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 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I had a good laugh when Daedalus compared lootas being to cheap to Big Shoota Boyz

I did a thread a while back where the majority agreed a big shoota should cost 2-3pts at most, and honestly in a boyz squad they should be a free upgrade because it sucks in general. A big shoota is a side upgrade for a slugga squad and a minor upgrade to a shoota squad. Its equivalent to a Stormbolter at most.

You should probably go read my posts more closely.

Answer this question -

If a Loota is 9 or 10 points why would I NOT pick a Loota over a basic Shoota Boy?

For one thing, they have two completely different roles. Being troops makes shoota boyz able to fill out battalions rather than spearheads for more CP's. Shoota Boyz can be taken in mobs of 30 vs Lootas being only 15, making them ideal for "the jump" psychic power since they can do something in the case where they don't make the 9" charge. They can have a Nob with PK/BC leading them, and Shoota Boyz still have a lot more utility in CC getting the +1 attack buff for having 20 or more models. Also, given the abundance of -1 to hit modifiers, Lootas still have a lot of issues against many of their ideal targets. I agree with Jidmah's earlier suggestion that Lootas do 2D3 shots and only a slight point decrease rather than simply slashing prices. Bringing costs down only do so much (prime example is the stompa...) and in the case of the big shoota, making it AP-1 or Rapid Fire 3 would make it a much more palatable option.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Answer this question -

If a Loota is 9 or 10 points why would I NOT pick a Loota over a basic Shoota Boy?

They don't fill the same battlefield role.

They don't have obsec.

They are more expensive.

They are less durable, point for point.

They are less likely to ever use their cqc ability.

To be clear I'm talking literal shoota boyz not slugga, which is more directed to the above post.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Answer this question -
If a Loota is 9 or 10 points why would I NOT pick a Loota over a basic Shoota Boy?

They don't fill the same battlefield role.

As in detachment slot? I can fill brigades with gretchin and runtherds.

They don't have obsec.

Useful, but not always relevant.

They are more expensive.

Well, yea, and a better gun.

They are less durable, point for point.

And will have fewer anti infantry guns targeting them from the start,

They are less likely to ever use their cqc ability.

Same with Havoks, but you don't see people scrambling to field CSM.

Let me further demonstrate the problem.

Quad Lad Pred is 190.
That's 19 Lootas (or 21 depending if you go to 9 points).

Shooting something T7 3+
//2 shots
38 * .333 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 6

//3 shots
54 * .333 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 9

And the Predator:

4 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 5.2

So a 44% chance (using CP reroll on shots - 33% otherwise and 33% to cripple) to likely smoke a Predator in one round of shoot which a Laspred can't likely hope to do in 2.

Because even at 9 ppm lootas won't win you games. You still need boyz. Lots and lots of boyz. Lootas just become decent.

 koooaei wrote:
Because even at 9 ppm lootas won't win you games. You still need boyz. Lots and lots of boyz. Lootas just become fieldable.

Exactly. At some point, cutting costs gives you diminishing returns. Also, you never addressed my points. Grotz used as filler means you lose a lot on opportunity cost of taking more boyz and taking multiple runtherds brings the same issue, where they are there literally to babysit. Grotz just act as bullet catchers when Mek Gun Grot Gunnerz do the same thing but even cheaper and they effectively have the character rule when it comes to being shot at.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
snip

Listen, you've kinda admitted why you're here with your previous assertion. It's good to have someone who constantly plays devil's advocate and tries to open a discussion.

I think we're kinda passed that point now though. You're trying to defend a unit that has no place and is not fit for purpose. I understand some of your points and I agree with some of them. But stating that Lootas can't be 9ppm because it makes 6ppm Shoota Boyz redundant is not an intelligent argument.

Always hitting on a 6+ won't fix Lootas. They need more, as can be said for a lot in our index. It's even more clear when you compare them to units in other armies that fulfill a similar role.

What I would like to see is synergy across our codex as well as the comparable reductions that units in other codexes have received. Perhaps Big Meks can provide some sort of buff to nearby units in the shooting phase. Give us a reason to take SAG Meks and Lootas together, as we'd imagine them in the fluff.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
snip

Listen, you've kinda admitted why you're here with your previous assertion. It's good to have someone who constantly plays devil's advocate and tries to open a discussion.

I think we're kinda passed that point now though. You're trying to defend a unit that has no place and is not fit for purpose. I understand some of your points and I agree with some of them. But stating that Lootas can't be 9ppm because it makes 6ppm Shoota Boyz redundant is not an intelligent argument.

Always hitting on a 6+ won't fix Lootas. They need more, as can be said for a lot in our index. It's even more clear when you compare them to units in other armies that fulfill a similar role.

What I would like to see is synergy across our codex as well as the comparable reductions that units in other codexes have received. Perhaps Big Meks can provide some sort of buff to nearby units in the shooting phase. Give us a reason to take SAG Meks and Lootas together, as we'd imagine them in the fluff.

More than simply Devil's Advocate.

We're all in agreement. Lootas are not costed well.

(Also i'm not sure where the always 6+ to hit for Lootas comes from. I haven't argued for that.)

In any case we're now squabbling over the details and suggesting 9 or 10ppm Lootas will break the game and the army. Even simply compare to 5 havoks w/ 4LC is cheaper at 165. That's 16 (10ppm) to 18 (9ppm) Lootas.

Lootas shoot marines
32 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 3.5 dead marines

30 Shoota Boyz shoot marines
60 * .333 * .5 * .333 = 3.3 (don't get me started about cover)

Marines shoot Lootas
4 * .666 * .833 = 2.2 (They wouldn't, but this is illustrative)

Lootas shoot a T7 3+ tank
32 * .333 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5.3

Marines shoot a T7 3+ tank
4 * .666 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 5.2

So Lootas are:
-Better than LC at hurting T7 and below (at 2 shots)
-Also capable of taking on infantry
-Better than Shoota Boyz at killing infantry - from 48"

When marines lose a LC they lose 25% of their effectiveness.
When Lootas lose a model that's 6% of their effectiveness.

I can't see how any person can rationally argue for this - and that's at 10ppm without even considering a 3 shot round.

QED Shoota Boyz as any sort of functional unit would be irrelevant. Sure, you'd take them for bodies, but you'd do the work with Lootas.

 koooaei wrote:
Because even at 9 ppm lootas won't win you games. You still need boyz. Lots and lots of boyz. Lootas just become decent.

Lootas at 9 ppm will win games.

You wouldn't need boys, you wouldn't need anything beyond Lootas, an HQ and maybe a few screens.

The only thing that would counter 9ppm lootas would be negative hit modifiers.

I think 11 or 12pts per model is fair. It's about half the price of a dev with a heavy bolter.

Tyran wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Because even at 9 ppm lootas won't win you games. You still need boyz. Lots and lots of boyz. Lootas just become decent.

Lootas at 9 ppm will win games.

You wouldn't need boys, you wouldn't need anything beyond Lootas, an HQ and maybe a few screens.

The only thing that would counter 9ppm lootas would be negative hit modifiers.

Are autocannon havoks dominating games? We've just literally made lootas as effective as autocannon havoks.

I'm not saying that lootas SHOULD cost 9-10 ppm. I'm just pointing out how awful they currently are and that their mathematical point cost with current rules is 9 ppm if you compare them even to such a mediocre unit as csm autocannon havoks. Which proposes lootas are almost two times overpriced. Would you protect a 140 pts rhino in a same way you're protecting lootas?

If they continue to cost 17 ppm, they bloody well need some good buffs like more shots, better bs and better armor. If they get down to ~13 pts they still need buffs.

If i were to fix lootas, i'd increase their bs first because it not only deals with price issues, it deals with negative modifier being too gravy.

Tyran wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Because even at 9 ppm lootas won't win you games. You still need boyz. Lots and lots of boyz. Lootas just become decent.

Lootas at 9 ppm will win games.

You wouldn't need boys, you wouldn't need anything beyond Lootas, an HQ and maybe a few screens.

The only thing that would counter 9ppm lootas would be negative hit modifiers.

Negative modifiers that basically everyone have.

Even at 10-11ppm I wouldn't take more than 30 at most, but even 15 don't sound like an auto take.

They're still t-shirt save dudes with bs5+. Unleashing a massive amount of S4 with no ap in combat and tarpit the enemy shooters with the blobs is the way to go with orks, not shooting with an army of lootas.

 koooaei wrote:

Are autocannon havoks dominating games? We've just literally made lootas as effective as autocannon havoks.

I'm not saying that lootas SHOULD cost 9-10 ppm. I'm just pointing out how awful they currently are and that their mathematical point cost with current rules is 9 ppm if you compare them even to such a mediocre unit as csm autocannon havoks. Which proposes lootas are almost two times overpriced. Would you protect a 140 pts rhino in a same way you're protecting lootas?

No, in your rush to drop their cost for durability you made them better than LC Havoks. This is why I play "Devil's Advocate" - if you guys can't see why this is such a terrible idea how the hell are you properly judging the value of other units?

But let's do AC Havoks again, which is 12 10ppm Lootas.

v T7 3+
Lootas
24 * .333 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 4

Havoks
8 * .666 * .5 *.5 * 2 = 2.7

For every death of a Havok with AC they lose 25% of their effectiveness.
For every death of a Loota they lose 8% of their effectiveness.

Lootas shoot Havoks
2.7 die and Havoks are now 50 to 75% effectiveness

Havoks shoot Lootas
3.5 die and Lootas are 75%

And once again 3 shots would upend the whole unit.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

No, in your rush to drop their cost for durability you made them better than LC Havoks.

I can see that. However, keep in mind that lootas loose 50% effectiveness vs -1 to hit. Means they can't even reposition without severe dps losses unlike bs3 units that loose only half of that. And they suffer from morale. And there is no way to buff their shooting outside of an extremely underwhelmng dakka dakka strategem.

 koooaei wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

No, in your rush to drop their cost for durability you made them better than LC Havoks.

I can see that. However, keep in mind that lootas loose 50% effectiveness vs -1 to hit. Means they can't even reposition without severe dps losses unlike bs3 units that loose only half of that. And they suffer from morale. And there is no way to buff their shooting outside of an extremely underwhelmng dakka dakka strategem.

-1 to hit definitely needs to be addressed for Orks, but it isn't the majority of armies with such a rule. Mob Rule gives Orks better LD than my Rubrics until half their unit is gone...and it's more than easy enough to tail a unit of 30 boyz to them.

 koooaei wrote:

Are autocannon havoks dominating games? We've just literally made lootas as effective as autocannon havoks.

AC Havok.
28 points. 2 shots, bs3+, 4/3 hits. 21 points for each hit.
9ppm Loota. 2 shots, bs5+, 2/3 hit. 13.5 points for eac hit.

I don't see how in the math's hell a AC Havok is equal to a 9ppm Loota.

We've also included durability and lack of access to buffs.

okay, this maths is confusing me... seriously... no idea what we are even walking about anymore. I have a Masters but it aint in maths!

 lolman1c wrote:
okay, this maths is confusing me... seriously... no idea what we are even walking about anymore. I have a Masters but it aint in maths!

You don't know math, but you know more Dakka! This isn't simply Dakka Dakka, but Dakka Dakka Dakka DAKKA!!!

I hope that helps.

The big difference between Havoks or any other SM unit and Lootas is that they sit in cover enjoying a 2+ save while someone farts in the general direction of the Lootas and they die then run away.

Morale is definitely an issue for Lootas, I'm sorry but in an actual game you're not going to string back a squad of 30 Boyz. You're also not going to have a Painboy or KFF Big Mek after turn 1 (if at all).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The big difference between Havoks or any other SM unit and Lootas is that they sit in cover enjoying a 2+ save while someone farts in the general direction of the Lootas and they die then run away.

Morale is definitely an issue for Lootas, I'm sorry but in an actual game you're not going to string back a squad of 30 Boyz. You're also not going to have a Painboy or KFF Big Mek after turn 1 (if at all).

Why would you not have your generally untargetable characters after turn 1?

The cost calculation koooaei made to get Lootas to 9ppm included marines in cover so this cost makes them "equal", but people forget that also increases their overall shooting effectiveness, too.

1 havok in cover has 2+ armor save, gets an average of 1.33 hits and costs 28 pts. Durability coefficient is (5/6) / 28 = 0.0298, damage coefficient is 1.33 / 28 = 0.0457
1 loota in cover has 5+ armor save, gets an average of 0.67 hits and costs 17 pts. Durability coefficient is (2/6) / 17 = 0.0196, damage coefficient is 0.67 / 17 = 0.0394

Daedalus81, how's tabletop simulator stuff going on?

 koooaei wrote:
Daedalus81, how's tabletop simulator stuff going on?

Confusing as frig. We might have to do Vassal, but the missus is gone tomorrow morning so once the baby goes down for a nap i'm going to try and config it to be ready in the evening when all the kids are down. (Just a bit after 8PM EST)

 koooaei wrote:
We've also included durability and lack of access to buffs.

How do you math lack of access to buffs anyway?

As for durability:

Cover wounds

6 needed to kill a Havoc
1.5 needed to kill a Loota.

Havoc is 4 times more durable than Loota.

ap0 wounds.
3 needed to kill a Havoc
6/5 needed to kill a Loota.

Havoc is 2.5 times more durable than Loota.

ap-1 wounds.
2 needed to kill a Havoc
1 needed to kill a Loota.

Havoc is 2 times more durable than Loota.

ap-2 wounds.
1.5 needed to kill a Havoc
1 needed to kill a Loota.

Havoc is 1.5 times more durable than Loota.

ap-3 wounds.
6/5 needed to kill a Havoc
1 needed to kill a Loota.

Havoc is 6/5 times more durable than Loota.

ap-4 and better wounds.
1 needed to kill a Havoc
1 needed to kill a Loota.

Havoc is equal to a Loota.

Even only using durability, there is no way to justify a 9ppm Loota which would be more than 3 times cheaper than a Havoc, unless the entire game is based on being on cover and lack of any AP whatsoever.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Why would you not have your generally untargetable characters after turn 1?

You would? They just wouldn't be anywhere near your Lootas.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Daedalus81, how's tabletop simulator stuff going on?

Confusing as frig. We might have to do Vassal, but the missus is gone tomorrow morning so once the baby goes down for a nap i'm going to try and config it to be ready in the evening when all the kids are down. (Just a bit after 8PM EST)

Weekend is the way to go. Working during the week.

 koooaei wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Daedalus81, how's tabletop simulator stuff going on?

Confusing as frig. We might have to do Vassal, but the missus is gone tomorrow morning so once the baby goes down for a nap i'm going to try and config it to be ready in the evening when all the kids are down. (Just a bit after 8PM EST)

Weekend is the way to go. Working during the week.

Blarg. Weekends are very difficult...let me try and get approval from the boss.

News just in! Gw doesn't even try to hide it anymore!

 lolman1c wrote:
News just in! Gw doesn't even try to hide it anymore!

Spoiler:

How would you hide such a massive pile of junk?

 lolman1c wrote:
News just in! Gw doesn't even try to hide it anymore!

Spoiler:

Well, that's salt in the wound!

Also is it just me or did they spell invulnerable wrong?