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 Galas wrote:
The rule should change to give tou a 6+++ or improve your FNP save if you already have one by +1. Is a very simple solution.

Except they didn't do that and won't for a while if they choose to.

So, in a game with rerolls for failed hits and failed wounds, making a unit slightly harder to hit is somehow better than giving a unit the ability to shrug off any wounds it takes?

And the IH are somehow broken as an army because ONE unit loses a second chance to shrug off the wounds?

Good to know.

At least you can still play your army as what they are.

 helgrenze wrote:
So, in a game with rerolls for failed hits and failed wounds, making a unit slightly harder to hit is somehow better than giving a unit the ability to shrug off any wounds it takes?

And the IH are somehow broken as an army because ONE unit loses a second chance to shrug off the wounds?

Good to know.

At least you can still play your army as what they are.

Are you deliberately missing posts here?

Yeah making those units harder to hit is better. The math was shown to you here, even though you choose to deny it because you don't like decimals. Now the Ven Dreads that Iron Hands have literally lost an ability.

So -1 to hit > 6+++
-1 to hit + 6+++ > 6+++

Does this click yet?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
So, in a game with rerolls for failed hits and failed wounds, making a unit slightly harder to hit is somehow better than giving a unit the ability to shrug off any wounds it takes?

And the IH are somehow broken as an army because ONE unit loses a second chance to shrug off the wounds?

Good to know.

At least you can still play your army as what they are.

Are you deliberately missing posts here?

Yeah making those units harder to hit is better. The math was shown to you here, even though you choose to deny it because you don't like decimals. Now the Ven Dreads that Iron Hands have literally lost an ability.

So -1 to hit > 6+++
-1 to hit + 6+++ > 6+++


Does this click yet?

Actually, no. Mathhammer it all you want, the difference is actually negligible, since dice do not roll partial numbers, anything less than 1 does not really matter. Averaging only shows a likely trend based on median possibilities.
And, as I stated there are ways around the minus to hit, such as rerolls for both Hit and Wounds.
Run that math with Dark Reapers’ Inescapable Accuracy factored in. They always hit on a 3+ "irrespective of their Ballistic Skill characteristic or any modifiers." (FAQ'd).
This eliminates the -1 to hit and does nothing on the 'ignore wounds'.

And that -1 is based on range as well so the benefit can be removed by positioning and movement.
AFAIK there is no way to remove the "ignore wounds" roll other than Mortal Wounds.
These things factor into survivability but not into the math.
Removing, or adding, a second roll to ignore wounds does not change the averages all that much. The difference will still be less than 1, though the actual number will be lower than the shown .65.

Maybe you don't understand the math here?

 helgrenze wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
So, in a game with rerolls for failed hits and failed wounds, making a unit slightly harder to hit is somehow better than giving a unit the ability to shrug off any wounds it takes?

And the IH are somehow broken as an army because ONE unit loses a second chance to shrug off the wounds?

Good to know.

At least you can still play your army as what they are.

Are you deliberately missing posts here?

Yeah making those units harder to hit is better. The math was shown to you here, even though you choose to deny it because you don't like decimals. Now the Ven Dreads that Iron Hands have literally lost an ability.

So -1 to hit > 6+++
-1 to hit + 6+++ > 6+++


Does this click yet?

Actually, no. Mathhammer it all you want, the difference is actually negligible, since dice do not roll partial numbers,

Maybe you don't understand the math here?

Do you understand how averages work or anything?

When they both apply, the -1-to-hit will almost always be better than a 6+++.

But they don't apply uniformly.

You never get the -1-to-hit benefit against anything shooting within 12" - such as RF Guard, Marines, Scions, or Kalabites, or Guardians. Lots of things shoot you from within 12".

You never get the -1-to-hit benefit against anything in CC.

You never get the -1-to-hit benefit against anythign that doesn't roll to hit.

I think the -1-to-hit trait is better, but it's not always better. For instance, my favorite army doesn't do a lot of shooting from outside 12".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
So, in a game with rerolls for failed hits and failed wounds, making a unit slightly harder to hit is somehow better than giving a unit the ability to shrug off any wounds it takes?

And the IH are somehow broken as an army because ONE unit loses a second chance to shrug off the wounds?

Good to know.

At least you can still play your army as what they are.

Are you deliberately missing posts here?

Yeah making those units harder to hit is better. The math was shown to you here, even though you choose to deny it because you don't like decimals. Now the Ven Dreads that Iron Hands have literally lost an ability.

So -1 to hit > 6+++
-1 to hit + 6+++ > 6+++


Does this click yet?

Actually, no. Mathhammer it all you want, the difference is actually negligible, since dice do not roll partial numbers,

Maybe you don't understand the math here?

Do you understand how averages work or anything?

Yup.. even said so if you read the whole post.

Averaging only shows a likely trend based on median possibilities.

What you are looking for is a way to make the additional .1666667% appear to be more than it actually is. You only want the extra roll because "it's one more" (like the speaker from Spinal Tap).
It actually make very little difference to the Averages produced by Mathhammer. The Averages change by so little that the final resulting difference is still less than 1.

All the extra roll gives you is a second chance at rolling a 6 on a single die... 1/6 or .1666667%. which changes the average by less than 1/2 a percent. So you still wind up taking more damage ON AVERAGE than the RG.

Bharring wrote:
When they both apply, the -1-to-hit will almost always be better than a 6+++.

But they don't apply uniformly.

You never get the -1-to-hit benefit against anything shooting within 12" - such as RF Guard, Marines, Scions, or Kalabites, or Guardians. Lots of things shoot you from within 12".

You never get the -1-to-hit benefit against anything in CC.

You never get the -1-to-hit benefit against anythign that doesn't roll to hit.

I think the -1-to-hit trait is better, but it's not always better. For instance, my favorite army doesn't do a lot of shooting from outside 12".

Scions and Guardians were hit with the Deep Strike nerf and the shooting wasn't that dangerous to begin with. All the dangerous shooting is from outside those 12", and honestly you're likely blocking with screens.

For the non rolling to hit...whats doing that at the moment that we care about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 helgrenze wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
So, in a game with rerolls for failed hits and failed wounds, making a unit slightly harder to hit is somehow better than giving a unit the ability to shrug off any wounds it takes?

And the IH are somehow broken as an army because ONE unit loses a second chance to shrug off the wounds?

Good to know.

At least you can still play your army as what they are.

Are you deliberately missing posts here?

Yeah making those units harder to hit is better. The math was shown to you here, even though you choose to deny it because you don't like decimals. Now the Ven Dreads that Iron Hands have literally lost an ability.

So -1 to hit > 6+++
-1 to hit + 6+++ > 6+++


Does this click yet?

Actually, no. Mathhammer it all you want, the difference is actually negligible, since dice do not roll partial numbers,

Maybe you don't understand the math here?

Do you understand how averages work or anything?

Yup.. even said so if you read the whole post.

Averaging only shows a likely trend based on median possibilities.

What you are looking for is a way to make the additional .1666667% appear to be more than it actually is. You only want the extra roll because "it's one more" (like the speaker from Spinal Tap).
It actually make very little difference to the Averages produced by Mathhammer. The Averages change by so little that the final resulting difference is still less than 1.

All the extra roll gives you is a second chance at rolling a 6 on a single die... 1/6 or .1666667%. which changes the average by less than 1/2 a percent. So you still wind up taking more damage ON AVERAGE than the RG.

The actual average still stands though when you add it over time. You aren't allowed to ignore those numbers out because they disagree with you. 3.5 + 3.5 is 7 on a large wound model, but under your logic just rounding nilly-willy it's 8.

There was little reason to run Iron Hands. Now there's 0 reasons as they have Ven Dreads with less benefits than any other Chapter, and this is supposed to be the Chapter obsessed with Dreads and then being important and stuff.

That's nice and all with the adding of averages, but averages don't convert directly to actual die rolls.

Go ahead and try to roll .5 on a D6. I'll wait... maybe I'll go watch the Ironman movies while you roll.

Averages are good at general prediction of possible results, but if what you are predicting is based solely on whole numbers, like die rolls, then the results of the averaging are less than accurate.
Since the arithmetic median of a D6 is 3.5, (Its geometric average is 3.), any averaging based on it is going to be inaccurate at best.
Yes, the math "works" but not when applied in context of the game which is based on the geometrics of a D6 and not the averages you can math out.

Part of your argument is based on inaccurate averages due to the differences between the math and the geometrics involved.

The other part is based on a single unit being "less effective". As previoulsy pointed out, The Contemptor is a better choice. For 8 points, you get the same BS and WS, +2 wounds, an invul, 1 str, +3 move. And now it is even more "effective" than the Ven.
Considering that all you really get from the Ven, as IH, is +1 BS and WS for 20 points, you could save the points and just take the base Dred.

This change only affects ONE unit, the Ven Dred. All the other Dred choices still get to use the "Ignore Wounds" IH rule. So do the Bikes and Troops.

So yeah this one thing, limiting one unit, just kills your whole army.

"All the dangerous shooting is from outside 12".

Shining Spears weren't nerfed. If they're shooting outside 12", they're cheating.

If Alpha Legion Berzerkers are shooting you outside 12", they're cheating and not even trying to be subtle about it.

So, yeah, against Guard artillery, RG's trait is better. But it's not better in all cases. Or even all competitive cases.

 helgrenze wrote:
That's nice and all with the adding of averages, but averages don't convert directly to actual die rolls.

Go ahead and try to roll .5 on a D6. I'll wait... maybe I'll go watch the Ironman movies while you roll.

Averages are good at general prediction of possible results, but if what you are predicting is based solely on whole numbers, like die rolls, then the results of the averaging are less than accurate.
Since the arithmetic median of a D6 is 3.5, (Its geometric average is 3.), any averaging based on it is going to be inaccurate at best.
Yes, the math "works" but not when applied in context of the game which is based on the geometrics of a D6 and not the averages you can math out.

Part of your argument is based on inaccurate averages due to the differences between the math and the geometrics involved.

The other part is based on a single unit being "less effective". As previoulsy pointed out, The Contemptor is a better choice. For 8 points, you get the same BS and WS, +2 wounds, an invul, 1 str, +3 move. And now it is even more "effective" than the Ven.
Considering that all you really get from the Ven, as IH, is +1 BS and WS for 20 points, you could save the points and just take the base Dred.

This change only affects ONE unit, the Ven Dred. All the other Dred choices still get to use the "Ignore Wounds" IH rule. So do the Bikes and Troops.

So yeah this one thing, limiting one unit, just kills your whole army.

Under your logic, just assume Marines hit when shooting? That's a 66% chance, that's rounding up to 1!

Sorry that is ridiculous. You can assume in a vacuum that the dice you are using are evenly created and you can get an average for it, unless you're using weighted dice.

The change doesn't affect just the Venerable Dread (which was one of the only reasons to run Iron Hands in the first place). It affects Relic Contemptors, the Contemptor Mortis, and the Leviathan (think they have it) as well. That's a lot of Dreads affected by that change. It means that, as a whole, they've got less durable Dreadnoughts than Raven Guard in most situations.

Then their main HQ choice, a Captain/Master with the Iron Resolve Warlord Trait, is less durable than Slamguinus. The Chapter known for durability can't create as durable a character as Blood Angels can. Let that sink in.

I know you'll choose not to be bothered by that though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
"All the dangerous shooting is from outside 12".

Shining Spears weren't nerfed. If they're shooting outside 12", they're cheating.

If Alpha Legion Berzerkers are shooting you outside 12", they're cheating and not even trying to be subtle about it.

So, yeah, against Guard artillery, RG's trait is better. But it's not better in all cases. Or even all competitive cases.

Listing just a couple of cases doesn't make your point good. Maybe with Shining Spears you have a point, but Berserker Marines are gonna everything they touch anyway. A 6+++ doesn't make a difference for the price of that many attacks they have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Under your logic, just assume Marines hit when shooting? That's a 66% chance, that's rounding up to 1!

Sorry that is ridiculous. You can assume in a vacuum that the dice you are using are evenly created and you can get an average for it, unless you're using weighted dice.

The change doesn't affect just the Venerable Dread (which was one of the only reasons to run Iron Hands in the first place). It affects Relic Contemptors, the Contemptor Mortis, and the Leviathan (think they have it) as well. That's a lot of Dreads affected by that change. It means that, as a whole, they've got less durable Dreadnoughts than Raven Guard in most situations.

Then their main HQ choice, a Captain/Master with the Iron Resolve Warlord Trait, is less durable than Slamguinus. The Chapter known for durability can't create as durable a character as Blood Angels can. Let that sink in.

I know you'll choose not to be bothered by that though.

Lets address your third point first, shall we?
Iron Hands have their own WL Trait: Merciless Logic. Extra attack on a 6+ for each Hit. And the rule doesn't specify Shooting or CC. So, unless there are rules that change this somewhere, Iron Resolve should be off the table for your Warlord. OOPS.
As for the Sang comparrison.... No nameless Captain/Master is going to be equal to a Named Chapter Master, just not gonna happen.
OOPS on me, Sang WAS a Primarch.


Working back upwards: The rule change affects Forgeworld models? Really? So an additional 3 units that most don't likely use. Completely ignoring the 4 other Dreads you CAN use, of course.

Finally, on your first point: Dice are dice. I don't use Vegas Dice for anything, if I can help it, so yeah, I can assume the dice I am using are not biased.
Mathing out averages on dice is, as shown, inaccurate. The math only works on paper, not when actually rolling the dice. I have yet to see a die roll 1/2 of a point.
As for rounding, the ingame rule for rolling a D3 is to round up, so half of a 3 becomes a 2 and half of a 5 becomes a 3.

And No, Statistically, the average SM should be hitting 50% of the time, not 66%. Their BS is 3+ not 2+. Since the die only has 6 sides and not 7, The Geometric Average is 3, not 3.5.
This just shows why using averaging math on Dice is inaccurate.
So, Thank you for proving that point for me.

Oh, and ANY unit that gets within 12 inches negates the -1 To Hit..... Which could be anything that Deep Strikes (9+ Inches < 12 Inches.)

Seems like a stacked scenario to only want to compare an RG and IH ven dread.

I get that's the "only reason" to take IH, but feels disingenuous.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a stacked scenario to only want to compare an RG and IH ven dread.

I get that's the "only reason" to take IH, but feels disingenuous.

It was the only reason to take Iron Hands. -1 To Hit was clutch and forces the opponent to come to you, and then you can block the opponent with a synergistic Strategem with a heavy hitter or a screen.

Iron Hands didn't really have that synergy outside that stacking and the Warlord Trait stacking. They lost the main thing going for them there. Now a Raven Guard Venerable Dreadnought is straight up more durable in any situation or equal at minimum. If that doesn't bother you that the Dreadnought loving chapter has worse off Dreadnoughts as a whole, I don't know what to tell you.

You can argue math all night long but the bottom line is when you are playing a non-competitive army and one of the few unique rules interactions you have gets nerfed, that sucks. It sucks even more when it is getting nerfed because of an entirely different army.

 helgrenze wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Under your logic, just assume Marines hit when shooting? That's a 66% chance, that's rounding up to 1!

Sorry that is ridiculous. You can assume in a vacuum that the dice you are using are evenly created and you can get an average for it, unless you're using weighted dice.

The change doesn't affect just the Venerable Dread (which was one of the only reasons to run Iron Hands in the first place). It affects Relic Contemptors, the Contemptor Mortis, and the Leviathan (think they have it) as well. That's a lot of Dreads affected by that change. It means that, as a whole, they've got less durable Dreadnoughts than Raven Guard in most situations.

Then their main HQ choice, a Captain/Master with the Iron Resolve Warlord Trait, is less durable than Slamguinus. The Chapter known for durability can't create as durable a character as Blood Angels can. Let that sink in.

I know you'll choose not to be bothered by that though.

Lets address your third point first, shall we?
Iron Hands have their own WL Trait: Merciless Logic. Extra attack on a 6+ for each Hit. And the rule doesn't specify Shooting or CC. So, unless there are rules that change this somewhere, Iron Resolve should be off the table for your Warlord. OOPS.
As for the Sang comparrison.... No nameless Captain/Master is going to be equal to a Named Chapter Master, just not gonna happen.
OOPS on me, Sang WAS a Primarch.


Working back upwards: The rule change affects Forgeworld models? Really? So an additional 3 units that most don't likely use. Completely ignoring the 4 other Dreads you CAN use, of course.

Finally, on your first point: Dice are dice. I don't use Vegas Dice for anything, if I can help it, so yeah, I can assume the dice I am using are not biased.
Mathing out averages on dice is, as shown, inaccurate. The math only works on paper, not when actually rolling the dice. I have yet to see a die roll 1/2 of a point.
As for rounding, the ingame rule for rolling a D3 is to round up, so half of a 3 becomes a 2 and half of a 5 becomes a 3.

And No, Statistically, the average SM should be hitting 50% of the time, not 66%. Their BS is 3+ not 2+. Since the die only has 6 sides and not 7, The Geometric Average is 3, not 3.5.
This just shows why using averaging math on Dice is inaccurate.
So, Thank you for proving that point for me.

Oh, and ANY unit that gets within 12 inches negates the -1 To Hit..... Which could be anything that Deep Strikes (9+ Inches < 12 Inches.)

You clearly aren't paying attention if you see Slamguinus and say no generic Chapter Master should compare to a named character or a Primarch. Slamguinus is a nickname like Smashbane and Murderwings of last edition. So it'll help to learn those terms.

So lemme just teach you that real quick. Slamguinus is a Blood Angels Captain with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, and a Jump Pack turned into the relic. You then use a single CP to give him Death Visions and give him the Foresight Warlord Trait, which now stacks for a 5+++ rerolling 1's.
At most you can only do a Shield Eternal for an Iron Hands Captain. That's all you can do anymore. He won't be as deadly in combat and isn't as durable.

You're also not understanding how averages work as it works on paper and on the table. So lemme show you that real quick:
1. A unit is BS3+
2. Therefore that unit hits on a 3, 4, 5, 6
3. Therefore that unit misses on a 1, 2
4. That's a 66.6% chance to hit
5. You use the averages to calculate how many Marines you need to kill a specific unit.

So you can say "hurrdurr there's no .5 or .66 on dice", but you can calculate how Infantry of 10 will hit or how many of 5 will hit, as those averages can lead to, shockingly, whole numbers that add up over time!

It isn't just "does it hit or not". I'm wondering how you calculate Orks hitting.

Meh.

So because of this one rule, maybe GW should just SQUAT the Iron Hands and be done with it?

I mean, they have zero Named Characters, and are, according to you, total crap without this tiny advantage on a limited number of models. And no Relics that only they can take ... except for an Axe that is +2 Str, -3 AP, 2 D. Or any IH Only Strats.... oh wait got one of those too that benefits Dreads.

Yup, just erase them.

Time to repaint your models, I guess.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You're deliberately missing the point. They lost an additional buff to a unit that's frickin fluffy for them on top of not sucking. Now that unit is 100% worse compared to the same choice with every other chapter.

That was the thing they had going for them. Better Ven Dreadnoughts. Give a reason to run the army now.

They still have 6+++ across the rest of their army, which is unchanged. A flat 16.6666% increase of durability is enough reason, no? Sorry, except for two units. Because those two units were the only things that mattered. You could get rid of the 6+++ on EVERY OTHER unit, and they wouldn't be hurt, but it's these two units that need that 6+++.

Yeah, it's fluffy. It's also fluffy for me to take a full Battle Company with ten man squads. Is being fluffy enough reason for it to be buffed? Ideally, but I'm still not being rewarded for taking full Tactical and Devastator Squads.

Yeah, fine, this trait sucks because Venerable Dreadnoughts get no specific buff from being Iron Hands (except their stratagem). But what about Ultramarines units with the Fly keyword, or White Scars with the Fly keyword? They can already disengage from close combat and shoot/charge again - they're missing out on the meat of their Chapter's Tactic! And what's this? There's more than two units with the Fly keyword in the Space Marine codex? That must mean then Ultramarines and White Scars are unplayable too!!

The Imperial Fists get no bonus at all unless their enemy uses cover (which, after they know they're fighting IF, they just won't bother using) or on a fringe case if they take a Building. The Black Templars one is useless on a Devastator Squad which probably won't charge, as is the White Scars Devastators (who won't be Advancing OR charging).

The only three Space Marine Chapters who get their main buff all the time are Salamanders, Raven Guard (because they're usually out of 12", and Iron Hands - except on two units. Oh woe is me.

I understand ya. The Chaos Lord entry in the Death Guard codex probably irks 100% of players. At least they HAVE a bonus of some kind (though the bonus is mostly lost on them let's be honest).

My main issue is that they literally lost an ability that was a selling point in the Community Article, and honestly it was one of the only selling points of the Iron Hands army.

And Conscripts and Commissars working together was one a selling point in the Community Article. Are guardsmen unplayable now that's been removed?

It was ONE unit, a unit that can't be taken more than three times now. Is losing a 6+++ on ONE UNIT enough to make the Iron Hands completely broken?

I think you're overreacting.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:The change doesn't affect just the Venerable Dread (which was one of the only reasons to run Iron Hands in the first place). It affects Relic Contemptors, the Contemptor Mortis, and the Leviathan (think they have it) as well. That's a lot of Dreads affected by that change. It means that, as a whole, they've got less durable Dreadnoughts than Raven Guard in most situations.

Again, saying that the only reason to run Iron Hands for the Dreads simply isn't a fact. It's a fact maybe for you, because you like Dreads and Iron Hands are fluffy for Dreads, but pretending like the ONLY reason someone plays Iron Hands is for the Dreadnoughts is simply not a FACT, and it's not universal.

Maybe I should start an Iron Hands army just to prove to you that you can have Iron Hands armies without Dreadnoughts.

Then their main HQ choice, a Captain/Master with the Iron Resolve Warlord Trait, is less durable than Slamguinus. The Chapter known for durability can't create as durable a character as Blood Angels can. Let that sink in.

If you put it like that, the Chapter known for their zealotous crusades and close-combat prowess (Black Templars) can't be as good in CQC as the Blood Angels can.
The Chapter known for being great at killing xenos (Deathwatch) can't create as good a xenos killing HQ as the Blood Angels can.
The Chapter known for their speed (White Scars) can't create as speedy a character as the Blood Angels (+2 Movement isn't as fast as a Deep Striking reroll-charge Captain)

That's more because the Blood Angels have a really good CQC leader, who is quick, durable and very killy. Slamguinius is better than EVERY Chapter's captains, regardless of their specialty.

Bharring wrote:
"All the dangerous shooting is from outside 12".

Shining Spears weren't nerfed. If they're shooting outside 12", they're cheating.

If Alpha Legion Berzerkers are shooting you outside 12", they're cheating and not even trying to be subtle about it.

So, yeah, against Guard artillery, RG's trait is better. But it's not better in all cases. Or even all competitive cases.

Listing just a couple of cases doesn't make your point good. Maybe with Shining Spears you have a point, but Berserker Marines are gonna everything they touch anyway. A 6+++ doesn't make a difference for the price of that many attacks they have.

It's 16.666% better than the Raven Guard.

If you're saying that "oh, it's just a 6+++, it won't do anything", why does it matter on the Venerable Dreadnought then?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It was the only reason to take Iron Hands. -1 To Hit was clutch and forces the opponent to come to you, and then you can block the opponent with a synergistic Strategem with a heavy hitter or a screen.

And not, yanno, the flat 16.666% durability buff on the rest of your army?
So you're telling me you'd rather have the 6+++ on the Venerable Dreadnought instead of having it on the rest of your army? You genuinely believe that?

Sorry, did you only take armies of JUST Venerable Dreadnoughts? If so, I think the Rule of Three might have screwed you over more than losing a 6+++.

Iron Hands didn't really have that synergy outside that stacking and the Warlord Trait stacking. They lost the main thing going for them there. Now a Raven Guard Venerable Dreadnought is straight up more durable in any situation or equal at minimum. If that doesn't bother you that the Dreadnought loving chapter has worse off Dreadnoughts as a whole, I don't know what to tell you.

And that's just the Raven Guard. On one unit. Whereas you get a flat out 16.6666% in melee, within 12" and even, if memory serves right, against Mortal Wounds. Unlike the Raven Guard.

So yeah, sure. They're nearly always more durable with one single unit. You're more durable with the rest of your army under certain conditions.

What if I told you that people play fluffy armies...

The nerf isn't great for Iron Hands true, but if people chose them it likely wasn't for hyper competitive play, so those people won't abandon the chapter. And for those that do play hyper competitive with Iron Hands, this isn't a huge nerf. An extra 6+ save wasn't the biggest factor deciding games. Someone I played against used Bjorn as his warlord with Tenacious Survivor. The same rule nerfed him a bit, but it's not going to wildly make him weaker.

War Master Marterix wrote:
What if I told you that people play fluffy armies...

Is this in response to me?

If so, I'd like you to point out just where it says the Iron Hands only field armies full of Venerable Dreadnoughts?

Yeah, they have more of them than what a "normal" Chapter would have. However, they also have more normal Dreadnoughts, more Ironclads, and STILL have Tactical Marines, Terminators, Assault Marines, Devastators, bikes etc etc.

The Iron Hands have NEVER been about ONLY Dreadnoughts - that's a flanderisation of their character. They like their Dreadnoughts, and certainly have a great deal of dedication to them, but it's not at the exclusion of everything else. And not only that, they still HAVE buffs for their dreadnoughts: just not the Venerable Dreadnought.

The kind of thinking that "oh X Chapter likes Y and only takes Y at the exclusion of everything else" is why people think that White Scars armies with no Devastators or Tactical Marines, or Salamanders who only wield flamers and meltas, or Raven Guard only with jump packs and lightning claws, and no Terminators are all the fluffiest approaches to those Chapters. The Chapter will like to field certain things, and will certainly have preferences, but they still have the majority of their Chapter who are bolter footsloggers. That's not to say they're not fluffy, but Iron Hands have units that they field other than Dreadnoughts.

And really, if fluff was the main concern here, I doubt there'd be this much of an uproar about losing a 6+++ on one model.

Just because it keeps being brought up, its a 20% increase to durability, not a 16.666% increase to durability. (Without taking into account damage over and above remaining wounds).

 helgrenze wrote:
Meh.

So because of this one rule, maybe GW should just SQUAT the Iron Hands and be done with it?

I mean, they have zero Named Characters, and are, according to you, total crap without this tiny advantage on a limited number of models. And no Relics that only they can take ... except for an Axe that is +2 Str, -3 AP, 2 D. Or any IH Only Strats.... oh wait got one of those too that benefits Dreads.

Yup, just erase them.

Time to repaint your models, I guess.

You don't have to repaint. You simply have to not use them as Iron Hands. Its pretty insulting towards Iron Hands players.

I have still yet to see anyone mention what the main benefit to the double FNP.

DISTRACTION AND TARGET PRIORITY.

When you had a Double FNP (DFNP) on a venerable dread of whatever type, it immediately became a cause for concern for your opponent instead of your tanks, dev squads, aggressors or hellblasters, etc.

When capt smashfucker on a bike with a TH and DFNP and a vets on bike squad tearing through their deployment zone they got worried and needed to devote more attention to getting rid of them before it was too late.

I have never thought about having a DFNP as making them survive longer. In fact, due to their threat level they were likely to die sooner. However thanks to my opponents shooting/fighting them first, the rest of my army can gain more board control and better positions.

Distraction Carnifex is the name of the game. Pay no attention to the hellblasters getting into position to snipe your tank or 2+ wound elites. Nevermind my reivers that are assaulting your screens to make room for other assaults and character targeting.

While DFNP means lasting longer overall, that shouldnt be your tactical goal for achieving DFNP. If it is, then you've likely already lost your game. IH are definitely a weak chapter overall, thus you have to be craftier than your opponent. Think a bit outside the box

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Seems like a stacked scenario to only want to compare an RG and IH ven dread.

I get that's the "only reason" to take IH, but feels disingenuous.

It was the only reason to take Iron Hands. -1 To Hit was clutch and forces the opponent to come to you, and then you can block the opponent with a synergistic Strategem with a heavy hitter or a screen.

Iron Hands didn't really have that synergy outside that stacking and the Warlord Trait stacking. They lost the main thing going for them there. Now a Raven Guard Venerable Dreadnought is straight up more durable in any situation or equal at minimum. If that doesn't bother you that the Dreadnought loving chapter has worse off Dreadnoughts as a whole, I don't know what to tell you.

Right you lost Ven dreads. But you're not shoehorned to that type. Here's a probability chart of -1 vs 6+++ vs standard. 6+++ is about 15% more likely to die. Is that good enough to match up to a -1 to hit that isn't always on? I don't know. It depends what you're looking to do with the army.

Is -1 & 6+++ better than just 6+++? Without question, but RG is not likely running around with Ven Dreads.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You're deliberately missing the point. They lost an additional buff to a unit that's frickin fluffy for them on top of not sucking. Now that unit is 100% worse compared to the same choice with every other chapter.

That was the thing they had going for them. Better Ven Dreadnoughts. Give a reason to run the army now.

They still have 6+++ across the rest of their army, which is unchanged. A flat 16.6666% increase of durability is enough reason, no? Sorry, except for two units. Because those two units were the only things that mattered. You could get rid of the 6+++ on EVERY OTHER unit, and they wouldn't be hurt, but it's these two units that need that 6+++.

Yeah, it's fluffy. It's also fluffy for me to take a full Battle Company with ten man squads. Is being fluffy enough reason for it to be buffed? Ideally, but I'm still not being rewarded for taking full Tactical and Devastator Squads.

Yeah, fine, this trait sucks because Venerable Dreadnoughts get no specific buff from being Iron Hands (except their stratagem). But what about Ultramarines units with the Fly keyword, or White Scars with the Fly keyword? They can already disengage from close combat and shoot/charge again - they're missing out on the meat of their Chapter's Tactic! And what's this? There's more than two units with the Fly keyword in the Space Marine codex? That must mean then Ultramarines and White Scars are unplayable too!!

The Imperial Fists get no bonus at all unless their enemy uses cover (which, after they know they're fighting IF, they just won't bother using) or on a fringe case if they take a Building. The Black Templars one is useless on a Devastator Squad which probably won't charge, as is the White Scars Devastators (who won't be Advancing OR charging).

The only three Space Marine Chapters who get their main buff all the time are Salamanders, Raven Guard (because they're usually out of 12", and Iron Hands - except on two units. Oh woe is me.

I understand ya. The Chaos Lord entry in the Death Guard codex probably irks 100% of players. At least they HAVE a bonus of some kind (though the bonus is mostly lost on them let's be honest).

My main issue is that they literally lost an ability that was a selling point in the Community Article, and honestly it was one of the only selling points of the Iron Hands army.

And Conscripts and Commissars working together was one a selling point in the Community Article. Are guardsmen unplayable now that's been removed?

It was ONE unit, a unit that can't be taken more than three times now. Is losing a 6+++ on ONE UNIT enough to make the Iron Hands completely broken?

I think you're overreacting.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:The change doesn't affect just the Venerable Dread (which was one of the only reasons to run Iron Hands in the first place). It affects Relic Contemptors, the Contemptor Mortis, and the Leviathan (think they have it) as well. That's a lot of Dreads affected by that change. It means that, as a whole, they've got less durable Dreadnoughts than Raven Guard in most situations.

Again, saying that the only reason to run Iron Hands for the Dreads simply isn't a fact. It's a fact maybe for you, because you like Dreads and Iron Hands are fluffy for Dreads, but pretending like the ONLY reason someone plays Iron Hands is for the Dreadnoughts is simply not a FACT, and it's not universal.

Maybe I should start an Iron Hands army just to prove to you that you can have Iron Hands armies without Dreadnoughts.

Then their main HQ choice, a Captain/Master with the Iron Resolve Warlord Trait, is less durable than Slamguinus. The Chapter known for durability can't create as durable a character as Blood Angels can. Let that sink in.

If you put it like that, the Chapter known for their zealotous crusades and close-combat prowess (Black Templars) can't be as good in CQC as the Blood Angels can.
The Chapter known for being great at killing xenos (Deathwatch) can't create as good a xenos killing HQ as the Blood Angels can.
The Chapter known for their speed (White Scars) can't create as speedy a character as the Blood Angels (+2 Movement isn't as fast as a Deep Striking reroll-charge Captain)

That's more because the Blood Angels have a really good CQC leader, who is quick, durable and very killy. Slamguinius is better than EVERY Chapter's captains, regardless of their specialty.

Bharring wrote:
"All the dangerous shooting is from outside 12".

Shining Spears weren't nerfed. If they're shooting outside 12", they're cheating.

If Alpha Legion Berzerkers are shooting you outside 12", they're cheating and not even trying to be subtle about it.

So, yeah, against Guard artillery, RG's trait is better. But it's not better in all cases. Or even all competitive cases.

Listing just a couple of cases doesn't make your point good. Maybe with Shining Spears you have a point, but Berserker Marines are gonna everything they touch anyway. A 6+++ doesn't make a difference for the price of that many attacks they have.

It's 16.666% better than the Raven Guard.

If you're saying that "oh, it's just a 6+++, it won't do anything", why does it matter on the Venerable Dreadnought then?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It was the only reason to take Iron Hands. -1 To Hit was clutch and forces the opponent to come to you, and then you can block the opponent with a synergistic Strategem with a heavy hitter or a screen.

And not, yanno, the flat 16.666% durability buff on the rest of your army?
So you're telling me you'd rather have the 6+++ on the Venerable Dreadnought instead of having it on the rest of your army? You genuinely believe that?

Sorry, did you only take armies of JUST Venerable Dreadnoughts? If so, I think the Rule of Three might have screwed you over more than losing a 6+++.

Iron Hands didn't really have that synergy outside that stacking and the Warlord Trait stacking. They lost the main thing going for them there. Now a Raven Guard Venerable Dreadnought is straight up more durable in any situation or equal at minimum. If that doesn't bother you that the Dreadnought loving chapter has worse off Dreadnoughts as a whole, I don't know what to tell you.

And that's just the Raven Guard. On one unit. Whereas you get a flat out 16.6666% in melee, within 12" and even, if memory serves right, against Mortal Wounds. Unlike the Raven Guard.

So yeah, sure. They're nearly always more durable with one single unit. You're more durable with the rest of your army under certain conditions.

1. People can tell you how useless the Ultramarine trait is overall actually. The only thing going for them is a ridiculous amount of special characters and that it's even harder to get rid of MSU. However the ability to charge first and deny potential bonuses and then just falling back like nothing happened is actually very good offensively. So they gain nothing for Fly units
There's also nothing in the codex that can fall back and charge, so White Scars is technically a new bonus altogether. Why is it dead last with Iron Hands? Not many ways to advance and charge, so nothing really clicks together. They also have a lame relic too.
Imperial Fists are actually good as they ignore some of the top CT equivalents and force the opponent to consider differing deployment strategies.
Black Templars have the single best Strategem in the codex and actually help melee based armies more than White Scars. They also make a better gunline than Iron Hands because they can use a lot of command points to make a new Chapter Master and give the relic increasing his range. Its very opposing playstyles yeah. Still works out better than for Iron Hands.
Then you have Raven Guard where everything clicks together like it does for Alpha Legion.

2. You can make the army without Venerable Dreads. It'll just be terrible because everyone else is doing everything else better.

3. Slamguinus is THAT much better than any Iron Hands character though at durability. White Scars can buff a Biker Captain with a Strategem at least to get into combat quicker, and a Black Templars character is still likely to get into combat without the use of a Strategem.
Deathwatch don't even have a codex yet so it's dishonest to include them to try and make your point have any value. Which it doesn't.

4. It mattered because it stacked, which was one of the ONLY good synergies the Iron Hands player had. Now you get punished for using a Relic Contemptor or Venerable Dread.

4. Actually yeah, because it's that useless on infantry. Ask Iron Warriors players how often they use their own Strategem, seeing that Chaos Marine players get pretty easy access to Cp. The answer is they don't. It is only a useful trait when you can stack it, as at least any other Tactic besides White Scars forces the opponent to conform to a different play style in some manner.

5. Mortal wounds? Not even an issue after the Smite hit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. People can tell you how useless the Ultramarine trait is overall actually. The only thing going for them is a ridiculous amount of special characters and that it's even harder to get rid of MSU. However the ability to charge first and deny potential bonuses and then just falling back like nothing happened is actually very good offensively. So they gain nothing for Fly units

So the UM trait isn't actually so much about the trait as what units you bring - a completely different thing, and technically not a trait of the actual Chapter Tactic.
It IS a good offensive trait, but it's wasted on units that Fly - which is exactly my point. Your Iron Hands have a redundant save on a handful of models. The Ultramarines have a redundant rule on anything that Flies, which is a fair amount (Vanguard, Assault Marines, Inceptors, any HQ with a jump pack).

There's also nothing in the codex that can fall back and charge, so White Scars is technically a new bonus altogether. Why is it dead last with Iron Hands? Not many ways to advance and charge, so nothing really clicks together. They also have a lame relic too.

Advancing and charging is a stratagem, not part of innate trait. If we're going for stratagems, it allows Iron Hands Venerable Dreadnoughts to move at speed and not suffer penalty - a new bonus for Dreadnoughts altogether too. Also, unless I am mistaken (so please correct me if I'm missing something) but can't Fly units charge straight back in after combat? If so, wouldn't that also be wasted on Fly units, like the UM one.

Imperial Fists are actually good as they ignore some of the top CT equivalents and force the opponent to consider differing deployment strategies.

These differing strategies aren't that forceful. If anything, they stop the opponent worrying about needing to hug cover, and liberate them to only focus on LOS and range.
Fists really aren't that great.

Black Templars have the single best Strategem in the codex and actually help melee based armies more than White Scars. They also make a better gunline than Iron Hands because they can use a lot of command points to make a new Chapter Master and give the relic increasing his range. Its very opposing playstyles yeah. Still works out better than for Iron Hands.

Again, stratagem. Not very useful when you don't have any CP left. I'm comparing their actual Chapter Tactic, because that's always active. Without that, they're not "better than Iron Hands" at all.

Then you have Raven Guard where everything clicks together like it does for Alpha Legion.

Yes, true - unless you're within 12", or in melee.
Unlike the Iron Hands who ALWAYS get that 6+++, unless you're one of the few units that already has it.

2. You can make the army without Venerable Dreads. It'll just be terrible because everyone else is doing everything else better.

And you have make your other Dreads more durable. That's not changed.

Same as a White Scars army can do a full Devastator army. It'll just be terrible because their Tactics don't support it - like this.

3. Slamguinus is THAT much better than any Iron Hands character though at durability. White Scars can buff a Biker Captain with a Strategem at least to get into combat quicker, and a Black Templars character is still likely to get into combat without the use of a Strategem.
Deathwatch don't even have a codex yet so it's dishonest to include them to try and make your point have any value. Which it doesn't.

White Scars need a stratagem. Not part of their innate speed.
Black Templars need a stratagem, again, not an innate ability.
Deathwatch are still "the best xenos killers" apparently, or apparently not.

4. It mattered because it stacked, which was one of the ONLY good synergies the Iron Hands player had. Now you get punished for using a Relic Contemptor or Venerable Dread.

Not punished. Just no benefit. Punishment would be removing the 6+++ they already had.

5. Actually yeah, because it's that useless on infantry. Ask Iron Warriors players how often they use their own Strategem, seeing that Chaos Marine players get pretty easy access to Cp. The answer is they don't. It is only a useful trait when you can stack it, as at least any other Tactic besides White Scars forces the opponent to conform to a different play style in some manner.

It's exactly the same as Raven Guard. How can Raven Guard be the best of all time and Iron Hands isn't? There's a few fringe cases where one is better than another (Raven Guard being good against plasma weapons and low BS armies, Iron Hands being flat out better under 12" and in melee) but they are largely the same.

How does the Ultramarines Tactic force the opponent to change tactic against their Fly units?

6. Mortal wounds? Not even an issue after the Smite hit.

But they still exist, and against Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, and other psyker heavy armies, that's a 6+ that no-one else can get.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. People can tell you how useless the Ultramarine trait is overall actually. The only thing going for them is a ridiculous amount of special characters and that it's even harder to get rid of MSU. However the ability to charge first and deny potential bonuses and then just falling back like nothing happened is actually very good offensively. So they gain nothing for Fly units

So the UM trait isn't actually so much about the trait as what units you bring - a completely different thing, and technically not a trait of the actual Chapter Tactic.
It IS a good offensive trait, but it's wasted on units that Fly - which is exactly my point. Your Iron Hands have a redundant save on a handful of models. The Ultramarines have a redundant rule on anything that Flies, which is a fair amount (Vanguard, Assault Marines, Inceptors, any HQ with a jump pack).

There's also nothing in the codex that can fall back and charge, so White Scars is technically a new bonus altogether. Why is it dead last with Iron Hands? Not many ways to advance and charge, so nothing really clicks together. They also have a lame relic too.

Advancing and charging is a stratagem, not part of innate trait. If we're going for stratagems, it allows Iron Hands Venerable Dreadnoughts to move at speed and not suffer penalty - a new bonus for Dreadnoughts altogether too. Also, unless I am mistaken (so please correct me if I'm missing something) but can't Fly units charge straight back in after combat? If so, wouldn't that also be wasted on Fly units, like the UM one.

Imperial Fists are actually good as they ignore some of the top CT equivalents and force the opponent to consider differing deployment strategies.

These differing strategies aren't that forceful. If anything, they stop the opponent worrying about needing to hug cover, and liberate them to only focus on LOS and range.
Fists really aren't that great.

Black Templars have the single best Strategem in the codex and actually help melee based armies more than White Scars. They also make a better gunline than Iron Hands because they can use a lot of command points to make a new Chapter Master and give the relic increasing his range. Its very opposing playstyles yeah. Still works out better than for Iron Hands.

Again, stratagem. Not very useful when you don't have any CP left. I'm comparing their actual Chapter Tactic, because that's always active. Without that, they're not "better than Iron Hands" at all.

Then you have Raven Guard where everything clicks together like it does for Alpha Legion.

Yes, true - unless you're within 12", or in melee.
Unlike the Iron Hands who ALWAYS get that 6+++, unless you're one of the few units that already has it.

2. You can make the army without Venerable Dreads. It'll just be terrible because everyone else is doing everything else better.

And you have make your other Dreads more durable. That's not changed.

Same as a White Scars army can do a full Devastator army. It'll just be terrible because their Tactics don't support it - like this.

3. Slamguinus is THAT much better than any Iron Hands character though at durability. White Scars can buff a Biker Captain with a Strategem at least to get into combat quicker, and a Black Templars character is still likely to get into combat without the use of a Strategem.
Deathwatch don't even have a codex yet so it's dishonest to include them to try and make your point have any value. Which it doesn't.

White Scars need a stratagem. Not part of their innate speed.
Black Templars need a stratagem, again, not an innate ability.
Deathwatch are still "the best xenos killers" apparently, or apparently not.

4. It mattered because it stacked, which was one of the ONLY good synergies the Iron Hands player had. Now you get punished for using a Relic Contemptor or Venerable Dread.

Not punished. Just no benefit. Punishment would be removing the 6+++ they already had.

5. Actually yeah, because it's that useless on infantry. Ask Iron Warriors players how often they use their own Strategem, seeing that Chaos Marine players get pretty easy access to Cp. The answer is they don't. It is only a useful trait when you can stack it, as at least any other Tactic besides White Scars forces the opponent to conform to a different play style in some manner.

It's exactly the same as Raven Guard. How can Raven Guard be the best of all time and Iron Hands isn't? There's a few fringe cases where one is better than another (Raven Guard being good against plasma weapons and low BS armies, Iron Hands being flat out better under 12" and in melee) but they are largely the same.

How does the Ultramarines Tactic force the opponent to change tactic against their Fly units?

6. Mortal wounds? Not even an issue after the Smite hit.

But they still exist, and against Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, and other psyker heavy armies, that's a 6+ that no-one else can get.

1. Which basically means they just use the +1LD. At least it isn't a whole trait wasted compared to Iron Hands who have models that ARE supposed to benefit but now get zilch. That means their version of those models are strictly inferior.

2. Start playing the game more and then maybe you'll know if something can charge from falling back if it has Fly.

3. Which forces potentially worse deployment or just equal at best. Thanks for proving my point.

4. Apparently Deep Strike and charging isn't dead. They do that better than anyone else without the help of Strategems. They also do ironically make one of the best gunlines even if you don't choose to make benefit of the Chapter Tactic. Also the Marine codex isn't exactly filled with lots of Strategems you want to use, so who is running out of CP exactly?

5. Which the Raven Guard get synergy with thanks to their Strategem. A terribly non-specific -1 to hit is better than the 6+++. That's a fact.

6. You mean the Dreadnoughts you don't want to use? The regular ones that aren't even good? LOL k. At most you could argue for the Ironclad but seeing Drop Pods aren't carrying them anymore unless you have 80 points...

7. White Scars Strategem would be equivalent to the Slamguinus speed Strategem, and the Black Templars one doesn't need a Strategem. You're also bringing up an Index army again to be dishonest by saying saying "LOOK IT'S WORSE TOO". At least wait for the codex before you want to make this a point?

8. It's removing the second 6+++ that the Iron Hands had. That's punishment. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

9. Even when you want to pretend they're largely the same...they aren't. Shooting is king and Raven Guard can use a single CP or two to setup road blocks for any potential melee threats. Synergistic. Iron Hands don't get that now!
Regarding Ultramarines, it forces the opponent to play differently if they're melee (as anything not killed is going to shoot again) or if the player is aggressive and wants to use tarpitting against anything not a vehicle.
For their Fly units, you can't rely on a single bad morale check, so you have to kill every model like you would against a Necron opponent to prevent RP.

10. Wanna tell Grey Knights and Thousand Sons players that? I think any of them can tell you how useless their Smite abilities are, and full Smite got significantly worse because GW can't balance Psykers.

Hmm, let me correct a couple of wrong points in this discussion.

1) IH CT is not bad at all, and on primaris it is actually better than -1 to hit (from a 3+ source) even at distances greater than 12" against damage 2 weapons.

2) Smite spam from thousand sons (a bit less from GK) is real, they are not affected by the smite nerf (inculuding real smites, not only the small ones).

 helgrenze wrote:

And No, Statistically, the average SM should be hitting 50% of the time, not 66%. Their BS is 3+ not 2+. Since the die only has 6 sides and not 7, The Geometric Average is 3, not 3.5.
This just shows why using averaging math on Dice is inaccurate.
So, Thank you for proving that point for me.

I can't even tell if he's serious or trolling.

I suppose if he's not trolling, he probably studies some kind of financial field of studies and was taught, that in finances you should use geometrical average (which makes sense because of it's incremental nature), but now he thinks that it's a "superior" form of calculating averages and should be applied in every case.