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Marmatag wrote: 1. You cannot move over and through scouts or scout sentinels.
2. Movement happens before shooting.
Getting a turn 1 charge is far more than just "I have enough movement therefore I charge."
As a competitive Tyranids player, good players will still have screens, but also move their scouts/whatever to stand between my melee and their primary screening line. I can't move over and through their models, and going around costs a lot of inches when my squad is 10+ models and the opponent understands and exploits the maximum allowed coherency.
Example:
Artillery
Guardsmen
Rling Rling Rling Rling Rling
Genestealers
Does this make sense? Turn 1 charges work if your opponent allows them. End of story.
The unit I'm looking at turn 1 charging is 12 ynnari Reaver jetbikes with Word of the Pheonix. A line of scouts or scout sentinels is going to have a tough time keeping me farther than 4" away from a line of guardsmen, or else I am going up and over them because I move 36", then I charge. With Attack Drugs, Ancestors Grace, and the Wych Cult of Strife stratagem popped on them, they kill on average 37 GEQ in a turn. Only a chunk piece of a normal sized GEQ screen to be sure, but it is not all that difficult for me to deal with the rest. Venoms with Shredders and the Obsidian Rose obsession return 1/3 of their value per turn at 15" away from GEQ, and I can remove 36 GEQ in the shooting phase with 6 of them.
That quickly becomes a lot of threats the gunline has to deal with, very fast: My ravagers and RWJFs are going to be taking apart anything they can draw LOS to, my venoms are going to be chewing up GEQ steadily and my Reavers have to be targeted or they can keep attacking and soulbursting and making a big old nuisance of themselves.
Yeah - you could do that - then you realize you just spent 300 points to kill 160 points of gaurdsmen and then get obliterated by the return fire. This is ofc assuming you were lucky enough to go first - didn't go first? Revers get by raped something as simple as mortars and manticores.
Martel732 wrote: IG are functionally immune to melee. I've come to terms with this.
My games have proven otherwise to me but sure. It just takes a turn to kill the screen.
It takes them a turn to kill half your army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:05:54
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.
Basilisks . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Basilisk, Heavy Support, Imperium, Vehicle . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
Heavy Weapons Squad . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support, Heavy Weapons Squad . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support, Heavy Weapons Squad . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support, Heavy Weapons Squad . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
I assume a list like this would be your Boogeyman new meta op? All catachan tactics, so the SS gets harker buff, psykers take the two obvious powers to buff it, infantry goes in front basilisks and shadowsword go in the back.
I just want to know whether we're on the same page here. Wouldn't want our shrodingers guard list to mysteriously sprout a half dozen more basilisks, or 3 wyverns, or whatever else.
Xeno, or anyone in the "guard are unstoppable" clique: Is this the kind of a list you are scared of?
I ask because, just like before, I'd like a starting point to discuss. We have a Shadowsword, which you mentioned earlier, 4 basilisks, 9 mortar teams (the maximum with rule of 3), 90 guardsmen which you mentioned, and the most logical (to me, at least) competitive units you'd probably take in a pure guard list.
I ask because this list is 2000 points, and (to me, at least) this list, and other lists like it, say exchanging the 400ish points of shadowsword for more artillery, don't really seem particularly scary as competitive aeldari.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:09:59
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
See, Aeldari players care when I kill their units. IG players just have 24 more copies of the same thing for 2 pts/ model. Because BS 4+ is so terrible. Feth GW and feth this FAQ.
Breng77 wrote: Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.
I've been practically tabled in a single turn before - DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Post us your list and your opponent list, because losing more than 400 points of models to a gunline seems mathematically impossible if you don't offer REALLY good targets to him.
Basilisks . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Basilisk, Heavy Support, Imperium, Vehicle . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
. . Basilisk: Heavy Bolter
Heavy Weapons Squad . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support, Heavy Weapons Squad . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support, Heavy Weapons Squad . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad . Categories:(REGIMENT), Astra Militarum, Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support, Heavy Weapons Squad . Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
I assume a list like this would be your Boogeyman new meta op? All catachan tactics, so the SS gets harker buff, psykers take the two obvious powers to buff it, infantry goes in front basilisks and shadowsword go in the back.
I just want to know whether we're on the same page here. Wouldn't want our shrodingers guard list to mysteriously sprout a half dozen more basilisks, or 3 wyverns, or whatever else.
Xeno, or anyone in the "guard are unstoppable" clique: Is this the kind of a list you are scared of?
I ask because, just like before, I'd like a starting point to discuss. We have a Shadowsword, which you mentioned earlier, 4 basilisks, 9 mortar teams (the maximum with rule of 3), 90 guardsmen which you mentioned, and the most logical (to me, at least) competitive units you'd probably take in a pure guard list.
I ask because this list is 2000 points, and (to me, at least) this list, and other lists like it, say exchanging the 400ish points of shadowsword for more artillery, don't really seem particularly scary as competitive aeldari.
Aliotac are OP too. -1 to hit on your whole army for free is frigen dumb. Yes - that is the type list I am scared of.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Yes, apparently a fair bit better than you. I’ve never gott n near tables in a single turn. Though you probably think I’m cheating because that hasn’t happened based on the fact that everything is a random dice fest.
Spoletta wrote: Post us your list and your opponent list, because losing more than 400 points of models to a gunline seems mathematically impossible if you don't offer REALLY good targets to him.
I've lost 400 pts of predators just from Russes/artillery before. Before I got to go.
Spoletta wrote: Post us your list and your opponent list, because losing more than 400 points of models to a gunline seems mathematically impossible if you don't offer REALLY good targets to him.
Sorry I don't play cityfight terrain in every game. Not offering targets is impossible.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Well taking marine vehicles is bad right now so I would advise against doing so their generally bad. Other than maybe the Razorback. Big models die too easily in this edition.
Spoletta wrote: You left 2 predators out of cover against guard?
I tried not to. Two were out of line of sight, and I ran out of LoS blockers for the other. We try to not to have tables where its easy to to hide tanks because.... IG.
Breng77 wrote: Yes, apparently a fair bit better than you. I’ve never gott n near tables in a single turn. Though you probably think I’m cheating because that hasn’t happened based on the fact that everything is a random dice fest.
LOL - you've never say...lost 4 tanks and 3 infantry units turn 1 against a shoot army before? You do realize it's possible for them to roll over average right?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Breng77 wrote: Well taking marine vehicles is bad right now so I would advise against doing so their generally bad. Other than maybe the Razorback. Big models die too easily in this edition.
So now we start qualifying it. Oh, marine vehicles are bad. Tell me how my 13 pt spankers and 18 pt spankers are so much better.
Breng77 wrote: Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.
I've been practically tabled in a single turn before - DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME?
You see, I ask, with the list I posted earlier there, because I do not see how the firepower of that list poses any kind of credible threat to tabling a competitive dark eldar list in any reasonable number of turns.
Assuming the scenario you just outlined occurs - I go second (which is less than half the time, I will always have +1 on the roll vs guard because..anyone would, really) - and the basilisks and mortars decide to attack my Reavers, they kill 8. Assuming I don't use the stratagem I have to make them -1 to hit, or have them in cover. 8/12 die, which definitely sorts out the unit. To 100% of the basilisks and mortars, i.e. all the upfront firepower the list has. The Shadowsword basically wipes a Ravager per turn its alive, that's the best target I have on the board for it. I assume it doesn't want to shoot at my RWJFs and risk hitting on 5s AND a 5++ invuln giving it unlucky rolls.
A ravager and 8 bikes does not seem like devastating, game-breaking upfront firepower.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Spoletta wrote: You left 2 predators out of cover against guard?
Edit: Also, fully decked predators are the definition of a good target. They are one of the most glass cannony model in the game.
Really - cause many gaurd players like to tell me that it's a good tank. Many of them also say the Russ sucks too.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Breng77 wrote: Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.
I've been practically tabled in a single turn before - DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME?
You see, I ask, with the list I posted earlier there, because I do not see how the firepower of that list poses any kind of credible threat to tabling a competitive dark eldar list in any reasonable number of turns.
Assuming the scenario you just outlined occurs - I go second (which is less than half the time, I will always have +1 on the roll vs guard because..anyone would, really) - and the basilisks and mortars decide to attack my Reavers, they kill 8. Assuming I don't use the stratagem I have to make them -1 to hit, or have them in cover. 8/12 die, which definitely sorts out the unit. To 100% of the basilisks and mortars, i.e. all the upfront firepower the list has. The Shadowsword basically wipes a Ravager per turn its alive, that's the best target I have on the board for it. I assume it doesn't want to shoot at my RWJFs and risk hitting on 5s AND a 5++ invuln giving it unlucky rolls.
A ravager and 8 bikes does not seem like devastating, game-breaking upfront firepower.
Drukhari have much better units for 8th ed than marines. This much is patently obvious to me. Raiders are the perfect transport because of cost/invuln/open top/movement. T5 is actually largely irrelevant.
Nope never have. Yes they can roll above average, that is significantly above average and many of my lists (other than sisters) don’t run tanks. 3 infantry units really isn’t that many points and it is pretty rare to lose all that turn 1 when they are in cover. Especially Ravenguard, that requires me to roll well below average and them to roll well above average.
Breng77 wrote: Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.
I've been practically tabled in a single turn before - DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME?
You see, I ask, with the list I posted earlier there, because I do not see how the firepower of that list poses any kind of credible threat to tabling a competitive dark eldar list in any reasonable number of turns.
Assuming the scenario you just outlined occurs - I go second (which is less than half the time, I will always have +1 on the roll vs guard because..anyone would, really) - and the basilisks and mortars decide to attack my Reavers, they kill 8. Assuming I don't use the stratagem I have to make them -1 to hit, or have them in cover. 8/12 die, which definitely sorts out the unit. To 100% of the basilisks and mortars, i.e. all the upfront firepower the list has. The Shadowsword basically wipes a Ravager per turn its alive, that's the best target I have on the board for it. I assume it doesn't want to shoot at my RWJFs and risk hitting on 5s AND a 5++ invuln giving it unlucky rolls.
A ravager and 8 bikes does not seem like devastating, game-breaking upfront firepower.
Drukhari have much better units for 8th ed than marines. This much is patently obvious to me. Raiders are the perfect transport because of cost/invuln/open top/movement. T5 is actually largely irrelevant.
So, guard are broken, OP, ridiculously disgusting and nobody can beat them....
Except for Alaitoc CWE which is also broken...
Except for DE which is also broken...
Anyone else also broken? Shall we fill out the list of "exactly the same armies who were also in the meta before the beta change"?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Breng77 wrote: Well taking marine vehicles is bad right now so I would advise against doing so their generally bad. Other than maybe the Razorback. Big models die too easily in this edition.
So now we start qualifying it. Oh, marine vehicles are bad. Tell me how my 13 pt spankers and 18 pt spankers are so much better.
They are more resilient to heavy weapons, easier to get in cover? Get chapter tactics, for BA can get FNP... a pred can die to 2 shots, the same points of marines never do the same.
Breng77 wrote: Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.
I've been practically tabled in a single turn before - DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME?
You see, I ask, with the list I posted earlier there, because I do not see how the firepower of that list poses any kind of credible threat to tabling a competitive dark eldar list in any reasonable number of turns.
Assuming the scenario you just outlined occurs - I go second (which is less than half the time, I will always have +1 on the roll vs guard because..anyone would, really) - and the basilisks and mortars decide to attack my Reavers, they kill 8. Assuming I don't use the stratagem I have to make them -1 to hit, or have them in cover. 8/12 die, which definitely sorts out the unit. To 100% of the basilisks and mortars, i.e. all the upfront firepower the list has. The Shadowsword basically wipes a Ravager per turn its alive, that's the best target I have on the board for it. I assume it doesn't want to shoot at my RWJFs and risk hitting on 5s AND a 5++ invuln giving it unlucky rolls.
A ravager and 8 bikes does not seem like devastating, game-breaking upfront firepower.
Drukhari have much better units for 8th ed than marines. This much is patently obvious to me. Raiders are the perfect transport because of cost/invuln/open top/movement. T5 is actually largely irrelevant.
So, guard are broken, OP, ridiculously disgusting and nobody can beat them....
Except for Alaitoc CWE which is also broken...
Except for DE which is also broken...
Anyone else also broken? Shall we fill out the list of "exactly the same armies who were also in the meta before the beta change"?
verdict is not out on DE yet - they have HQ issues. They are strong though.
The other 2 listed armies are most certainly OP though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:26:08
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Breng77 wrote: Then you are doing something wrong. I have never lost half my army to guard in a single turn. Either they have -1 to hit, or are in reserve, or are characters that cannot be targeted, or out of LOS, or 3+ saves in cover, or engaged in melee.
I've been practically tabled in a single turn before - DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME?
You see, I ask, with the list I posted earlier there, because I do not see how the firepower of that list poses any kind of credible threat to tabling a competitive dark eldar list in any reasonable number of turns.
Assuming the scenario you just outlined occurs - I go second (which is less than half the time, I will always have +1 on the roll vs guard because..anyone would, really) - and the basilisks and mortars decide to attack my Reavers, they kill 8. Assuming I don't use the stratagem I have to make them -1 to hit, or have them in cover. 8/12 die, which definitely sorts out the unit. To 100% of the basilisks and mortars, i.e. all the upfront firepower the list has. The Shadowsword basically wipes a Ravager per turn its alive, that's the best target I have on the board for it. I assume it doesn't want to shoot at my RWJFs and risk hitting on 5s AND a 5++ invuln giving it unlucky rolls.
A ravager and 8 bikes does not seem like devastating, game-breaking upfront firepower.
Drukhari have much better units for 8th ed than marines. This much is patently obvious to me. Raiders are the perfect transport because of cost/invuln/open top/movement. T5 is actually largely irrelevant.
So, guard are broken, OP, ridiculously disgusting and nobody can beat them....
Except for Alaitoc CWE which is also broken...
Except for DE which is also broken...
Anyone else also broken? Shall we fill out the list of "exactly the same armies who were also in the meta before the beta change"?
Admittedly, it's looking like more a marine problem. I find Alaitoc Eldar the easiest of those three, because their models are the most expensive. To me, there's a direct correlation with how cheap your average model is this edition.
Breng77 wrote: Well taking marine vehicles is bad right now so I would advise against doing so their generally bad. Other than maybe the Razorback. Big models die too easily in this edition.
So now we start qualifying it. Oh, marine vehicles are bad. Tell me how my 13 pt spankers and 18 pt spankers are so much better.
They are more resilient to heavy weapons, easier to get in cover? Get chapter tactics, for BA can get FNP... a pred can die to 2 shots, the same points of marines never do the same.
Said marines also don't do anything meaningful in the game for their cost.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 17:27:20
