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tneva82 wrote:

CassianSol wrote:
Multiple FNP saves are just tedious and slow the game (though they are far from the worst culprit.). From a playability purpose I support this change. Obviously, IH need something to compensate. Personally I'd get rid of the FNP and give them +1T on all infantry and leave it at that.

+1 to the FNP. So that ven goes from 6+++ rerolled to 5+++. Bit better than before and also faster to roll.

That's also a fine solution!

As a Craftworld Ulthwe player where our 6+++ FNP never stacked with anything, including the Farseer's ghost helm, the Hemlock's (or any other vehicle's) spirit stones, the Fortune psychic power or the Avatar's FNP ability (and thereby technically 'wasting' our faction trait on those units) I think it's fair that this FNP thing doesn't stack and it toned down.

Some units were near invulnerable and I think it takes the fun out of the game when that happens too much - even if you're the one benefitting from it.

A 6+++ FNP ability for your army, even if it 'misses' a couple of units, still makes the whole rest of your army 16.6% tougher than any of their peers.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
As a Craftworld Ulthwe player where our 6+++ FNP never stacked with anything, including the Farseer's ghost helm, the Hemlock's (or any other vehicle's) spirit stones, the Fortune psychic power or the Avatar's FNP ability (and thereby technically 'wasting' our faction trait on those units) I think it's fair that this FNP thing doesn't stack and it toned down.

Some units were near invulnerable and I think it takes the fun out of the game when that happens too much - even if you're the one benefitting from it.

Rerollable 6+++ on one model is HARDLY invulnerable. Or if it is what death guard are? They have army wide BETTER save. 5+++ > rerollable 6+++.

Remember when the benefit for selecting a chapter was solely the paint scheme?

Bharring wrote:
Orkz being on the list was sarcasm. And pointing out that we just had a bunch of changes that may have actually helped Orkz, and it's not even their codex!

The others, I've seen complaints about how bad that particular thing got nerfed.

(I'm the only one who's complained about Corsairs, but I'm fairly sure they got it worst.)

Orks with a 3 Weirdboy-cap are even more boned vs hitmods than before.

 Just Tony wrote:
Remember when the benefit for selecting a chapter was solely the paint scheme?

Good times, good times.

Bharring wrote:
Orkz being on the list was sarcasm. And pointing out that we just had a bunch of changes that may have actually helped Orkz, and it's not even their codex!

The others, I've seen complaints about how bad that particular thing got nerfed.

(I'm the only one who's complained about Corsairs, but I'm fairly sure they got it worst.)

Odks lost the ability to.do anything meaningful turn 1.

Well we still have KMK's that actually do something. 18 of those would at least give some ability to shoot some holes to the enemy.

CassianSol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

CassianSol wrote:
Multiple FNP saves are just tedious and slow the game (though they are far from the worst culprit.). From a playability purpose I support this change. Obviously, IH need something to compensate. Personally I'd get rid of the FNP and give them +1T on all infantry and leave it at that.

+1 to the FNP. So that ven goes from 6+++ rerolled to 5+++. Bit better than before and also faster to roll.

That's also a fine solution!

good idea but not good enugh compensation.
an IH dread army uses mainly ven dreads and FW dreads and they all comes whit 1 or 2 wound saves before the chapter save, and we all know that it only takes 1-2 lascannons whot non saved wounds to make a dread usless in turn 1.

if IH dont get a free pass from this stupid rule then the chapter trait needs to be a 4+ wound save. whit 2-3 rolls of 6+ the odds of actualy saving the wound was real. whit 1 single roll of 5+ the odds are too low.

It isn't just one roll per hit, it's one roll per wound. That's how FNP saves work.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

good idea but not good enugh compensation.
an IH dread army uses mainly ven dreads and FW dreads and they all comes whit 1 or 2 wound saves before the chapter save, and we all know that it only takes 1-2 lascannons whot non saved wounds to make a dread usless in turn 1.

if IH dont get a free pass from this stupid rule then the chapter trait needs to be a 4+ wound save. whit 2-3 rolls of 6+ the odds of actualy saving the wound was real. whit 1 single roll of 5+ the odds are too low.

Does the iron hand thingie work differently from other FNP? Because with other FNP's with lascannon hit it causes say 4 wounds, you roll 4 dice. If 6 no problem, if not it goes through. If you had another 6+++ FNP you would repeat. Basically 6+ rerollable. Which is worse odds than simply rolling 5+++.

Primark G wrote:Iron Hands have never been competitive.

*excluding 6th and 7th editions when they were.

Oh yeah, that's 2/3rds of the editions Iron Hands have had their own rules.
They're not competitive now, but that's common amongst most Space Marines this edition. At least you're always 16.66 more resilient than other Space Marines - if no-one gets in cover or uses buildings, the Imperial Fists are getting absolutely nothing at all.

I've never understood why the +++ rolls got to be used separately anyway. No other types of armor saves ever got separate rolls you always just chose the best and that was it.

Because the rules did not explicitly prevent you from using multiple rules, and each +++ was it's own rule.

The intent certainly seemed to be you only get one.

As for stacking - 2x6+++ becomes 5+++. In theory, 3x6+++ becomes a 4+++. That'd make stacking +++s even more powerful.


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IH are still the "We have more durability" Chapter. Crunch-wise, RG's trait does it better most of the time, while also adding other pluses, which is too bad. A flat 6-up to ignore a wound on any of your infantry isn't bad. It's just that RG is better than IH. And AL is better than RG. And Alaitoc is better than AL.

From competive perspective most chapter traits have not been viable from the get go.

So what makes IH bad is no Infiltrate and no Guilleman?

How would you rate them vs Sallies, Scars, or Fists?

CassianSol wrote:
Multiple FNP saves are just tedious and slow the game (though they are far from the worst culprit.). From a playability purpose I support this change. Obviously, IH need something to compensate. Personally I'd get rid of the FNP and give them +1T on all infantry and leave it at that.

It isn't that slow. Roll for 6. Roll for 6 again. It being "slow" is no excuse unless you just can't count. You don't have to do any adjusting or anything.

Bharring wrote:
So what makes IH bad is no Infiltrate and no Guilleman?

How would you rate them vs Sallies, Scars, or Fists?

Mostly they suffer from having no special characters (and are the only first founding chapter where this is the case), a bad relic, a meh stratagem and warlord trait. They also dont have any other kind of uniqueness like they used to. Back in the day, they were led by tougher techmarines, squad sergeants wore terminator armour, and their whole organisation was actually less codex compliant than BA. Its always been weird to me how come GW didnt iterate on that, rather than vanillafy them as they did... :/

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

CassianSol wrote:
Multiple FNP saves are just tedious and slow the game (though they are far from the worst culprit.). From a playability purpose I support this change. Obviously, IH need something to compensate. Personally I'd get rid of the FNP and give them +1T on all infantry and leave it at that.

It isn't that slow. Roll for 6. Roll for 6 again. It being "slow" is no excuse unless you just can't count. You don't have to do any adjusting or anything.

Adjustimg target takes zero time. It's picking up dozens of dices and rerolls.

Thanks to rerolls etc 8th is slower than 7th was...

Bharring wrote:
So what makes IH bad is no Infiltrate and no Guilleman?

How would you rate them vs Sallies, Scars, or Fists?

Imperial Fists and Salamanders are better. Only White Scars I'd say are worse.


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 Tyr13 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So what makes IH bad is no Infiltrate and no Guilleman?

How would you rate them vs Sallies, Scars, or Fists?

Mostly they suffer from having no special characters (and are the only first founding chapter where this is the case), a bad relic, a meh stratagem and warlord trait. They also dont have any other kind of uniqueness like they used to. Back in the day, they were led by tougher techmarines, squad sergeants wore terminator armour, and their whole organisation was actually less codex compliant than BA. Its always been weird to me how come GW didnt iterate on that, rather than vanillafy them as they did... :/

Eh the Relic ain't bad at least.

All the Chapter-Specific rules did was dilute the availability of good rules. Also, I think all the special characters including Bobby G should be available to every Chapter in the SM Codex. If Bobby G wasn’t Chapter-Specific or there were no Chapters, I would have bought the model already. I am sure I am not the only one as well. GW’s loss.

It wouldnt be that bad if it wasnt for the feature that was promoted by GW itself as a selling point of the chapter!

Yay for false advertising.

Why should iron hands get a special pass?
Quite frankly iron hands should be lucky they got anything at all
As a chaos player my marks don't do anything anymore. Heck Nurgle marines who are supposed to be tougher are just as durable as any other marine unless they are death guard or a plague marine. Please quit yo complaining

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Why should iron hands get a special pass?
Quite frankly iron hands should be lucky they got anything at all
As a chaos player my marks don't do anything anymore. Heck Nurgle marines who are supposed to be tougher are just as durable as any other marine unless they are death guard or a plague marine. Please quit yo complaining

Marks do something now, they let you have Daemons in your detachment.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Why should iron hands get a special pass?
Quite frankly iron hands should be lucky they got anything at all
As a chaos player my marks don't do anything anymore. Heck Nurgle marines who are supposed to be tougher are just as durable as any other marine unless they are death guard or a plague marine. Please quit yo complaining

That's a problem with the 4 God Legions not being well written but you are already getting those later. You still at least get Legion rules. Iron Hands literally lost the best gimmick they had from a frickin Community article!

Sub faction rules were just a bad idea to begin with. Some always end up being much better than others, and then you will be punished for your chapter/regiment/craftworld/etc choice or have to play counts as.

 Crimson wrote:
Sub faction rules were just a bad idea to begin with. Some always end up being much better than others, and then you will be punished for your chapter/regiment/craftworld/etc choice or have to play counts as.

By that logic all faction rules are a bad idea, Some always end up being much better than others, and then you will be punished for your faction choice or have to play counts as.

This isn't Chess.

Then again, Grey Knights players would agree.

Marine chapter tactics as a whole are just awful. Why should Iron Hands be any different?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sub faction rules were just a bad idea to begin with. Some always end up being much better than others, and then you will be punished for your chapter/regiment/craftworld/etc choice or have to play counts as. By that logic all faction rules are a bad idea, Some always end up being much better than others, and then you will be punished for your faction choice or have to play counts as.

This isn't Chess.

I knew someone would say that. It's different though, with different factions there are completely different units. Do these extra rules actually add something worthwhile in the game? I really preferred the time when Space Marines (outside the snowflake chapters) were just Space Marines and you could use all special characters for any chapter. This just leads the players of the subfactions who do not get the best rules (and that is always most of them) being bitter. All Eldar players use Alaitoc anyway, whats the point of even having the rules for other craftworlds? Besides, these rules often do not even reflect the fluff of the subfactions; Ravenguard favours Dread gunlines and if you want to bring a lot of IG tanks then Catachans are one of the best choices. Just scrap this unnecessary nonsense.


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 Marmatag wrote:
Marine chapter tactics as a whole are just awful. Why should Iron Hands be any different?

Ravenguard tactic is good, though that is exactly the sort of armywide rule that should have never existed.