One of the Biggest Problems with Tactical Reserve Beta Rule - Big FAQ

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Scott-S6**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:

The problem isn't that transports don't work, the problem is that you are taking a single huge obvious target.

There is very little in the game that isn't going to die in one turn if your opponent devotes his while army to killing it.

You can just also make your post say, "I didn't look at the price of anything in the Necron codex" so people understand why your post is super silly.

So there aren't cheaper transport options?

The monolith is perfectly resilient for its points but like any other single model obvious target it will always get focused to death.

**Pancakey**

8th is such a hilariously sad thing to watch unfold.

At relase "rule a is bad! Introducing rule x!"
A month later "rule x is bad! Introducing rule a!"
Continue ad nauseum.

**Daedalus81**

Pancakey wrote:
8th is such a hilariously sad thing to watch unfold.

At relase "rule a is bad! Introducing rule x!"
A month later "rule x is bad! Introducing rule a!"
Continue ad nauseum.

Your "analysis" is incorrect.

"Rule A is not fun. We'll remove parts 1 (rolling for reserves) and 2 (deepstrike mishaps). Additionally we'll adjust part 3 (reserves turn 2 forward)."

Later on...

"Well, part 3 along with removing part 1 and 2 seems to have swung the balance too far in one direction. Let's keep it, but add a part 4 conditional (deepstrike in your own zone turn 1)."

The horror. I'm heading over to ebay right now to sell all my stuff.

**Pancakey**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
8th is such a hilariously sad thing to watch unfold.

At relase "rule a is bad! Introducing rule x!"
A month later "rule x is bad! Introducing rule a!"
Continue ad nauseum.

Your "analysis" is incorrect.

"Rule A is not fun. We'll remove parts 1 (rolling for reserves) and 2 (deepstrike mishaps). Additionally we'll adjust part 3 (reserves turn 2 forward)."

Later on...

"Well, part 3 along with removing part 1 and 2 seems to have swung the balance too far in one direction. Let's keep it, but add a part 4 conditional (deepstrike in your own zone turn 1)."

The horror. I'm heading over to ebay right now to sell all my stuff.

8th has some hilariously bad design choices.

Who would have thought that deepstriking everything turn one with NO DOWNSIDE would be op????

**Daedalus81**

Pancakey wrote:

8th has some hilariously bad design choices.

Who would have thought that deepstriking everything turn one with NO DOWNSIDE would be op????

And yet the community, in its infinite wisdom, did not jump on that bandwagon with the onset of 8th either. Rather it was RG, Conscripts, Stormravens, and Asscans. It wasn't until Flyrants that we truly witnessed the issue - people who took cheap screens were dealing with scions and other crap just fine.

**Arachnofiend**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can just also make your post say, "I didn't look at the price of anything in the Necron codex" so people understand why your post is super silly.

I don't consider 160 for a flyer that can move 60" and drop a unit 1" away from the enemy to be a poor deal.

With Night Scythes you would have to take three of them to prevent your units from getting trapped on the tomb world. Emergency Invasion Beams doesn't work on turn one because of the FAQ. Sooo, 480 points to transport a unit, and you get the shooting power of a little more than 12 immortals (you have that many shots but S7 matters so it's not quite that bad).

**Daedalus81**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You can just also make your post say, "I didn't look at the price of anything in the Necron codex" so people understand why your post is super silly.

I don't consider 160 for a flyer that can move 60" and drop a unit 1" away from the enemy to be a poor deal.

With Night Scythes you would have to take three of them to prevent your units from getting trapped on the tomb world. Emergency Invasion Beams doesn't work on turn one because of the FAQ. Sooo, 480 points to transport a unit, and you get the shooting power of a little more than 12 immortals (you have that many shots but S7 matters so it's not quite that bad).

But then you can deploy them out of the range of their anti-tank and fly in. You'll still have to take a round of shooting, but they're -1 to hit and against any S8/S9 guns the T6 doesn't really matter. And balance that with their need to shoot any doomsday arks, heavy destroyers, etc.

**KurreLurre**

Pancakey wrote:
8th is such a hilariously sad thing to watch unfold.

At relase "rule a is bad! Introducing rule x!"
A month later "rule x is bad! Introducing rule a!"
Continue ad nauseum.

Feels good to be vindicated

**An Actual Englishman**

KurreLurre wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
8th is such a hilariously sad thing to watch unfold.

At relase "rule a is bad! Introducing rule x!"
A month later "rule x is bad! Introducing rule a!"
Continue ad nauseum.

Feels good to be vindicated

Vindicated implies any of the above rubbish is true. Which it isn't.

**SemperMortis**

Ice_can wrote:

You missed the point, I don't have a provlem with it but everyones saying every unit can just walk out of combat, which is clearly not true if you can lock units in CC.

The issue with adding an addition CC round to units when their fallen back from is that few units can move over 6 inches, if they get a whole fight phase the can pile in 3 and consolidate 3 to be back into CC mean that falling back is pointless.

Every unit can in fact walk out of close combat, there is ZERO downside to it for a number of units and/or abilities, there is a minor downside to some armies and units (Not being able to assault the next turn) and a minor to moderate downside (Depending on the unit) to the rest (No shooting or assault).

So again, every unit CAN disengage and run away from CC, I think your problem is that you don't like the idea that there is any downside at all to falling back. I already have to walk my army up the board for at least 2 full shooting phases, not being able to return fire or harm you in anyway, and you think its not fair that your unit doesn't get to shoot if it runs away from my unit AFTER i finally get into CC with it? Ridiculous

**Ice_can**

SemperMortis wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

You missed the point, I don't have a provlem with it but everyones saying every unit can just walk out of combat, which is clearly not true if you can lock units in CC.

The issue with adding an addition CC round to units when their fallen back from is that few units can move over 6 inches, if they get a whole fight phase the can pile in 3 and consolidate 3 to be back into CC mean that falling back is pointless.

Every unit can in fact walk out of close combat, there is ZERO downside to it for a number of units and/or abilities, there is a minor downside to some armies and units (Not being able to assault the next turn) and a minor to moderate downside (Depending on the unit) to the rest (No shooting or assault).

So again, every unit CAN disengage and run away from CC, I think your problem is that you don't like the idea that there is any downside at all to falling back. I already have to walk my army up the board for at least 2 full shooting phases, not being able to return fire or harm you in anyway, and you think its not fair that your unit doesn't get to shoot if it runs away from my unit AFTER i finally get into CC with it? Ridiculous

1. Easy on the projecting
2. You might want to check the rules before you start ranting

Models can't move through other models in 8th so if you can place 3 models in base to base with an enemy model. They can't as you say just disengage and runaway.
Thats the way it's been since the start of 8th, the only exception is models with the fly keyword who can move over models.

Only fly keyword models can leave CC without penalties

Why are you walking a Close combat only army across the board on foot like a idiot. If your going to play a CC onlu army atleast play it smart before you have a hissy fit about loosing.

Heck my marine list, and when I play my buddies choas can both make CC turn 1. My tau list could do it aswell if charging tau into CC was an even remotely good idea.

The problem with giving out a free combat phase when a unit moves is as follows
1 few infanty have a movement of 7+ inchs so the can only fall back 6 or less inchs.
2 the unit you just fellback from can pile in 3 inches fight no-one then consolidate 3 inches. A total move of 6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit.
The chasing unit is now back within 1inch and once again can't be interacted with.

This just removes fallback as a mechanic completely from the game.
This is 40K not AOS which is what your asking for as it just descends into one maybe two mass brawls untill someones dead.
No objectives just a big drunken punch up. That has never and should never be what 40k is reduced to.

**SHUPPET**

Purifying Tempest wrote:
IG has literally been shooting into my deployment zone since I began playing 40K... I still manage to do 50/50 or better against them without resorting to sleazy deep strike trickery.

You made your account in '17 and you play Eldar, so yeah it's really not that surprising that you don't need to rely on DS assaults to go 50/50 with Guard. Just remember that not everyone plays your army.

**SemperMortis**

Ice_can wrote:

Every unit can in fact walk out of close combat, there is ZERO downside to it for a number of units and/or abilities, there is a minor downside to some armies and units (Not being able to assault the next turn) and a minor to moderate downside (Depending on the unit) to the rest (No shooting or assault).
So again, every unit CAN disengage and run away from CC, I think your problem is that you don't like the idea that there is any downside at all to falling back. I already have to walk my army up the board for at least 2 full shooting phases, not being able to return fire or harm you in anyway, and you think its not fair that your unit doesn't get to shoot if it runs away from my unit AFTER i finally get into CC with it? Ridiculous

1. Easy on the projecting
2. You might want to check the rules before you start ranting
Model can't move through other models in 8th so if you can place 3 models in base to base with an enemy model. They can't as you say just disengage and runaway.
Thats the way it's been since the start of 8th, the only exception is models with the fly keyword who can move over models.
Only fly keyword models can leave CC without penalties
Why are you walking a Close combat only army across the board on foot like a idiot. If your going to play a CC onlu army atleast play it smart before you have a hissy fit about loosing.
Heck my marine list, and when I play my buddies choas can both make CC turn 1. My tau list could do it aswell if charging tau into CC was an even remotely good idea.
The problem with giving out a free combat phase when a unit moves is as follows
1 few infanty have a movement of 7+ inchs so the can only fall back 6 or less inchs.
2 the unit you just fellback from can pile in 3 inches fight no-one then consolidate 3 inches. A total move of 6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit.
The chasing unit is now back within 1inch and once again can't be interacted with.
This just removes fallback as a mechanic completely from the game.
This is 40K not AOS which is what your asking for as it just descends into one maybe two mass brawls untill someones dead.
No objectives just a big drunken punch up. That has never and should never be what 40k is reduced to.

**kombatwombat**

Ice_can wrote:

The problem with giving out a free combat phase when a unit moves is as follows
1 few infanty have a movement of 7+ inchs so the can only fall back 6 or less inchs.
2 the unit you just fellback from can pile in 3 inches fight no-one then consolidate 3 inches. A total move of 6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit.
The chasing unit is now back within 1inch and once again can't be interacted with.

This just removes fallback as a mechanic completely from the game.

...which is exactly why several of us have suggested that when a unit falls back, the other unit gets to attack them but not pile in or consolidate.

Also, how else do you propose melee units get into position other than walking? They can’t deep strike turn 1 any more, if they deep strike turn 2 their opponent has had 1-2 movement phases to spread their screens out so they’re going to struggle to close with their real targets, which leaves transports. These generally aren’t fantastic either since a skilled player with a gun line will focus down the transports first, killing 1/6 of the unit inside, potentially scattering mortal wounds about and forcing the units inside to walk anyway. It’s all well and good to say ‘well, if they’re shooting your transports they’re not shooting your other (ranged) units’, but a good player will realise that the shooting elements of your combined arms force can’t cripple their gunline in one or two turns.

**mchammadad**

Ice_can wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

You missed the point, I don't have a provlem with it but everyones saying every unit can just walk out of combat, which is clearly not true if you can lock units in CC.

The issue with adding an addition CC round to units when their fallen back from is that few units can move over 6 inches, if they get a whole fight phase the can pile in 3 and consolidate 3 to be back into CC mean that falling back is pointless.

Every unit can in fact walk out of close combat, there is ZERO downside to it for a number of units and/or abilities, there is a minor downside to some armies and units (Not being able to assault the next turn) and a minor to moderate downside (Depending on the unit) to the rest (No shooting or assault).

So again, every unit CAN disengage and run away from CC, I think your problem is that you don't like the idea that there is any downside at all to falling back. I already have to walk my army up the board for at least 2 full shooting phases, not being able to return fire or harm you in anyway, and you think its not fair that your unit doesn't get to shoot if it runs away from my unit AFTER i finally get into CC with it? Ridiculous

1. Easy on the projecting
2. You might want to check the rules before you start ranting

Models can't move through other models in 8th so if you can place 3 models in base to base with an enemy model. They can't as you say just disengage and runaway.
Thats the way it's been since the start of 8th, the only exception is models with the fly keyword who can move over models.

Only fly keyword models can leave CC without penalties

Why are you walking a Close combat only army across the board on foot like a idiot. If your going to play a CC onlu army atleast play it smart before you have a hissy fit about loosing.

Heck my marine list, and when I play my buddies choas can both make CC turn 1. My tau list could do it aswell if charging tau into CC was an even remotely good idea.

The problem with giving out a free combat phase when a unit moves is as follows
1 few infanty have a movement of 7+ inchs so the can only fall back 6 or less inchs.
2 the unit you just fellback from can pile in 3 inches fight no-one then consolidate 3 inches. A total move of 6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit.
The chasing unit is now back within 1inch and once again can't be interacted with.

This just removes fallback as a mechanic completely from the game.
This is 40K not AOS which is what your asking for as it just descends into one maybe two mass brawls untill someones dead.
No objectives just a big drunken punch up. That has never and should never be what 40k is reduced to.

SemperMortis wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

1: not projecting, I am answering your statement with my opinion based on countless games.
2: I am assuming you mean Rule #1? I haven't in anyway violated it, I don't resort to ad hominem like how you said "like an idiot" or "Have a hissy fit".

Now as to why I am walking up the board? because I play orkz. None of our transports are worth taking and beyond stormboyz we don't have any good assault units in the entire army beyond Boyz. As for guns well we have KMKs and that is about it. SO why am I walking up the table "like an idiot" because its literally the only way to get my army into CC beyond jumping 1 unit Via "Da Jump" each turn.

So why is your suggestion being ignored? Because to surround that model you have to get a good charge and then get lucky with enemy spacing to get a good pile in. Of course all of this is useless because the opponent gets to choose which models I kill in CC so guess who they choose 9 times out of 10? The models that are trapped. You might also want to double check the rules because I don't know where you see me getting to pile in against nobody and then consolidate 3 inches. Falling back happens during your opponents turn so if the assault phase starts with nobody in 1in then combat has ended, you don't get to do anything at that point.

kombatwombat wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

The problem with giving out a free combat phase when a unit moves is as follows
1 few infanty have a movement of 7+ inchs so the can only fall back 6 or less inchs.
2 the unit you just fellback from can pile in 3 inches fight no-one then consolidate 3 inches. A total move of 6 inches towards the nearest enemy unit.
The chasing unit is now back within 1inch and once again can't be interacted with.

This just removes fallback as a mechanic completely from the game.

...which is exactly why several of us have suggested that when a unit falls back, the other unit gets to attack them but not pile in or consolidate.

Also, how else do you propose melee units get into position other than walking? They can’t deep strike turn 1 any more, if they deep strike turn 2 their opponent has had 1-2 movement phases to spread their screens out so they’re going to struggle to close with their real targets, which leaves transports. These generally aren’t fantastic either since a skilled player with a gun line will focus down the transports first, killing 1/6 of the unit inside, potentially scattering mortal wounds about and forcing the units inside to walk anyway. It’s all well and good to say ‘well, if they’re shooting your transports they’re not shooting your other (ranged) units’, but a good player will realise that the shooting elements of your combined arms force can’t cripple their gunline in one or two turns.

I run Mono khorne daemons, 60% of my army is 6" movement and we get no transports at all, we are only foot slogging.

You obviously don't know how combat or wound allocation works in this edition. Because it is almost impossible to stop your opponent from falling back, even if you surround them from two sides, falling back can still happen if you have only 1 or two models, even if their surrounded.

Take a classic box hostage marneuver, since pile in and consolidate are optional lets say Unit 1, which is in the front and one side of enemy unit 1 is supported by unit 2 who is behind enemy unit 1, completing a box in. If enemy unit one only has 1 or 2 units left after both units fought then they can still fall back to the center of the box, depending on how many models unit 1 destroyed. It is insane to think that a one model unit that was given say an auto pass or something could just walk slightly into the center of all of the units and count as not being in CC. And then everything around them shoots everything and wipes out unit 1 and 2.

This is possible, very unlikely but still possible.

Fall back as a mechanic is crazy strong. Just giving units the ability to disengage from a melee unit immiediately invalidates that melee unit, making them open to any form of counterattack without any chance of retaliation, there is a reason why units that hinder or prevent falling back this edition are considered the most powerful melee units (Wyches,Fiends of Slanesh, Skarbrand)

Fall back will never be removed as a mechanic, it is too powerful not to be used. I agree that pile in and consolidate on the strike back might sound powerful, but remember that this is the movement phase for all the players units. If you dont want to get charged then bloody advance your asses out of the consolidation. Again tactics people.

This idea of a free strike phase if they fall back actually sounds rather good, because people actually have to decide do they risk keeping units next to the unit that is falling back? or do they fall back now and try and get them in the shooting phase. The fact that people forget that this is happening in the PLAYERS MOVEMENT is mind boggling, If i didn't want my non chaft units to get chopped up, i would move them FIRST before i fell back with the chaff unit. Cause in reality a melee army at most can probably only move 3" cause pile in and consolidate is weird.

**Lemondish**

SemperMortis wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.
and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

Learn to surround models, guys. It's really not that hard.

**kombatwombat**

Lemondish wrote:

Learn to surround models, guys. It's really not that hard.

Ehhh it’s not always that easy or even possible either. Particularly for elite melee armies, of which there are many.

Also remember that morale happens after consolidation. A savvy opponent will use casualty removal, their own pile in and consolidation, morale casualties and even unit placement to block hostage taking. Besides which, hostage taking is a grotesquely gamey mechanic; I hope we can do better than depending on that for the rules to work.

**SHUPPET**

Lemondish wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.
and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

Learn to surround models, guys. It's really not that hard.

.... how on earth do you come to this conclusion that people aren't surrounding models? Why would anyone be choosing NOT to do so? The DECISION to surround them is not holding back anybody's army, its the fact that you don't always get to do this

**Daedalus81**

kombatwombat wrote:
Lemondish wrote:

Learn to surround models, guys. It's really not that hard.

Ehhh it’s not always that easy or even possible either. Particularly for elite melee armies, of which there are many.

Also remember that morale happens after consolidation. A savvy opponent will use casualty removal, their own pile in and consolidation, morale casualties and even unit placement to block hostage taking. Besides which, hostage taking is a grotesquely gamey mechanic; I hope we can do better than depending on that for the rules to work.

That's the tricky part - you take a hostage of a unit you did not charge.

**kombatwombat**

Daedalus81 wrote:

That's the tricky part - you take a hostage of a unit you did not charge.

I realised as much, but again, a well-piloted army will place their units in such a way as to make this difficult. Again, this is much harder for elite armies, as you require at least 3 models to take a hostage, plus probably another model or two daisy chaining back to the rest of their squad. Elite assault armies can’t afford to have 4 or 5 models in a unit tied up not able to attack - they start running too short of volume of attacks to kill the unit they charged. A smart opponent will then pile in and consolidate into base-to-base contact to lock the assault unit in place. If they don’t have the sheer volume of attacks to clear the screening units they’re in combat with during their opponent’s Assault phase they’re stuffed.

I mean sure, some armies suffer more from this than others. But the argument is essentially ‘assault armies are hurt badly by the Fall Back rule, but it’s ok because some of those assault armies can sometimes use a grotesquely gamey sequence of mechanics to stop it.’ I mean, really? That’s not ok.

**Mchagen**

SHUPPET wrote:
Purifying Tempest wrote:
IG has literally been shooting into my deployment zone since I began playing 40K... I still manage to do 50/50 or better against them without resorting to sleazy deep strike trickery.

You made your account in '17 and you play Eldar, so yeah it's really not that surprising that you don't need to rely on DS assaults to go 50/50 with Guard. Just remember that not everyone plays your army.

Don't assume a person's account has any relevance to when they started playing. For example, I started with GW gaming long before this site was created, but I have a 2011 creation date.

**SHUPPET**

Mchagen wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Purifying Tempest wrote:
IG has literally been shooting into my deployment zone since I began playing 40K... I still manage to do 50/50 or better against them without resorting to sleazy deep strike trickery.

You made your account in '17 and you play Eldar, so yeah it's really not that surprising that you don't need to rely on DS assaults to go 50/50 with Guard. Just remember that not everyone plays your army.

Don't assume a person's account has any relevance to when they started playing. For example, I started with GW gaming long before this site was created, but I have a 2011 creation date.

Yeah but that combined with his statement leads it to be a much more likely chance that he's a newer player. Not that I can ever remember a time that Eldar was relying on "deepstriking shenanigans" just to have a chance against Guard.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Lemondish wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.
and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

Learn to surround models, guys. It's really not that hard.

You can't surround models every single time, especially if you don't play something like Orks and Tyranids. Then what if the opponent left no space to do that in the first place?

**Ice_can**

mchammadad wrote:

...which is exactly why several of us have suggested that when a unit falls back, the other unit gets to attack them but not pile in or consolidate.

Also, how else do you propose melee units get into position other than walking? They can’t deep strike turn 1 any more, if they deep strike turn 2 their opponent has had 1-2 movement phases to spread their screens out so they’re going to struggle to close with their real targets, which leaves transports. These generally aren’t fantastic either since a skilled player with a gun line will focus down the transports first, killing 1/6 of the unit inside, potentially scattering mortal wounds about and forcing the units inside to walk anyway. It’s all well and good to say ‘well, if they’re shooting your transports they’re not shooting your other (ranged) units’, but a good player will realise that the shooting elements of your combined arms force can’t cripple their gunline in one or two turns.

I run Mono khorne daemons, 60% of my army is 6" movement and we get no transports at all, we are only foot slogging.

You obviously don't know how combat or wound allocation works in this edition. Because it is almost impossible to stop your opponent from falling back, even if you surround them from two sides, falling back can still happen if you have only 1 or two models, even if their surrounded.

Take a classic box hostage marneuver, since pile in and consolidate are optional lets say Unit 1, which is in the front and one side of enemy unit 1 is supported by unit 2 who is behind enemy unit 1, completing a box in. If enemy unit one only has 1 or 2 units left after both units fought then they can still fall back to the center of the box, depending on how many models unit 1 destroyed. It is insane to think that a one model unit that was given say an auto pass or something could just walk slightly into the center of all of the units and count as not being in CC. And then everything around them shoots everything and wipes out unit 1 and 2.

This is possible, very unlikely but still possible.

Fall back as a mechanic is crazy strong. Just giving units the ability to disengage from a melee unit immiediately invalidates that melee unit, making them open to any form of counterattack without any chance of retaliation, there is a reason why units that hinder or prevent falling back this edition are considered the most powerful melee units (Wyches,Fiends of Slanesh, Skarbrand)

Fall back will never be removed as a mechanic, it is too powerful not to be used. I agree that pile in and consolidate on the strike back might sound powerful, but remember that this is the movement phase for all the players units. If you dont want to get charged then bloody advance your asses out of the consolidation. Again tactics people.

This idea of a free strike phase if they fall back actually sounds rather good, because people actually have to decide do they risk keeping units next to the unit that is falling back? or do they fall back now and try and get them in the shooting phase. The fact that people forget that this is happening in the PLAYERS MOVEMENT is mind boggling, If i didn't want my non chaft units to get chopped up, i would move them FIRST before i fell back with the chaff unit. Cause in reality a melee army at most can probably only move 3" cause pile in and consolidate is weird.

I don't have a rule book to check but I'm fairly sure you can't advance when falling back, though so far it's never been soemthing that I've need to be 100% sure of.

I dont have a problem with the attack part its the additional movement of pile in and consolidat allowing you to negate fallingback I object too.

Bezerkers are really powerful becuase of the ability of their fight twice ability and using it to cover a lot of ground in the fight phase.
I think I've managed to squeeze about 8 inchs out of them before as you do have to zig zag abit.

**HMint**

You are all arguing about how hard it is to take a hostage, but do you feel like the way the rules require this and how it is implemented is fine?

GW was all about streamlining the game, but then in the fight phase there are multiple movements during the phase for each unit involved and for each movement you have to carefully measure the distance for every single individual model to every surrounding model.
And all those measurements typically are in the '0.1 of an inch' range, making them super cumbersome.

How is that streamlined? 2nd edition 1v1 fights were more streamlined than this.

**Lemondish**

SHUPPET wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
A full additional fight phase worth of punches could be too punishing, but if it was hitting on 6's then it could be a reasonable suggestion.
and leaving your CC unit exposed to the entire armies shooting phase is not punishing? Did you forget that said CC unit just walked itself up the board for a minimum of 2 full shooting phases to even get into assault? the fact that you even get the chance to walk out of CC is ridiculous.

Learn to surround models, guys. It's really not that hard.

.... how on earth do you come to this conclusion that people aren't surrounding models? Why would anyone be choosing NOT to do so? The DECISION to surround them is not holding back anybody's army, its the fact that you don't always get to do this

Clearly the bad decisions you guys are making here is that you're declaring multi charges all day long. That's the only way I can understand how you aren't piling in and consolidating around a target you didn't declare for. Because you can. The charge move has to stop >1" away, but pile in doesn't. Consolidate doesn't. That's why you strike at the seams of these screens. Can't take casualties from a unit that never took damage, and you don't take morale losses from a unit that didn't take damage. You've now locked that unit down and stopped that army from gaining more board control than you.

**SHUPPET**

Lemondish wrote:

Clearly the bad decisions you guys are making here is that you're declaring multi charges all day long. That's the only way I can understand how you aren't piling in and consolidating around a target you didn't declare for. Because you can. The charge move has to stop >1" away, but pile in doesn't. Consolidate doesn't. That's why you strike at the seams of these screens. Can't take casualties from a unit that never took damage, and you don't take morale losses from a unit that didn't take damage. You've now locked that unit down and stopped that army from gaining more board control than you.

I'll keep this incredibly enlightening advice in mind next time I assault with the Carnifex that actually made it to assault after getting shot all the way up the board.

**peteralmo**

HMint wrote:
You are all arguing about how hard it is to take a hostage, but do you feel like the way the rules require this and how it is implemented is fine?

GW was all about streamlining the game, but then in the fight phase there are multiple movements during the phase for each unit involved and for each movement you have to carefully measure the distance for every single individual model to every surrounding model.
And all those measurements typically are in the '0.1 of an inch' range, making them super cumbersome.

How is that streamlined? 2nd edition 1v1 fights were more streamlined than this.

By it's very nature hand to hand combat is complex. I don't see how streamlining it further wouldn't greatly diminish any immersive or cinematic value it offered.

**mchammadad**

Ice_can wrote:
mchammadad wrote:

...which is exactly why several of us have suggested that when a unit falls back, the other unit gets to attack them but not pile in or consolidate.

Also, how else do you propose melee units get into position other than walking? They can’t deep strike turn 1 any more, if they deep strike turn 2 their opponent has had 1-2 movement phases to spread their screens out so they’re going to struggle to close with their real targets, which leaves transports. These generally aren’t fantastic either since a skilled player with a gun line will focus down the transports first, killing 1/6 of the unit inside, potentially scattering mortal wounds about and forcing the units inside to walk anyway. It’s all well and good to say ‘well, if they’re shooting your transports they’re not shooting your other (ranged) units’, but a good player will realise that the shooting elements of your combined arms force can’t cripple their gunline in one or two turns.

I run Mono khorne daemons, 60% of my army is 6" movement and we get no transports at all, we are only foot slogging.

You obviously don't know how combat or wound allocation works in this edition. Because it is almost impossible to stop your opponent from falling back, even if you surround them from two sides, falling back can still happen if you have only 1 or two models, even if their surrounded.

Take a classic box hostage marneuver, since pile in and consolidate are optional lets say Unit 1, which is in the front and one side of enemy unit 1 is supported by unit 2 who is behind enemy unit 1, completing a box in. If enemy unit one only has 1 or 2 units left after both units fought then they can still fall back to the center of the box, depending on how many models unit 1 destroyed. It is insane to think that a one model unit that was given say an auto pass or something could just walk slightly into the center of all of the units and count as not being in CC. And then everything around them shoots everything and wipes out unit 1 and 2.

This is possible, very unlikely but still possible.

Fall back as a mechanic is crazy strong. Just giving units the ability to disengage from a melee unit immiediately invalidates that melee unit, making them open to any form of counterattack without any chance of retaliation, there is a reason why units that hinder or prevent falling back this edition are considered the most powerful melee units (Wyches,Fiends of Slanesh, Skarbrand)

Fall back will never be removed as a mechanic, it is too powerful not to be used. I agree that pile in and consolidate on the strike back might sound powerful, but remember that this is the movement phase for all the players units. If you dont want to get charged then bloody advance your asses out of the consolidation. Again tactics people.

This idea of a free strike phase if they fall back actually sounds rather good, because people actually have to decide do they risk keeping units next to the unit that is falling back? or do they fall back now and try and get them in the shooting phase. The fact that people forget that this is happening in the PLAYERS MOVEMENT is mind boggling, If i didn't want my non chaft units to get chopped up, i would move them FIRST before i fell back with the chaff unit. Cause in reality a melee army at most can probably only move 3" cause pile in and consolidate is weird.

I don't have a rule book to check but I'm fairly sure you can't advance when falling back, though so far it's never been soemthing that I've need to be 100% sure of.

I dont have a problem with the attack part its the additional movement of pile in and consolidat allowing you to negate fallingback I object too.

Bezerkers are really powerful becuase of the ability of their fight twice ability and using it to cover a lot of ground in the fight phase.
I think I've managed to squeeze about 8 inchs out of them before as you do have to zig zag abit.

When i talk about the advance, im talkijng about the units that are not engaged in melee, the non "chaff" units that move first

**Daedalus81**

SHUPPET wrote:
Lemondish wrote:

Clearly the bad decisions you guys are making here is that you're declaring multi charges all day long. That's the only way I can understand how you aren't piling in and consolidating around a target you didn't declare for. Because you can. The charge move has to stop >1" away, but pile in doesn't. Consolidate doesn't. That's why you strike at the seams of these screens. Can't take casualties from a unit that never took damage, and you don't take morale losses from a unit that didn't take damage. You've now locked that unit down and stopped that army from gaining more board control than you.

I'll keep this incredibly enlightening advice in mind next time I assault with the Carnifex that actually made it to assault after getting shot all the way up the board.

.

Is the fex the only model you have running up?