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It's not a secret that we have the most beloved army here - it's Chaos Space Marines. And now, a couple of months after the release, it's time to find out how is it going with one of the most interesting legions - the Thousand Sons.

Perhaps a blog would be worth calling "Is there a life without Magnus?" So far, he still remains the main reason to play this army - the rise in price in no way made him less popular. We are much more interested in other units.

This was feared at the stage of release, and this is confirmed now - the main problem of the Thousand Sons army is the fact that there is practically nothing to use in it. Like this. Normal rubrics and terminators, in fact, perform the same function. Moreover, unexpectedly, 10 rubrics have the same number of wounds, the same firepower, and cost almost like 5 terminators. The difference in save does not play a special role, because the terminators are likely to get shot by something with high armor-piercing. Given the fairly popular tactics to enter via deepstrike for the stratagem/artifact, they even begin to perform the same function on the battlefield - destroying the screen.

They succeed in this quite easily. But when they face more durable targets. they cannot offer anything. Do not take seriously the missiles on the terminators. Moreover, they quickly die, getting under serious fire. "All is dust» rule saves against the weakest shooting, but if the enemy focuses them, he will quickly sweep away your costly units. In this regard, the rubrics look even more interesting - they at least force the enemy to target one wound models with high damage shooting. Definitely, an increase of the invulnerable save by 1 for both groups would lead to a significant increase in efficiency. In this case, it would not break the game at all - even with magic, they would get a maximum of 3 ++. The Wolves now have it everywhere, and the balance has not yet broken.

And what other Space Marines are there? We came here to play a legion ... And, in general, there’s none of them. The variety of sorcerers, in practice, boils down to Ahriman and one Exalted (though better, a Demon prince), and a Sorcerer in TDA to cast warptime on the units that have left entered the game via deepstrike. And they are too expensive. That’s all Space Marines in this codex. And it’s time for beastmen.

Tzaangors are good in any combinations. They are cheap, they can now be delivered by deepstrike, hit twice, can be improved with magic and shaman abilities. The option on the disc with bows is generally perfect - there is no other mobile shooting in this codex at all. And then there is an interesting question - do you really need Space Marines in this army? Practically, you can completely do without them. The units effectively destroyed by rubrics can be equally effectively destroyed by Tzaangors, at a much lower price.

In general, this is how a sports roster for the Thousand Sons looks like - Magnus, Tzaangors, and allies. The Death Guard, for example. But, in fact, this criticism does not mean that this codex is not interesting to play in the fan games. A huge variety of magic still makes the game more fun. Although, most spells, of course, are not used. The ability to use deepstrike also adds flexibility. Therefore, the main problem of this codex is not a small number of tactics, but a small number of units.

GW was frankly too lazy to finish this army. In the seventh edition, they still were not a separate codex and could be more interesting due to the formations and their features. For a full-fledged codex, they now have few tools. Look at the Death Guard. A ton of characters, different options for units, and even the basic troops can be taken both in shooting and in close combat modes. For example, they could create a squad of rubrics with heavy weapons? Or terminators, with a wider variety of options for melee? Special patterns of tanks, and much more. There are so many ideas that I want to write a fandex myself. Or, hope that in the next version of this codex GW will somehow expand this army of Tzaangors…

Find more in our blog: https://warzone40k.com/thousand-sons-how-to-play

Oh you didn't hear?

Many think the T-Sons *should not* get an expanded range because it wouldn't fit the fluff. They get mad when we players point out how bare-bones our army is.



Actually hating on players who want their ranges expanded upon. If i spent too many years being that petty I might find myself falling to the forces of chaos and becoming some sort of SJW creature.

hazefrog wrote:
Oh you didn't hear?

Many think the T-Sons *should not* get an expanded range because it wouldn't fit the fluff. They get mad when we players point out how bare-bones our army is.



Actually hating on players who want their ranges expanded upon. If i spent too many years being that petty I might find myself falling to the forces of chaos and becoming some sort of SJW creature.

That's very disingenuous and hugely mischaracterizes the posts of others.

I don't see anyone hating on players. I see people pointing out the silliness of expectations of players. Thousand Sons became a codex because A) GW wanted to sell a few new cool kits, and B) it gets people to buy another book. Like every other minor faction book, it's just about "enough" models to justify a codex to get those extra purchases.

Expecting more is a very silly expectation. If you know how the production process works for GW, I find it bizarre anyone expects their minor corner of the 40K universe to get an amazing huge line of models/support/deep and better rules, etc. If anything you should be friggin' stoked you actually get what was released. That's awesome. Something about a gift horse and it's dental cavity comes to mind.

My only problem with, and why I didn't buy, Codex: Thousand Sons is I went in expecting Thousand Sons, not Tzeentch daemons.

Maybe I am the only idiot who hears Thousand Sons and thinks about the rogue Space Marine faction that defected during the Horus Heresy...

Cause apparently the Thousand Sons are really just Tzaangors.

But that has been my gripe, and persists to being my gripe on it. I was a good ways in converting an army to Tzeentch/1K Sons, but stopped when the first previews indicated I wouldn't be getting a lot of support for the actual traitor legion the book was named for.

Tzaangors have been in the fluff since the original release of the Lost and the Damned. People used to use Beastmen in their Chaos armies all the time as chaff / filler. Just because the range shrank for a few editions is no reason to pretend they're coming out of nowhere by including them in the Codex.

If you want to complain about Tzaangors, complain about their rules. The problem is they are more competitive than Rubrics and Scarabs. They will remain part of the army for a long time.

That's exactly my point... the Codex pays too much attention to what amounts to the slaves of the legion and almost no attention to the actual legion itself.

Which creates a situation where the legion models are almost worthless to bring and the chaff is all that really sees play - of course discounting the named characters (all of which I think are pretty overpowered vs non-named varieties and almost auto-includes for any faction).

Thus the codex feels more like Codex: Tzeentch Daemons instead of Codex: Thousand Sons.

I got 999 models, and a Rubric ain't one.

Gimme back my soulreaper cannon in 5 rubrics and my 4++ on the scarabs and I will never ever complain about the Thousand Sons codex ever again.

In all fairness... about 1200 Thousand Sons escaped Prospero. They needed to fill their ranks somehow.

Rubric bolters are about as good as the special ammunition Deathwatch gets. It denies saves to a lot of troops. Plus they get the closest thing to an assault cannon available to Chaos.

Scarabs are not bad... I wish they had another wound, similar to Grey Knight Paladins, but there's nothing horrible about them. They just don't outperform Rubrics by a significant margin.

So the core Legion choices are not entirely awful, and Tzaangor certainly make them better. How much of the concern stems from not getting new power armored stuff, and how much of it is a legitimate gripe with the rules?

This is not a unique problem to just thousand sons. Death Guard would rather use pox walkers and chaos would rather use cultists. What are chaos space marines? Space marines would rather use guardsman. Everyone has their iconic unit replaced by cheaper bodies that fulfill a similar role. Why buy expensive units that fill niche roles when I can buy 3 units that can perform similarly.

For the record, I think rubrics and scarab occult terminators aren't that bad. Just tzaangors are really good.

I know they wanted to make Tzaangor good because they were the new models added to the 40K line. I loved Tzaangors in the index as a boost to my forces.

Now they just feel mandatory, and that just turned me off of the thought. I like them, but I don't want to be compelled to take them.

I definitely agree, though, that the +2 armor save is definitely overvalued a lot. And that is probably more of the issue than Rubrics being under-represented in 1K Sons lists. Paying a lot for a stat that isn't going to get you far... definitely not going to get you further than having 3-4+ chaff bodies to do the same job :(

Ah, well.

Psychic phase, though, still kicking butt in there!

These are all my opinion though, and try not to take it as gospel.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
This is not a unique problem to just thousand sons. Death Guard would rather use pox walkers and chaos would rather use cultists. What are chaos space marines? Space marines would rather use guardsman. Everyone has their iconic unit replaced by cheaper bodies that fulfill a similar role. Why buy expensive units that fill niche roles when I can buy 3 units that can perform similarly.

For the record, I think rubrics and scarab occult terminators aren't that bad. Just tzaangors are really good.

Yes, 8th edition favors large blobs of cheap infantry over elite power armored goons. GW overvalues saves and undervalues offense. It's a mechanics issue that will be worked out over time.

Compare Thousand Sons to Grey Knights or Deathwatch. They have no chaff, there's no good way to run a pure army of either of those factions. Plus they're overcosted to hell, I wrote up a 600 point Kill Team unit today.

Would it be better to have a Codex Thousand Sons that included no chaff (or Mutalix Vortex beasts) and have the same problems as those factions? If Tzaangor were not part of the book, TS would just be using Cultists.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

Now they just feel mandatory, and that just turned me off of the thought. I like them, but I don't want to be compelled to take them.

This is true for any army that doesn't want it's elites rolled by melee.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

hazefrog wrote:
Oh you didn't hear?

Many think the T-Sons *should not* get an expanded range because it wouldn't fit the fluff. They get mad when we players point out how bare-bones our army is.



Actually hating on players who want their ranges expanded upon. If i spent too many years being that petty I might find myself falling to the forces of chaos and becoming some sort of SJW creature.

That's very disingenuous and hugely mischaracterizes the posts of others.

No there were definitely some who make it clear that the thousand sons should not get any more models because doing so would go against the fluff. Much anger there was in their postings. Maybe the hormone replacement therapy was controlling their mood?

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My only problem with, and why I didn't buy, Codex: Thousand Sons is I went in expecting Thousand Sons, not Tzeentch daemons.

Maybe I am the only idiot who hears Thousand Sons and thinks about the rogue Space Marine faction that defected during the Horus Heresy...

Cause apparently the Thousand Sons are really just Tzaangors.

But that has been my gripe, and persists to being my gripe on it. I was a good ways in converting an army to Tzeentch/1K Sons, but stopped when the first previews indicated I wouldn't be getting a lot of support for the actual traitor legion the book was named for.

Then you like 30k thousand sons not 40k.

The battle of the fang was rubrics protecting sorcerers that were spawning a gak ton of daemons.

They LOVE daemons, so I do not get the mix up here.

hazefrog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

hazefrog wrote:
Oh you didn't hear?

Many think the T-Sons *should not* get an expanded range because it wouldn't fit the fluff. They get mad when we players point out how bare-bones our army is.



Actually hating on players who want their ranges expanded upon. If i spent too many years being that petty I might find myself falling to the forces of chaos and becoming some sort of SJW creature.

That's very disingenuous and hugely mischaracterizes the posts of others.

No there were definitely some who make it clear that the thousand sons should not get any more models because doing so would go against the fluff. Much anger there was in their postings. Maybe the hormone replacement therapy was controlling their mood?

which I don't get how expanding the army with units that makes sense go against the fluff. I mean you could add new units that represents each cult. like my idea for a new hq unit would fit in as leader to a warband that belongs to the cult of knowledge. Which is called a lore seeker, they look for knowledge to expand the thousand sons libraries. They are a little bit like a grammarnazi in that they correct people if they say something that's not correct which gives them a reroll 1s aura for psychic tests. So this way we don't need magnus for it. The cult of magic in the chart that shows the structure of thousand sons and the cults is the only one that has units in it. GW could have done this intentionally so that any new models could be used specifically by one of these cults.

 sfshilo wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My only problem with, and why I didn't buy, Codex: Thousand Sons is I went in expecting Thousand Sons, not Tzeentch daemons.

Maybe I am the only idiot who hears Thousand Sons and thinks about the rogue Space Marine faction that defected during the Horus Heresy...

Cause apparently the Thousand Sons are really just Tzaangors.

But that has been my gripe, and persists to being my gripe on it. I was a good ways in converting an army to Tzeentch/1K Sons, but stopped when the first previews indicated I wouldn't be getting a lot of support for the actual traitor legion the book was named for.

Then you like 30k thousand sons not 40k.

The battle of the fang was rubrics protecting sorcerers that were spawning a gak ton of daemons.

They LOVE daemons, so I do not get the mix up here.

When most people think of the Thousand Sons in 40k, they think of the Rubric of Ahriman and the soldiers turned to dust as a consequence of that. Before this codex nobody associated the army primarily with the phrase "goat herd".

Yeah if I want to play thousand sons I want marines to be the core of my army not a token presence.

The Rubricae are absolutely fine, all things considered. Tzaangor are just more competitive. It is a relative thing. I always use two units of Rubricae and one SOT squad and do just fine.

I honestly was a little disappointed with the codex. I think it gives you the option to take too many psychic powers and it almost becomes like the psychic phase is your own little game. It isn't very interactive. I would have preferred if they'd limited non-smite powers to characters, but given the Aspiring Sorcerors a unique smite that circumvents the perils problems. It was a real missed opportunity not to add flavours of exalted sorcerors that give small local buffs.

Also they should have just given Rubricae an extra wound instead of the +1 save vs damage 1. It is much cleaner. Still keep the 5+ invulnerables.

Soulreapers should be rapid fire (this also allows you to get rid of the move and fire heavy weapon rule) and allowed in 5 man units.

CassianSol wrote:
The Rubricae are absolutely fine, all things considered. Tzaangor are just more competitive.

I'm sorry, but this is absolutely wrong.

Rubricae (and their Terminators counterparts) are intrinsically bad. They have no place in 40K 8th edition. Everything they do, someone else does it better. But these days, with soup being allowed, there's no reason to ever run Rubrics over Pink Horrors, or Scarabs over Obliterators.

Like all MEQ and TEQ, they need to go down in points (to 16-18pts, weapon included). They need a 4+ Invulnerable save (or Plasma needs to be nerfed). As for Scarabs, they need to have movement 5" (they're wearing Tartaros armors damn it !), 3 attacks, a 4+ Invulnerable save and a price cut (34pts all-inc seems fine).

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah if I want to play thousand sons I want marines to be the core of my army not a token presence.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect cult troops to outnumber marines in any Chaos army, because they outnumber them in the 40k universe. Most of the stories I've read have thousands of cult troops or daemons supported by a hundred or fewer marines.
I do prefer to see Thousand Sons armies that are mostly power armour, because they are iconic, but I don't think we can legitimately claim that those who have a mostly cult army are doing something unfluffy.

I can totally see where people are coming from, but I've always imagined the Thousand Sons as completely shattered as a legion into roving bands controlled by rival sorcerers. So whilst they have the Rubics that they seized control off by attacking other bands or bargaining with other ex-members of the legion, I like that most of their following is made of of new renegade marines exposed to the ravages of Tzeench, gribbly spawns, cavorting horrors, rampaging defilers etc.

It's only the attempts to bring the Primarchs back into the story which is forcing every legion back into the pre-heresy shape!
Similarly it would be weird if they tried to make a mono-Emperors Children codex when they don't operate as a legion anymore.

 sfshilo wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My only problem with, and why I didn't buy, Codex: Thousand Sons is I went in expecting Thousand Sons, not Tzeentch daemons.

Maybe I am the only idiot who hears Thousand Sons and thinks about the rogue Space Marine faction that defected during the Horus Heresy...

Cause apparently the Thousand Sons are really just Tzaangors.

But that has been my gripe, and persists to being my gripe on it. I was a good ways in converting an army to Tzeentch/1K Sons, but stopped when the first previews indicated I wouldn't be getting a lot of support for the actual traitor legion the book was named for.

Then you like 30k thousand sons not 40k.

The battle of the fang was rubrics protecting sorcerers that were spawning a gak ton of daemons.

They LOVE daemons, so I do not get the mix up here.

The only demon I remember from Battle of the Fang is Magnus.

 corpuschain wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah if I want to play thousand sons I want marines to be the core of my army not a token presence.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect cult troops to outnumber marines in any Chaos army, because they outnumber them in the 40k universe. Most of the stories I've read have thousands of cult troops or daemons supported by a hundred or fewer marines.
I do prefer to see Thousand Sons armies that are mostly power armour, because they are iconic, but I don't think we can legitimately claim that those who have a mostly cult army are doing something unfluffy.

I wasn't even close to implying people using cultists were doing anything wrong don't know where that came from?

My point was if I want the core to be rubrics I should be able to do that without gimping myself doing it.

T-sons army player here and been playing them every week since their launch. They are fun and interesting but they lack a few things.
First of all magnus is just hot garbage now, not even worth taking because of his nerf to saves, smite, and with smite targeting the closest enemy, he is the easist and weakest lord of war in the game. Unless he gets the ability to put his smite were ever he wants, he is shelved. I ended up swapping him out for 3 preds way better choice.

As mentioned i run 3 pred and keep an exalted sorcerer next to them. Since the sorcerer gives a reroll of 1s to hit, its a nasty combo to use with preds and killshot, you can hit everything on 2+ reroll aand wound on 2.

Then there are tzangors. I started running them as a massive 30 man blob, with a shamman, and a vortex beast to try and do the tzangor bomb, however after multiple uses of it, its really lack luster. Because if you deploy any way other then dawn of war, you are forced to use dark matter crystal, or webway infiltration to get them to their target, and at that point they are out of shaman support range, and vortex beast range. So their main method of buffing is now useless. While still good, being basically space marines, they are still meh when not buffed. That said overall they need a nerf because they should be better cultists not better tzengors. T should go to 3. The other issue with them is i loose more of them to moral then i do fire. I have switched to a blob of 20 supported by a daemon price now.

Which brings me to the vortex beast. This thing suffers the same problem as predators, if you take one, you are gonna need to take 2. Its going to get shot off the table, and you really need a second one to abuse its powers. Its meh in combat.

The real hidden gem of the codex though are the enlightened. I have a group of 6 of them running around with ahriman, and a shaman that when buffed auto wound on a 4+ with their bows which can be really good for harassing especially with fly, 12" movement, and a 24 inch range they have a threat of 36"

Scarab occult exist and thats about their extent, this unit needs some serious love because its currently a horrible unit to take.

Rubrics still do rubric things, could use a point reduction, but cant complain.

Ultimatly the tsons codex is pretty good. My biggest complaint is that im fielding more tzengors then i am t sons legion stuff. That and magnus needs a serious buff because currently he is a massive waste of points.

Additionally, although i know this will never happen, t sons should get access to a unique data sheet for pink horrors, screamers, and flamers that all have the t sons key word since lore wise they have always utilized daemons for work and help even during the heresy, although they did not know they were daemons at the time, but it would be really fun and fluffy to have pink horrors and rubrics. And it would synergize well with the vortex beast.

hobojebus wrote:


My point was if I want the core to be rubrics I should be able to do that without gimping myself doing it.

And you can. You just can't take ALL rubrics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

First of all magnus is just hot garbage now, not even worth taking because of his nerf to saves... ...I ended up swapping him out for 3 preds way better choice.

I think about Magnus often and I feel like this is a short sighted analysis of him.

Previously if you lost first turn you still had his reroll ones to invuln, which is great, but in reality was only an 8% advantage. It does take him from 27.6 LC shots to kill down to 23, but then you're betting on not rolling a lot of 2s and 3s. Those same 23 LC shots would cause 29 wounds to predators or easily all three. So if you have AC/LC preds you paid 540 for those to die horribly and Magnus is 100 cheaper than that and survives. You even recognize preds getting shot off below.

My gut is that people fear Magnus dying turn 1 more than it happens. If he survives you can heal, give him -1 to hit, and get his invuln up. You could even gamble on making him T8 with boon.

Which brings me to the vortex beast... ...Its meh in combat.

Yea, a bit. If you have Diabolic Strength and Prescience to spare on it and use it to buff its' own AP then you get 15 S9 AP2 attacks hitting on 3s. As with anything TS you get out what you put it. On it's own the mortal wound bubble is super handy and 14 wounds plus self heal helps keep it around.

I have only gotten in a couple of games with the new dex though I really like it and typically go with a couple of squads of 10 Rubrics and at least one unit of SOTs. I have used at least one unit if foot tzangoors 20+ and think they have a great presence in the army and used them in 7th as well. I don't have any disc riding Tzangoors (Take that back I did get a shaman) and not sure I am right now. I throw in some Preds, maybe a Helbrute.

I realize I could probably do better if I use less Rubrics and more Tzangoors even disc riding though I like my Rubrics and it has not effected my enjoyment of the army or games I have played. I do plan on a MVB to buff my Tzangoors and SOTs as needed.

I would like to see the range expanded as well though have a lot I still need to paint, lol, so not in a hurry. I do plan on some spawn and then toying around with Demons for summoning rather than detachment even though that is against popular opinion.

I was able to make great use of our stratagems, spells and such to hold my own though I would probably get owned if I went to my local GW for pick up games (a lot do to my inexperience with 8th as well) Both games were very challenging and fun for both players (best buds of course) and myself playing against my eldar buddy and Dark Angel Buddy, both texting me later to say they cant wait to throw down again and my Eldar Buddy screaming new Rivalry as we "Forge a Narrative" about the Black Library.

We like to win though play fluffy lists and usually don't bring multiple of best unit, as long as it s challenging both players typically have fun.. A lot of what you think about the codex will likely depend upon your group.

It will be interesting to see what Chapter Approved does. The lack of 1000 Sons at competitive events (as well as other specialist factions) despite popularity has got to be saying something.

I asked Reece a few months back "how come we never see 1k sons in FLG BRs?", "Is the Army that Bad"? he said no that they would love to feature and play 1k sons they just don't have a complete army in the studio of shop.. (That might say something also)

The problem withagnus is if you don't go turn one, he is dead. Magnus is a one trick pony. You run in do as much damage as you can, and then watch him die. This is because he only has a 4++ and T7 that's not that impressive, in fact it's really weak. You then need to spend Weaver's of fate on him to get him.to 3++ and glamor for a -1 to hit which is a waste because it's much more useful on other unit. Then on the enemy turn, everything points and him and blasts him off the table. I have run him about a dozen times and only once did he ever make his points back. He is just a really crappy unit because he is a massive target with no survivability.

With the vortex yeah you can do that, but it's so much more valuable to use diabolic str on a Daemon price to have him just shread anything he is in combat with.

Like I said the vortex beast is ok, but it suffers the same problem a pred does, I'd you take one, you need to take two and at that point you might as well take 3 to buff the crap outta everything. I have not tried it with three but I can see it being really funny.

hobojebus wrote:

 corpuschain wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah if I want to play thousand sons I want marines to be the core of my army not a token presence.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect cult troops to outnumber marines in any Chaos army, because they outnumber them in the 40k universe. Most of the stories I've read have thousands of cult troops or daemons supported by a hundred or fewer marines.
I do prefer to see Thousand Sons armies that are mostly power armour, because they are iconic, but I don't think we can legitimately claim that those who have a mostly cult army are doing something unfluffy.

I wasn't even close to implying people using cultists were doing anything wrong don't know where that came from?

My point was if I want the core to be rubrics I should be able to do that without gimping myself doing it.

Sorry, my mistake. I always think about things from a fluff perspective and rarely obey codex restrictions, so I was on a completely different (metaphorical) page to you!

 Backspacehacker wrote:
. Like I said the vortex beast is ok, but it suffers the same problem a pred does, I'd you take one, you need to take two and at that point you might as well take 3 to buff the crap outta everything. I have not tried it with three but I can see it being really funny.

It is a bit pricey for me to take two though I hear you every edition there are multiple units (Vehicles MCs) that will do better in twos.