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 grouchoben wrote:
They also get T1 assault with a priest when you bundle them on a valk.

How?

Grav-Chute Insertion allows you do disembark at at any point of the Valkyries 20-45" movement if it moved more than 20".

Doesn't seem very good considering you can only fit 4 bullgryn in one, or 3 and a priest...

 peteralmo wrote:
Doesn't seem very good considering you can only fit 4 bullgryn in one, or 3 and a priest...

it isn't, honestly. Bullgryns are not that scary, and there's a reason despite all the mathhammer talk and outrage expressed on here about them, you basically never see them amounting to anything in competitive, even when pairing with Custodes where you could get their super-OP 2++ invuln.

They're slow, if you make them fast with a valk you're commiting a ton of points to getting a small number of them to where they're going totally unbuffed, where they will proceed to fail to deal basically any damage with their autocannon pillow fists. a squad of four bullgryn popping out of their valk on the charge deal a whopping, terrifying 2.8 wounds to MEQ, or 4.33 damage to a standard T7 3+ vehicle chassis.

Wow. I can hardly think of a dozen different units I could possibly muster for 400 points in any melee army that could possibly top that kind of horrifying, brutal damage output.

So you give them a 2++ with a dedicated custodes character who costs..however many points, I assume over 150, and a dedicated psyker wasting one of the best powers guard has at its disposal, and you take enough of them to kill a Rhino on the charge so they're a threat...that's, lets see, 8 of them. That's 600 points that's going to plotz down the field hoping that the enemy army doesn't have any kind of targeted mortal wounds output to pop that custode, maybe gets to fight something round three, and if it performs perfectly optimally has to stay in combat with enemy heavy vehicles for about four rounds of combat uninterrupted to hope to make its points back.

Damn. Guard so OP, absolute best at melee too! Oh wait no that's completely awful.

Guard are OP. Especially now. It would more clear at tournaments except time limits.

What does flyrant spam even do vs guard gunline anyway? Run the clock out, that's what. Because if it goes to six turns, they are tabled.

Martel732 wrote:
Guard are OP. Especially now. It would more clear at tournaments except time limits.

What does flyrant spam even do vs guard gunline anyway? Run the clock out, that's what. Because if it goes to six turns, they are tabled.

Guard are OP, because they have good guns, and they can ally with armies that have good melee (which is exactly where this meta is going to the second the first few pure guard gunline lists get slaughtered by reaver jetbikes and the like zipping across the board turn 1).

The idea that guard have good melee because bullgryns is a hilarious myth. Bullgryns are just not tournament quality, no matter how many angles you find to bend over backwards and kiss your butt to give them a 2++ invuln save for 200+ points of buffing units.

No, bullgryns are not really my concern. Agreed. Especially compared to grotesques.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guard are OP. Especially now. It would more clear at tournaments except time limits.

What does flyrant spam even do vs guard gunline anyway? Run the clock out, that's what. Because if it goes to six turns, they are tabled.

Guard are OP, because they have good guns, and they can ally with armies that have good melee (which is exactly where this meta is going to the second the first few pure guard gunline lists get slaughtered by reaver jetbikes and the like zipping across the board turn 1).

The idea that guard have good melee because bullgryns is a hilarious myth. Bullgryns are just not tournament quality, no matter how many angles you find to bend over backwards and kiss your butt to give them a 2++ invuln save for 200+ points of buffing units.

A single stratagem or psychic gives them 2++ save lol. Literally one of the strongest melle units in the game. They aren't utilized because they are just better off shooting you off the table - which they do.

The myth is that guard needs CC to compete - they don't. This isn't 7th edition - you just fall back and shoot things.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guard are OP. Especially now. It would more clear at tournaments except time limits.

What does flyrant spam even do vs guard gunline anyway? Run the clock out, that's what. Because if it goes to six turns, they are tabled.

Guard are OP, because they have good guns, and they can ally with armies that have good melee (which is exactly where this meta is going to the second the first few pure guard gunline lists get slaughtered by reaver jetbikes and the like zipping across the board turn 1).

The idea that guard have good melee because bullgryns is a hilarious myth. Bullgryns are just not tournament quality, no matter how many angles you find to bend over backwards and kiss your butt to give them a 2++ invuln save for 200+ points of buffing units.

A single stratagem or psychic gives them 2++ save lol. Literally one of the strongest melle units in the game. They aren't utilized because they are just better off shooting you off the table - which they do.

The myth is that guard needs CC to compete - they don't. This isn't 7th edition - you just fall back and shoot things.

No, it doesn't, and no, they aren't. Bullgryn start with either a 4++ (which means you need to use both Take Cover and Psychic Barrier on them every round to get them to that 2++) or a 2+ armor save by way of the Slabshield, which gives them +2 to all saves. So you take them with a Custodes Vexilla (who I just looked up, is 142 points) to get them a 5++ which goes up to 3++, and then you either use the stratagem or the power on them to get them that 2++ save. The opportunity cost for using either a big chunk of points or one of your best stratagems/psychic powers on a unit that simply isn't going to kill anything is too much to justify bringing bullgryn, and they have a pretty huge achilles heel in the matchup versus smitespam.

And even with all that, as I just explained, bullgryns do completely negligible damage against everything that isn't a terminator. And spoiler alert, everything is good at killing terminators. For 45 points a model you'd want to probably do more than 1.2 damage on average against a basic rhino, or half a space marine (and this is on the charge where they get a bonus attack).

You state things like "you only need shooting to compete in 8th edition" as if it's a fact with absolutely zero evidence to back it up. point to the tournament where a list doing that has won anything in the last several months. The most successful lists featuring guard we have seen recently and the lists we will continue to see are Guard backed up by flexible counter assault units that they can choose to fling into combat in a matchup where they face a gunline. Typically this means custodes or BA, we will see if the beta rules knock BA off (they still work in the counterassault rule because you can drop them into your deployment zone bottom of turn two to assault a unit that's charged your screen, but work much less in the offensive sense).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You guys adhere to some kind of bizarre guard-hating religion for some reason, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why.

We are experiencing a meta shift that will result in more gunline shooting, yes. This will probably mean more guard, yes, and possibly even the appearance of some pure guard in the short term as people overreact to the loss of deep strike turn 1 and think that means nobody will be able to get to them and mess them up.

But long term, I think this beta will affect the balance of Chaos and Aeldari armies appearing much more - less of the former, more of the latter. Ynnari got a way to access the Agents of Vect stratagem without taking a single tax model (Yvraine+3 Ravagers). Aeldari in general got the new Drukhari codex, with all its competitive tricks to stack onto existing CWE tricks. The third soup component for Eldar, Harlequins, hasn't even hit the board yet and we don't know what they bring to the table.

First turn pressure is not going to be gone at top tables. It's going to be different, but not gone by any means.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guard are OP. Especially now. It would more clear at tournaments except time limits.

What does flyrant spam even do vs guard gunline anyway? Run the clock out, that's what. Because if it goes to six turns, they are tabled.

Guard are OP, because they have good guns, and they can ally with armies that have good melee (which is exactly where this meta is going to the second the first few pure guard gunline lists get slaughtered by reaver jetbikes and the like zipping across the board turn 1).

The idea that guard have good melee because bullgryns is a hilarious myth. Bullgryns are just not tournament quality, no matter how many angles you find to bend over backwards and kiss your butt to give them a 2++ invuln save for 200+ points of buffing units.

A single stratagem or psychic gives them 2++ save lol. Literally one of the strongest melle units in the game. They aren't utilized because they are just better off shooting you off the table - which they do.

The myth is that guard needs CC to compete - they don't. This isn't 7th edition - you just fall back and shoot things.

No, it doesn't, and no, they aren't. Bullgryn start with either a 4++ (which means you need to use both Take Cover and Psychic Barrier on them every round to get them to that 2++) or a 2+ armor save by way of the Slabshield, which gives them +2 to all saves. So you take them with a Custodes Vexilla (who I just looked up, is 142 points) to get them a 5++ which goes up to 3++, and then you either use the stratagem or the power on them to get them that 2++ save. The opportunity cost for using either a big chunk of points or one of your best stratagems/psychic powers on a unit that simply isn't going to kill anything is too much to justify bringing bullgryn, and they have a pretty huge achilles heel in the matchup versus smitespam.

And even with all that, as I just explained, bullgryns do completely negligible damage against everything that isn't a terminator. And spoiler alert, everything is good at killing terminators. For 45 points a model you'd want to probably do more than 1.2 damage on average against a basic rhino, or half a space marine (and this is on the charge where they get a bonus attack).

You state things like "you only need shooting to compete in 8th edition" as if it's a fact with absolutely zero evidence to back it up. point to the tournament where a list doing that has won anything in the last several months. The most successful lists featuring guard we have seen recently and the lists we will continue to see are Guard backed up by flexible counter assault units that they can choose to fling into combat in a matchup where they face a gunline. Typically this means custodes or BA, we will see if the beta rules knock BA off (they still work in the counterassault rule because you can drop them into your deployment zone bottom of turn two to assault a unit that's charged your screen, but work much less in the offensive sense).

Sorry I misspoke - the stratagem is automatic - so all you need is a single psychic power to get a 2++ save. Custodes are also also good - but will probably cost you much more. Requiring their own detachment. We all know it's going to be the bikers and a sheild captain on bike. That's great and all - but for the cost of all that - you could just take a shadowsword. Why wouldn't you?

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guard are OP. Especially now. It would more clear at tournaments except time limits.

What does flyrant spam even do vs guard gunline anyway? Run the clock out, that's what. Because if it goes to six turns, they are tabled.

Guard are OP, because they have good guns, and they can ally with armies that have good melee (which is exactly where this meta is going to the second the first few pure guard gunline lists get slaughtered by reaver jetbikes and the like zipping across the board turn 1).

The idea that guard have good melee because bullgryns is a hilarious myth. Bullgryns are just not tournament quality, no matter how many angles you find to bend over backwards and kiss your butt to give them a 2++ invuln save for 200+ points of buffing units.

A single stratagem or psychic gives them 2++ save lol. Literally one of the strongest melle units in the game. They aren't utilized because they are just better off shooting you off the table - which they do.

The myth is that guard needs CC to compete - they don't. This isn't 7th edition - you just fall back and shoot things.

No, it doesn't, and no, they aren't. Bullgryn start with either a 4++ (which means you need to use both Take Cover and Psychic Barrier on them every round to get them to that 2++) or a 2+ armor save by way of the Slabshield, which gives them +2 to all saves. So you take them with a Custodes Vexilla (who I just looked up, is 142 points) to get them a 5++ which goes up to 3++, and then you either use the stratagem or the power on them to get them that 2++ save. The opportunity cost for using either a big chunk of points or one of your best stratagems/psychic powers on a unit that simply isn't going to kill anything is too much to justify bringing bullgryn, and they have a pretty huge achilles heel in the matchup versus smitespam.

And even with all that, as I just explained, bullgryns do completely negligible damage against everything that isn't a terminator. And spoiler alert, everything is good at killing terminators. For 45 points a model you'd want to probably do more than 1.2 damage on average against a basic rhino, or half a space marine (and this is on the charge where they get a bonus attack).

You state things like "you only need shooting to compete in 8th edition" as if it's a fact with absolutely zero evidence to back it up. point to the tournament where a list doing that has won anything in the last several months. The most successful lists featuring guard we have seen recently and the lists we will continue to see are Guard backed up by flexible counter assault units that they can choose to fling into combat in a matchup where they face a gunline. Typically this means custodes or BA, we will see if the beta rules knock BA off (they still work in the counterassault rule because you can drop them into your deployment zone bottom of turn two to assault a unit that's charged your screen, but work much less in the offensive sense).

Sorry I misspoke - the stratagem is automatic - so all you need is a single psychic power to get a 2++ save. Custodes are also also good - but will probably cost you much more. Requiring their own detachment. We all know it's going to be the bikers and a sheild captain on bike. That's great and all - but for the cost of all that - you could just take a shadowsword. Why wouldn't you?

Or a supreme command with 3 shield captains on bikes, but, semantics.

You take Custodes over a Shadowsword because if you have no counterassault element you will get fast assaulted and tied up, and if you face a pure gunline you can assault them and tie them up while your gunline goes to work.

Stygies chickenwalkers, blood angel death company, GK GMDKs, Custodes bikers, sisters with celestine - souping in a fast melee element that can also counter fast assault is the standard thing to pair with guard guns in the current meta. The beta rule does not change the advantage that those detachments grant you, and in fact, it makes a lot of them even better because guard are now even MORE of a CP battery for your Blood Angels/Custodes/whatever.

Unless you have actual evidence that the current meta will for some reason move away from that in favor of pure guard, don't go around asserting that.

How will you get tied up? They running up the field and charging you turn 2?

AM will still have scout sents
AM will still have 90+ infantry
They can still fall back and blow you away with tanks and under-costed shooting. (unless you can trap a model - which is highly unlikely) Counter charging unit would be useful here but that is about it's only use.

Maybe with the advent of chess clocks. It will become more apparent. Maybe if games were longer than 2 1/2 hours in tournaments - you'd see a lot more guard tabling.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How will you get tied up? They running up the field and charging you turn 1.

Fixed it so that you answered your own question. There are at least 3 armies in the game capable of Turn 1 Charges DZ to DZ, and Orks may make it 4 - and that's ignoring pre-turn specific unit abilities such as Sororitas Dominions and other infiltrators/scout-movers.

Scout sentinels do nothing if the other side has scouts/nurglings, or just things that move fast enough to cross the neutral zone. Tying up units in melee is borderline trivial to pull off especially now with more CP. beyond that if an have a mixed force and you fall back and shoot at my melee stuff, then you are not shooting at my guns, or getting out of your deployment zone.

I assume a list like this would be your Boogeyman new meta op? All catachan tactics, so the SS gets harker buff, psykers take the two obvious powers to buff it, infantry goes in front basilisks and shadowsword go in the back.

I just want to know whether we're on the same page here. Wouldn't want our shrodingers guard list to mysteriously sprout a half dozen more basilisks, or 3 wyverns, or whatever else.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How will you get tied up? They running up the field and charging you turn 1.

Fixed it so that you answered your own question. There are at least 3 armies in the game capable of Turn 1 Charges DZ to DZ, and Orks may make it 4 - and that's ignoring pre-turn specific unit abilities such as Sororitas Dominions and other infiltrators/scout-movers.

Armies that can trivially get turn 1 charges

Space Marines (of any flavor)
Blood Angles
Dark Angels
CSM
Ad Mech
Tyranids
GSC
Aeldari
Necrons
Orks

If you don’t have a forward screen almost every army has the ability to hit your army turn 1. For this purpose Scouts are better than anything in the AM book. If you are taking scouts anyway (and you should) it is basically a wash with Sentinels, so spending points on one or 2 more units (HQ captains at least) is a better army than pure AM because it addresses their weaknesses against turn 1 charges.

Don't forget Daemons (Slaaneshi daemons can get T1 charges with a good portion of their army fairly trivially).

1. You cannot move over and through scouts or scout sentinels.

2. Movement happens before shooting.

Getting a turn 1 charge is far more than just "I have enough movement therefore I charge."

As a competitive Tyranids player, good players will still have screens, but also move their scouts/whatever to stand between my melee and their primary screening line. I can't move over and through their models, and going around costs a lot of inches when my squad is 10+ models and the opponent understands and exploits the maximum allowed coherency.

Example:

Artillery


Guardsmen



Rling Rling Rling Rling Rling




Genestealers

Does this make sense? Turn 1 charges work if your opponent allows them. End of story.

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How will you get tied up? They running up the field and charging you turn 1.

Fixed it so that you answered your own question. There are at least 3 armies in the game capable of Turn 1 Charges DZ to DZ, and Orks may make it 4 - and that's ignoring pre-turn specific unit abilities such as Sororitas Dominions and other infiltrators/scout-movers.

Armies that can trivially get turn 1 charges

Space Marines (of any flavor)
Blood Angles
Dark Angels
CSM
Ad Mech
Tyranids
GSC
Aeldari
Necrons
Orks

If you don’t have a forward screen almost every army has the ability to hit your army turn 1. For this purpose Scouts are better than anything in the AM book. If you are taking scouts anyway (and you should) it is basically a wash with Sentinels, so spending points on one or 2 more units (HQ captains at least) is a better army than pure AM because it addresses their weaknesses against turn 1 charges.

Ahh yes - charge the gaurdsmen. Brilliant tactics guys. Brilliant.

Depends on what charges the Guardsmen. A max VV squad full of TH/SS? yeah, bad. A min ASM squad with maybe one power weapon? That helps.

 Marmatag wrote:
1. You cannot move over and through scouts or scout sentinels.

2. Movement happens before shooting.

Getting a turn 1 charge is far more than just "I have enough movement therefore I charge."

As a competitive Tyranids player, good players will still have screens, but also move their scouts/whatever to stand between my melee and their primary screening line. I can't move over and through their models, and going around costs a lot of inches when my squad is 10+ models and the opponent understands and exploits the maximum allowed coherency.

Example:

Artillery


Guardsmen



Rling Rling Rling Rling Rling




Genestealers

Does this make sense? Turn 1 charges work if your opponent allows them. End of story.

Exactly - and it's simple math to figure exactly the distance to place your guys to make turn 1 charge impossible. Only units like shining spears with quicken can truely make a turn 1 charge vs something important. We aren't concerned about being charged with scoutbikes charging guardsmen are we?

Breng77 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How will you get tied up? They running up the field and charging you turn 1.

Fixed it so that you answered your own question. There are at least 3 armies in the game capable of Turn 1 Charges DZ to DZ, and Orks may make it 4 - and that's ignoring pre-turn specific unit abilities such as Sororitas Dominions and other infiltrators/scout-movers.

Armies that can trivially get turn 1 charges

Space Marines (of any flavor)
Blood Angles
Dark Angels
CSM
Ad Mech
Tyranids
GSC
Aeldari
Necrons
Orks

If you don’t have a forward screen almost every army has the ability to hit your army turn 1. For this purpose Scouts are better than anything in the AM book. If you are taking scouts anyway (and you should) it is basically a wash with Sentinels, so spending points on one or 2 more units (HQ captains at least) is a better army than pure AM because it addresses their weaknesses against turn 1 charges.

And now that they can't do anything T1 for the most part, you just fall back with whatever Infantry was charged and then shoot the unit that charged. Screens are much less important now.

Bharring wrote:
Depends on what charges the Guardsmen. A max VV squad full of TH/SS? yeah, bad. A min ASM squad with maybe one power weapon? That helps.

Assault marines?!?!! HAHAHA.

 Marmatag wrote:
1. You cannot move over and through scouts or scout sentinels.

2. Movement happens before shooting.

Getting a turn 1 charge is far more than just "I have enough movement therefore I charge."

As a competitive Tyranids player, good players will still have screens, but also move their scouts/whatever to stand between my melee and their primary screening line. I can't move over and through their models, and going around costs a lot of inches when my squad is 10+ models and the opponent understands and exploits the maximum allowed coherency.

Example:

Artillery


Guardsmen



Rling Rling Rling Rling Rling




Genestealers

Does this make sense? Turn 1 charges work if your opponent allows them. End of story.

Not true it depends on your list. Things with fly can absolutely move “through” models. Scout sentinels are full countered by scouts/nurglings, as they can be forced to have no place to move up (need to stay 9” away). I largely agree that turn 1 charges need some planning or opponent failure (not taking scouts or nurglings of their own). But that was true before the current deepstrike change, and far more true for deepstrike than any other type of turn 1 charge. If you as guard have no scouts I just use mine to pin your screen into your deployment zone, then I have a clear deployment space for my raven guard, or run up spot for Forlorn fury, or White Scars/Ravenwing bikes. Same with Chaos and Nurglings. Shining spears with quicken easily jump your sentinels if they even get to scout before rangers go down. Nids probably have it a bit tougher, but you can also use sentinels to tie up in a forward position, then move on after getting through the sentinel.

Let me put it this way, if turn 1 charges are hard, they haven’t become any harder. If they are easy they are still easy. The deepstrike change hurts deepstrike shooting far more than turn 1 assault.

 Marmatag wrote:
1. You cannot move over and through scouts or scout sentinels.

2. Movement happens before shooting.

Getting a turn 1 charge is far more than just "I have enough movement therefore I charge."

As a competitive Tyranids player, good players will still have screens, but also move their scouts/whatever to stand between my melee and their primary screening line. I can't move over and through their models, and going around costs a lot of inches when my squad is 10+ models and the opponent understands and exploits the maximum allowed coherency.

Example:

Artillery


Guardsmen



Rling Rling Rling Rling Rling




Genestealers

Does this make sense? Turn 1 charges work if your opponent allows them. End of story.

The unit I'm looking at turn 1 charging is 12 ynnari Reaver jetbikes with Word of the Pheonix. A line of scouts or scout sentinels is going to have a tough time keeping me farther than 4" away from a line of guardsmen, or else I am going up and over them because I move 36", then I charge. With Attack Drugs, Ancestors Grace, and the Wych Cult of Strife stratagem popped on them, they kill on average 37 GEQ in a turn. Only a chunk piece of a normal sized GEQ screen to be sure, but it is not all that difficult for me to deal with the rest. Venoms with Shredders and the Obsidian Rose obsession return 1/3 of their value per turn at 15" away from GEQ, and I can remove 36 GEQ in the shooting phase with 6 of them.

That quickly becomes a lot of threats the gunline has to deal with, very fast: My ravagers and RWJFs are going to be taking apart anything they can draw LOS to, my venoms are going to be chewing up GEQ steadily and my Reavers have to be targeted or they can keep attacking and soulbursting and making a big old nuisance of themselves.

IG are functionally immune to melee. I've come to terms with this.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
1. You cannot move over and through scouts or scout sentinels.

2. Movement happens before shooting.

Getting a turn 1 charge is far more than just "I have enough movement therefore I charge."

As a competitive Tyranids player, good players will still have screens, but also move their scouts/whatever to stand between my melee and their primary screening line. I can't move over and through their models, and going around costs a lot of inches when my squad is 10+ models and the opponent understands and exploits the maximum allowed coherency.

Example:

Artillery


Guardsmen



Rling Rling Rling Rling Rling




Genestealers

Does this make sense? Turn 1 charges work if your opponent allows them. End of story.

Exactly - and it's simple math to figure exactly the distance to place your guys to make turn 1 charge impossible. Only units like shining spears with quicken can truely make a turn 1 charge vs something important. We aren't concerned about being charged with scoutbikes charging guardsmen are we?

I guarantee you cannot (without scouts) make turn 1 charge impossible, as for charging the screen, if I lock it up then the charge is worth it. If not I would not be sending things other than units meant to kill the screen. What I’m failing to see is how anything changed from before. Screens hurt turn 1 assault, yup that is a given. That was more true for deepstrike then any other type of turn 1 assault.

the_scotsman wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
They also get T1 assault with a priest when you bundle them on a valk.

ot sure if this is still the case but I remember someone showing a list of about 450pts or less hq units that can buff your guardsmen to be just as good as Ork boyz.

I mean, you can make them 3A S4 with catachans, a priest, and Straken, but they'll still be WS4+, T3, no mob rule and no whatever the rule is called that gives you 4A if you go above 20 boyz. You're also spending however many points, like 80 for straken or something and 30ish for the priest, just to make a couple 4 point models not quite as good as a 5 point model.

A few corrections here. Boyz are 6pts per model not 5. So there is 2 pts difference between guardsmen and boyz. 100 boyz can get you 150 extra guardsmen. That's a total of S4 450 cc attacks vs the Orks S4 400 so actually you get more attacks.

Also not that it matters, but if you like shoota boyz like me you can rarely only get 4A on multiple hordes if you pick Ghaz who is 200+pts extra.

Well, if you don't consider anything sub-200pts an Assault unit, it's really really easy to be screened out of assaulting.

Turn 1 charges mean nothing, though. The nerf was directed as shooters, and CC units just got flushed away along with them.