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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Turn 1
-Lootas shoot
-30 Boyz get jumped with non-zero chance of failure. Also assuming the opponent has no units buffering the places they can land to get their guns in range.

Lootas, 40 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.7 wounds, 3.33 though, 6.7 damage
Boyz, 60 shots, 20 hits, 6.7 wounds, 2.2 through, 2.2 damage

No, Lootas shoot and 30 boyz jump along with 90 Kommandos in 6-18 squads (Depending on how many other units I bring) I then proceed to charge with 7-19 squads with a success rate of just under 50% so 3 - 9 get into Combat, I then pile into any nearby units and at the end of the combat if I win I then advance to the next closest unit and maybe tie that unit up.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Turn 2
-Lootas shoot
-Boyz jump

Lootas : 6.7
Boyz : 4.4 -- assuming you'd have 60 models within 18" of the target...which you won't.

Boyz Jump and reinforce my remaining units, the surviving Kommandos and or Boy unit then moves and charges more units and proceeds to mulch them as well. I now have 2 units of boyz and several units of Kommandos on your side of the board, directly attacking your stuff which is now suffering heavily. Then Turn 3 comes around and my remaining boyz squad and support staff shows up and we then win the game either on points or by you giving up. That is my tournament list though so

 Bobthehero wrote:
You want them equal, that's what your post is about, its wrong, the Ork equivalent of a Punisher shouldn't be 30 shots, it should be 25, at best, the point being that the Guard one is better.

There's a problem with this logic. Guards have access to all sorts of mellee units that can mulch orks without any problems via soup while orks don't have access to really good shooty units.

Besides, i'm not seeing too many ig mellee units. In fact i see none fielded - even though there are ogryns in the book. Because mellee is not the hole you need to plug when you have killer shooting. Shooting is inherently superior to mellee because it's much more reliable, doesn't need much effort to pull off and it's target priority is only limited by range. Mellee is a whole different story. Mellee armies need at least some shooting. I see absolutely no reason to negate ok shooting to mellee armies. For example, khornates have access to all sort of shooting and while it might be a bit inferior, it's not abysmal like ork shooting is.

That's the reason you see greentides. Not because they're so great and fun to play but because no other style works at all. And part of the reason is this flawed logic and strange prices. It's like saying: "You know what, IG have a very powerful gunline with all those russes, artillery and bauble wraps, giving them good deepstriking is too much. Let's make plasma scions as effective at killing tanks as, say, lootas. A loota inflicts 0.019608 dpp to a tank. A plasma scion inflicting this kind of damage should cost 88 ppm. Seems legit. Since your gunline is so good, deepstriking scion comsquad must cost 352 pts for balance purposes". Will you ever take this unit? But it's balanced, man! You shouldn't have this things equally good!

 koooaei wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
You want them equal, that's what your post is about, its wrong, the Ork equivalent of a Punisher shouldn't be 30 shots, it should be 25, at best, the point being that the Guard one is better.

There's a problem with this logic. Guards have access to all sorts of mellee units that can mulch orks without any problems via soup while orks don't have access to really good shooty units.

Besides, i'm not seeing too many ig mellee units. In fact i see none fielded - even though there are ogryns in the book. Because mellee is not the hole you need to plug when you have killer shooting. Shooting is inherently superior to mellee because it's much more reliable, doesn't need much effort to pull off and it's target priority is only limited by range. Mellee is a whole different story. Mellee armies need at least some shooting. I see absolutely no reason to negate ok shooting to mellee armies. For example, khornates have access to all sort of shooting and while it might be a bit inferior, it's not abysmal like ork shooting is.

That's the reason you see greentides. Not because they're so great and fun to play but because no other style works at all. And part of the reason is this flawed logic and strange prices.

But you were saying ork shooting should be EQUAL to IG shooting. so let's see. Ork shooting equals to IG shooting=shooting war they are equal. But wait even basic ork shoota boy is better in cc than IG so if ork is 1=1 in shooting then funnily enough orks are better than IG. Same shooting, better h2h. Oh and more survivability to boot.

tneva82 wrote:

But you were saying ork shooting should be EQUAL to IG shooting

Could you please quote me saying this?

 koooaei wrote:
There's a problem with this logic. Guards have access to all sorts of mellee units that can mulch orks without any problems via soup while orks don't have access to really good shooty units.

So? Soup is another problem entirely and a single codex probably shouldn't be as powerful or versatile as 3-4 others combined. Personally, I have no interest in other Imperial factions, so I play pure Guard, I'd rather not feel like I should player other factions to match Xenos that can't have friends.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
There's a problem with this logic. Guards have access to all sorts of mellee units that can mulch orks without any problems via soup while orks don't have access to really good shooty units.

So? Soup is another problem entirely and a single codex probably shouldn't be as powerful or versatile as 3-4 others combined. Personally, I have no interest in other Imperial factions, so I play pure Guard, I'd rather not feel like I should player other factions to match Xenos that can't have friends.

That's NOT another problem. Soup is in the core rules. What do you think about 88 ppm scion comsquads?

It is another problem, we're comparing Guard stuff vs Orks stuff, not Guard + SM + Other imperial stuff. Unless you want your single codex to be as versatile as 2-3 other codecies, which would only encourage soup further for those that can, and that's bad.

Don't get the question about comsquads, I pack two, one with hotshot volley guns and the other with melta guns. They serve me well, same as the Tempestor Primes that I have to include to rock the squads.

But why should you have great deepstrikers when you have great gunline and orks shouldn't have great long-ranged shooting while having great mellee? And you can't just ignore the soup aspect. The fact that you're not into it doesn't make it less of an issue in games. It's like saying dark reapers and flyrants are perfectly fine because i don't field them.

By the way, Scion plasma comsquads will cost you 132 pts to field, including the Prime which you can't avoid paying, that's more expensive than a Basilisk. So its not that amazing of a deal for something that will die on turn one. And with both units, you'll easily hit your intended target. So I don't really get why a unit deep striking is so different from an artillery gun shelling you from behind cover.

I never said the Orks should have crappy shooting, just that it shouldn't match the Guard's.

Souping is irrelevant when it comes to codex vs codex.

 Bobthehero wrote:
By the way, Scion plasma comsquads will cost you 132 pts to field, including the Prime which you can't avoid paying, that's more expensive than a Basilisk. So its not that amazing of a deal for something that will die on turn one. And with both units, you'll easily hit your intended target. So I don't really get why a unit deep striking is so different from an artillery gun shelling you from behind cover.

I never said the Orks should have crappy shooting, just that it shouldn't match the Guard's.

Souping is irrelevant when it comes to codex vs codex.

I never said ork shooting should match guard shooting. It should be good enough to field - not like it's now.

Adding a tempestor drops their ppm to around 78 ppm, ok - now it's fair.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
There's a problem with this logic. Guards have access to all sorts of mellee units that can mulch orks without any problems via soup while orks don't have access to really good shooty units.

So? Soup is another problem entirely and a single codex probably shouldn't be as powerful or versatile as 3-4 others combined. Personally, I have no interest in other Imperial factions, so I play pure Guard, I'd rather not feel like I should player other factions to match Xenos that can't have friends.

Well "I'd rather not feel like I should play" pure greentide to match IG or even compete against any other army. Especially when for years I've happily seen Ork armies focus on shooty units. What the hell is with all these self centered IG players that have come out of the wood work. For years you guys were lower tear just like Orks and we use to sit together and laugh about how our armies were the "real" armies! Now, all of a sudden you've all forgot about every edition before 8th and just presumed Orks are meant to be this way... You were my brothers! We loved you! Now some of you get one taste of power and you act like the friend who gets rich and forgets about how life used to be so hard for us...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also don't scions deepstrike? How dobthey die turn 1 before their job has been done?

It is actually really funny that people get surprised when they can't beat greentide because the actual greentide formation in 7th looked super scary but a smart player just reduced it to en endless pile in. Now its the real deal and people are angry.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU LOST TO ORKS OMG YOU SUCK DUDE.

I have heard someone say this recently. In the collective conciousness of 40k, Orks are in the zeitgeist as the easy fun opponent. Gaks about to change though. New dex incoming and I have a feeling...

Problem is green tide is still counterable and that's only build. And whether codex changes...Dubious. Especially as studio doesn't have anybody enthustiastic about the army.

The green tide in a competitive meta where hordes are common is not scary at all. Especially now that almost everyone has a codex to toy with.

 Nithaniel wrote:
It is actually really funny that people get surprised when they can't beat greentide because the actual greentide formation in 7th looked super scary but a smart player just reduced it to en endless pile in. Now its the real deal and people are angry.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU LOST TO ORKS OMG YOU SUCK DUDE.

I have heard someone say this recently. In the collective conciousness of 40k, Orks are in the zeitgeist as the easy fun opponent. Gaks about to change though. New dex incoming and I have a feeling...

Given orks and Tyranids were essentially in the same position, i.e. dangerous in combat but struggling to get there, and how the codex let the bugs get up close and personal I have moderate hopes for the codex.

GW have no idea what they want orks to be, but fully expect stratagems for "move - advance then charge", a clan trait for "fall back and charge again" and similar

leopard wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:

GW have no idea what they want orks to be, but fully expect stratagems for "move - advance then charge", a clan trait for "fall back and charge again" and similar

I've seen this many times in many threads and as a side thought to Orks in general It has always seemed to me that Ork units need to work together to win. So when I read things like the quoted statement I wonder about the army lists players are using as a whole and wonder if they are focused to one thing or a mix of tasks, how balanced are they? I know anything not boys just isn't as good but from my XP they do help armies win. I would say the do more so now as there are layers to this game that didn't used to be there.

As for lootas I have used one mob of 6 or 7 one time in one game and they did ok but the enemy saved far too much that game and I just haven't put them back in a list for now as I have been changing what I play every few games because I have lots of models I collected and hardly use. I have maybe 40 lootas and am trimming my collection, I plan to keep no more than 30 but doubt I'll ever field more than 25.
(I have far too much of everything after over 20 years.)

One other question I have for players about lootas and other units, do you look at their stats and just decide they aren't worth the time and are you afraid of using them because they aren't optimal?
I keep being surprised by units I paid no mind too in earlier editions, flash gitz have been fun and useful and I plan to but more of them.(as an example.)

 lolman1c wrote:

Well "I'd rather not feel like I should play" pure greentide to match IG or even compete against any other army.

At least you'd get to play your own codex...

 lolman1c wrote:

Especially when for years I've happily seen Ork armies focus on shooty units. What the hell is with all these self centered IG players that have come out of the wood work. For years you guys were lower tear just like Orks and we use to sit together and laugh about how our armies were the "real" armies! Now, all of a sudden you've all forgot about every edition before 8th and just presumed Orks are meant to be this way... You were my brothers! We loved you! Now some of you get one taste of power and you act like the friend who gets rich and forgets about how life used to be so hard for us...

k

 lolman1c wrote:
Also don't scions deepstrike? How dobthey die turn 1 before their job has been done?

Should have said ''die after 1 turn of shooting''

 warhead01 wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:

GW have no idea what they want orks to be, but fully expect stratagems for "move - advance then charge", a clan trait for "fall back and charge again" and similar

I've seen this many times in many threads and as a side thought to Orks in general It has always seemed to me that Ork units need to work together to win. So when I read things like the quoted statement I wonder about the army lists players are using as a whole and wonder if they are focused to one thing or a mix of tasks, how balanced are they? I know anything not boys just isn't as good but from my XP they do help armies win. I would say the do more so now as there are layers to this game that didn't used to be there.

As for lootas I have used one mob of 6 or 7 one time in one game and they did ok but the enemy saved far too much that game and I just haven't put them back in a list for now as I have been changing what I play every few games because I have lots of models I collected and hardly use. I have maybe 40 lootas and am trimming my collection, I plan to keep no more than 30 but doubt I'll ever field more than 25.
(I have far too much of everything after over 20 years.)

One other question I have for players about lootas and other units, do you look at their stats and just decide they aren't worth the time and are you afraid of using them because they aren't optimal?
I keep being surprised by units I paid no mind too in earlier editions, flash gitz have been fun and useful and I plan to but more of them.(as an example.)

Can't speak for everyone else but i've tried almost every ork unit in the index several times, but in reality, you don't even have to try a unit to see how bad it is, all you have to do is pit it against a similar unit or a unit in the same army and compare its strategic values. So for a unit like lootas. You can take 15 and have decent morale but you just sunk WAY to many points into a shooting unit that averages 10 S7 hits a turn, that isn't atrocious damage until you consider that it cost you more then a predator or two. Add to that there complete lack of armor and you see why they aren't worth taking. They are the epitome of glass cannon...except they have the glass part, they just don't have the cannon part.

For flashgitz the math is even easier. Heavy weapon with 24in range, 6+ armor, massively expensive? yeah, not going to work foot sloggin, and since none of our vehicles allow passengers to ignore movement they are just not worth the points investment. The real kicker is when you compare them to a similar points amount of boyz and the damage/durability the boyz have compared to the ranged unit.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
There's a problem with this logic. Guards have access to all sorts of mellee units that can mulch orks without any problems via soup while orks don't have access to really good shooty units.

So? Soup is another problem entirely and a single codex probably shouldn't be as powerful or versatile as 3-4 others combined. Personally, I have no interest in other Imperial factions, so I play pure Guard, I'd rather not feel like I should player other factions to match Xenos that can't have friends.

Well "I'd rather not feel like I should play" pure greentide to match IG or even compete against any other army. Especially when for years I've happily seen Ork armies focus on shooty units. What the hell is with all these self centered IG players that have come out of the wood work. For years you guys were lower tear just like Orks and we use to sit together and laugh about how our armies were the "real" armies! Now, all of a sudden you've all forgot about every edition before 8th and just presumed Orks are meant to be this way... You were my brothers! We loved you! Now some of you get one taste of power and you act like the friend who gets rich and forgets about how life used to be so hard for us...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also don't scions deepstrike? How dobthey die turn 1 before their job has been done?

lolman, don’t engage with bobthehero, you’ve got the right read on him.

As for lootaz, they really need to be a lot cheaper points wise (compare with devilgaunts, which have comparable toughness/save, and can pump out a minimum of three S4 shots per model, and 6 with a stratagem, for only 8 ppm). Considering the higher potential damage output they have, they should be like 11 or 12 points per guy. They could also use a special rule (possibly a racial trait for evil suns or something like that would work too) where they can outright ignore negative to-hit modifiers due to the excessive amounts of dakka they are throwing down range.

If lootas fire enough shots to ignore modifier, surely everything that fires 15+ shots should have the same rule, right?

No. Orks are famous for making things that shouldn't work function. Like ramshackle vehicles that should fall apart yet speed across the battlefield, or just filling the air with so much fire that they mysteriously hit things because there is nowhere to stand an be missed.

Filling the air with shots, kinda like a punisher would do, uh uh, go on...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Filling the air with shots, kinda like a punisher would do, uh uh, go on...

I feel like you are intentionally missing the point here, or are at the very least unfamiliar with ork lore. Maybe go have a quick read of a wiki page? Orks are famous for going all out with their guns, lootas especially. A good, fluffy representation of ork shooting would be to double the shots of all of their guns. That way we actually get an army of lunatics that can't aim (still bs5+) that make up for it with sheer Dakka . Right now we are stuck with an army of lunatics who can't aim and are stuck with the same guns as everyone's else yet for some reason pay more for each weapon. Great balancing

I am unfortunately aware of Ork lore. I also agreed that their shooting needs a buff, I disagreed with the suggestions to buff them (having it match IG shooting, having them ignore shooting penalties)

What is it about ignoring penalties that you don't agree with? I loved the idea as soon as I heard it. Fits the fluff, gives orks a buff to shooting (which they desperately need, but still keeps them from becoming op by keepig the current bs5), and provides a slight counter to the negative hit modifier problems that everyone seems to complain about on the forums.

It make no sense to give to Orks only, when you got weapons that put out more shots than they do. I'd just let everyone hit on a 6 always and be happy with it (or remove penalties to hit/introduce more bonuses to hit to cancel out penalties)

Every army should have exactly the same point efficiency in all aspects of the game. So if lootas are worse at shooting than autocannons, and have worse armor, and half the wounds, they should cost less. MUCH less.

What should limit armies is not point inefficiency, just the availability of options and combinations.

 Bobthehero wrote:
It make no sense to give to Orks only, when you got weapons that put out more shots than they do. I'd just let everyone hit on a 6 always and be happy with it (or remove penalties to hit/introduce more bonuses to hit to cancel out penalties)

I'm not really on the "ignore penalty" side, but what does number of shots have to do with it? The logic goes: Orks don't aim but shoot a lot, therefore if there is any trickery or magic that makes something hard to hit, well Orks don't care because they weren't aiming in the first place. IG punishers however do aim, and would thusly be affected by shenanigans.

Though, I still think the easiest and best solution is to just give them a better BS. It has the same effect as increasing the number of shots: 2 shots hitting on 4s will land 1 hit, while 3 shots hitting on 5s will land 1 hit.... It's also easier to balance since you can more easily compare output across factions.

 hippyjr wrote:
What is it about ignoring penalties that you don't agree with? I loved the idea as soon as I heard it. Fits the fluff, gives orks a buff to shooting (which they desperately need, but still keeps them from becoming op by keepig the current bs5), and provides a slight counter to the negative hit modifier problems that everyone seems to complain about on the forums.

Howabout rules that ignore something flat out are not good? That makes hard to balance things out. Suddenly -1 trait guys are paying too much for it. Such hard counters are bad for game.

Also it makes no sense. And there are other ways to deal with ork shooting. More shots for points and then universal rule that says 6 always hits(for all armies).

tneva82 wrote:

 hippyjr wrote:
What is it about ignoring penalties that you don't agree with? I loved the idea as soon as I heard it. Fits the fluff, gives orks a buff to shooting (which they desperately need, but still keeps them from becoming op by keepig the current bs5), and provides a slight counter to the negative hit modifier problems that everyone seems to complain about on the forums.

Howabout rules that ignore something flat out are not good? That makes hard to balance things out. Suddenly -1 trait guys are paying too much for it. Such hard counters are bad for game.

Also it makes no sense. And there are other ways to deal with ork shooting. More shots for points and then universal rule that says 6 always hits(for all armies).

How many shots should lootas get to be effective and to deal with -1 to hit?