Are grey Knights officially dead?

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**Audustum**

GuardStrider wrote:
psa

That was an unfortunate way to word the question. Of course it's usable, everyone agrees with that, the question is whether it let's you leave your deployment zone.

**Jaxler**

The wording of that question makes the reply useless.

**techsoldaten**

Jaxler wrote:
The wording of that question makes the reply useless.

Actually, it says you can use Gate of Infinity. The unit is already on the battlefield, so no restrictions.

Not every answer needs to be a wikipedia entry. Lighten up.

**Ecclesiarch 616**

I dont think GK are dead but they just got smacked with the Nerf bat. It will be a uphill struggle to win. I think the CP increase is nice but it gives IG a massive advantage.

**Jaxler**

Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
I dont think GK are dead but they just got smacked with the Nerf bat. It will be a uphill struggle to win. I think the CP increase is nice but it gives IG a massive advantage.

The worst army in the game got nerfed harder than anyone else by the change. The only thing that could make us worse at this point is if they literally made us unplayable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

techsoldaten wrote:
Jaxler wrote:
The wording of that question makes the reply useless.

Actually, it says you can use Gate of Infinity. The unit is already on the battlefield, so no restrictions.

Not every answer needs to be a wikipedia entry. Lighten up.

All they said is that you can still use them, not weather or not they need to land in your deployment zone turn one.

**Bharring**

There sure are a lot of "worst army in the game"s.

GK aren't in a good spot, but they are not the worst army in the game.

**Marmatag**

This reminds me of the discussions we had around if Grey Knights could use the additional powers added in 7th edition. The community page said everyone can use them, and "they are for everybody," and went on to explicitly state other factions could use them.

However, this very community argued that it wasn't a rule, so even if the warhammer community response is accurate in what you believe it says, you won't convince everyone here that it's a valid source for rules information anyway. This solves nothing.

And Grey Knights players have every right to be salty. The idea that you can't play an elite army without AM support would be fine but then you have Custodes. Custodes really feel like a "lessons learned" army that was made after they observed Grey Knights failing badly.

Barring all of that salt, at the end of the day, it's just fundamentally not good for Grey Knights to be as bad as they are. This "Big FAQ" was an opportunity to address their horrible issues, but nothing was done. It's unfortunate but that's how it goes.

With the new deep strike rule, a lot of people I know are just shelving their miniatures until it goes away. Grey Knights were already horrible, and this makes them even worse.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

It seems the deep strike nerf was suposed to nerf deep striking shooting alpha strikes. Deep striking assault units still had the 9" hurdle to clear.. but they were an unintended causality. Maybe better described as a victim of circumstance. Deep striking assault oriented units were not a problem. Deep striking a unit that could shoot half your gak off the table was. I would ASSUME they will fix this in the official FAQ as these are still just BETA rules. Maybe some penalty to shooting after deep strike to simulate the unit gathering there bearings after being teleported/dropped from orbit.

**Marmatag**

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
It seems the deep strike nerf was suposed to nerf deep striking shooting alpha strikes. Deep striking assault units still had the 9" hurdle to clear.. but they were an unintended causality. Maybe better described as a victim of circumstance. Deep striking assault oriented units were not a problem. Deep striking a unit that could shoot half your gak off the table was. I would ASSUME they will fix this in the official FAQ as these are still just BETA rules. Maybe some penalty to shooting after deep strike to simulate the unit gathering there bearings after being teleported/dropped from orbit.

You can deep strike anywhere but when shooting, a roll of 6 is required to hit, like overwatch, and cannot be modified.

To be fair, assault units can suffer a similar penalty, where they need a 9+ on 2D6 to charge successfully, as that is incredibly difficult to achieve with any reliability.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
There sure are a lot of "worst army in the game"s.

GK aren't in a good spot, but they are not the worst army in the game.

I REALLY want to know which army you think is worse off then.

**A.T.**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I REALLY want to know which army you think is worse off then.

Inquisition is always a good starting point for these questions.

**Marmatag**

A.T. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I REALLY want to know which army you think is worse off then.
Inquisition is always a good starting point for these questions.

Is it fair to consider inquisition an army, though? Would you call assassins an army?

**Daedalus81**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
If I remember correctly Reece's comments on Grey Knights were along the lines of this "In the current meta, to play GK effectively and competitively they should be played as an allied force to another army. Probably one that can provide a screen that GK lack, such as Guard."

As I understood his comments were entirely regarding how to play GK successfully (in his opinion) in the current competitive setting.

Let's not make it something it isn't. There's no need to demonize someone who has undoubtedly done a ton of good for the game and community. It's weird that it happens at all, this singling out of one individual who happens to do a video cast every week.

The playtesters are just that. They don't tell GW what to do and I suspect their level of influence is extremely low.

If you want a real reason for the way GK are now you need look no further than Custodes. GW obviously wanted them to be the elite army of choice and their resource in terms of rules writing went to them.

I'm dragging the comments over here for people who don't want to bother and read them, because many people above misrepresented the tone and intention of Reece's comments by a good mile.

But, it may feel like a nerf but in our experience it isn't, particularly for GK. If you were relying on their baby smite to win games you were probably doing something wrong (not to be rude). We use GK loads here and rarely even cast their smite unless playing Daemons, of course.

And, in reverse, it means you are getting hit with less Smites which for an army like GK is actually a big deal as you are so low model count. It helps you more than hurts you in that scenario.

Most successful, competitive GK players use lots of Strikes, sometimes Dreadknight Grand Masters and Interceptors but not always, moderate character support, and deep strike in using things like Astra Aim and Psilencers to lay down a boatload of multi-damage firepower. Same goes with their Devastator squad (the name of which escapes me).

If you play them with a detachment of say, Astra Militarum to compliment them, they work very well together. Playing pure GK is very challenging but that is not because they aren't good, just because they (like most elite armies) lack some of the essential tools you need to succeed in the hyper-aggressive 8th ed competitive meta. You have to be able to screen effectively, and elite armies by their nature aren;t good at that unless they have a hyper-durable unit like Bullgryn, or some Nurgle units that can take a vicious punch.

Lacking that, you are just waiting to get alpha struck out of a tournament. That is why GK struggle and why they can be tough to play pure in a competitive setting.

They have amazing units and elements to them, but their 1 damage smite is certainly not a cornerstone of their competitive strategy. Their other powers are better by a mile. The baby smite is something you do when you don't have anything else to do, not something you rely on to win games.

I didn't say GK couldn't play as a stand alone army nor did I mean to imply it.

What I was trying to say was that if you want to compete at the highest level, playing ANY army pure that doesn't have effective screening mechanisms is playing on hard mode. GK are one of these.

They play just fine on their own in 8th and even competitively, in most games in a tournament, you'll do fine with pure GK. However, at the upper level of competitive play, they (and any army without effective screens) is vulnerable to alpha strike shooting/melee armies. It just is what it is, to compete you have to make some concessions in any list. I just used AM as an example, you can do it with Scouts too, or whatever.

And trust me, lol, I work my ass off to try and do whatever I can to help bring balance to the game. My (and all the play testers) efforts are just not always evident.

**A.T.**

Marmatag wrote:
Is it fair to consider inquisition an army, though?

Less and less every edition.

They were once, and stand as an example of when players really should be asking "is this faction officially dead?".

**Unit1126PLL**

Worst army is by far Corsairs, since the only way to run the army after the FAQ is to take 3 Auxiliary Support Detachments of Troops, and then run out of detachment slots.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

Marmatag wrote:
Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
It seems the deep strike nerf was suposed to nerf deep striking shooting alpha strikes. Deep striking assault units still had the 9" hurdle to clear.. but they were an unintended causality. Maybe better described as a victim of circumstance. Deep striking assault oriented units were not a problem. Deep striking a unit that could shoot half your gak off the table was. I would ASSUME they will fix this in the official FAQ as these are still just BETA rules. Maybe some penalty to shooting after deep strike to simulate the unit gathering there bearings after being teleported/dropped from orbit.

You can deep strike anywhere but when shooting, a roll of 6 is required to hit, like overwatch, and cannot be modified.

To be fair, assault units can suffer a similar penalty, where they need a 9+ on 2D6 to charge successfully, as that is incredibly difficult to achieve with any reliability.

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. Assaulting from deep strike already has a low probability (28%). A penalty for shooting should have a similar penalty. And using a mechanic in the game (overwatch) is a neat way to do it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Worst army is by far Corsairs, since the only way to run the army after the FAQ is to take 3 Auxiliary Support Detachments of Troops, and then run out of detachment slots.

Not sure how much I would want to include Index armies, but sure we can say Inquisition and Corsairs are worse off.

**Marmatag**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Worst army is by far Corsairs, since the only way to run the army after the FAQ is to take 3 Auxiliary Support Detachments of Troops, and then run out of detachment slots.

Not sure how much I would want to include Index armies, but sure we can say Inquisition and Corsairs are worse off.

Well what do you define as an army? At least 1 HQ, 1 Troop, 1 Heavy, 1 Fast Attack, and 1 Elite available? Or just HQ? Just troop?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Marmatag wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Worst army is by far Corsairs, since the only way to run the army after the FAQ is to take 3 Auxiliary Support Detachments of Troops, and then run out of detachment slots.

Not sure how much I would want to include Index armies, but sure we can say Inquisition and Corsairs are worse off.

Well what do you define as an army? At least 1 HQ, 1 Troop, 1 Heavy, 1 Fast Attack, and 1 Elite available? Or just HQ? Just troop?

Think Inquisition only has a couple of Elite choices like for last edition. Unsure how to tackle that definition but I'm of the mind that, for the most part, the Codices have helped at least.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

While I don't consider the 3 floating inquisitors an army...

Deathwatch is probably worse than GK. However, GK has their codex, and deathwatch does not, which means Deathwatch has space to move ahead.

Speaking on Inquisition, I consider GK, SoB, and Deathwatch to be "Inquisition", and the 3 free-floating Inquisitor models to be kind of homeless floating people without an army who really should be part of Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, and Xenohunters. Alternatively, because we're all short on options, we could all just be "Inquisition" together, which would probably solve a great many problems.

**A.T.**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think Inquisition only has a couple of Elite choices like for last edition.

The army has been spread far and wide, reliant on some creative souping to field what was once a single faction. But the pieces are still there.

Much of this problem comes down to GW forgetting the faction while tagging things up. GK should have been tagged <ORDO MALLEUS>, deathwatch <ORDO XENOS>, and sisters <ORDO HERETICUS>. Then all they would have needed to do is give the scions the option to trade their regiment for ORDO/quarry and tag up a few WH/DH strays like the death cultist/crusader.

Instead the inquisitors can't even be fielded in a detachment with the models they were sold boxed with. Certainly trumps 'my army is dead because I can't deepstrike assault on turn 1' and 'my army is dead because I can't get more than two saves against every wound' IMHO.

**Slayer-Fan123**

A.T. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think Inquisition only has a couple of Elite choices like for last edition.
The army has been spread far and wide, reliant on some creative souping to field what was once a single faction. But the pieces are still there.

Much of this problem comes down to GW forgetting the faction while tagging things up. GK should have been tagged <ORDO MALLEUS>, deathwatch <ORDO XENOS>, and sisters <ORDO HERETICUS>. Then all they would have needed to do is give the scions the option to trade their regiment for ORDO/quarry and tag up a few WH/DH strays like the death cultist/crusader.

Instead the inquisitors can't even be fielded in a detachment with the models they were sold boxed with. Certainly trumps 'my army is dead because I can't deepstrike assault on turn 1' and 'my army is dead because I can't get more than two saves against every wound' IMHO.

I agree that the setup for the Xhunters Codices was solid (and with the amount of units available for the militant organizations you'd have some solid choices to make several lists) but what's done is done. One thing 6th/7th did right though was how easily you could throw even a single Inquisitor in your list without breaking anything

**tneva82**

Marmatag wrote:
This reminds me of the discussions we had around if Grey Knights could use the additional powers added in 7th edition. The community page said everyone can use them, and "they are for everybody," and went on to explicitly state other factions could use them.

However, this very community argued that it wasn't a rule, so even if the warhammer community response is accurate in what you believe it says, you won't convince everyone here that it's a valid source for rules information anyway. This solves nothing.

Well seeing warhammer community themselves notes they are not official source of rule answers....They are basically suggestions hired guy from GW comes up. Unlikely even to have consulted rule developers. Most likely just looked up what rules say and gave answer based on what he thought was.

As it is assuming rule CAN be found correct answer the you make da call section here is more likely to give you official answer to rule question as the questions there go through quite a search with relevant rule quotes pulled up so answer comes strictly from the rulebook. Assuming it's unclear rule to begin with(like this) at which point it goes to HIWPI which is what warhammer community answers are as well. Certainly not official so player treating them as such is mistreating them even against their wishesh.

**djones520**

Xenomancers wrote:
Ushtarador wrote:
Just in case you didn't notice we also can't shunt or GoI in the first turn with the new FAQ.

BETA

RULES

Test it, voice your concerns to GW (using polite and reasonable language!), stop whining.

Unfortunately all tournaments will use this rule and therefore 50% of players will want to use it. Game is dead.

The GW GT next month is not using them. Games Workshop ran event.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

As of now, I don't think GK has different brotherhoods, and I don't think Deathwatch will have sub-organizations. Only the Sisters have different Orders.

Ordo Malleus, Ordo Xenos, and Ordo Hereticus would have worked far better.

**LunarSol**

A.T. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think Inquisition only has a couple of Elite choices like for last edition.
The army has been spread far and wide, reliant on some creative souping to field what was once a single faction. But the pieces are still there.

Much of this problem comes down to GW forgetting the faction while tagging things up. GK should have been tagged <ORDO MALLEUS>, deathwatch <ORDO XENOS>, and sisters <ORDO HERETICUS>. Then all they would have needed to do is give the scions the option to trade their regiment for ORDO/quarry and tag up a few WH/DH strays like the death cultist/crusader.

Instead the inquisitors can't even be fielded in a detachment with the models they were sold boxed with. Certainly trumps 'my army is dead because I can't deepstrike assault on turn 1' and 'my army is dead because I can't get more than two saves against every wound' IMHO.

This has pretty much always been my dream. Alas, I fear its never meant to be.

**Marmatag**

Deathwatch have access to Primaris and therefore will blow Grey Knights out of the water effortlessly, codex or no codex. Also they have better psykers because they get real librarians.

Death watch are strictly superior in an army vs army fight.

**greyknight12**

A.T. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think Inquisition only has a couple of Elite choices like for last edition.
The army has been spread far and wide, reliant on some creative souping to field what was once a single faction. But the pieces are still there.

Much of this problem comes down to GW forgetting the faction while tagging things up. GK should have been tagged <ORDO MALLEUS>, deathwatch <ORDO XENOS>, and sisters <ORDO HERETICUS>. Then all they would have needed to do is give the scions the option to trade their regiment for ORDO/quarry and tag up a few WH/DH strays like the death cultist/crusader.

I’ve wanted this so bad since 7th ed.

**Alcibiades**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
kind of homeless floating people.

You filled my mind with the strangest images.

**Dandelion**

greyknight12 wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think Inquisition only has a couple of Elite choices like for last edition.
The army has been spread far and wide, reliant on some creative souping to field what was once a single faction. But the pieces are still there.

Much of this problem comes down to GW forgetting the faction while tagging things up. GK should have been tagged <ORDO MALLEUS>, deathwatch <ORDO XENOS>, and sisters <ORDO HERETICUS>. Then all they would have needed to do is give the scions the option to trade their regiment for ORDO/quarry and tag up a few WH/DH strays like the death cultist/crusader.

I’ve wanted this so bad since 7th ed.

They could easily make special rules in the Imperial Agents codex to allow that kind of thing. Genestealer cults have "Brood Brothers" which lets them take AM detachments despite not having shared keywords.

Example:
Grey Knights units may take the <Ordo Malleus> keyword when sharing the same detachment as an <Ordo Malleus> inquisitor.

So just pester them a bit