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 Bobthehero wrote:
You want them equal, that's what your post is about, its wrong, the Ork equivalent of a Punisher shouldn't be 30 shots, it should be 25, at best, the point being that the Guard one is better.

Ah Bob, to be so wrong so many times in a single thread.

An Ork ranged specialist vehicle should have the capability to put out as much damage as an Imperial Guard, (or any other army) equivalent. That is balance. You seem to conveniently forget that Ogryns and Bullgryns are cqc powerhouses that are arguably better than their Ork counterpart. Boys and the like should stay as they are, Orks are supposed to favour cqc. Our ranged specialists should lose their ability to perform in combat as well as they do and get an appropriate buff to their ranged ability though. No question.

Our tanks, unless given an appropriate buff to their combat damage, need to be able to perform at range or need another buff (durability) to make them balanced. Don't get me started on our warbosses, why they have BS5+ when things like Tau Commanders have WS2+ is beyond reason.

So what would then stop orks from making army that equals IG in shooting? Which they shouldn't be able to do. As it is let's say you make lootas equal to IG shooting and h2h equal with IG(let's see...Guess if you make lootas WS4+, S3, A1 that works. Kinda drastic changes to ork physiology just for taking up big gun). You know what? Lootas would still be superior to IG guys...So army of lootas would thus be superior to IG equilavents. GG.

Orks shouldn't be as good shooting as IG. Useful support yes but not equal to army that's supposed to be one of the shootiest armies out there. Give orks tools to equal that and orks are then let's see...Able to out CC IG. Capable of out-toughing it out IG. Capable of equal shooting. Where IG is supposed to be good?

I've fought Bulgrins myself and although I can't agree with you (on the aspect IG can make an entire army out of them) they have stopped many of my big cc troops in their tracks only to crush them. They're pretty good bubble wraps.

But that's the thing! Ig have cheap bubble wraps (and like they should do because it's IG). They don't even have to care about cc. They can just wrap their front line in double the amount of our Ork boyz and sit and wait. Orks charge in? Just pull out and fire (because IG can just negate the negatives to pulling out of cc) to absorb another attack. All while shooty units behind fire as well. Heck, I've seen this method used perfectly before and even with a shadow sword (or something) that halfed the movement of the units it fired at. It trampled a genestealer shooty tyranid force! A force superior in both ranged and cc than Orks can be!

To be honest i thought about orks not being 'as good' as guard in the shooting dept... they are a CC army i say to my self thats 'orks' no they should't be that good.

But then i considered nids these days... they used to be 'CC'! back in the 90s now they can compete with everyone on shooting and still obviously have that CC focus. Its an army that has the likes of genestealers running with exocrines/hiveguard/tyrannofex.

If we are comparing orks to anyone it should be nids.

tneva82 wrote:
So what would then stop orks from making army that equals IG in shooting? Which they shouldn't be able to do. As it is let's say you make lootas equal to IG shooting and h2h equal with IG(let's see...Guess if you make lootas WS4+, S3, A1 that works. Kinda drastic changes to ork physiology just for taking up big gun). You know what? Lootas would still be superior to IG guys...So army of lootas would thus be superior to IG equilavents. GG.

Orks shouldn't be as good shooting as IG. Useful support yes but not equal to army that's supposed to be one of the shootiest armies out there. Give orks tools to equal that and orks are then let's see...Able to out CC IG. Capable of out-toughing it out IG. Capable of equal shooting. Where IG is supposed to be good?

Just so we don't have this argument again. It's a common misconceptions that Orks don't aim. Sure, newly spawned Ork boyz might just get giddy at the sound if their own weapons and lootas themselves try to make the loudest weapons to scare the enemy but many Orks do train every day and aim. It wasn't until 3rd edition Orks were turned into a "zulu" tribal type race ( i say zulu because this is basically what the 3rd dev team called them if i remember) that Orks actually couldn't aim. So to many Orks have had perfect aim for just as many years as we've had BS5. So lore wise, there can be support for a good shooty Ork army.

However, I don't think Orks should have an amazing shooty loota Ork army. But what they should have is the Death Skulls lore accurate mech army... And army made up of mostly shooty units that benifit them as they head into cc. Ig will always have a major defence and benifit over CC armies built like Orks so Orks need a way to counter this and adapt. I'm not talking just slapping some troops on the table and winning. I'm talking about a player selecting the right combination of troops to fit his play style and using tactics like heavy fire into the front lines to soften up the bubble wrap before the troops hit. Or (if you're a goof players) better defence to help negate some of the negatives to cc. Or even an Evil sunz player... blah blah...

We might get this in the codex but right now we don't have any other play style to fit our lore. IG had lots of choice even in the index. You could mass infintry, mass tank, flyer spam or combined arms. Jungle sneaky fighters, elite warriors, hell you could even have a detachment of space marines with girlyman man in if you wanted to (just because some people want a oure ig army doesn't mean you can't do it).


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 Latro_ wrote:
To be honest i thought about orks not being 'as good' as guard in the shooting dept... they are a CC army i say to my self thats 'orks' no they should't be that good.

But then i considered nids these days... they used to be 'CC'! back in the 90s now they can compete with everyone on shooting and still obviously have that CC focus. Its an army that has the likes of genestealers running with exocrines/hiveguard/tyrannofex.

If we are comparing orks to anyone it should be nids.

Oh yeah. And also nids have pretty epic shooting! I watched a nids vs Orks game the other day and the nids had killed every single important unit (including 2 nauts) with shooting and then tore up the Orks in cc. XD so why do they get both?

Yea basically:

Would you rather have 3 hive guard or 8 lootas... it's pretty obvious the hiveguard are better in every way.

Look up both dataslates and its apples and oranges both are an 'assault cc army'

t5 3 wounds each (9 wounds) 4+ save
vs
t4 1 wounds each (8 wounds 6+ save

6 36" s8 -2 d3 damage shots hitting on 3 which dont need los and ignore cover
vs
8-24 48" s7 -1 2 damage shots hitting on 5

If you luck out and get 24 shots without any snuffing it yet thats 3 marines dead to the hiveguard killing 2.
Against a rhino even if you get the full 24 shots thats 4 dmg vs hive guard 3.5

Again this is if you roll up a max 5-6 for all the shots and none of them have died
All the while the hive guard are behind LoS blocking terrain you cant shoot them and they can shoot you...

this highlights how bad lootas really are.

tneva82 wrote:
So what would then stop orks from making army that equals IG in shooting? Which they shouldn't be able to do. As it is let's say you make lootas equal to IG shooting and h2h equal with IG(let's see...Guess if you make lootas WS4+, S3, A1 that works. Kinda drastic changes to ork physiology just for taking up big gun). You know what? Lootas would still be superior to IG guys...So army of lootas would thus be superior to IG equilavents. GG.

Orks shouldn't be as good shooting as IG. Useful support yes but not equal to army that's supposed to be one of the shootiest armies out there. Give orks tools to equal that and orks are then let's see...Able to out CC IG. Capable of out-toughing it out IG. Capable of equal shooting. Where IG is supposed to be good?

Why are you imposing restrictions on an army that don't exist in the fluff nor should they exist in game? If an Ork player wanted to try to make a shooty army they absolutely should be able to. Bad Moonz are notorious for having guns on top of guns. Is it Deffskulls that are 'unorky' and use humie tactics? Why wouldn't they field a gun line? The army likely wouldn't be made of Boyz and I'm not suggesting a total rewrite of the Toughness for a unit either but the point is that they'd have suitable weaknesses in melee and the psychic phase to compensate.

You're making a whole load of incorrect assumptions - my suggestions are simple - we should be given flexibility to field different types of armies. Units that are RANGED SPECIALISTS should be able to perform that role properly (equivalent to other ranged specialists from other factions) otherwise they are entirely pointless.

Correction there English. Deathskullz make big guns and are still Orky (just untrustworthy because theire meks scam you a lot for loot). Blood axes use human tactics. They wear camouflage and even use human weaponry like rhinos, landraiders and even IG tanks. They were modt likely intended to be the leaders and diplomats for the Ork race but other Orks don't trust them because they're less Orky. It's the reason why some of the most horrifying WAAAGHS were run by Blood Axe warlords. They used terrifying weaponry and tactics that were far more advanced than the usual Goff warband.


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But as I always say! The Ork who turned a moon into a weapon and then smashed that moon into a Imperial planet outshot the IG that day! I'm sure he rolled a few 6s to hit!

 lolman1c wrote:
Correction there English. Deathskullz make big guns and are still Orky (just untrustworthy because theire meks scam you a lot for loot). Blood axes use human tactics. They wear camouflage and even use human weaponry like rhinos, landraiders and even IG tanks. They were modt likely intended to be the leaders and diplomats for the Ork race but other Orks don't trust them because they're less Orky. It's the reason why some of the most horrifying WAAAGHS were run by Blood Axe warlords. They used terrifying weaponry and tactics that were far more advanced than the usual Goff warband.


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But as I always say! The Ork who turned a moon into a weapon and then smashed that moon into a Imperial planet outshot the IG that day! I'm sure he rolled a few 6s to hit!

Ah I always get those two confused! Thanks for clearing it up!

As to your comment on my previous point, I'm not suggesting IG can make an army of Bull/Ogryns. My point is that they are melee specialists that perform their role at least as good (if not better) than our own. We should have the same treatment for our units, no question. Particularly our tanks. Or, as I said before, they should have an appropriate increase to their melee damage output and/or durability.

Ahhh, I get you. So like if we use the same idea the IG player is using... their Ogryn should never be anywhere near our Orks but yet 8ur shooting isn't allowed. I get yah now.

SemperMortis wrote:


Can't speak for everyone else but i've tried almost every ork unit in the index several times, but in reality, you don't even have to try a unit to see how bad it is, all you have to do is pit it against a similar unit or a unit in the same army and compare its strategic values. So for a unit like lootas. You can take 15 and have decent morale but you just sunk WAY to many points into a shooting unit that averages 10 S7 hits a turn, that isn't atrocious damage until you consider that it cost you more then a predator or two. Add to that there complete lack of armor and you see why they aren't worth taking. They are the epitome of glass cannon...except they have the glass part, they just don't have the cannon part.

For flashgitz the math is even easier. Heavy weapon with 24in range, 6+ armor, massively expensive? yeah, not going to work foot sloggin, and since none of our vehicles allow passengers to ignore movement they are just not worth the points investment. The real kicker is when you compare them to a similar points amount of boyz and the damage/durability the boyz have compared to the ranged unit.

You mean 30 S7 shots average, but closer to 35 shots when you spend CP, because it's worth it.

255 points is is one predator plus 50 to 70 points. They are a glass cannon, which means they do REQUIRE KFF and a painboy, so that's another 128 (if my math is correct). That will get you two predators with AC/LC.

Lootas
30 * .333 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5 damage

Predators
8 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 1.8
8 * .666 * .833 * .5 = 2.2




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Dandelion wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
It make no sense to give to Orks only, when you got weapons that put out more shots than they do. I'd just let everyone hit on a 6 always and be happy with it (or remove penalties to hit/introduce more bonuses to hit to cancel out penalties)

I'm not really on the "ignore penalty" side, but what does number of shots have to do with it? The logic goes: Orks don't aim but shoot a lot, therefore if there is any trickery or magic that makes something hard to hit, well Orks don't care because they weren't aiming in the first place. IG punishers however do aim, and would thusly be affected by shenanigans.

Though, I still think the easiest and best solution is to just give them a better BS. It has the same effect as increasing the number of shots: 2 shots hitting on 4s will land 1 hit, while 3 shots hitting on 5s will land 1 hit.... It's also easier to balance since you can more easily compare output across factions.

Not the same effect.

When ignoring modifiers they're only "better" against armies with modifiers. And let's be real. Orks will never be 4+ especially because Gretchin would then be 3+. Giving ignore to Orks and dropping the cost of some weapons should be more than enough.

 lolman1c wrote:
Ahhh, I get you. So like if we use the same idea the IG player is using... their Ogryn should never be anywhere near our Orks but yet 8ur shooting isn't allowed. I get yah now.

You got it brother!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You mean 30 S7 shots average, but closer to 35 shots when you spend CP, because it's worth it.

255 points is is one predator plus 50 to 70 points. They are a glass cannon, which means they do REQUIRE KFF and a painboy, so that's another 128 (if my math is correct). That will get you two predators with AC/LC.

Lootas
30 * .333 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5 damage

Predators
8 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 1.8
8 * .666 * .833 * .5 = 2.2

Have you forgot to add the Predator's damage on to it's calculation or have I read your maths wrong?

Shouldn't it be 2 and 3.5 for their damage respectively?

Have you forgot to add the Predator's damage on to it's calculation or have I read your maths wrong?

Shouldn't it be 2 and 3.5 for their damage respectively?

Sorry - that was a fight of lootas vs preds. Which may seem disingenuous, but I was just making a straight comparison for a real scenario when the opponent doesnt have anti infantry that can reach them.

Lootas are a middling AT weapon that is better off shooting primaris, which is why I prefer tankbustas.

tneva82 wrote:
So what would then stop orks from making army that equals IG in shooting? Which they shouldn't be able to do.

What makes you believe orks shouldn't be able to create a successful shooty list? More than half of our units are shooty units with no mellee whatsoever.

My stance is Orks should have a shooty army. It shouldn't be as good as a shooting army like Tau or IG (Who are like 85+% shooting units) but should be comparable to marines or Tyranids level of shooting who have mixtures of CC and Shooting like the Orks.

 lolman1c wrote:
My stance is Orks should have a shooty army. It shouldn't be as good as a shooting army like Tau or IG (Who are like 85+% shooting units) but should be comparable to marines or Tyranids level of shooting who have mixtures of CC and Shooting like the Orks.

I agree wholeheartedly. I am a Nid/genestealer cult player, and both of those armies are primarily cc armies, but can bring significant shooting to the table to supplement their cc elements, and it works (more so for Nids right now, but GSC is still waiting for their codex). Orks should be the same, just maybe with a suitably orky twist.

It used to be you couldn't play Tyranids competitively unless you brought a Genestealer baneblade. XD

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You mean 30 S7 shots average, but closer to 35 shots when you spend CP, because it's worth it.

255 points is is one predator plus 50 to 70 points. They are a glass cannon, which means they do REQUIRE KFF and a painboy, so that's another 128 (if my math is correct). That will get you two predators with AC/LC.

Lootas
30 * .333 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5 damage

Predators
8 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 1.8
8 * .666 * .833 * .5 = 2.2

Dakka dakka strat is not worth it. It adds about 16% more hits at the cost of a CP. Not worth the investment.

But I see you left out a few things, 15 lootas with a KFF and a Painboy supervising them, which is a really bad tactical decision because now you have hamstrung the rest of your army to give a unit of lootas a 5++ and a 6+++, costs 383pts.
two predators fully kitted out with Auto-cannons, 2 lascannons and a stormbolter is 364pts. The two predators have 4D3 autocannon shots for 8 total on average, 4 lascannon shots and 4 stormbolter shots.

Predators
8 x .666 x .666 = 3.55 Vs that 5++ its 2.36 and the 6+++ is basically irrelevant because you have to make the 6+++ for each dmg done to the model from a AutoCannon which is 3 damage, so that is 2-3 dead Lootas.
4 x .666 x .833 = 2.21 Vs that 5++ its 1.47 and the 6+++ is again basically irrelevant because you have to make a 6+++ VS each piece of dmg and its D6, so another 1-2 dead lootas
4 x .666 x .5 x .666 x .833 = .73 or another dead loota basically. So really you are losing anywhere from 4 to 6 Lootas

The lootas on return fire (at full strength) fire 30 shots so you got that part right, of course you also discounted cover but hey it is what it is.

So at the end you have 2 Predators, one at full strength and 1 missing 4-6 damage (4 unaffected, 6 he is losing some stats) The Lootas on the other hand have just lost 4-6 guys which reduces their leadership and more importantly, severely degrades their future dakka. If they lost 4 they don't have to worry about leadership, if they lost 6 then they have a 50% chance of losing D3 more lootas. Turn 2 is the same as turn 1 except now the lootas are dead regardless because they will lose another 4ish models which reduces them so low they are now taking morale.

So at most you kill 1 predator and lose 255pts of lootas and have used another 128pts of elites/HQs to babysit a borderline useless unit. Now again this is in a vacuum I understand that, but if it wasn't the orkz lose even harder because SMs can easily liquidate a unit of Lootas turn 1 even with 128pts of buffs. And those predators are clearly not optimized to killing infantry, where as Lootas are supposed to be targeting tanks/light vehicles/elite infantry.

SemperMortis wrote:


So at the end you have 2 Predators, one at full strength and 1 missing 4-6 damage (4 unaffected, 6 he is losing some stats) The Lootas on the other hand have just lost 4-6 guys which reduces their leadership and more importantly

Yea, so I did the FNP incorrectly, but I did twice as many lascannon shots as there would be, so your damage actually comes out less - 2.4 + 1.5 instead of 2.2 + 1.8. No SB in that, because in no reality will a predator be in range with storm bolters. Why? Because you're not going to move them.

Additionally, Lootas do damage in 2s. So they would need 3 shots to go through to degrade a predator, which is pretty high given it's 4% to wreck a predator in one turn and 35% in 2 turns. Bracketing a Predator drops it's effectiveness by 25% -- or 12.5% for two overall. Losing 4 our of 15 Lootas is 27%. So, it depends who goes first. To get the second bracket they need only two shots to go through so even if they've lost some it's still entirely feasible. I'd move on after the second bracket depending on objectives, but Predators still keep the advantage, because Lootas are not where they should be overall.

Leadership is absolutely a concern and I wouldn't be caught without a tail to another bigger unit for LD, which is considerably easy to do on turn 1. More points, yes, but they're also doing their own thing on the table, too.

Show me a list that easily liquidates said Lootas on turn 1 and let's not pretend any deepstrikers would be able to get anywhere near them in a proper Ork deployment. Not even Assbacks would have range on them.

Edit: final point - my CP reference was for reroll on shots, but I totally forgot Dakka Dakka, which is actually a 50% increase in shots for them and completely worth it in this scenario.

Wut? Forgive my maths but how is dakka dakka a 50% increase in shots? It's only a 1/6 chance to even attempt to fire again meaning it's a 1/18 chance it gets you more another hit. I can't deal with percentages as I haven't done maths since high school 10 years ago. XD

I think I get you because 5 is hit and 6 is another chance to hit but the 50% is very misleading. I know the whole "percentage and maths rule the world" kinda thing we got going but you're talking 50% more of very low numbers. Compared to Necrons tesla who (excluding Mwbd) still get an extra hit (an auto hit btw) on 6s but also have the hits 3,4,5s. It's really only like 25% more hits if I think I know what you mean but in reality it's more than the 50% more on Orks because there is only a 1/3chance to hit in the first place compared to the 2/3 necron tesla gets.

I tbink my maths os correct but I might be off because I have no idea how to math but....

5 immortals with tesla: 85pts
5 lootas: 85pts

Immortals have a reliable flat 2 shots and have a 3+ save and ld 10 to keep them upfront on the lines. Their also a unit choice for people who want to full brigades out.

With tesla on a 6 ur looking at about 8-9 hits.

With the Lootas at 15 shots with dakkadakka ur looking at about 7 hits or 1 if you roll d1 shots. 4 if d2.

Not saying tesla and immortals are better weapons but 50% extra of 4 is 2 while 25% extra of 8 is also 2. Or some crap... my head hurts... i prefer to use passionate arguments than this panzy maths!

Lol about the 50% increase in shots using the dakkadakka stratagem

Even if you consider the full mob of 15 dudes that rolled that 3 on the number of shots the stratagem gives 7-8 additional shots on average, which means 2-3 hits at S7 and AP-1, tipycally 0-2 more wounds caused than the regular roll without the stratagem. And I'm considering the best case scenario in which I have 15 lootas that fire 45 shots

That stratagem is very lackluster, and it can be maybe decent on a large blob of tankbustas because rokkits have better S, AP and D and bustas re-roll failed hits against vehicles, so you have more odds to get those lucky 6s and they worth more than lootas shots.

What is it about 40k that makes everyone so defeatist?

"My Lootas die to a stiff breeze"
"48 inches just isn't a safe range anymore"
"This orange is somehow comparable and superior to 15 of your apples"

Ya'lls meta is some of that harder-then-everyone-elses meta that apparently chews up 200 orkz a turn, at least that is what I can tell.

I field 30 Lootas often;
-They get first blood often in situations where I can get first blood.
-I can often use their influence on the middle of the battlefield to force enemy 48 inch assets to move forward to shoot them
-You can't compare Tankbustas or Shoota boyz to Lootas, they are different tools in the green tide kit.

Some other thoughts;
-Green tide will often have more units to deploy then an enemy, you should use this disadvantage to your benefit by deploying Lootas near last at a pre measured distance away from the things that will point and remove them if you can. I understand a couple of you live in meta's that only field models that shoot 100 shots each at 72 inches, I'm sorry, Lootas aren't for you.
-Your turn one jumped unit of boyz, and your stormboyz, and your kommandos, should probably be what wins the game for you on turn one and two if you have a chance at winning. The 700 Orkz you brought are only to ensure you run out of time by turn four. Your Lootas should be focused on removing just one or two things that might actually kill all your boyz.

I won't pretend to be good however, most ork lists I produce get tabled in six, even green tide lists that I actually get to play six turns seem to lose in six.

 Blackie wrote:
Lol about the 50% increase in shots using the dakkadakka stratagem

Even if you consider the full mob of 15 dudes that rolled that 3 on the number of shots the stratagem gives 7-8 additional shots on average, which means 2-3 hits at S7 and AP-1, tipycally 0-2 more wounds caused than the regular roll without the stratagem. And I'm considering the best case scenario in which I have 15 lootas that fire 45 shots

That stratagem is very lackluster, and it can be maybe decent on a large blob of tankbustas because rokkits have better S, AP and D and bustas re-roll failed hits against vehicles, so you have more odds to get those lucky 6s and they worth more than lootas shots.

7 shots is 7 shots. I'd totally rather it on rokkits, too, but they have one shot and so less of a chance of triggering.

A havoc with autocannon, which is basically the same gun is 33 points - 145 for a squad. Three of those is 435...slap on 3 more Lootas to make it even. That's 12 AC for CSM and 18 for Lootas. CSM : 24 * .666 = 16 hits / Lootas : 18 * .333 = 12 hits. If the Lootas score 3 shots they get 18 hits.
So it's not too far off. A boy is 6 points making the deffgun gun 11 or 12 points. A rokkit is 12. I can see both dropping a couple points, but not too much more. Autocannons are just in a bad spot, because they don't wound T7 on 3s and T4 on 2s.

Wut? Forgive my maths but how is dakka dakka a 50% increase in shots?

Sorry I worded that poorly - 50% of their hits will get you another shot. That's what I get for posting on the phone.

A havok with an autocannon is 28. Has access to buffs and is much better than lootas overall. Yet they don't hit the table very often cause there are better units for the job. In this regard they're identical to lootas.

Rismonite:

Lootas went from a 4+ cover save to a 5+ save in cover, they die very easily to a number of units in an enemy list and at the hefty price they are worth targetting. If you are bringing 30 Lootas then you are investing 1/4th of your list (2,000pt) into a unit that is considered utter crap across the board. They don't do much damage and die very easily due to low armor save. If you want to compare apples to apples then compare them (our number 1 48in ranged anti-vehicle weapon) to enemy units with a similar purpose. We lose every time.

Your 30 Lootas are getting 60 shots, 20 hits and against a SM Tac squad thats 13ish wounds at -1 AP so you can only kill 6-7. If they lose morale then yeah you get first blood, if not then you just used 500+ points to kill about 100pts of Space Marines.

Daedalus: Dakka Dakka gives you 1 more shot on a hit roll of 6. If you have 45 shots thats 7ish extra SHOTS on average which is 2 extra hits on average.
So how is 2 50% more? hell, how is 7 50% more? it adds 1/6th more hits on average, which is mediocre at best. As someone already pointed out, the only useful unit to use that on is Tankbustas because they get rerolls against vehicles and have higher S, AP and Dmg, and even then it is questionable to use.

Lootas need a hefty increase in their Dmg output to be worth taking, I am fine with keeping them absurdly priced but I want D3+2 shots and at least 5+ armor. And an army wide special rule that lets us either always hit on 6s or completely ignore hit modifiers.

 koooaei wrote:
A havok with an autocannon is 28. Has access to buffs and is much better than lootas overall. Yet they don't hit the table very often cause there are better units for the job. In this regard they're identical to lootas.

Ah, yea, it's so unpopular I didn't remember that they got a 5 point discount in CA. If the Deffgun gets half the hits then it should be half the price technically, so 8 points for 13 to 14 total - a 3 point discount.

I think autocannons are fine for their role if they're cheap enough. A ML for 10 points more starts to feel like a heavy price.

Okay... What about (in my mind their opposite unit because of how they're boxed) the Burna Boy! How does he play? I own about 8 of them and they kinda don;t do much but always look cool in a trukk. XD I think it's also hard to price these units. 10 of them could get 30 shots or they could get 10 shots... that's a major problem with Orks! they tunred their randomness into DX shots... They really need to move away from that and focus on more stuff like Ramshackle (which was a good idea). Random fun rare little things that help Orks out.

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay... What about (in my mind their opposite unit because of how they're boxed) the Burna Boy! How does he play? I own about 8 of them and they kinda don;t do much but always look cool in a trukk. XD

I don't like what they did with the rules. D3 shots is....bleh and Orks are better off with more attacks instead of a meh power weapon. They need a stratagem to make them interesting (and a point drop).

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay... What about (in my mind their opposite unit because of how they're boxed) the Burna Boy! How does he play? I own about 8 of them and they kinda don;t do much but always look cool in a trukk. XD

What I don't get is Lootas having a mek with them now. Lore wise and 7th edition it was fine but doesn't make too much sense in 8th and kinda feels like GW is making you buy 2 boxes to just get 5 Orks. XD

Honestly, don;t think I've even see a single mek by himself in 8th edition... everyone just gets another big mek.