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Can I just say OP, although you didn't encourage positivity. I appreciate this threads intention.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I made a quick comic strip about the CSM Chosen losing the ability to have a pair of lighting claws.

Spoiler:

This was actually great! Exalted!

 peteralmo wrote:

I also think the turn 1 deep strike change is going to be very good for the game, and I even have a very assulty BA army. For one it helps tanks that can't fall out of combat and shoot immensely, and they really needed that one turn to try and adjust. It allows armies with psykers who lose the first turn to buff up before the inevitable charge - yes this is a nerf of sorts to the charging unit, but honestly, getting lucky with getting the first turn and assaulting your opponents whole line, potentially shutting down multiple units before the player even gets a turn never felt like that fell within the spirit of the game. And finally the charging units themselves weren't nerfed directly, they're still as powerful as ever, and their turn 2 charge will have just as much oomph as their turn 1 would have. For me the biggest nerf is the power rating balance thing, it really takes away ones ability to have almost a full powerhouse assaulting army in deep strike with just enough cheap chaff units to meet the 50% requirement.

I'm going to pick your brain, because you're the first person to put up a full throated defense of the deepstriking change.

Let's say Eldar vs BA.

If Eldar goes first they let loose with the Reapers. Then BA doesn't DS. Next turn Eldar goes Reaper happy again. Then BA uses DS and gets hit by forewarned.
The net result is BA get shoot an extra round.

Now, if I were making a BA list i'd be sure everything I have on the table is premium anti-infantry Dakka so that the Reapers die, but the back line needs to be able to deal with SS as well.

It seems...rough...

Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And that's 20%. You can try to twist it how you want, but a 20% reduction in strength is no joke.

I would have agreed 20% is a lot especially since against say 1W cheap blobs or T8 Reapers are not as scary, but with Ynnari&Alaitoc it's not that simple.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:

I also think the turn 1 deep strike change is going to be very good for the game, and I even have a very assulty BA army. For one it helps tanks that can't fall out of combat and shoot immensely, and they really needed that one turn to try and adjust. It allows armies with psykers who lose the first turn to buff up before the inevitable charge - yes this is a nerf of sorts to the charging unit, but honestly, getting lucky with getting the first turn and assaulting your opponents whole line, potentially shutting down multiple units before the player even gets a turn never felt like that fell within the spirit of the game. And finally the charging units themselves weren't nerfed directly, they're still as powerful as ever, and their turn 2 charge will have just as much oomph as their turn 1 would have. For me the biggest nerf is the power rating balance thing, it really takes away ones ability to have almost a full powerhouse assaulting army in deep strike with just enough cheap chaff units to meet the 50% requirement.

I'm going to pick your brain, because you're the first person to put up a full throated defense of the deepstriking change.

Let's say Eldar vs BA.

If Eldar goes first they let loose with the Reapers. Then BA doesn't DS. Next turn Eldar goes Reaper happy again. Then BA uses DS and gets hit by forewarned.
The net result is BA get shoot an extra round.

Now, if I were making a BA list i'd be sure everything I have on the table is premium anti-infantry Dakka so that the Reapers die, but the back line needs to be able to deal with SS as well.

It seems...rough...

You're coming up with singular examples to counter an overall discussion. Of course some armies will get hit harder than others by this rule, are you expecting to be unable to find a scenario where a rule change does not hurt anyone?
I play an obliterator heavy chaos soup with deepstriking DPs and trees. And it sucks that I now have to wait a turn to gain a vantage point. But my games were very dependent on turn 1, because obliterator 24" range can be negated well if I go second, because my opponents screens can move forward and limit my range to juicy targets. But if I go first I can shoot whatever I want. There's no strategy in that, its a coin-flip as to whether I dominate a game or not. The changes now are making me reconsider my list, as I will certainly lose ground by turn 2, but not against everyone if I bring the right anti-horde guns for my turn 1 shooting phase. These changes substantially impact the swingy-ness of my list, yes it makes my list worse, but now maybe my games wont be decided by who goes first.

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

How many armies could actually shut down someone else's army through deep strike though? Shooting armies have either bubblewrap or forward operators that deny deepstrike against the most valuable units. And how many assaulting armies can actually shut down your whole army on the charge, if for some reason the shooting army has decided to place all their key shooting units on the edge of their deployment in convenient charging range? Bloodletter bombs come the closest but they're 300+pts and cost 4CP.

Deepstriking bombs were the response to impregnable gunlines and now there is no good response. Fail to go first as a CC army and you're looking at 2 turns of shooting that you can't do anything about, a turn of shooting after your Deepstriking units have come down and cut through the chaff and by that point you may as well concede. And this isn't over-reacting, this is what fielding a Khorne Daemons army was like before we got the ability to get a turn 1 charge off in the Codex.

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

So you feel that we need to remove Turn1 shooting as well?

Because more-so than T1 charging, there's absolutely zero counter-play to enemy shooting; the reason Deep Strike was so valuable was because it protected your units - AND allowed them to actually get in range, especially if they were melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

How many armies could actually shut down someone else's army through deep strike though? Shooting armies have either bubblewrap or forward operators that deny deepstrike against the most valuable units. And how many assaulting armies can actually shut down your whole army on the charge, if for some reason the shooting army has decided to place all their key shooting units on the edge of their deployment in convenient charging range? Bloodletter bombs come the closest but they're 300+pts and cost 4CP.

Deepstriking bombs were the response to impregnable gunlines and now there is no good response. Fail to go first as a CC army and you're looking at 2 turns of shooting that you can't do anything about, a turn of shooting after your Deepstriking units have come down and cut through the chaff and by that point you may as well concede. And this isn't over-reacting, this is what fielding a Khorne Daemons army was like before we got the ability to get a turn 1 charge off in the Codex.

Something that someone else pointed out that I didn't think about - the gunline army now has an additional round to move its screens into place; which means your assault armies are that much further from making it into combat.

Hell, move6"+advance3" from chaff coupled with the 9"+ deep strike restriction means : you won't make it into melee with the gunline, even if you can clear 100% of the chaff with your deepstrike.

1-2-3 turns of shooting for the gunline, and no ability for the CC army to use its units. CC is dead; it was barely functional as it was, and now...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:

I also think the turn 1 deep strike change is going to be very good for the game, and I even have a very assulty BA army. For one it helps tanks that can't fall out of combat and shoot immensely, and they really needed that one turn to try and adjust. It allows armies with psykers who lose the first turn to buff up before the inevitable charge - yes this is a nerf of sorts to the charging unit, but honestly, getting lucky with getting the first turn and assaulting your opponents whole line, potentially shutting down multiple units before the player even gets a turn never felt like that fell within the spirit of the game. And finally the charging units themselves weren't nerfed directly, they're still as powerful as ever, and their turn 2 charge will have just as much oomph as their turn 1 would have. For me the biggest nerf is the power rating balance thing, it really takes away ones ability to have almost a full powerhouse assaulting army in deep strike with just enough cheap chaff units to meet the 50% requirement.

I'm going to pick your brain, because you're the first person to put up a full throated defense of the deepstriking change.

Let's say Eldar vs BA.

If Eldar goes first they let loose with the Reapers. Then BA doesn't DS. Next turn Eldar goes Reaper happy again. Then BA uses DS and gets hit by forewarned.
The net result is BA get shoot an extra round.

Now, if I were making a BA list i'd be sure everything I have on the table is premium anti-infantry Dakka so that the Reapers die, but the back line needs to be able to deal with SS as well.

It seems...rough...

It absolutely is rough, but also remember Eldar are a shooty army and they're probably still the strongest army available, they have the tools to deal with anything, so they might not have been the best example. I think there are opportunities to get creative in some of the assaulty dexes to still get turn 1 action. Let's continue with BA for a moment, yes, descent of angels strategies (easy mode) were hurt, but we still have forlorn fury and upon wings of fire, that's two stratagems that allow two premier units to start on the board and possibly get a turn 1 charge off. Now this is slightly grasping at straws because the stratagems only affect a single unit and BA murder units are built around multiple character buffs, in said scenario the character would be stranded somewhere else. Problematic to be sure. Again I think the biggest change will be how we build the non-assaulty parts of the list, they have to be built for extreme durability now, as they may have to withstand two turns of shooting before you get to strike. So maybe I'm paying extra points for camo cloaks now, etc. I think I'm OK with the change, but I'm not going to sugar coat it, assault based armies are extremely nerfed now. Understand I play BA as my third army, I consider them my fun army that I have fun with, but if they were my main force, and I was hoping to play tournaments with them I'd be completely despondent right now. GW saw that alpha striking deep striking armies were crushing the competitive scene, and I think they thought they were taking them from a 70% win rate to something like a 50% win rate, well it just ain't so. Against a good gunline, especially if they go first, those assault lists are going to have like a 10% win rate.

LoyalGuardsman69 wrote:
Honestly I thought the new rules were quite sensible, and it saddens me as a fan of the hobby to see so much vitriol hurled at a company which at the end of the day is just trying to make us all happy.

Elite armies were concerned about CP, so they got some extra. Some people were concerned with spam or soup, and GW came up with some evenhanded fixes.

Top tier competitive codexes may have to work a little harder to keep their position in the rankings, but at the end of the day that's what a good tactical experience is all about.

They mostly ignored or nerfed the weakest armies in the game, and gave a huge buff to what was already one of, if not the best army in the game in a way that encourages boring, immobile play. In an update meant to curb alpha-strike, they went on to buff one of the most toxic alpha-strike playstyle in the game.

I'm sad nothing was done to make Space Marines better. Tacticals are still not worth it, assault marines still suck royally, Terminators are still not T5, plasma is still not nurfed (admittedly this helps marines as they can use them, but also die to it just as much), Dreadnaughts will still die to a couple of heavy weapons, bolters are still useless.

I can only imagine how GK players feel as they're even worse off and didn't even get an FAQ.

 peteralmo wrote:

As an eldar player first and foremost I'm breathing a sigh of relief

Of course you are, your dark reapers get to shoot 3 times (Turn1, Turn 2 + forewarned) before the opponent can even get into charge distance of your SCREENING units.

So instead of winning 75% of your games, you will now win 100% of them. WHAT A RELIEF !

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

Ah yes kommandos and da jumping boyz needing 9" to charge were such a broooooooooken cheese right? Especially as any opponent worth anything has line of screens over real meat so first charge you'll be just wiping chaff and hope your kommandos and boyz survive the initial round.

Meanwhile IG got huge big boost by FAQ. Even Eldars were hit less than say orks were.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I'm sad nothing was done to make Space Marines better. Tacticals are still not worth it, assault marines still suck royally, Terminators are still not T5, plasma is still not nurfed (admittedly this helps marines as they can use them, but also die to it just as much), Dreadnaughts will still die to a couple of heavy weapons, bolters are still useless.

I can only imagine how GK players feel as they're even worse off and didn't even get an FAQ.

Did any individual unit get directly buffed other than commissars?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I'm sad nothing was done to make Space Marines better. Tacticals are still not worth it, assault marines still suck royally, Terminators are still not T5, plasma is still not nurfed (admittedly this helps marines as they can use them, but also die to it just as much), Dreadnaughts will still die to a couple of heavy weapons, bolters are still useless.

I can only imagine how GK players feel as they're even worse off and didn't even get an FAQ.

Did any individual unit get directly buffed other than commissars?

Chinork. One of the few bright spots for orks in the overall nerfbat of a FAQ(funny. Hadn't been hearing orks being overpowered)

I must concur that this is overhyped piece of gak. They didn't change anything really.

CC is still mostly crap, shooting is still king. I hate playing a gunline but it's the only way to roll really.

The Fall Back rule needs a big overhaul and CC needs to do way more damage to make CC even remotely comparable to shooting.

Still waiting for two of my codexes so my mind might still change based on what they're bringing to the table, but as it stands I am disappoint.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I'm sad nothing was done to make Space Marines better. Tacticals are still not worth it, assault marines still suck royally, Terminators are still not T5, plasma is still not nurfed (admittedly this helps marines as they can use them, but also die to it just as much), Dreadnaughts will still die to a couple of heavy weapons, bolters are still useless.

I can only imagine how GK players feel as they're even worse off and didn't even get an FAQ.

Did any individual unit get directly buffed other than commissars?

Well that’s one of the problems. Not exactly unexpected, it’s just an FAQ, and the things they have changed are good. But still doesn’t really help melee armies, who could do with proper cover rules, or marines who are severely lacking in some areas. GK’s especially. Glad some stuff like Pox/shield-captain/plagueburst crawler/etc. spam has been at least noticed. Whether the changes fix it for good or not will be interesting to see

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I'm sad nothing was done to make Space Marines better. Tacticals are still not worth it, assault marines still suck royally, Terminators are still not T5,

Well, terminators and assault marines were actually nerfed by the deep strike rule. They were obviously too good!

Perhaps counts as unit directly improved:

They clarified that the necron Catacomb Commandbarge does its Quantum shielding before warlord trait reducing damage by 1, that was nice.

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

I agree, and would not be salty at all about the DS rule IF they had done anything like that.

Instead, they did what they always do:

*something broken involving shooting*

GW: oh, we'd better take a measured response, nerf that specific thing, and ensure that we don't go too hard such that we make it unplayable. Our goal is balance after all!

*something broken involving melee*

GW: Oh, we'd better MAKE SURE NO ARMY CAN EVER DO ANYTHING EVEN RESEMBLING THIS EVER AGAIN, PURGE IT FROM THE GAME WITH FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!

Half range on turn 1 might help out a lot... then artillary with a billion inch range can fire while units start firing at units they just saw.

With the new deep strike rules, should just make it that anything not deep striking has to move onto the table turn 1 from your board edge. Only infiltrators and the like start deployed.

Turn 1 alpha pretty much gone for shooting and assault; going second means you’ll get to ‘alpha’ better but the guy going first gets to pick where he’s putting his units to protect against it. Everything has to move on or DS so you’re counting as moving, only long ranged stuff is going to get range, etc. Makes infiltrators and scouts matter more by letting them secure key terrain before anybody moves on. Even makes later turns matter more since turn 1 is more of a wash.

GhostRecon wrote:
With the new deep strike rules, should just make it that anything not deep striking has to move onto the table turn 1 from your board edge. Only infiltrators and the like start deployed.

Turn 1 alpha pretty much gone for shooting and assault; going second means you’ll get to ‘alpha’ better but the guy going first gets to pick where he’s putting his units to protect against it. Everything has to move on or DS so you’re counting as moving, only long ranged stuff is going to get range, etc. Makes infiltrators and scouts matter more by letting them secure key terrain before anybody moves on. Even makes later turns matter more since turn 1 is more of a wash.

Would be a pain for armies (like DE) with no infiltrators or scouts at all.

So many pages for a compound FAQ.
But 90% is wasting time to read.

Half range turn 1 sounds ace, to nerf shooting.

Really? Reapers should have been 50% nerfed? 56ppm? I call BS.

Dev ML Marines are at about the same cost as Reapers. Reapers have better firepower, but the Marines are much more survivable.

In your same example, the Devs get 2 rounds of shooting + something Auspexes anything that comes in. Sure, the Auspex isn't as powerful, but you're also losing a lot fewer of the Devs for every shot at them.

Sure, reapers have Alaitoc. If only Devs had something like Raven Guard.

Reapers do have Ynnari. That certainly helps. But the Ynnari reapers do not get Alaitoc's trait - it's one or the other.

I just don't see how a Reaper would be worth 56ppm. Pairity with ML Devs - which nobody thinks is any good - seems about right.

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

There was a lot of counterplay in list building and deployment. Set up zone where they can not deepstrike.

Except the beta rules does not stop some form of first turn charges. (Raven guards, alpha legion).

I also do not see the semqntic difference between loosing to deep strikers turn 1, and lascannons turn 1.

 Niiai wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

There was a lot of counterplay in list building and deployment. Set up zone where they can not deepstrike.

Except the beta rules does not stop some form of first turn charges. (Raven guards, alpha legion).

I also do not see the semqntic difference between loosing to deep strikers turn 1, and lascannons turn 1.

In an ideal world, you would have good terrain rules so that lascannons couldn't see/hurt/target/whatever your units.
GW's ... questionably mediocre ... terrain rules in this case are making shooting a "point and click" that it really shouldn't be.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Turn 1 charges from deepstriking where absolutely toxic.

I know people is pissed about that, and I can understand it, playing with Adeptus Custodes (And not spamming jetbikes or shield captains) I actually normally deepstriked 5 terminators +Allarus Dreadnought or 20 guardians.

But as Peteralmo said, shuting down wholle armies with that tactic with 0 counter play was horrible. I'm glad that is gone.

Now they just need to make something similar (In the sense of not allowing for more Alpha Strikes that absolutely devastate your opponent, not in the sense of doing a rule that is the same like "Not shooting units in the enemy deployment zone turn 1") with shooting!

There was a lot of counterplay in list building and deployment. Set up zone where they can not deepstrike.

Except the beta rules does not stop some form of first turn charges. (Raven guards, alpha legion).

I also do not see the semqntic difference between loosing to deep strikers turn 1, and lascannons turn 1.

In an ideal world, you would have good terrain rules so that lascannons couldn't see/hurt/target/whatever your units.
GW's ... questionably mediocre ... terrain rules in this case are making shooting a "point and click" that it really shouldn't be.

In an ideal world, people wouldn't be playing on tables that consist of two ruins and a random 'tower' in the center.

In the grim dark future of the 41st millennium there are only flat, spherical planets with one lonely tower looming over the bleak vastness of nothing. No wonder there is an objective on that tower... only thing worth taking in those dumps!