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 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How much are reapers per model now? Because it should be like 45 or 50 to be fair.

They went up 7 points. It's on the lower end of what I expected. They almost have no need for screen now though so a net win for the eldar.

There are still plenty of armies that can be in your face turn 1. I'd even be willing to pop a heldrake into my list if it went that direction.

I appreciate the clarification on first turn 'boots on the ground', but how did they leave out the question of transports? Even ITC has declared that they need guidance from GW on the matter.

And power level? Really? If I'm playing with points, why can't I use points?

Dark Talons were nerfed into the ground hard. +40 pts for something that was only slightly 'better' than the 175 pt Nephilim fighter.

 BBAP wrote:

fresus wrote:
However, it completely kills fluffy Ynnari lists.

... in Matched Play. You can do as you please in Open and Narrative.

Which means in practice fluffy unnari lists are dead.

Tournament rules are de facto standard for every game. Certainly spending any money on anything not legal in tournament game is fool's errand as you are going to be forced to beg for excemption for every game.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How much are reapers per model now? Because it should be like 45 or 50 to be fair.

They went up 7 points. It's on the lower end of what I expected. They almost have no need for screen now though so a net win for the eldar.

There are still plenty of armies that can be in your face turn 1. I'd even be willing to pop a heldrake into my list if it went that direction.

Then bring a hell drake - I'm sure eldar can handle that without a screen.

ERJAK wrote:
It's not gone, per se. It's a suggestion, not a rule. It honestly depends on community reaction. I do know that if it does go down to 3 of the same datasheet I have to soup my lists way harder now.

Adoption by events depends on community reaction, which is to say whatever's most conducive to the continued profitability of the event - which makes me wonder, who's the majority here? Is it spammers, or is it people who pay dollaru to attend events only to come a cropper against spammers?

Also Troops and Transports are exempt from the restriction, so more Repressors and Battle Sisters wouldn't hurt. As far as souping harder goes I honestly don't see why people would have a problem with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Tournament rules are de facto standard for every game.

Says who?

 BBAP wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
It's not gone, per se. It's a suggestion, not a rule. It honestly depends on community reaction. I do know that if it does go down to 3 of the same datasheet I have to soup my lists way harder now.

Adoption by events depends on community reaction, which is to say whatever's most conducive to the continued profitability of the event - which makes me wonder, who's the majority here? Is it spammers, or is it people who pay dollaru to attend events only to come a cropper against spammers?

Also Troops and Transports are exempt from the restriction, so more Repressors and Battle Sisters wouldn't hurt. As far as souping harder goes I honestly don't see why people would have a problem with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Tournament rules are de facto standard for every game.

Says who?

It absolutely would hurt. There are better options in every other imperium army available than wasting points on battle sisters inside transports. A supreme command of custodes jetbikes is a more points efficient replacement. I wanted to play sisters of battle as purely as possible, but this change makes that non-viable, so soup it is. I mean...foot sisters are little bit better, but that was never a very good list to begin with.

And if GW would make more than 2 units useful in any codex, they'd get less spam.

Thankfully squadrons are not effected by the anti spam rule. I would have hated a limitation of only three dudes on ork buggies, artillery, kanz or drukhari talos.

I cannot spam min squads of reavers now, but that's not too bad since I'm enjoying fielding 2x3 and 1x12 squads.

I don't have to sell models because the new rules made them too many in regular games, that's all that matters.

Soups and deep strike are nerfed? Good. Those nerfs are basically the only things I wanted, other than a price hike for some undercosted units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Then bring a hell drake - I'm sure eldar can handle that without a screen.

I'm sure they can, too, but not the subsequent ripple effect of losing shooting from two or three units turn 1 and possibly turn 2.

 Blackie wrote:
Thankfully squadrons are not effected by the anti spam rule. I would have hated a limitation of only three dudes on ork buggies, artillery, kanz or drukhari talos.

I cannot spam min squads of reavers now, but that's not too bad since I'm enjoying fielding 2x3 and 1x12 squads.

I don't have to sell models because the new rules made them too many in regular games, that's all that matters.

Soups and deep strike are nerfed? Good. Those nerfs are basically the only things I wanted, other than a price hike for some undercosted units.

Soups aren't really nerfed tho. Most Soup lists were run detachment by detachment anyway. Ynnari got a little worse but imperium and chaos are largely unnaffected. And the squadron rule bypassing the unit restriction means that guard weren't touched either.

 BBAP wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Tournament rules are de facto standard for every game.

Says who?

Matched play rules are indeed the standard where I play. Narrative/open play do exist, but are always planned in advance, and most people aren't interested in anything but matched play (even the ones who play non competitive lists).
So at least for me, it will be much more difficult to play Ynnari.

It's also that with each consecutive FAQ, Ynnari gets stripped of everything it has in an attempt to balance the broken combos that can be done with its rules. Now the army is all but dead in matched play (what's the point if you can't combine Aeldari units?), expect for the good old Yvraine + DR/SS combo which is still pretty good, so nothing has been fixed.
GW really doesn't know what to do with Ynnari.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Then bring a hell drake - I'm sure eldar can handle that without a screen.

I'm sure they can, too, but not the subsequent ripple effect of losing shooting from two or three units turn 1 and possibly turn 2.

That would be a poorly deployed eldar to allow 2-3 units to get assaulted by a single flyer.

 Xenomancers wrote:

That would be a poorly deployed eldar to allow 2-3 units to get assaulted by a single flyer.

As you said - they have no screen. A couple wave serpents aren't blocking that much space.

 Xenomancers wrote:
DS spears was just a defensive mechanic - it actually nerfed their offensive potential by making your first charge move more difficult - they move freaking 16 - quicken is all you need to charge their back line.

They did manage to nerf gardians though - which was totally warranted.

I'm sorry, I must have missed it, how were guardians nerfed?

PiñaColada wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
DS spears was just a defensive mechanic - it actually nerfed their offensive potential by making your first charge move more difficult - they move freaking 16 - quicken is all you need to charge their back line.

They did manage to nerf gardians though - which was totally warranted.

I'm sorry, I must have missed it, how were guardians nerfed?

Their guns are 12 inch range and they can't deepstrike out of their deployment zone until turn 2. Huge nerf.

Pretty happy with the FAQs overall. Nerfed alpha strikes (which people complained about). Nerfed spam (which people complained about) while still retaining squadron rule to help fluffy lists, which is great. Nerfed smite spam (which people complained about) while excluding Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, which is great. Nerfed lots of the annoying spam lists you saw at tournaments like poxwalker spam, tide of traitors spam, dark reaper spam, hive tyrant spam. All great things.

From an IG perspective, commissar and lord commissar costs got cut in half and "summary execution" is finally an OPTION, not an obligation. Makes commissars playable. Exciting. Relic of Lost Cadia finally took that huge nerf. That's okay. Scions deep striking got a nerf, but that's okay too.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That would be a poorly deployed eldar to allow 2-3 units to get assaulted by a single flyer.

As you said - they have no screen. A couple wave serpents aren't blocking that much space.

We are only talking about a few ranger units - I don't think it was preventing your hell drake from getting in there in the first place. I'm just saying - if they are deploying that close together it's their own fault for 1 unit assaulting more than 1 unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Pretty happy with the FAQs overall. Nerfed alpha strikes (which people complained about). Nerfed spam (which people complained about) while still retaining squadron rule to help fluffy lists, which is great. Nerfed smite spam (which people complained about) while excluding Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, which is great. Nerfed lots of the annoying spam lists you saw at tournaments like poxwalker spam, tide of traitors spam, dark reaper spam, hive tyrant spam. All great things.

From an IG perspective, commissar and lord commissar costs got cut in half and "summary execution" is finally an OPTION, not an obligation. Makes commissars playable. Exciting. Relic of Lost Cadia finally took that huge nerf. That's okay. Scions deep striking got a nerf, but that's okay too.

Ofc you like the FAQ - tau and AM are the most benifited by it. Floating in command points like crazy and most things can't even get into assault with you turn 1 anymore. Most importantly - you can still alpha strike hard with Russ/manticores/bassalisk/ect.

 Xenomancers wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
DS spears was just a defensive mechanic - it actually nerfed their offensive potential by making your first charge move more difficult - they move freaking 16 - quicken is all you need to charge their back line.

They did manage to nerf gardians though - which was totally warranted.

I'm sorry, I must have missed it, how were guardians nerfed?

Their guns are 12 inch range and they can't deepstrike out of their deployment zone until turn 2. Huge nerf.

Oh, yeah. Duh. I feel dumb now haha

 BBAP wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
It fixes Ynnari soup a bit, and soup using index stuff that was not giving up much. But overall does not solve the larger issues with soup.

What are these "larger issues" with soup? I've been playing a "soup" army off and on since, like, 4th Edition thanks to Codex DH and WH. I don't see the big deal at all - in fact I quite like the dynamism you get from mixing and matching different factions. Makes things less boring

EDIT: lol spam is gone huehuehue

EDIT2: lol flyrants are now 190pts base huehuehue

The fact that there is no downside to using it. Mono-faction is a self nerf in armies that can soup.
The use of IG as a CP battery for elite factions powerful stratagems.

ERJAK wrote:
It absolutely would hurt. There are better options in every other imperium army available

The same could be said of, like, every slot in the SoB index though. Sisters are cheap compared to other PA Troops, even if you tool them up for bear and give them bawkses to ride around in. They also get an extra action every turn, plus a couple more if you suicide your Characters. 30pt Hospitallers who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag can run into a unit of Berzerkers and win you an extra shooting phase.

A supreme command of custodes jetbikes is a more points efficient replacement.

Don't have the Custodes Codex, but considering how hard Custodes players complain about their army (and how few Custodes players there seem to be) I'm not sure if I believe this.

I wanted to play sisters of battle as purely as possible, but this change makes that non-viable, so soup it is. I mean...foot sisters are little bit better, but that was never a very good list to begin with.

Foot Sisters aren't really buffed by this FAQ in any appreciable way, as far as I can see. You can cram in a few more ComPoints with Battalions but that's about it. No Foot Sisters army is going to be packing 12 Heavy Bolters in their Troops slots all of a sudden.

As for soup being the best way to play Sisters... ever has it been thus, right? In 5th everyone had IST Melta death-rides or Plasma-donkeys in their Troops slots, or maybe an HQ and a unit of Seraphim in their Guard army or something.

And if GW would make more than 2 units useful in any codex, they'd get less spam.

There are plenty of perfectly serviceable units in the Nids Codex, yet people spam Flyrants because it's an easy way to put pressure on an opponent with minimal effort. Crumby units aren't the reason for spam (although a few less in each book wouldn't hurt) - the lack of comp-restrictions on stuff that really should be comp-restricted is the reason for spam.

 BBAP wrote:

There are plenty of perfectly serviceable units in the Nids Codex, yet people spam Flyrants because it's an easy way to put pressure on an opponent with minimal effort. Crumby units aren't the reason for spam (although a few less in each book wouldn't hurt) - the lack of comp-restrictions on stuff that really should be comp-restricted is the reason for spam.

Reason to spam is because GW can't make units balanced to save their lives. If GW made rules like professionals these restrictions wouldn't be needed. As it is GW only managed to make balance worse increasing gap between top and bottom armies. GJ.

fresus wrote:
Matched play rules are indeed the standard where I play. Narrative/open play do exist, but are always planned in advance, and most people aren't interested in anything but matched play (even the ones who play non competitive lists).
So at least for me, it will be much more difficult to play Ynnari.

So organise some games in advance, then. If your list is "follows the lore" fluffy, and not "7th Edition Taudar best buds 4 lyf" fluffy I can't imagine it'd be that hard. Unless your group are jerks or something, in which case... commiserat.

It's also that with each consecutive FAQ, Ynnari gets stripped of everything it has in an attempt to balance the broken combos that can be done with its rules. Now the army is all but dead in matched play (what's the point if you can't combine Aeldari units?), expect for the good old Yvraine + DR/SS combo which is still pretty good, so nothing has been fixed.
GW really doesn't know what to do with Ynnari.

The point is you can't just cram a bunch of off-faction units into a single Detachment and get free actions anymore, nor can you pick'n'mix whatever Aeldari crap you feel like taking. Now you have to pay a tax, which is either a Detachment and 1 CP, or 3 HQs of points, just to get the keyword, plus another tax on whatever units you're bringing (Dark Reapers or whatever - y'know, for fluff!). Given how powerful extra actions are these restrictions seem fair, no?

I'll agree with that last bit, to be honest. Their biggest problem from where I'm sitting is that Ynnari were conceived as a total power-creep faction at the outset, and it's difficult to see what direction you develop such a faction in other than "down".

 BBAP wrote:


There are plenty of perfectly serviceable units in the Nids Codex, yet people spam Flyrants because it's an easy way to put pressure on an opponent with minimal effort. Crumby units aren't the reason for spam (although a few less in each book wouldn't hurt) - the lack of comp-restrictions on stuff that really should be comp-restricted is the reason for spam.

Hive Tyrant is spammed because the other HQs are overpriced (and/or bad). The 20 pts nerf to the flyrant doesn't change the fact they can be spammed, since the "sheet" limit are beta rules.

GW basically did what was expected of them : instead of trying to understand why the other nids HQs are barely used, they just added 20 points to the one that is the most effective.

At the same time, their "beta rules" are a flat mega buff to gunline armies (who didn't need it), and a mega-nerf to melee armies.

 BBAP wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
It absolutely would hurt. There are better options in every other imperium army available

The same could be said of, like, every slot in the SoB index though. Sisters are cheap compared to other PA Troops, even if you tool them up for bear and give them bawkses to ride around in. They also get an extra action every turn, plus a couple more if you suicide your Characters. 30pt Hospitallers who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag can run into a unit of Berzerkers and win you an extra shooting phase.

A supreme command of custodes jetbikes is a more points efficient replacement.

Don't have the Custodes Codex, but considering how hard Custodes players complain about their army (and how few Custodes players there seem to be) I'm not sure if I believe this.

I wanted to play sisters of battle as purely as possible, but this change makes that non-viable, so soup it is. I mean...foot sisters are little bit better, but that was never a very good list to begin with.

Foot Sisters aren't really buffed by this FAQ in any appreciable way, as far as I can see. You can cram in a few more ComPoints with Battalions but that's about it. No Foot Sisters army is going to be packing 12 Heavy Bolters in their Troops slots all of a sudden.

As for soup being the best way to play Sisters... ever has it been thus, right? In 5th everyone had IST Melta death-rides or Plasma-donkeys in their Troops slots, or maybe an HQ and a unit of Seraphim in their Guard army or something.

And if GW would make more than 2 units useful in any codex, they'd get less spam.

There are plenty of perfectly serviceable units in the Nids Codex, yet people spam Flyrants because it's an easy way to put pressure on an opponent with minimal effort. Crumby units aren't the reason for spam (although a few less in each book wouldn't hurt) - the lack of comp-restrictions on stuff that really should be comp-restricted is the reason for spam.

The custodes dawn-eagle jetbike captain is one of the best indvidual units in the game. They're ridiculously prevalent at the moment. The fact that you weren't aware of that makes a lot of your input seem...less credible.

As for the troops, I more meant that the transports are a waste, the battle sisters themselves are more or less fine with the battalion change. Ultimately you'll end up with a battalion, an outrider, and a soup detachment in SoB armies now, so it's not...like...grey knights level bad but pure SoB worked before(...more or less) and now it doesn't. It's a little sad, but not like...game quittingly so.

You're also missing the forests for the trees here, they spam flyrants because they're markedly better than everything else in the codex, it's not about it being 'easier' it's about them being point for point the best options. If you want to win 'serviceable' units get left at home. It's not Matt Root's fault that GW can't point cost things correctly.

Also the reason to use Hive Tyrant is because of Alpha Strike. The actual Alpha Strike, where whole army sits in base and shoots down half the opposing army without moving an inch.

Not the Alpha Strike that a few players try to use, that includes melee and is easily defeated by a few 100 points of guardsmen.

Tyrant is save from that.

ERJAK wrote:

The custodes dawn-eagle jetbike captain is one of the best indvidual units in the game. They're ridiculously prevalent at the moment. The fact that you weren't aware of that makes a lot of your input seem...less credible.

Personally, I'm not sold on captains on jetbikes. They cost almost as much as 2 bikes and they have almost twice the wounds, but they shoot as well as one of them and fight only marginally better. I think the best way to use custodes as an allied detachment is a captain and 3x3 bikes, rather than 3-5 captains. Sure, they can't be targeted, but jetbikes are tough as hell anyway. Plus, deepstriking a unit of bikes is amazing, as is counter-charging with 3 bikes instead of just one.

But yeah, I agree, if you don't know what every unit in the game does, the input you can give is hardly meaningful.

Teschio wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

The custodes dawn-eagle jetbike captain is one of the best indvidual units in the game. They're ridiculously prevalent at the moment. The fact that you weren't aware of that makes a lot of your input seem...less credible.

Personally, I'm not sold on captains on jetbikes. They cost almost as much as 2 bikes and they have almost twice the wounds, but they shoot as well as one of them and fight only marginally better. I think the best way to use custodes as an allied detachment is a captain and 3x3 bikes, rather than 3-5 captains. Sure, they can't be targeted, but jetbikes are tough as hell anyway. Plus, deepstriking a unit of bikes is amazing, as is counter-charging with 3 bikes instead of just one.

But yeah, I agree, if you don't know what every unit in the game does, the input you can give is hardly meaningful.

3x3 bikes and the captain you're taking for the rerolls is 1000+pts total. That's not an allied detachement, that's the army. Everything ELSE is an allied detachment

And not knowing what the top tier units do when you spend enough time on the game to bother posting here, and have apparently experienced players talking about the army enough to complain about their whining is suspect. Everyone else here knows about cultists, flyrants, reapers, dark talons, Custard bikes, when someone doesn't know these basic things and talks as definitively as he does, it raises suspicion

Oh, but I guess I should just take everyone as an expert mistah 'just run a 1000+pt ally detachment, because that makes sense!' lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Pretty happy with the FAQs overall. Nerfed alpha strikes (which people complained about). Nerfed spam (which people complained about) while still retaining squadron rule to help fluffy lists, which is great. Nerfed smite spam (which people complained about) while excluding Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, which is great. Nerfed lots of the annoying spam lists you saw at tournaments like poxwalker spam, tide of traitors spam, dark reaper spam, hive tyrant spam. All great things.

From an IG perspective, commissar and lord commissar costs got cut in half and "summary execution" is finally an OPTION, not an obligation. Makes commissars playable. Exciting. Relic of Lost Cadia finally took that huge nerf. That's okay. Scions deep striking got a nerf, but that's okay too.

Ofc you like the FAQ - tau and AM are the most benifited by it. Floating in command points like crazy and most things can't even get into assault with you turn 1 anymore. Most importantly - you can still alpha strike hard with Russ/manticores/bassalisk/ect.

Tau also lost their ability to deep strike their best units (commanders) turn 1, not to mention the rest of their suits...If I played Tau, I'd definitely prefer pre-FAQ.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Pretty happy with the FAQs overall. Nerfed alpha strikes (which people complained about). Nerfed spam (which people complained about) while still retaining squadron rule to help fluffy lists, which is great. Nerfed smite spam (which people complained about) while excluding Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, which is great. Nerfed lots of the annoying spam lists you saw at tournaments like poxwalker spam, tide of traitors spam, dark reaper spam, hive tyrant spam. All great things.

From an IG perspective, commissar and lord commissar costs got cut in half and "summary execution" is finally an OPTION, not an obligation. Makes commissars playable. Exciting. Relic of Lost Cadia finally took that huge nerf. That's okay. Scions deep striking got a nerf, but that's okay too.

Ofc you like the FAQ - tau and AM are the most benifited by it. Floating in command points like crazy and most things can't even get into assault with you turn 1 anymore. Most importantly - you can still alpha strike hard with Russ/manticores/bassalisk/ect.

Tau also lost their ability to deep strike their best units (commanders) turn 1, not to mention the rest of their suits...If I played Tau, I'd definitely prefer pre-FAQ.

Not to mention their codex FAQ makes some very troubling feth consistent rules FAQ calls.
Like a reroll strat that has to be used before you roll. What the feth?

It's ok. Xenomancers has been colossally and irrationally salty about guard for centuries now. It's kind of his thing.

Ice_can wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Pretty happy with the FAQs overall. Nerfed alpha strikes (which people complained about). Nerfed spam (which people complained about) while still retaining squadron rule to help fluffy lists, which is great. Nerfed smite spam (which people complained about) while excluding Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, which is great. Nerfed lots of the annoying spam lists you saw at tournaments like poxwalker spam, tide of traitors spam, dark reaper spam, hive tyrant spam. All great things.

From an IG perspective, commissar and lord commissar costs got cut in half and "summary execution" is finally an OPTION, not an obligation. Makes commissars playable. Exciting. Relic of Lost Cadia finally took that huge nerf. That's okay. Scions deep striking got a nerf, but that's okay too.

Ofc you like the FAQ - tau and AM are the most benifited by it. Floating in command points like crazy and most things can't even get into assault with you turn 1 anymore. Most importantly - you can still alpha strike hard with Russ/manticores/bassalisk/ect.

Tau also lost their ability to deep strike their best units (commanders) turn 1, not to mention the rest of their suits...If I played Tau, I'd definitely prefer pre-FAQ.

Not to mention their codex FAQ makes some very troubling feth consistent rules FAQ calls.
Like a reroll strat that has to be used before you roll. What the feth?

That is 100% not troubling. It's reroll to wounds. Oh, I only got two hits? I won't use it. Everything hit? Definitely!

Even VotLW requires you use it before shooting.