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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Pretty happy with the FAQs overall. Nerfed alpha strikes (which people complained about). Nerfed spam (which people complained about) while still retaining squadron rule to help fluffy lists, which is great. Nerfed smite spam (which people complained about) while excluding Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, which is great. Nerfed lots of the annoying spam lists you saw at tournaments like poxwalker spam, tide of traitors spam, dark reaper spam, hive tyrant spam. All great things.

From an IG perspective, commissar and lord commissar costs got cut in half and "summary execution" is finally an OPTION, not an obligation. Makes commissars playable. Exciting. Relic of Lost Cadia finally took that huge nerf. That's okay. Scions deep striking got a nerf, but that's okay too.

Ofc you like the FAQ - tau and AM are the most benifited by it. Floating in command points like crazy and most things can't even get into assault with you turn 1 anymore. Most importantly - you can still alpha strike hard with Russ/manticores/bassalisk/ect.

Tau also lost their ability to deep strike their best units (commanders) turn 1, not to mention the rest of their suits...If I played Tau, I'd definitely prefer pre-FAQ.

Not to mention their codex FAQ makes some very troubling feth consistent rules FAQ calls.
Like a reroll strat that has to be used before you roll. What the feth?

That is 100% not troubling. It's reroll to wounds. Oh, I only got two hits? I won't use it. Everything hit? Definitely!

Even VotLW requires you use it before shooting.

Its a re-roll a single dice for number of shots, but you can comand point reroll strategum the same dice after rolling.

But grey knights have a gak smite so it doesn't matter that GW decided not to kick them while they're down. Oh wait they did with the DS and faction rules.

So, does this mean I can't use Iron warriors or Renegades with my WE?

 chimeara wrote:
So, does this mean I can't use Iron warriors or Renegades with my WE?

You can because they have Chaos and Heretic Astartes Keywords in common.

So. 6 months of Ynnari domination?
The nerfs to the list are minor to irrelevant and everything that could put up a fight got nerfed by either the 3 limit or the DS nerf.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
So, does this mean I can't use Iron warriors or Renegades with my WE?

You can because they have Chaos and Heretic Astartes Keywords in common.

Here's the thing though, if it's in different detachments it's not even a concern. They didn't fix the problem, they just made celestine and GK not worth taking.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
So, does this mean I can't use Iron warriors or Renegades with my WE?

You can because they have Chaos and Heretic Astartes Keywords in common.

Here's the thing though, if it's in different detachments it's not even a concern. They didn't fix the problem, they just made celestine and GK not worth taking.

Celestine in a Patrol Detachment with 5 girls is still perfectly worth taking thank you very much.

Free sisters stratagems, and two acts of faith for the cost of a whole 45 points? Yes please.

Quick question, how do Custodes look under the new FAQ?

 mrhappyface wrote:
Quick question, how do Custodes look under the new FAQ?

Allarus Terminators got a lot more meh with the beta reserve rules. Everything else looks great!

Ice_can wrote:

Its a re-roll a single dice for number of shots, but you can comand point reroll strategum the same dice after rolling.

You've lost me. Are you talking about Breach and Clear or something else? Because that's the only reroll strat for Tau that changed that I can see.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Quick question, how do Custodes look under the new FAQ?

Exactly the same.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Its a re-roll a single dice for number of shots, but you can comand point reroll strategum the same dice after rolling.

You've lost me. Are you talking about Breach and Clear or something else? Because that's the only reroll strat for Tau that changed that I can see.

Experimental weaponry
Use the stratagem when a borkan sept unit etc etc.you can re-roll one of the dicd used to determine the number of attacks made.
But you now have to use it before you roll the dice first.

Well that's gak. Glad I don't play Borkan.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Its a re-roll a single dice for number of shots, but you can comand point reroll strategum the same dice after rolling.

You've lost me. Are you talking about Breach and Clear or something else? Because that's the only reroll strat for Tau that changed that I can see.

Experimental weaponry
Use the stratagem when a borkan sept unit etc etc.you can re-roll one of the dicd used to determine the number of attacks made.
But you now have to use it before you roll the dice first.

Ah, ok. I think it's set that way to prevent abusing cluster rockets. CP reroll one. Borkan the other. Not the best reason to do it though since that's the only multi-D6 weapon they have iirc.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Its a re-roll a single dice for number of shots, but you can comand point reroll strategum the same dice after rolling.

You've lost me. Are you talking about Breach and Clear or something else? Because that's the only reroll strat for Tau that changed that I can see.

Experimental weaponry
Use the stratagem when a borkan sept unit etc etc.you can re-roll one of the dicd used to determine the number of attacks made.
But you now have to use it before you roll the dice first.

Ah, ok. I think it's set that way to prevent abusing cluster rockets. CP reroll one. Borkan the other. Not the best reason to do it though since that's the only multi-D6 weapon they have iirc.

Except thats the one thing it doesn't stop.
You can still do exactly what you said and in fact are more likely to do so as the only weapon its worth using on is cluster rockets now.
Atleast the oldway it made sence to use it on another suit/weapon now it may aswell be cold cluster rocket strategum.

Ice_can wrote:

Except thats the one thing it doesn't stop.
You can still do exactly what you said and in fact are more likely to do so as the only weapon its worth using on is cluster rockets now.
Atleast the oldway it made sence to use it on another suit/weapon now it may aswell be cold cluster rocket strategum.

Yea, i'm not saying it was a good idea. Only other thing I can think of is they didn't want two CP type rerolls easily accessible. It's certainly something i'd petition them on.

 Ordana wrote:
So. 6 months of Ynnari domination?
The nerfs to the list are minor to irrelevant and everything that could put up a fight got nerfed by either the 3 limit or the DS nerf.

9 more points for each dark reaper is irrelevant? The craftworlds guy I know had his list go up by like 250 points.

I think the big winners in this FAQ are Guard and Necrons. The former has been discussed at length, but the latter got buffed in ways people who don't play the army don't realize; the biggest weakness competitive Necrons have is the lack of any scout move to push out of the deployment zone. With turn 1 deep strikes no longer an issue scarabs will be able to do the job of screening just fine.

Y'know, in fairness I'm not at all a tournament player so this really doesn't affect me, but my biggest thing with the whole 3 uses of the same datasheet thing is if you don't like the rule, don't go to tournaments that use it

Seriously, that entire table is just guidelines. They aren't set rules, they certainly aren't matched play rules, they are tournament guidelines, and TOs are free to alter them or just bot use them, a fact GW has gone out of their way to stress over and over again. Tournaments rely on people coming to play for them to exist and make money. Don't like the rule, don't go to tournaments that use it. Enough people stop coming, tournaments will stop using it, and GW may well nix it when it comes time for another FAQ.

Ah, ok. I think it's set that way to prevent abusing cluster rockets. CP reroll one. Borkan the other. Not the best reason to do it though since that's the only multi-D6 weapon they have iirc.

Oddly, this is the third time I've seen cluster rockets referenced in regards to the Borkan strat nerf. Even at the peak of usefulness, I'm not sure I'd call adding 10 S5 shots (1s-->6s) abusive. Maybe they wanted to address Y'Vahras with their 3d6 flamer? I'm still not sure why the strat required any attention at all, much less a huge kick in the nuts in terms of effectiveness. It was already far more limited than the 1CP reroll everyone gets. Confusing.

9 more points for each dark reaper is irrelevant?

It's 7. So if you have 10 reapers you have to throw away 2 and you're ok.

I made a quick comic strip about the CSM Chosen losing the ability to have a pair of lighting claws.

MilkmanAl wrote:

Ah, ok. I think it's set that way to prevent abusing cluster rockets. CP reroll one. Borkan the other. Not the best reason to do it though since that's the only multi-D6 weapon they have iirc.

Oddly, this is the third time I've seen cluster rockets referenced in regards to the Borkan strat nerf. Even at the peak of usefulness, I'm not sure I'd call adding 10 S5 shots (1s-->6s) abusive. Maybe they wanted to address Y'Vahras with their 3d6 flamer? I'm still not sure why the strat required any attention at all, much less a huge kick in the nuts in terms of effectiveness. It was already far more limited than the 1CP reroll everyone gets. Confusing.

I think everyone missed the strategic importance of having a stratagem that lets you reroll your template dice and does not cost you the more generic and more powerful command reroll for the shooting phase.

So yeah... there's still a lot of strength to that stratagem as FAQ'd, but it is objectively weaker if you planned to use the command reroll specifically on that die to begin with. Not pointing at your post specifically, but more the conversation regarding how bad the Borkan strat after the FAQ. In the end, it becomes a second command reroll that you have to pay before you know. Still decent, just not an on-demand extra command reroll for a specific task.

 Shadenuat wrote:

9 more points for each dark reaper is irrelevant?

It's 7. So if you have 10 reapers you have to throw away 2 and you're ok.

And that's 20%. You can try to twist it how you want, but a 20% reduction in strength is no joke.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:

9 more points for each dark reaper is irrelevant?

It's 7. So if you have 10 reapers you have to throw away 2 and you're ok.

And that's 20%. You can try to twist it how you want, but a 20% reduction in strength is no joke.

It's a good start. They needed 50% cut in firepower. Although 20% cut in durability and firepower is closer than I originally though. I still think they are 45-50 ppm models as long as forewarned exists.

Honestly I thought the new rules were quite sensible, and it saddens me as a fan of the hobby to see so much vitriol hurled at a company which at the end of the day is just trying to make us all happy.

Elite armies were concerned about CP, so they got some extra. Some people were concerned with spam or soup, and GW came up with some evenhanded fixes.

Top tier competitive codexes may have to work a little harder to keep their position in the rankings, but at the end of the day that's what a good tactical experience is all about.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
So, does this mean I can't use Iron warriors or Renegades with my WE?

You can because they have Chaos and Heretic Astartes Keywords in common.

I see, so by that I can still use the Khorne daemons because they share the Khorne faction keyword with the WE.

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:
Honestly I thought the new rules were quite sensible, and it saddens me as a fan of the hobby to see so much vitriol hurled at a company which at the end of the day is just trying to make us all happy.

Elite armies were concerned about CP, so they got some extra. Some people were concerned with spam or soup, and GW came up with some evenhanded fixes.

Top tier competitive codexes may have to work a little harder to keep their position in the rankings, but at the end of the day that's what a good tactical experience is all about.

They buffed Guard and nerfed space marine armies. Wtf are you on about?

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:
Honestly I thought the new rules were quite sensible, and it saddens me as a fan of the hobby to see so much vitriol hurled at a company which at the end of the day is just trying to make us all happy.

Elite armies were concerned about CP, so they got some extra. Some people were concerned with spam or soup, and GW came up with some evenhanded fixes.

Top tier competitive codexes may have to work a little harder to keep their position in the rankings, but at the end of the day that's what a good tactical experience is all about.

There are still a ton of units throwing way too much dakka for their price point and many other units that don't do nearly enough for their cost.

I think the FAQ makes it clear that GW has never seen a problem with soup armies, only soup detachments. So my army of Dark Angels Air Wing Detachment, Sisters Outrider Detachment, and Guard Spearhead Detachment is still perfectly legal. Everyone considers this list "soup" and it's untouched by the FAQ. I personally never ran a soup detachment before, I guess this was big with Celestine?

I also think the turn 1 deep strike change is going to be very good for the game, and I even have a very assulty BA army. For one it helps tanks that can't fall out of combat and shoot immensely, and they really needed that one turn to try and adjust. It allows armies with psykers who lose the first turn to buff up before the inevitable charge - yes this is a nerf of sorts to the charging unit, but honestly, getting lucky with getting the first turn and assaulting your opponents whole line, potentially shutting down multiple units before the player even gets a turn never felt like that fell within the spirit of the game. And finally the charging units themselves weren't nerfed directly, they're still as powerful as ever, and their turn 2 charge will have just as much oomph as their turn 1 would have. For me the biggest nerf is the power rating balance thing, it really takes away ones ability to have almost a full powerhouse assaulting army in deep strike with just enough cheap chaff units to meet the 50% requirement.

As an eldar player first and foremost I'm breathing a sigh of relief, with the exception of the basic warlock, that was just cruel. Yes farseers were too cheap and 10 points is a scratch, and the spiritseer has a full-powered smite and a relevant aura, 45 points was way too cheap. But the lowly warlock is 2 wounds, no relevant buff, and a baby smite, it didn't deserve the same 20 point hike. Oddly all the skyrunner variants are untouched, thankfully. I never spammed reapers, but I almost always run one full 10-man squad. The 70 point tax isn't nothing, but it isn't enough where I've abandoned the full 10, or abandoned any of my lists with them in it. I just had to make a few minor tweaks. Sorry Martel lol.

Yeah just connected the dots on deep striking guardian blob nerf, this is now my biggest complaint. Rangers are OK, but guardians are really where you want to be. I'm not sure the best way to run eldar troops now. Start looking at asurmen/DA foot slog? Or just hope battle focus gets the job done Lol? I mean shifting your deep strike to turn 2 isn't the end of the world for them I suppose. What it most affects are the other parts of the army, you'll need to design it in such a way to be able to defend for much longer before your hammer comes down.

lets see.. if the beta rules and the organized play suggestions catch on outside of tournaments and into general play in my region...

my Dedicated Tempestus list plan is dead in the water. glad i didn't purchase for that.

My inquisitorial plan is... welp, unchanged. its just even less viable now than it already was.

my flight of angels army list i picked up more Seraphim for would also have it's wings clipped and thats before the DS beta change without checking if it would have any effect on my playstyle...

And my general sisters list idea took the least panning, but considering i had planned for 4 squads of dominions at least with different weapon options and was thinking of setting up for more.. im still not happy, unless you count dodging the cost, but at least thst time i have a second string option.

at least they didn't touch my transport numbers, but really GW? and i have to ask, exactly who does this "battle Brother" beta rule even effect as a whole that was considered a problem? I just kind of figured that since there's detachment benefits abound by now, people would be shooting for those anyway, but i would like to know what lists forced this, that has also made it so piecemeal imperial factions now have to queue up as unique detachments should this go live.

so yeah, first pass on the beta rules and down, and i have Little nice to say about it, but im also inexperienced in general on this one.