called them "very fine people". Among a whole bunch of other stuff. Worship of the military is another one. Demoniizing those who disagree. Overly aggressive and militarised police. Rise of armed militias. Overweening state surveillance. Lying about objectively true things and then pretending objective reality doesn't exist. I could go on. The US has taken some dangerous steps towards fascism. Like others, I do not believe yet that it will fall all the way, but wake up and smell the bs.

 whembly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
Holy crap, we're back to 'the Nazis banned guns'? Already? I thought we'd just talked about this.

No. Just arguing that the rise of facism is aided in part by gun regulations... I mean, if you don't think there's a link, why did Germany pass the 1938 Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons?

Hrm, while I'm normally one to advocate against a state monopoly on the means of force, looking at the historical aspects of this particular issue is something i did in recent years. There was a broad package of weapons laws in 1938, this was after their rise and well into establishment, almost halfway through the Nazi's tenure in government. At the time, Jews were less than one percent of the population that few cared to stick their necks out for, and for everyone else that wasnt Jewish, the '38 laws lowered the purchase age limit on firearms from 20 to 18, completely deregulated long guns, and extended permits for handguns from one to three years.

I guess the current argument is the idea that private guns would or would not prevent a fascist government from arising in the US.

I'm not trying to rehash the old "did the Nazi have gun control or liberal gun ownership" debate.

How 'bout this. What is it that you think the US is sliding to a more fascist governance?

The risk is assuming that guns make a fascist government more unlikely, when the political stances of (some )gun owners might make them more likely to support the right/fascist adjacent parties due to social conservatism. Weimar Germany tried to restrict acces to guns, because a lot of the people with guns were members of the Freikorps, which wasn't exactly overly friendly to the Weimar state. The political corner Hitler was in was the same one as the Freikorps was in. This is why Hitler wasn't really against guns, his side of politics was much more likely to be the ones with the guns. Historically speaking the military tends to also pull towards a more traditional side of society, just look at the Spanish Civil War.

 Da Boss wrote:
Worship of the military is another one. Demoniizing those who disagree. Overly aggressive and militarised police. Rise of armed militias. Overweening state surveillance.

All of these things have been prevalent and prominent in US culture for as long as I can remember. It was like that under Reagan, Bush41, Clinton, Bush43, Obama and now Trump. Sure Trump has added an extra layer of incompetence and compulsive reality denying lying to the mix but for the most part all of the our Fascist tendencies are commonplace social norms.

 feeder wrote:

 whembly wrote:

...and furthermore, what's this US "on the road" to facism bs?

Attacking the press, ultra-nationalism, scapegoating, demanding total obedience, cult of personality, it's pretty textbook stuff.

None of that means that a fascist dictatorship is around the corner. I don't think that is at all likely.

But if it does happen, future historians will point to this as the first signs.

Now we're getting into the crux of the current debate I think...

I almost think the attributes you attributed is based on your dislike of who's controlling Congress and the WH.

I mean, I can say the same thing (albeit minus the ultra-nationalism) during the last administration.

Unfortunately, I think these things wax and wane generationally... we freaking relocated and put American-Japanese in camps ~75 years ago (still living memory!).

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

The risk is assuming that guns make a fascist government more unlikely, when the political stances of (some )gun owners might make them more likely to support the right/fascist adjacent parties due to social conservatism. Weimar Germany tried to restrict acces to guns, because a lot of the people with guns were members of the Freikorps, which wasn't exactly overly friendly to the Weimar state. The political corner Hitler was in was the same one as the Freikorps was in. This is why Hitler wasn't really against guns, his side of politics was much more likely to be the ones with the guns. Historically speaking the military tends to also pull towards a more traditional side of society, just look at the Spanish Civil War.

This. Prominent members of the Nazi party who were also members of units in the Freikorps:

Ernst Rohm (founder of the SA)
Heinrich Himmler (head of SS)
Rudolf Hoss (kommandant of Auschwitz)

 Riquende wrote:

 whembly wrote:

The USA has over 300 million private guns (that we know of). You don't think so Mussolini-wanna be would factor in that calculus whether or not he'd be successful?

Yes of course, they would ensure the majority of the private gun owners make up their base.

Please would people keep their US Guns comments in the US Guns thread? You know the one...

 whembly wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 whembly wrote:

...and furthermore, what's this US "on the road" to facism bs?

Attacking the press, ultra-nationalism, scapegoating, demanding total obedience, cult of personality, it's pretty textbook stuff.

None of that means that a fascist dictatorship is around the corner. I don't think that is at all likely.

But if it does happen, future historians will point to this as the first signs.

Now we're getting into the crux of the current debate I think...

I almost think the attributes you attributed is based on your dislike of who's controlling Congress and the WH.

I mean, I can say the same thing (albeit minus the ultra-nationalism) during the last administration.

Unfortunately, I think these things wax and wane generationally... we freaking relocated and put American-Japanese in camps ~75 years ago (still living memory!).

You really can't without generalising the terms so much they become meaningless.

Obama did not build a cult of personality, neither did he build scapegoats out of minority members of society, he was not an ultra-nationalist and nor did he court ultra-nationalists such as the alt-right, he also never claimed that he would order the military to commit war crimes and that they would follow his orders.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

You really can't without generalising the terms so much they become meaningless.

Obama did not build a cult of personality, neither did he build scapegoats out of minority members of society, he was not an ultra-nationalist and nor did he court ultra-nationalists such as the alt-right, he also never claimed that he would order the military to commit war crimes and that they would follow his orders.

Also the fake news thing is pretty Third Reichy

I honestly think if you can't see the parallels between the current administration and other fascist groups, it is at best a tribal blind spot and quite wilful.

Luckily, I do believe that the battered institutions of the US are very strong and the whole thing was designed in many ways to prevent this.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

You really can't without generalising the terms so much they become meaningless.

Obama did not build a cult of personality, neither did he build scapegoats out of minority members of society, he was not an ultra-nationalist and nor did he court ultra-nationalists such as the alt-right, he also never claimed that he would order the military to commit war crimes and that they would follow his orders.

Also the fake news thing is pretty Third Reichy

What, Lügenpresse? Nah, that's Austrian, see. Nothing fascist ever came out of Austria!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 whembly wrote:

...and furthermore, what's this US "on the road" to facism bs?

Attacking the press, ultra-nationalism, scapegoating, demanding total obedience, cult of personality, it's pretty textbook stuff.

None of that means that a fascist dictatorship is around the corner. I don't think that is at all likely.

But if it does happen, future historians will point to this as the first signs.

Now we're getting into the crux of the current debate I think...

I almost think the attributes you attributed is based on your dislike of who's controlling Congress and the WH.

I mean, I can say the same thing (albeit minus the ultra-nationalism) during the last administration.

Unfortunately, I think these things wax and wane generationally... we freaking relocated and put American-Japanese in camps ~75 years ago (still living memory!).

You really can't without generalising the terms so much they become meaningless.

Obama did not build a cult of personality, neither did he build scapegoats out of minority members of society, he was not an ultra-nationalist and nor did he court ultra-nationalists such as the alt-right, he also never claimed that he would order the military to commit war crimes and that they would follow his orders.

I said minus the nationalism bit...
And yeah, there's a cult where precious Obama need to be protected at all cost.

Were you asleep during the last administration?
To paraphrase, Obama would calm the rising sea and lower the temperature...

Who won the Nobel Peace Prize for doing... what?

Who has had an extremely favorable mainstream media covering him...

Do I need to go on?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What, Lügenpresse? Nah, that's Austrian, see. Nothing fascist ever came out of Austria!

the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world Austria was a victim



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

I said minus the nationalism bit...
And yeah, there's a cult where precious Obama need to be protected at all cost.

Were you asleep during the last administration?
To paraphrase, Obama would calm the rising sea and lower the temperature...

Who won the Nobel Peace Prize for doing... what?

Who has had an extremely favorable mainstream media covering him...

Do I need to go on?

You kinda have to go on, as the 'mainstream media' and the Nobel committee are independent and from an entirely different country respectively. Their is a vast difference between the media interaction of Obama and that of Trump.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Riquende wrote:

 whembly wrote:

The USA has over 300 million private guns (that we know of). You don't think so Mussolini-wanna be would factor in that calculus whether or not he'd be successful?

Yes of course, they would ensure the majority of the private gun owners make up their base.

Please would people keep their US Guns comments in the US Guns thread? You know the one...

Can moderators make up their mind?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756190.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756075.page#9959257

What's your complaint?

 feeder wrote:

 whembly wrote:

...and furthermore, what's this US "on the road" to facism bs?

Attacking the press, ultra-nationalism, scapegoating, demanding total obedience, cult of personality, it's pretty textbook stuff.

None of that means that a fascist dictatorship is around the corner. I don't think that is at all likely.

But if it does happen, future historians will point to this as the first signs.

It cannot be overstated how damaging President Trump and the Republican Party is to the entire fabric of the United States.

Forget tax breaks. Forget the economy and immigration. Forget the jobs and the environment.

President Trump and the Republican Party is willing to tear down the very foundations of the nation.

Claims of rampant voter fraud leading to a distrust in the democratic system of the elections.
Labelling the free press as "Fake News" the second they criticise the people in power.
Cries of "Deep State" and "Shadow Government" leading to a lack of trust in the idea of government elected by the People.
Allegations of bias along party lines in the judicial system - undermining the idea of justice.
Attacking the departments tasked with investigating criminal activities.
Promoting the idea that evidence for a given statement is secondary to who makes the statement, when it comes to determining the truth of said statement.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What's your complaint?

That one MOD shut down the gun thread because it’s politics, and another one is now arguing that guns should stay out the politics thread.

I thought it was fairly self explanatory based on your post and Manchu’s posts.

Manchu wrote:Gun politics in the US is US politics. If you don't want to talk about gun politics in the US Politics thread, that's fine. But we are not having multiple US Politics threads much less a series of "monthly" threads of splinter topics.

 Manchu wrote:

The corollary is that the US Politics thread covers everything that could reasonably be considered US politics. Gun politics is not a corner case. To the contrary, no topic could possibly fall more squarely within the ambit of US politics generally..

Steelmage99 wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 whembly wrote:

...and furthermore, what's this US "on the road" to facism bs?

Attacking the press, ultra-nationalism, scapegoating, demanding total obedience, cult of personality, it's pretty textbook stuff.

None of that means that a fascist dictatorship is around the corner. I don't think that is at all likely.

But if it does happen, future historians will point to this as the first signs.

It cannot be overstated how damaging President Trump and the Republican Party is to the entire fabric of the United States.

Forget tax breaks. Forget the economy and immigration. Forget the jobs and the environment.

President Trump and the Republican Party is willing to tear down the very foundations of the nation.

Claims of rampant voter fraud leading to a distrust in the democratic system of the elections.
Labelling the free press as "Fake News" the second they criticise the people in power.
Cries of "Deep State" and "Shadow Government" leading to a lack of trust in the idea of government elected by the People.
Allegations of bias along party lines in the judicial system - undermining the idea of justice.
Attacking the departments tasked with investigating criminal activities.
Promoting the idea that evidence for a given statement is secondary to who makes the statement, when it comes to determining the truth of said statement.

Basically all of this.


On a related note, Roseanne is being cancelled after the actress channeled her inner Trump a bit too hard.

EDIT: more and more I am coming to believe that major Twitter usage is a sign of a mental disorder. Nothing positive seems to flow from the platform, no matter what ones politics and tendencies are, and increasingly it appears its sole function is to either sling gak or to commit professional/social suicide.

 whembly wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 whembly wrote:

...and furthermore, what's this US "on the road" to facism bs?

Attacking the press, ultra-nationalism, scapegoating, demanding total obedience, cult of personality, it's pretty textbook stuff.

None of that means that a fascist dictatorship is around the corner. I don't think that is at all likely.

But if it does happen, future historians will point to this as the first signs.

Now we're getting into the crux of the current debate I think...

I almost think the attributes you attributed is based on your dislike of who's controlling Congress and the WH.

I mean, I can say the same thing (albeit minus the ultra-nationalism) during the last administration.

'Bama definitely benefitted from a cult of personality. His admin didn't attack the press or scapegoat or demand total obedience though.

Unfortunately, I think these things wax and wane generationally... we freaking relocated and put American-Japanese in camps ~75 years ago (still living memory!).

Yeah, my country engaged in that evil fethery too. I'd like to think we learn from our mistakes though.

 feeder wrote:
'Bama definitely benefitted from a cult of personality.

Only if we equate "people like him" with a cult of personality.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 feeder wrote:
'Bama definitely benefitted from a cult of personality.

Only if we equate "people like him" with a cult of personality.

No, I think it was more pronounced than that. It wasn't constructed by state run media, but there was definitely "an idealized, heroic, and worshipful image of a leader, often through unquestioning flattery and praise." He rode a wave of "Hope" and "Change" and "Feth Bush" to the presidency, for sure.

I mean, yeah it's not a textbook Cult of Personality, like with Mao, but I remember an atmosphere of overwhelming adulation.

 Vaktathi wrote:


EDIT: more and more I am coming to believe that major Twitter usage is a sign of a mental disorder. Nothing positive seems to flow from the platform, no matter what ones politics and tendencies are, and increasingly it appears its sole function is to either sling gak or to commit professional/social suicide.

Twitter is really becoming a cesspool of all the worst attributes of the human id...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:

Unfortunately, I think these things wax and wane generationally... we freaking relocated and put American-Japanese in camps ~75 years ago (still living memory!).

Yeah, my country engaged in that evil fethery too. I'd like to think we learn from our mistakes though.

Huh? I thought Canadians were always nice (except ya'll burnt down the WhiteHouse at one time ).

But, seriously... every country has some history that we're all ashamed of... what matters is that we don't repeat it.