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 silashand wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I know Nick Nanavati is a better player than me, and I would bet real money he's a better player than you, Marm. If you're not going to trust someone who's consistently put up results as a top player to understand the fundamentals of the game, who can you trust?

I know I don't trust his opinion on spam since he came out against it in his blog, but every list he has taken to major events that I can recall has been nothing but spam. He is definitely a good player (I have played him once and he stomped me), but I wonder how much of his ability is tied to how well he can come up with broken combos better than other people. Just a thought anyway...

I think that is a difference on the idea of spam. I think to high end tournament players spam is things like 7 flyrants, or 30 reapers. I cannot think of one of his lists that brings more than 4 of any particular unit. I mean what is the spam in his LVO list Reapers? If I bring 17 tactical marines is that spam? Or are we changing the definition based on unit effectiveness?

In the end my take away from his article on spam was don’t just find one unit that is effective and take all your points in that unit.

He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

His Adepticon Poxwalker list is actually legal under the post-FAQ rules, so he definitely wasn't "spamming" there.

Ice_can wrote:
What I find more annoying is the worst offenders of MW psychic spam TS got a get out of jail free card for this nerf.

So... 140-180pts characters that deal 1.666 MW each turn with Smite are "the worst offenders" ? Or MEQ units with a minimal cost of 107pts dealing 0.833 MW ?

Just so you know, Primaris Psykers cost 46pts and deal the same amount of MW as TS characters. Before the Beta rules, people would frequently bring 10 of them (that's 16 MW per turn) in a list and still have 1500pts left for things like Basilisks and Manticores. Cheap psykers with a full Smite ARE the worst offenders. Very expensive units are not.

Xenomancer is right : the Smite nerf was unneeded. Giving mini-smite to every Psyker under 70pts was the real fix to this issue.

 Nym wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
What I find more annoying is the worst offenders of MW psychic spam TS got a get out of jail free card for this nerf.

So... 140-180pts characters that deal 1.666 MW each turn with Smite are "the worst offenders" ? Or MEQ units with a minimal cost of 107pts dealing 0.833 MW ?

Just so you know, Primaris Psykers cost 46pts and deal the same amount of MW as TS characters. Before the Beta rules, people would frequently bring 10 of them (that's 16 MW per turn) in a list and still have 1500pts left for things like Basilisks and Manticores. Cheap psykers with a full Smite ARE the worst offenders. Very expensive units are not.

Xenomancer is right : the Smite nerf was unneeded. Giving mini-smite to every Psyker under 70pts was the real fix to this issue.

Can't say its been a problem I've seen personally.
TS being able to through down so many psychic powers at undeniably ranges 24 full smites from 12" move models and rerolls the first fail with a 5++ was way more of an issue than IG taking something other than NLOS castles.

Ice_can wrote:

Can't say its been a problem I've seen personally.
TS being able to through down so many psychic powers at undeniably ranges 24 full smites from 12" move models and rerolls the first fail with a 5++ was way more of an issue than IG taking something other than NLOS castles.

Wat? The shaman with a single cast per turn and a single reroll per game at 90 points and 4 wounds was the real problem?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Can't say its been a problem I've seen personally.
TS being able to through down so many psychic powers at undeniably ranges 24 full smites from 12" move models and rerolls the first fail with a 5++ was way more of an issue than IG taking something other than NLOS castles.

Wat? The shaman with a single cast per turn and a single reroll per game at 90 points and 4 wounds was the real problem?

The untargetable charictors with a 12inch move and advance was indead a problem when the run away from your charging guys and MW them to death and leave you the only option of cleansing the board of everything not a charictor while taking the MW.
I can't remeber anything having worse than a 5++ in the entire army with lots having better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Uhhh - all these erratas and FAQ are the literally the rule book. Yes "Beta rules" aren't actually rules yet - but judging by the last beta rules - they will be.

Judging by the last beta rules things will be adjusted if they're not working - like smite nerf for Grey Knights and Tzeentch.

Smite nerf was not necessary - every psyker in the game went up points basically - or was already overcosted. Nerfing smite by number of smites is kind of like reducing your chance to hit with a las cannon for every 4 shots you take with one. If you can - explain to me how it's different. Then I will literally destroy your argument with math - to prove it's no different.

Lascannons don't cause mortal wounds. Checkmate.

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

You can spam any unit. If you spam tactical Marines you’ll always be able to get games.

I mean even post FAQ you can run 30 reapers. I’ve played against the list and while the reapers are a big deal, without the spears and guardians reapers are not near so scary.

Breng77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

Um yes those are qualification of spam. The difference is the power of the unit being spammed.

They got pointed up so no one will play them anymore competitvely.

Lemondish wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Uhhh - all these erratas and FAQ are the literally the rule book. Yes "Beta rules" aren't actually rules yet - but judging by the last beta rules - they will be.

Judging by the last beta rules things will be adjusted if they're not working - like smite nerf for Grey Knights and Tzeentch.

Smite nerf was not necessary - every psyker in the game went up points basically - or was already overcosted. Nerfing smite by number of smites is kind of like reducing your chance to hit with a las cannon for every 4 shots you take with one. If you can - explain to me how it's different. Then I will literally destroy your argument with math - to prove it's no different.

Lascannons don't cause mortal wounds. Checkmate.

I know you are joking but heres the point. It doesn't matter that it's a mortal wound. FNP is an invunerable against mortals and you can get it in any army a 6+++ is very easy to aquire (often for free) - plus you can deny the power to begin with. It's never been OP except for when you could get 30 point maliefic lords. I mean...that was broken dude I admit. Plus even spiritseers at 45 points were too low - even as an Eldar player I can admit that. The neurothrope though at 70 always felt about right to me - and thats where they put the spirit seer. I mean if you really think about it - smite already got nerfed by over 100% on the malifec lord and nearly that much on the spirit seer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

Um yes those are qualification of spam. The difference is the power of the unit being spammed.

Then as I said you guys missed the point of the article entirely. At least by my reading it was “don’t just take 50 reapers, take other units to cover your bases in bad matchups and allow for board control etc.” I’m pretty sure no one ever has called 15 scouts in an army scout spam, or 20 tactical marines tactical marine spam. So apparently spam in the Dakka community is entirely based on if a unit is powerful and someone takes more than 1 or 2. Though you could have 20 reapers in 2 squads so maybe it is just taking redundancy in effective units. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen 3 Leman russes (or even 4) refered to as Leman ruse spam and that is more points than those 17 reapers. So as I said it is a matter of how you define spam and your definition isn’t one held by all not is it consistently applied.

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

Um yes those are qualification of spam. The difference is the power of the unit being spammed.

Then as I said you guys missed the point of the article entirely. At least by my reading it was “don’t just take 50 reapers, take other units to cover your bases in bad matchups and allow for board control etc.” I’m pretty sure no one ever has called 15 scouts in an army scout spam, or 20 tactical marines tactical marine spam. So apparently spam in the Dakka community is entirely based on if a unit is powerful and someone takes more than 1 or 2. Though you could have 20 reapers in 2 squads so maybe it is just taking redundancy in effective units. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen 3 Leman russes (or even 4) refered to as Leman ruse spam and that is more points than those 17 reapers. So as I said it is a matter of how you define spam and your definition isn’t one held by all not is it consistently applied.

Wow, you and I are in agreement here.

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

Um yes those are qualification of spam. The difference is the power of the unit being spammed.

Then as I said you guys missed the point of the article entirely. At least by my reading it was “don’t just take 50 reapers, take other units to cover your bases in bad matchups and allow for board control etc.” I’m pretty sure no one ever has called 15 scouts in an army scout spam, or 20 tactical marines tactical marine spam. So apparently spam in the Dakka community is entirely based on if a unit is powerful and someone takes more than 1 or 2. Though you could have 20 reapers in 2 squads so maybe it is just taking redundancy in effective units. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen 3 Leman russes (or even 4) refered to as Leman ruse spam and that is more points than those 17 reapers. So as I said it is a matter of how you define spam and your definition isn’t one held by all not is it consistently applied.

Spam is a bunch of the same unit being used. 5 squads of Tactical Marines is as much spam as 5 Hive Tyrants.

That's why the issue is unit price, not if the unit is being used a lot.

For the record as well, an army looks terrible when it's one of those one-of-everything armies.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Can't say its been a problem I've seen personally.
TS being able to through down so many psychic powers at undeniably ranges 24 full smites from 12" move models and rerolls the first fail with a 5++ was way more of an issue than IG taking something other than NLOS castles.

Wat? The shaman with a single cast per turn and a single reroll per game at 90 points and 4 wounds was the real problem?

The untargetable charictors with a 12inch move and advance was indead a problem when the run away from your charging guys and MW them to death and leave you the only option of cleansing the board of everything not a charictor while taking the MW.
I can't remeber anything having worse than a 5++ in the entire army with lots having better.

The Daemon Prince, Ahriman, and Magnus have a 4++. Everything else barring cultists and regular vehicles have a 5++.

You're literally the first person I see complain about Shamans in this way. It'd be way harder to get at a primaris psyker behind conscripts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

Um yes those are qualification of spam. The difference is the power of the unit being spammed.

Then as I said you guys missed the point of the article entirely. At least by my reading it was “don’t just take 50 reapers, take other units to cover your bases in bad matchups and allow for board control etc.” I’m pretty sure no one ever has called 15 scouts in an army scout spam, or 20 tactical marines tactical marine spam. So apparently spam in the Dakka community is entirely based on if a unit is powerful and someone takes more than 1 or 2. Though you could have 20 reapers in 2 squads so maybe it is just taking redundancy in effective units. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen 3 Leman russes (or even 4) refered to as Leman ruse spam and that is more points than those 17 reapers. So as I said it is a matter of how you define spam and your definition isn’t one held by all not is it consistently applied.

Spam is a bunch of the same unit being used. 5 squads of Tactical Marines is as much spam as 5 Hive Tyrants.

That's why the issue is unit price, not if the unit is being used a lot.

For the record as well, an army looks terrible when it's one of those one-of-everything armies.

That doesn’t answer why 3 Leman russes isn’t called out as spam but 17 dark reapers is. 3 Russes is more points than 17 reapers were at LVO. I have never once heard anyone look at a list with 3 russes and go “wow look at that Russ spam army.” Heck an entire army of russes rarely if ever gets called out as “spam”. Instead it is tank company. Which is fine, just point out the double standard that it isn’t about unit cost or number of units but instead based entirely on how OP a unit isn’t perceived to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for a one of everything army looking terrible, that really depends on the army IMO. I think orks can pull off a good looking mishmash force because they are orks, and they have larger squads. A force with like 60 Boyz, 30 Gretchen, 10 Nobz in a battle wagon, a gorkanaut etc can look ok. A similar force for marines a bit less so. Especially at 2k points at lower points I think “Highlander” armies can look better because they are a smaller strike force.

I don't even know what you are talking about bro. I used to spam strike squads back when GK could deep strike. No one complained about my 10+ strike squads I was putting out there (except this one slaneesh guy). Now I can't even play the unit with this busted FAQ.

The core changes themselves are fine, and I agree with most of his analysis. The problems start coming with how those core changes interact with individual armies, and how those armies interact with other armies.

Guard are the biggest offenders here, but then you have problems revolving around how split up the Dark Eldar book is, how utterly shafted the Inquisition (and its subsidiaries) continues to be, and countless other fringe cases that honestly should not be so fringe.

Ultimately though, I think 40k's alpha strike problem is only ever going to be properly solved by implementing some sort of system of alternating unit activation. Until then, the problems with alpha strike are going to constantly shift with the meta itself, and any fix will feel spotty and heavily reactionary, as opposed to being properly foundational. The constant unfocused arms-race to reinforce problems (Usain Bolt Krakalackin' Genestealers feel like a direct and poorly thought out response to gunline alpha strike that only goes to reinforce the need for turn 1 supremecy, for example) that GW feels the need to implement with each release does not help that either.

Basically, instead of realizing where they went wrong with the state of 8th edition and intentionally designing around it with later releases, developing a meta that can be more healthy once the strongest unhealthy parts are nerfed, GW decides to play ball with the unhealthy elements. Which itself leads to a further growth of these unhealthy states that grows to be a foundational problem that becomes much harder to properly excise.

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

Um yes those are qualification of spam. The difference is the power of the unit being spammed.

Then as I said you guys missed the point of the article entirely. At least by my reading it was “don’t just take 50 reapers, take other units to cover your bases in bad matchups and allow for board control etc.” I’m pretty sure no one ever has called 15 scouts in an army scout spam, or 20 tactical marines tactical marine spam. So apparently spam in the Dakka community is entirely based on if a unit is powerful and someone takes more than 1 or 2. Though you could have 20 reapers in 2 squads so maybe it is just taking redundancy in effective units. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen 3 Leman russes (or even 4) refered to as Leman ruse spam and that is more points than those 17 reapers. So as I said it is a matter of how you define spam and your definition isn’t one held by all not is it consistently applied.

Spam is a bunch of the same unit being used. 5 squads of Tactical Marines is as much spam as 5 Hive Tyrants.

That's why the issue is unit price, not if the unit is being used a lot.

For the record as well, an army looks terrible when it's one of those one-of-everything armies.

That doesn’t answer why 3 Leman russes isn’t called out as spam but 17 dark reapers is. 3 Russes is more points than 17 reapers were at LVO. I have never once heard anyone look at a list with 3 russes and go “wow look at that Russ spam army.” Heck an entire army of russes rarely if ever gets called out as “spam”. Instead it is tank company. Which is fine, just point out the double standard that it isn’t about unit cost or number of units but instead based entirely on how OP a unit isn’t perceived to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for a one of everything army looking terrible, that really depends on the army IMO. I think orks can pull off a good looking mishmash force because they are orks, and they have larger squads. A force with like 60 Boyz, 30 Gretchen, 10 Nobz in a battle wagon, a gorkanaut etc can look ok. A similar force for marines a bit less so. Especially at 2k points at lower points I think “Highlander” armies can look better because they are a smaller strike force.

It IS called spam. It just isn't talked about because the Russ isn't the worst offender.
It's kinda like if there were two offending smells but one was durian so you basically won't smell the other and therefore you're only talking about the durian. I can still assure you that the poop in that corner still smells though, even though we aren't talking about it.

Also NO Orks don't make it look good either. It doesn't look good or cohesive. Period.

Is there a transcript of nick’s q&a?

Spam isn't about models on the table but points spent.

So no, 20 tactical marines isn't spam. Its 260 points before weapons/upgrades etc. By contrast 5 Flyrants was... 900 or so (build depending?)

Having one in the list skews it more than the other. Now if you turned up with say 60 tactical marines or something you could accuse them of spam. It would also be rubbish though.

Around 500 points of Dark Reapers is probably borderline on being spam. 30 reapers certainly is. In the same way 3 Russ isn't spam but binging 10 obviously is.

That is more in my line of thinking, that true spam is either significantly high number of repeated units usually 5 or more (a 3 knight army is not something I would call knight spam) and/or a high percentage of the armies points being dedicated to one unit. So yes 5 flyrants at about half of a 2k list is spam, 10 russes would be spam as it is around 2k points, But to me taking the equivalent to around 3 or 4 min units of something is not spam, and something making up about 25% of your army is not what I would define the army by as far as calling it an x spam army. That would be like me taking 4 x 10 tactical marines and people saying “look at that tactical marine spam army”. Said no one ever because there is 1500 points left in the army. Tactical marine spam would be more like 80 marines making up like half the army.

That said if you view 3 or some unit and or 25% of an armies points being put into a single unit type as spam, then as I said you don’t view it the same way as plenty of other people and as such won’t understand what Nick was saying in the article, because essentially you think any redundancy is spam.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Uhhh - all these erratas and FAQ are the literally the rule book. Yes "Beta rules" aren't actually rules yet - but judging by the last beta rules - they will be.

Judging by the last beta rules things will be adjusted if they're not working - like smite nerf for Grey Knights and Tzeentch.

Smite nerf was not necessary - every psyker in the game went up points basically - or was already overcosted. Nerfing smite by number of smites is kind of like reducing your chance to hit with a las cannon for every 4 shots you take with one. If you can - explain to me how it's different. Then I will literally destroy your argument with math - to prove it's no different.

I think you misunderstood me here.
You said: The Beta-Rules are the rulebook as they weren't changed.

However, the smite-nerf obviousely was changed after being tested by the community.
So it's possible the current beta rules of Deep strike will be changed when included into the rules, it depends on the community.

If I follow the polls here on dakka though, there's a majority approving of the beta rules.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He definitely spammed reapers at LVO. If you want to pretend he didn't and wave your hands that is fine but a lot of us know when you are just blowing some more smoke.

Just so we’re clear taking 4 units (3 min units) is spam? 17 models. So if I bring 4 x 5 tactical marines that must be tactical marine spam. Or is it off points so he spend 479 points on those reapers less than 25% of his list. So 3 lascannon devastator squads must be devastator spam. I’m not pretending they were a small part of his list but compared to a lot of dealer lists he was hardly spamming out on reapers. Which was his point

Um yes those are qualification of spam. The difference is the power of the unit being spammed.

Then as I said you guys missed the point of the article entirely. At least by my reading it was “don’t just take 50 reapers, take other units to cover your bases in bad matchups and allow for board control etc.” I’m pretty sure no one ever has called 15 scouts in an army scout spam, or 20 tactical marines tactical marine spam. So apparently spam in the Dakka community is entirely based on if a unit is powerful and someone takes more than 1 or 2. Though you could have 20 reapers in 2 squads so maybe it is just taking redundancy in effective units. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen 3 Leman russes (or even 4) refered to as Leman ruse spam and that is more points than those 17 reapers. So as I said it is a matter of how you define spam and your definition isn’t one held by all not is it consistently applied.

Spam is a bunch of the same unit being used. 5 squads of Tactical Marines is as much spam as 5 Hive Tyrants.

That's why the issue is unit price, not if the unit is being used a lot.

For the record as well, an army looks terrible when it's one of those one-of-everything armies.

That doesn’t answer why 3 Leman russes isn’t called out as spam but 17 dark reapers is. 3 Russes is more points than 17 reapers were at LVO. I have never once heard anyone look at a list with 3 russes and go “wow look at that Russ spam army.” Heck an entire army of russes rarely if ever gets called out as “spam”. Instead it is tank company. Which is fine, just point out the double standard that it isn’t about unit cost or number of units but instead based entirely on how OP a unit isn’t perceived to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for a one of everything army looking terrible, that really depends on the army IMO. I think orks can pull off a good looking mishmash force because they are orks, and they have larger squads. A force with like 60 Boyz, 30 Gretchen, 10 Nobz in a battle wagon, a gorkanaut etc can look ok. A similar force for marines a bit less so. Especially at 2k points at lower points I think “Highlander” armies can look better because they are a smaller strike force.

It IS called spam. It just isn't talked about because the Russ isn't the worst offender.
It's kinda like if there were two offending smells but one was durian so you basically won't smell the other and therefore you're only talking about the durian. I can still assure you that the poop in that corner still smells though, even though we aren't talking about it.

Also NO Orks don't make it look good either. It doesn't look good or cohesive. Period.

So what you're saying is that 3+ of something is spam, no matter what it is. 3 tactical squads. 3 scout sentinels, 3 tanks. You're not being very clear here.

I had always thought spam was selecting a unit above all others and basing the majority of your list and your tactics around it. Flyrant and Dark Talon spam for example. Previously T'au Commander and drone spam.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm still confused as to how he thinks gunlines will have trouble doing exactly as much damage as they always did.

He doesn't.

To Nick Nanavati, gunlines didn't really exist in the meta he was factoring for. The high damage he's referring to comes from alpha strike deep strike assault/short range shooting.

I think it's important to note WHY gunlines don't exist - in part because they can't play the objectives well in ITC/Adepticon/NOVA.

Perhaps some factors will change enough to let them seep in, but we'll have to wait and see.

While I do agree with you the book missions leave a bit to be desired. I also feel like GW shouldn't be taking homebrew ITC style things into account when balancing their game. I would venture to say there is a much larger population of 40k players that only use the book missions rather than custom missions. Hell, these missions don't actually do anything to help with the balance they are just shifting whats op to something else.

I've also never understood why people think gunlines can't play objectives well. Almost every gunline I've ever played against in this game is still very mobile elements in their lists and could play the objectives just fine.

These changes also are not going to fix the alpha strike problem. They are merely going to change it from t1 deep striking to long range firepower lists. The first turn alpha strike has always been a huge factor in this game in the 10 years I have played.

All in all though it doesn't really matter what we think or not the changes are in place we all have to live with it and adapt. I'm still going to cry into my pillow at night about warptime though Rip tzaangors I barely knew ye!

I would be curious to see why ITC players don't think gunlines are going to dominate since they removed the one thing that melee armies had to counter them (although alpha deepstrike was still busted).

While Frontline Gaming and the rest of ITC are praising the FAQ and patting themselves on the back for helping to "fix" 40k, I want to see what the longterm changes are going to be since GW seems to be chasing their tail constantly without thinking of what their changes will do to the rest (you know, the big majority) of the game that isn't ITC tournaments.

I'm thiinking if proper terrain exiists and not the barren tables that I saw everywhere at Adepticon that gunlines shouldn't have a super easy time at all.

Of course thats a challenge in and of itself: providing proper terrain. And while planet bowling ball is the tournament standard, that is also the expected standard at many FLGS pick up games.